GORE-TEX overrated and overpriced?
Glen Fergus
squeezing...
I've owned three of these things (including an original Mark-1 leaker), and
I've never been totally happy with any of them.
Fact is, this stuff is heavy to carry, and stiff and uncomfortable to wear.
It may be waterproof, but it's not really particularly breathable -
certainly not once the fabric is soaked, which happens after about an hour
in real conditions. That's regardless of when the (overrated and
overpriced?) water repellent coating was last re-applied.
Nor is this stuff really particularly durable (peeling seam tape, membrane
pinholes). And it's nylon, which absorbs about 30% by weight water, making
it even heavier once it's wet.
What experience is there with the alternatives - ie the hydrophilic membrane
type coatings, a couple of which are now available in 3-ply laminates, at
least one of them polyester? And what of the (lighter, softer) 2-ply
Gore-tex, which is almost universal in the US, but hardly used here?
Glen F.
Mylorace
have
tried several garments with Gore Tex, and they all leak, to a lesser or
greater degree,
when I have complained the Gore PR dept have even told me I am wearing the
wrong
garments under my suit ot jacket, sooner or later we will have that 100%
waterproof jacket
but not yet , i'm sorry to say
Mylo.
Dylan Sutton
>
> Well is it??
That just depends on your criteria. It is of course not perfect, and is
very expensive. But it just happens to be the best compromise available,
and they know it, and we know it, so they get away with charging for it.
If someone else came up with something better, do you believe for a
second that they wouldn't sell it, and at a higher price still than
goretex? Really, people have to get used to the limits of physics and
chemistry, and the principles of economics.
Just how many fabrics are there which are at once stronger, lighter,
less bulky, more supple, more abrasion resistant and more hydrophobic
(ie less water absorbent) than nylon?
How many such fabrics can then have an even more water repellent coating
sprayed on, which then won't rub off with friction from your
pack/arms/trees? (BTW, the horrendously expensive "ReviveX" seems to do
it's job well, in LOW FRICTION areas of the jacket. As usual, the
disappointment that it is not magic is there, but my jacket is better
than it was).
How many lightweight non-permeable, breathable membranes are there which
can be made thin enough to incorporate in clothing, and will still
withstand tensile stresses, frequently repeated flexion (ie. fatigue)
and puncture? And how can one get such an ideally non-sticky breathable
membrane to adhere to the outer shell fabric without diminishing the
breathability or increasing the weight? (And yes, I'm aware that
hydrophobic attracts hydrophobic, but only under certain conditions [ie.
allowing for van der waals interactions] which from my limited knowledge
of polymer chemistry would seem to also severely diminish the
strength:weight ratio and durability due to the need for exposed long
chain [or aromatic] hydrocarbons which can interact from both sides of
the bond. Converting this to a covalent linkage would still be a BIG
problem. The other approach using fluorinated polymers [ie teflon]
produces something which doesn't even stick to itself, which makes it
extremely difficult to find glues to make it stick to anything else)
Lastly, how can we really expect a water impermeable garment to be
breathable enough to cope with the large amounts of sweat produced
during high activity? Go for a jog buck-naked and you'll still have a
sewaty back, though you can't get any more breathable clothing than your
birthday suit! To expect a rainjacket to still let all your sweat out
even when it's wet on the outside simply defies thermodynamics, though
of course not wishful thinking, including my own!;)
Dylan
Mark Fowler
using I can only commend Dylan's remarks to other readers. I have had 4
Gore-Tex Jackets which have generally worked quite well. The best to date
was a North Face two ply taffeta jacket lined with taffeta. (taffeta is
plain generally light weight nylon cloth like many sleeping bag fabrics).
It drapes well, isn't noisy and while not as waterproof as it used to be is
about 15 years old and is still adequate for cycling and travelling. I
recently purchased another lined two ply jacket from Paddy's which has not
yet been put to the test but I expect similar results.
Certainly two ply Gore-Tex will be more permeable because there is only one
side of the fabric with adhesive dots on it. I doubt they can line up the
dots when laminating to the other side so increasing the impermeable area.
Mark Fowler
Glen Fergus wrote in message <784358$itq$1...@eplet.mira.net.au>...
Stephen & Catherine Grenfell
I have owned Paddy Pallin Vista Gore-Tex jacket and pants for the last three
years and have found it to be totally waterproof. I have walks at the
Budawangs where it has rained for a week and never leaked. Yes in warmer
temperature you will sweat but you are wearing a jacket after all. On one
trip was struck on the leg by a Red Belly but it failed to pierce the fabric
luckily. May be you should just by a nylon raincoat from Woolworth's as they
are cheap.
Cheers Stephen
gd
conditions a year or two back (my first real test !!). My fellow
walkers had "lesser" materials for their outer garments. By the middle
of the day they were extremely wet, cold and approaching hypothermia.
In short, it was an extremely miserable outing for them.
Yes, Gore-Tex is expensive and probably a little overrated - but I
don't know anything else that comes close to it when you really need
to be kept dry !!
Anthony Dunk
about 7 years and have
never had any complaints about it. It has kept me dry while I walked all-day
torrential downpour on the
overland track in Tasmania, and kept me dry cycling on the south island of New
Zealand for numerous
days in the rain... I'm continually amazed at how good this stuff is compared
to other raincoats I've
owned in the past.
As for weight - I don't find it a problem. My jacket packs into a nice small
size and usually lives in the
bottom of my pack until it rains.
I have heard of other people's gore-tex jackets leaking and the pores becoming
clogged after some
years of use (of course this depends how often you wear it). I have not
experienced this myself so
I suspect that some manufacturers are using inferior grades of gore-tex or do
not style their
garments correctly to keep the rain out....
Regards,
Anthony.
PS. I have no financial interest in gore-tex, I just think it happens to be a
good thing.
Glen Fergus wrote:
> Well is it?? This mob's got the market by the throat, and they're still
> squeezing...
>
> I've owned three of these things (including an original Mark-1 leaker), and
> I've never been totally happy with any of them.
>
> Fact is, this stuff is heavy to carry, and stiff and uncomfortable to wear.
> It may be waterproof, but it's not really particularly breathable -
> certainly not once the fabric is soaked, which happens after about an hour
> in real conditions. That's regardless of when the (overrated and
> overpriced?) water repellent coating was last re-applied.
>
> Nor is this stuff really particularly durable (peeling seam tape, membrane
> pinholes). And it's nylon, which absorbs about 30% by weight water, making
> it even heavier once it's wet.
>
> What experience is there with the alternatives - ie the hydrophilic membrane
> type coatings, a couple of which are now available in 3-ply laminates, at
> least one of them polyester? And what of the (lighter, softer) 2-ply
> Gore-tex, which is almost universal in the US, but hardly used here?
>
> Glen F.
--
Anthony Dunk
Sydney, Australia
anth...@rocketmail.com
David Noble
(Padyy Pallin brand) was fairly basic in design and has lasted well (it
was second generation) - then I read somewhere that after a few years it
is a good idea to wash it - so I did - and then found that some of the
tape sealing up the seals came off (but the jacket was over ten years
old and well used in Tassie and NZ etc plus ski touring - I don't use a
Goretex jacket in the Blue Mts of course!). Sometime later I bought a
Paddy Pallin gortex anorak for ski touing and found it excellent in
design, performance and functionality - but after two or three years the
Gortex started to de-laminate. I took it back and was able to get a free
relacemement anorak (unfortunately the replacement is a fair bit heavier
and bulkier - but it does seem a very good jacket)
Now - one time stormbound in a hut in NZ, I read a magazine that a
Scottish gent had, and one article was about fabrics for parkas. It
compared Gortex with a new fabric called (I think) Triplepoint Ceramic
(manufactured by North Cape (or was it North Face?) and a Japanese
company. Accoring to their reviews it performed better than Gortex in
warm, humid conditions and Gortex was better in dry/cold. Since then
(1994?) I have heard nothing about this fabic. Does any gear freak out
there know any more about it? Is it any good etc...
Dave Noble
--
--------------------------
David Noble
dno...@ozemail.com.au
http://www.ozemail.com.au/~dnoble/
Roger Caffin
> I have heard of other people's gore-tex jackets leaking and the pores
becoming
> clogged after some
> years of use (of course this depends how often you wear it). I have not
> experienced this myself so
> I suspect that some manufacturers are using inferior grades of gore-tex
or do
> not style their garments correctly to keep the rain out....
"Inferior" grades simply do not exist. Only made by Gore.
Goretex jackets CAN leak when the membrane gets punctured after far too
much scrub bashing through spikes etc. If you wear your Goretex jacket as
armour in scrub, you are effectively letting it cop the damage rather than
your hide. OK, fine, but don't complain afterwards. Anthony has obviously
looked after his jacket properly.
"Clogged pores" translates into "dirty" and not looked after. Same
comments. Read the label, and wash as directed, and maintain the DWR. Do
you look after your car and service it regularly?
A lot of this waffle is derived from the days when we all wore oiled
Japara. You could mistreat that stuff and it would self-heal, sort of. My
memory of it was that it was never that waterproof anyhow! Mind you, the
extremely high price Gore charge for their fabric *may* have something to
do with it. But other good fabrics do exist on the market now, as
waterproof and just about as breathable.
Cheers, Roger
--
Roger Caffin (Dr)
Director
Berrilee Consulting Services P/L
5 Charltons Ck Rd
Berrilee NSW 2159
Australia
All the usual disclaimers apply....
Mark and Janet
See URL http://www.lowealpine.com/site/home/home_frm.htm
David Noble wrote in message <36A86C2A...@ozemail.com.au>...
Ken Fraser
My first Gore-Tex was a Mont Tempest.
It only lasted about 5 years and was very disappointed with it.
My problem with it is that I sent the jacket to GORE in Australia for testing
and they said it was fair wear and tear, and not a problem with manufacturing.
Gore said that the Tempest was made before the guarantee 'to keep you dry",
and couldn't help me.
I should of let the shop I bought it off send it back to Gore.
The seam sealing was coming adrift and from day one it developed a mold.
No matter how I looked after it, the jacket was useless.
It didn't work like Gore-Tex was supposed to and did let in water.
A lot of money for a white elephant.
I have since spent up big and bought a WE Gore-Tex jacket.
The WE gore-tex is supposed to be the best fabric, according to WE.
I'm letting the shop look after it for me so there will be no arguments about
warranty.
Roger Caffin
> is a good idea to wash it - so I did - and then found that some of the
> tape sealing up the seals came off (but the jacket was over ten years
> Now - one time stormbound in a hut in NZ, I read a magazine that a
> Scottish gent had, and one article was about fabrics for parkas. It
> compared Gortex with a new fabric called (I think) Triplepoint Ceramic
> (manufactured by North Cape (or was it North Face?) and a Japanese
> company. Accoring to their reviews it performed better than Gortex in
> warm, humid conditions and Gortex was better in dry/cold. Since then
> (1994?) I have heard nothing about this fabic. Does any gear freak out
> there know any more about it? Is it any good etc...
Triplepoint Ceramic is a three layer polyurethane laminate with fine
ceramic particles suspended in the membrane material. It is used by North
Face for their gear. The particles are so fine the liquid water can't get
through, but water vapour is supposed to pour through. I don't have the
actual figures to hand, but it is meant to match Goretex. It has not been
used in Australia until recently (good Gore marketing?). However, Mountain
Designs now make a Stormcloud jacket out of a material which they call
"Repel Suppla-rib", but which is actually this Triplepoint Ceramic. Why
they should create their own totally unknown name rather than use one which
is internationally known is a mystery, but never mind. Key points: the
material is cheaper than Goretex, buyt weighs about the same. It's a nice
fabric witha soft feel.
Glen Fergus
bought a non-Gore jacket (shock!, gasp!, horror!).
This thing's from Wilderness Wear (Aus), in Microlite, a "hydrophilic
microporous polyurenthane" proofed polyester three-ply laminate. It looks
like a basically well designed and made Aus-style longish jacket, with hot
taped seams, a smallish hood and an impressive-looking quadruple storm flap
closure (velcro though - yuck).
It's at least 100g lighter than an equivalent Gore jacket, and $100 cheaper,
and in comfortable and non-water absorbing polyester.
Yeah, but does it work? Watch this space...
Bron
I bought a pair of Chamaeleon overpants (also made of polyester) several
years ago, they seemed a good compromise between expensive Goretex and
cheap nylon. I have discovered they are not nearly as durable as nylon,
I have ripped them in all sorts of places. Mostly from srubb-bashing
which I agree, I should have worn the nylons, but also from skiing.
If theres the remotest chance of doing any srcrub bashing its definitely
worth patching the old nylons again.
Bronwyn Davey