More Google Maps Mashupy Goodness...
Jules
First, a quick spiel from the homepage:
"Put very simply, Bikely helps cyclists share knowledge of good bicycle
routes.
It can be quite tricky traversing a car dominated city such as Melbourne
on a bike, particularly when you need to travel an unknown route to a
new destination.
But the chances are, someone has cycled that way before you. Bikely
makes it easy for him or her to show you the best way.
"
A few notes;
This is a really early release. It may work. It may not work at all (I
think it's broken in Opera ATM + I don't have any Macs to test on). It
may do strange things that you don't expect. In IE6 and Firefox 1.5 it
seems to work!
Please let me know of any broken things you find. In this thread will
do for now - I'll setup a feedback/bugs email address soon.
The usefulness of this idea is of course entirely dependent on how many
bike routes we get into the database over time. If this attracts a
sufficient following and we build a comprehensive network of bike paths,
then I'll be glad to throw more development time into the project and
add the necessary searching facilities and whatever other web2.0ey stuff
that makes people feel warm and fuzzy.
Anyway.. for now, enjoy and let me know what your first impressions are.
Cheers,
Jules
peterlip
commute, and it's starting to get a little slow. I'm at about 70
points.
Any chance of a elevation graph like the GMap Pedometer site?
--
peterlip
dave
> As promised a few days ago... I present: "Bikely"
>
> http://www.bikely.com/
>
> First, a quick spiel from the homepage:
>
> "Put very simply, Bikely helps cyclists share knowledge of good bicycle
> routes.
>
> It can be quite tricky traversing a car dominated city such as Melbourne
> on a bike, particularly when you need to travel an unknown route to a
> new destination.
>
> But the chances are, someone has cycled that way before you. Bikely
> makes it easy for him or her to show you the best way.
> "
>
> A few notes;
> This is a really early release. It may work. It may not work at all (I
> think it's broken in Opera ATM + I don't have any Macs to test on). It
> may do strange things that you don't expect. In IE6 and Firefox 1.5 it
> seems to work!
Hmmmm I have some Macs at work. Remind me and I will test it for you.
THey have Safari and Firefox on em.
>
Damian
I've been thinking about doing a text based site like this for a while.
When Google released their maps for Aus on Friday I started work on
something like this, but didn't get a lot of time to throw at it.
You've done a great job, it's probably best if I put my time into
adding routes to yours than building another one :)
I found the process of adding a map and saving it required a little
guess work (I lost one map in the proces). Perhaps down the left hand
side you could put some really simple instructions. I also missed the
"Name this route" and Save button the first time around.
Looks great though.
What platform have you built it on ? ( I'm guessing Rails).
I have a couple of ideas for features I was going to add, email me if
you'd like to hear them.
Love your work
Damian (1 route added)
JHJ
>Anyway.. for now, enjoy and let me know what your first impressions are.
>
>Cheers,
> Jules
Nice enough, but after trying several times to 'join' I kept getting a
username and password don't match, even with cookies. Makes it a rather
worthless page.
Jules
through my
> commute, and it's starting to get a little slow. I'm at about 70
> points.
Yeah it does get slow unfortunately. Not sure if there's much I can do
about that, as it relies mostly on Googles API for the grunt work.
Are you using firefox? I've found that in Firefox the red line
(generated by Google's API) is actually a PNG refreshed on every change
(!!) I was slightly horrified to discover that this is how they
implemented it. In IE it uses the MS VML stuff to generate vectors on
the fly, which is obviously much much faster.
So, grudgingly, I use IE to author paths ;-(
> Any chance of a elevation graph like the GMap Pedometer site?
In time ;-) I've found the data source, so it can certainly be done
reasonably easily.
Jules
> I've been thinking about doing a text based site like this for a while.
> When Google released their maps for Aus on Friday I started work on
> something like this, but didn't get a lot of time to throw at it.
> You've done a great job, it's probably best if I put my time into
> adding routes to yours than building another one :)
Heh.. I spent about 4 days flat out on it. Need a little break from it
now ;-)
> I found the process of adding a map and saving it required a little
> guess work (I lost one map in the proces). Perhaps down the left hand
> side you could put some really simple instructions. I also missed the
> "Name this route" and Save button the first time around.
Yeah... Definitely needs refinements. There are instructions down the
LHS.. too brief you reckon?
> What platform have you built it on ? ( I'm guessing Rails).
PHP actually.. on a custom framework I've used for a few projects.
> I have a couple of ideas for features I was going to add, email me if
> you'd like to hear them.
Will do.
Cheers,
Jules
Jules
> username and password don't match, even with cookies. Makes it a rather
> worthless page.
>
Hmmm this is a bit odd. Let's try to sort it out.
Did you successfully register an account, but couldn't log in? Or did
the registration process fail you?
What username did you (try to) register?
Cheers,
Jules
Damian
Jules wrote:
> Are you using firefox? I've found that in Firefox the red line
> (generated by Google's API) is actually a PNG refreshed on every change
> (!!) I was slightly horrified to discover that this is how they
> implemented it. In IE it uses the MS VML stuff to generate vectors on
> the fly, which is obviously much much faster.
I don't know if you've read the history / updates page on the gmap
pedometer site, but he added an optimisation for longer routes that
only renders the points in the current view. Might be worth a look
into.
I used FF for the route I added, it worked fine for me.
Damian
Stuart Lamble
> As promised a few days ago... I present: "Bikely"
>
> http://www.bikely.com/
Not bad. Any chance you could modify it so it doesn't need cookies? eg:
a session number in the URL if cookies are disabled. (I habitually click
"deny" whenever I'm asked to allow cookies. I also have Flash disabled
as a matter of course, but that's beside the point. :-)
> This is a really early release. It may work. It may not work at all (I
> think it's broken in Opera ATM + I don't have any Macs to test on). It
I'll do some testing in Safari shortly.
--
My Usenet From: address now expires after two weeks. If you email me, and
the mail bounces, try changing the bit before the "@" to "usenet".
ghostgum
Jules Wrote:
>
> Yeah... Definitely needs refinements. There are instructions down the
> LHS.. too brief you reckon?
>
notice the title and save button at the top. For a first time user, a
detailed click by click explanation would be good. The instructions
down the left are good for reminding you what to do.
When finished enter "Name this route" and "Save".
Good work. I've added my commute.
--
ghostgum
Stuart Lamble
> On 2006-05-23, Jules <sdf...@example.com> wrote:
>
> I'll do some testing in Safari shortly.
It seems to work ok in Safari, just one small point: after logging in,
it seems to go to a completely blank screen. (this may or may not be
because I'm going through a Privoxy proxy, rather than an ordinary
everyday standard Squid proxy, though.) Going back to the main page and
then working from there works around the problem.
flyingdutch
rockin Jules!!! Ler ya werk :D
Works fine in OSX10.4 Safari for me (and Firefox too)
PS can you contact me ? may have some paying work for you with this
stuff?
f dutch at gmail.com
--
flyingdutch
Jules
> it seems to go to a completely blank screen. (this may or may not be
> because I'm going through a Privoxy proxy, rather than an ordinary
> everyday standard Squid proxy, though.) Going back to the main page and
> then working from there works around the problem.
Any way you could try it without the proxy? I suspect you might be
right ;-) I'm pretty sure my 301's are compliant...
Re: cookies - I don't put session ids in URLs. Too ugly, and crap from
a security standpoint. Whose afraid of a little cookie, anyway ;-) It
expires at the end of the browser session.
Damian
Jules wrote:
>
> Re: cookies - I don't put session ids in URLs. Too ugly, and crap from
> a security standpoint. Whose afraid of a little cookie, anyway ;-) It
> expires at the end of the browser session.
Don't forget you are posting to a group full of tinfoil hat wearing
emacs users ;)
(ducks, rides away)
gplama
Jules Wrote:
> Anyway.. for now, enjoy and let me know what your first impressions
> are.
>
> Cheers,
> Jules
Kick-ACE!!!
--
gplama
Stuart Lamble
I resent that remark! I use vi, thank you very much!
:-)
Bean Long
> Anyway.. for now, enjoy and let me know what your first impressions are.
Nice one Jules. I tried to add a route but there was a script error
half-way through which seemed to make the whole route disappear. I'm
using IE 6.
I'll give it another go when I get a chance. Love the idea.
Cheers,
--
Bean
Remove "yourfinger" before replying
Stuart Lamble
>> It seems to work ok in Safari, just one small point: after logging in,
>> it seems to go to a completely blank screen. (this may or may not be
>> because I'm going through a Privoxy proxy, rather than an ordinary
>> everyday standard Squid proxy, though.) Going back to the main page and
>> then working from there works around the problem.
>
> Any way you could try it without the proxy? I suspect you might be
> right ;-) I'm pretty sure my 301's are compliant...
I can't remove proxies completely, but going through a straight Squid
proxy gave me the exact same result: blank page. I've tried two
different proxies, with no change in the result.
Actually ... a quick test with Firefox on Windows (*spit*) ... guess
what? Same result again. Blank screen at http://www.bikely.com/login ...
it's going through the same proxy as my Mac.
> Re: cookies - I don't put session ids in URLs. Too ugly, and crap from
> a security standpoint.
Bollocks. If somebody's sniffing the network, they'll see the cookie
information. If they're not sniffing the network, they're rather
unlikely to be able to track the session ID from the URL. Cookies are no
more, and no less, secure than putting that stuff in the URL. As for the
ugly - meh, care factor zero from my point of view. :)
> Whose afraid of a little cookie, anyway ;-) It
> expires at the end of the browser session.
Maybe so; the point I'm making is that I reflexively deny cookies to any
website that asks, unless there is a very good reason for doing
otherwise. Call me paranoid if you must, but that's the way I tend to
use my web browser. Graceful degradation is how it should work; if
you're relying upon the client to give you complete and accurate
information, you're heading for a security problem down the road.
*Anything* and *everything* that comes from the client should be
considered suspect until otherwise verified.
Jules
> information. If they're not sniffing the network, they're rather
> unlikely to be able to track the session ID from the URL. Cookies are no
> more, and no less, secure than putting that stuff in the URL. As for the
> ugly - meh, care factor zero from my point of view. :)
With all due respect: "Bollocks". This isn't about someone sniffing a
network. Let's imagine you post a 3rd party URL on a forum that uses
session IDs in the URL. Someone clicks on the URL, and straight away
your session ID has been leaked in the referrer log.
Or you want to share a Bikely link with someone (or, say, aus.bicycle),
so you copy+paste the URL, including your session ID, which is now public.
Elementary stuff, and easily exploited.
> Maybe so; the point I'm making is that I reflexively deny cookies to any
> website that asks, unless there is a very good reason for doing
> otherwise. Call me paranoid if you must, but that's the way I tend to
> use my web browser. Graceful degradation is how it should work; if
> you're relying upon the client to give you complete and accurate
> information, you're heading for a security problem down the road.
> *Anything* and *everything* that comes from the client should be
> considered suspect until otherwise verified.
You _are_ paranoid!
And I have no doubt that many sites fail to work for you, and by now you
probably expect this behavior. It's your call. Cookies are the
prescribed way to managing session state in HTTP, not URLs. If you
don't want to accept sessions, that's fine.
Jules
> half-way through which seemed to make the whole route disappear. I'm
> using IE 6.
>
> I'll give it another go when I get a chance. Love the idea.
Ahh fun fun. If you can reproduce it easily, let me know how to do so,
so I can squash it. I imagine it might have involved stepping back and
forth between points. There's some hairy late nite code in there ;-)
Stuart Lamble
>> information. If they're not sniffing the network, they're rather
>> unlikely to be able to track the session ID from the URL. Cookies are no
>> more, and no less, secure than putting that stuff in the URL. As for the
>> ugly - meh, care factor zero from my point of view. :)
>
> With all due respect: "Bollocks". This isn't about someone sniffing a
> network. Let's imagine you post a 3rd party URL on a forum that uses
> session IDs in the URL. Someone clicks on the URL, and straight away
> your session ID has been leaked in the referrer log.
I'll grant that's not something I had considered. Easily fixed from your
perspective, though: lock the session to the IP it came from.
> Or you want to share a Bikely link with someone (or, say, aus.bicycle),
> so you copy+paste the URL, including your session ID, which is now public.
>
> Elementary stuff, and easily exploited.
And easily dealt with from your point of view, too. Otherwise, what's to
stop me from forging my cookies until I can find some random session to
hijack? Not a critical issue in this case, but there are other cases
where it could be well worth the effort.
> You _are_ paranoid!
*shrug* It's not paranoia if you *know* they're out to get you. :)
> And I have no doubt that many sites fail to work for you, and by now you
> probably expect this behavior. It's your call. Cookies are the
> prescribed way to managing session state in HTTP, not URLs. If you
> don't want to accept sessions, that's fine.
The odds are excellent that a given site wants to establish session
state without good reason. For instance, if I'm looking at a website to
find out information (eg: prices of goods that I might want to buy), and
I can't do so without logging in, I'm moving on.
Jules
> perspective, though: lock the session to the IP it came from.
You don't develop web applications, do you? ;-)
Most large scale ISPs have a proxy that routes through multiple IPs
varying from request to request. I'd be surprised if Monash didn't, in
fact. Certainly AOL, C&W, Verizon etc all do. IP-based is simply not
an option, and certainly nothing in the HTTP spec suggests that you
can/should rely on this.
> And easily dealt with from your point of view, too. Otherwise, what's to
> stop me from forging my cookies until I can find some random session to
> hijack? Not a critical issue in this case, but there are other cases
> where it could be well worth the effort.
Well you've got 16^32 options to try, so I'd best let you get on with
it, it could take a while!
> The odds are excellent that a given site wants to establish session
> state without good reason. For instance, if I'm looking at a website to
> find out information (eg: prices of goods that I might want to buy), and
> I can't do so without logging in, I'm moving on.
Bikely is perfectly usable without logging in. If you want to log in
(i.e. establish a session with my server) then you need to accept the
cookie.
I agree, though, that sites which do not allow browsing without
accepting cookies are very poorly designed. You'd think they'd realise
it, too, when they never make it into the search engines (whose crawlers
do not accept cookies)
Jules
Jules
field was left blank, as well as a login issue that probably caused the
blank pages that Stuart was seeing.
slaw
Excellent work, Jules.
How about a search facility where you could type in a suburb or list of
suburbs to find routes through them.
--
slaw
eddiec
v. noice!!
Just added in my route - too easy!!
good stuff y'legend...
--
eddiec
Bean Long
Got it again after creating point #72 (about the same as last time). I
had also left the computer to do other things for a while, but didn't
think this was an issue. This time I didn't abort the script like I did
last time and I can add points one at a time now with the error
appearing after addition of each point.
Stuart Lamble
> varying from request to request. I'd be surprised if Monash didn't, in
> fact. Certainly AOL, C&W, Verizon etc all do. IP-based is simply not
> an option, and certainly nothing in the HTTP spec suggests that you
> can/should rely on this.
X-Forwarded-For, I think, is the header you should be looking at. That,
combined with the IP address of the proxy, should be more than enough.
It's not about being 100% accurate; it's about making it that little bit
harder to hijack the session.
What it boils down to is that the HTTP spec was never designed to be
stateful. *Anything* that tries to add state to HTTP is going to have
cases where it breaks.
>> And easily dealt with from your point of view, too. Otherwise, what's to
>> stop me from forging my cookies until I can find some random session to
>> hijack? Not a critical issue in this case, but there are other cases
>> where it could be well worth the effort.
>
> Well you've got 16^32 options to try, so I'd best let you get on with
> it, it could take a while!
Depends on the quality of the random number generator. If it's poorly
designed, it may well be that the number of options is no more than a
couple of thousand.
> Bikely is perfectly usable without logging in. If you want to log in
> (i.e. establish a session with my server) then you need to accept the
> cookie.
Granted, although that wasn't my main thrust (to be fair, I'll grant
that I didn't make that clear.)
> I agree, though, that sites which do not allow browsing without
> accepting cookies are very poorly designed.
I'd use the word "broken". :-)
As for the blank page after login -- it's working just fine now.
Terry Collins
> Anyway.. for now, enjoy and let me know what your first impressions are.
noice.
Problems;
1) I keep getting thrown back to the map of Australia. This might be
something to do with timeouts because another boxen is mega leeching atm
{:-).
2) Entered a route (14 points), then went to name it and when I pressed
save,it said I wasn't logged in.
Stuart Lamble
> field was left blank, as well as a login issue that probably caused the
> blank pages that Stuart was seeing.
As I've already said, you seem to have resolved that one nicely.
Now I seem to have another issue: going through a route using Camino, I
only seem to be able to access the first and last waypoints. Oh ... I
see - it only shows the waypoints that have comments attached. A bit of
documentation about this might ease a bit of confusion. :-)
There's also an issue with navigation on the map pages -- it's not clear
how to go back to a list of routes or the main page. Yes, I know you
click on the Bikely logo on the top left corner, but that isn't obvious
at first glance.
Don't get me wrong, though, it's a very nice start. Fix the cookie
issue, and I'll happily sing its praises over the world. :-)
Jules
That's definitely priority number one!
Just wanted to get a database of routes before I did it. Got no more
excuses, now ;-)
Jules
happy to oblige you. On this issue you are simply mistaken.
> X-Forwarded-For, I think, is the header you should be looking at. That,
> combined with the IP address of the proxy, should be more than enough.
> It's not about being 100% accurate; it's about making it that little bit
> harder to hijack the session.
X-Forwarded-for is a non-standard extension to HTTP. Being an HTTP
header, it's of course just as easily forged as a cookie or referrer.
i.e. it's completely useless.
By locking to IP addresses, the application will break for a number of
people far greater than the number of paranoid types who - despite a
warning that they will not be able to access the application - choose to
reject session cookies.
> What it boils down to is that the HTTP spec was never designed to be
> stateful. *Anything* that tries to add state to HTTP is going to have
> cases where it breaks.
Which is why I use what the standards body describes:
http://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc2109/rfc2109
> Depends on the quality of the random number generator. If it's poorly
> designed, it may well be that the number of options is no more than a
> couple of thousand.
So now you're criticising random number generation? You've got a real
knack for off-topic!
> Granted, although that wasn't my main thrust (to be fair, I'll grant
> that I didn't make that clear.)
I still don't know what your "main thrust" is? That all web
applications are inherently flawed and we should stick to static white
pages with Times Roman?
If you disable JavaScript, you can't use Bikely. If you think
new-fangled CSS is a bit rich, you can't use it. If you reject session
cookies, you can't create routes. These are system requirements, deal
with it.
Jules
> had also left the computer to do other things for a while, but didn't
> think this was an issue. This time I didn't abort the script like I did
> last time and I can add points one at a time now with the error
> appearing after addition of each point.
>
Hmm I was trying to replicate this in IE... and after point 28 it
crashed my whole PC... nice ;-)
Stuart Lamble
> happy to oblige you. On this issue you are simply mistaken.
Maybe I'm fighting a battle that's already lost, but damnit, I'm a
techie, and I'm a very strong believer in doing things properly. I'm not
saying that you have to design things so that they'll work in any web
browser that might come along -- it's clearly impossible to display
mapping data in Lynx, for example -- just that they should degrade
gracefully where this is possible.
> X-Forwarded-for is a non-standard extension to HTTP. Being an HTTP
> header, it's of course just as easily forged as a cookie or referrer.
> i.e. it's completely useless.
Just as useless as relying upon cookies being enabled when there are
perfectly useful alternatives out there.
> By locking to IP addresses, the application will break for a number of
> people far greater than the number of paranoid types who - despite a
> warning that they will not be able to access the application - choose to
> reject session cookies.
So you lock the session to IP for those who don't have cookies enabled,
and hope that the session isn't broken into for those who do. As an
aside, I don't remember seeing a warning on the join page ...
>> What it boils down to is that the HTTP spec was never designed to be
>> stateful. *Anything* that tries to add state to HTTP is going to have
>> cases where it breaks.
>
> Which is why I use what the standards body describes:
> http://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc2109/rfc2109
"Applications should use as few and as small cookies as possible, and
they should cope gracefully with the loss of a cookie."
I don't see completely failing to function when cookies are disabled as
"graceful", especially when realistic alternatives exist.
>> Depends on the quality of the random number generator. If it's poorly
>> designed, it may well be that the number of options is no more than a
>> couple of thousand.
>
> So now you're criticising random number generation? You've got a real
> knack for off-topic!
Not at all. Your argument for not embedding the session handle in the
URL in the case of cookies being disabled is related to security. I'm
pointing out that if that's of such concern to you, then the random
number generator used to generate the session ID needs to be a good one
- if it's it's not, then all security issues go right out the window
before you even start.
>> Granted, although that wasn't my main thrust (to be fair, I'll grant
>> that I didn't make that clear.)
>
> I still don't know what your "main thrust" is? That all web
> applications are inherently flawed and we should stick to static white
> pages with Times Roman?
No. That if you require particular aspects of web browsers to be
enabled, when alternatives do exist and are easy to implement, your
design does not degrade gracefully. I have no issue per se with saying
"you must have JavaScript and CSS enabled to use this app" when there is
no alternative for the functionality in question. I *do* have an issue
with "You must have cookies enabled to use this application".
> If you reject session
> cookies, you can't create routes. These are system requirements, deal
> with it.
*Artificial* requirements in the case of session cookies. The rest, as I
said, I can understand and accept to an extent.
Jules
> Jules wrote:
>> As promised a few days ago... I present: "Bikely"
>>
>> http://www.bikely.com/
>
>> Anyway.. for now, enjoy and let me know what your first impressions are.
>
> noice.
>
> Problems;
> 1) I keep getting thrown back to the map of Australia. This might be
> something to do with timeouts because another boxen is mega leeching atm
> {:-).
Hmm.. which browser/OS? What do you do just before it throws you back?
> 2) Entered a route (14 points), then went to name it and when I pressed
> save,it said I wasn't logged in.
Does it work with a shorter route? How long did it take you to create
the route? (shouldn't be a timeout, but I'll check it)
lela.k...@gmail.com
> Yes, I know you
> click on the Bikely logo on the top left corner, but that isn't obvious
> at first glance.
It's fairly standard behaviour for most websites though, isn't it?
"Click logo to go home"?
Random Data
> it's clearly impossible to display mapping data in Lynx, for example
If Quake and Star Wars can be done in ASCII, why can't a map?
</troll>
--
Dave Hughes | da...@hired-goons.net
"There is nothing, absolutely nothing, quite so worthwhile as simply
messing about on bicycles." - Tom Kunich
flyingdutch
Jules Wrote:
> If you disable JavaScript, you can't use Bikely. If you think
> new-fangled CSS is a bit rich, you can't use it. If you reject
> session
> cookies, you can't create routes. These are system requirements, deal
> with it.
you forgot Biege! I refuse to work on anything Biege!!!
and DON'T get me started on Times Roman. grrrrrrrrrrrr
--
flyingdutch
Damian
Stuart Lamble wrote:
>
> *Artificial* requirements in the case of session cookies. The rest, as I
> said, I can understand and accept to an extent.
>
Stuart, I think you have to get over it. As Jules said, session cookies
are the standard way to maintain a state in an http application. If you
don't want to be a part of the internet in the year 2006, that's your
loss really.
Jules has obviously put a lot of effort into something for the benefit
of the community, so why not support it rather than putting shit on his
use of an industry standard technique.
There is a lot of bitching and complaining in here about cars and the
people that drive them, this is something that could encourage people
to give riding a go. It's a positive step.
It shouldn't be derailled (pun sorta intended) for the benefit of a few
paranoid crackpots.
Damian
Gemma_k
"peterlip" <peterli...@no-mx.forums.cyclingforums.com> wrote in message
news:peterli...@no-mx.forums.cyclingforums.com...
> >
> > Anyway.. for now, enjoy and let me know what your first impressions
> > are.
The chainring on the eladnonnac onthe main page is on the wrong side :-)
Peter McCallum
> Jules wrote:
> > As promised a few days ago... I present: "Bikely"
> >
> > http://www.bikely.com/
> >
> > First, a quick spiel from the homepage:
> >
> > "Put very simply, Bikely helps cyclists share knowledge of good bicycle
> > routes.
> >
> > It can be quite tricky traversing a car dominated city such as Melbourne
> > on a bike, particularly when you need to travel an unknown route to a
> > new destination.
> >
> > But the chances are, someone has cycled that way before you. Bikely
> > makes it easy for him or her to show you the best way.
> > "
> >
> > A few notes;
> > This is a really early release. It may work. It may not work at all (I
> > think it's broken in Opera ATM + I don't have any Macs to test on). It
> > may do strange things that you don't expect. In IE6 and Firefox 1.5 it
> > seems to work!
>
> Hmmmm I have some Macs at work. Remind me and I will test it for you.
> THey have Safari and Firefox on em.
> >
Works with Safari on my Mac. Fantastico!
Peter
--
Peter McCallum
Mackay Qld AUSTRALIA
bicyclemackay.org.au
Bean Long
The average seems to be 70 for me. This is an unfortunate result of the
curvy road design in Canberra... it takes a few extra points to get from
A to B to ensure the line accurately marks the route!
alison_b
>
> Anyway.. for now, enjoy and let me know what your first impressions
> are.
>
> Jules
Wow... this is great fun, thanks! Fantastic opportunity to share
knowledge and favourite rides.
*planning a home-to-Hoppers-to You-Yangs ride*
thanks,
Ali
--
alison_b
cfsmtb
alison_b Wrote:
> Wow... this is great fun, thanks! Fantastic opportunity to share
> knowledge and favourite rides.
>
> *planning a home-to-Hoppers-to You-Yangs ride*
>
> thanks,
> Ali
Great work Jules, do you want the url + details posted elsewhere for
further testing or is this still in beta mode? :)
--
cfsmtb
Stuart Lamble
> Stuart Lamble wrote:
>> *Artificial* requirements in the case of session cookies. The rest, as I
>> said, I can understand and accept to an extent.
>
> Stuart, I think you have to get over it. As Jules said, session cookies
> are the standard way to maintain a state in an http application.
They're *a* standard way. They may be more convenient than the
alternatives, but that doesn't mean that the alternatives must not, and
can not, be used.
If Julian thinks that implementing support for the alternatives would
take more time and effort than he's prepared to put in, that's his call
to make. It's not the call I would make were I in his shoes, but that's
one thing about human society: different people have different values.
> If you don't want to be a part of the internet in the year 2006,
> that's your loss really.
Take my spam -- please!
There are good things on the Internet. There are bad things on the
Internet. You obviously view design of this nature to be a good thing. I
see it as something that can be improved. I wouldn't be arguing like
this over something I didn't care about, or that I didn't believe could
be of significant use.
> Jules has obviously put a lot of effort into something for the benefit
> of the community, so why not support it rather than putting shit on his
> use of an industry standard technique.
You are completely misunderstanding where I am coming from (which is
understandable: Usenet, being a text based medium, doesn't convey a
large amount of information that is carried by tone of voice, body
position, etc.) I am saying, "This is one way in which I believe the
application can be improved." Julian's responses to my comments, I've
read as "I don't believe so."
The rest is basically two techies arguing the point. I'm perfectly happy
to argue my side via email, but I'm not willing to let things stand if I
feel that my viewpoint isn't understood. If I seem to be
over-enthusiastic about it, well, it's something I've been ranting about
for a long time. Maybe that's an indication of a lost cause, but we all
have to have *something* to do with our time, right? :)
> There is a lot of bitching and complaining in here about cars and the
> people that drive them, this is something that could encourage people
> to give riding a go. It's a positive step.
Which is something I do not, or have ever, disputed. I'll happily
contribute time putting in whatever cycling routes I'm familiar with;
documentation on anything that seems like it may be unclear for the
non-techie types; etc. Don't mistake my disagreement over this
particular point for disagreement over the entire concept.
> It shouldn't be derailled (pun sorta intended) for the benefit of a few
> paranoid crackpots.
Woohoo! I'm a paranoid crackpot! I've finally made it! :-)
And remember: just because you're paranoid, it doesn't mean they're
*not* out to get you ...
Jules
> further testing or is this still in beta mode? :)
heh... ermmm, good question.
Looking at my traffic logs right now and clearly the word is well and
truly _out_ so go ahead and tell whoever might care. I just might be
forced to add features faster than I had planned...
I hope it doesn't crash too many people's PCs... god knows mine is a lot
less stable since I started playing with this stuff.
On the upside, I've just worked around an IE bug which was causing it to
request the little point marker gif 50+ times per page ;-)
Spread the bike path love!
Jules
- Reckon lots of people just like to brag about how long their commute
is.... ;-P
Damian
> Take my spam -- please!
Cookies are spam how exactly ? You are being given a token, which
identifies you to one particular site, for the duration of that
session. Where is the harm ?
>
>
> You are completely misunderstanding where I am coming from (which is
> understandable: Usenet, being a text based medium, doesn't convey a
> large amount of information that is carried by tone of voice, body
> position, etc.) I am saying, "This is one way in which I believe the
> application can be improved." Julian's responses to my comments, I've
> read as "I don't believe so."
>
Thank you for clarifying.
> > There is a lot of bitching and complaining in here about cars and the
> > people that drive them, this is something that could encourage people
> > to give riding a go. It's a positive step.
>
> Which is something I do not, or have ever, disputed. I'll happily
> contribute time putting in whatever cycling routes I'm familiar with;
> documentation on anything that seems like it may be unclear for the
> non-techie types; etc. Don't mistake my disagreement over this
> particular point for disagreement over the entire concept.
Great, I will admit I did misunderstand you. I am personally really
excited about this, and it was upsetting to me to see it attacked on
what I see as a non-issue. At the time I posted I was witnessing (not
here) another concept being bashed by people not wanting to take part.
The two events combined to form my response.
>
> > It shouldn't be derailled (pun sorta intended) for the benefit of a few
> > paranoid crackpots.
>
> Woohoo! I'm a paranoid crackpot! I've finally made it! :-)
>
Actually, I meant to put a smiley here myself. I don't think being a
paranoid crackpot is a bad thing, I am one myself from time to time :)
Damian
DaveB
added.
DaveB
cfsmtb
Jules Wrote:
>
> - Reckon lots of people just like to brag about how long their commute
> is.... ;-P
Killer app! :D
--
cfsmtb
Stuart Lamble
>
>> Take my spam -- please!
>
> Cookies are spam how exactly ? You are being given a token, which
> identifies you to one particular site, for the duration of that
> session. Where is the harm ?
It was an off-the-cuff comment about the Internet in 2006, not about
cookies in particular. I am well aware that the two are in no way
related; I was trying to lighten the mood a little, nothing more. I
probably should have been a bit clearer, given the context and the
nature of my reply; my apologies for that.
> Great, I will admit I did misunderstand you. I am personally really
> excited about this, and it was upsetting to me to see it attacked on
> what I see as a non-issue. At the time I posted I was witnessing (not
> here) another concept being bashed by people not wanting to take part.
> The two events combined to form my response.
Understand completely. It's all too easy to get the wrong impression,
and I'll strive to correct any misunderstanding where I can, as long as
I know about it. If I don't have anything good to say about something, I
will almost always say absolutely nothing. The fact that I'm harping on
about this point says two things: (1) it's a pet peeve, and (2) I *do*
want to help make this work for people. I am not somebody who bitches
about something that is of no importance whatsoever, or that I have no
interest in (unless there is a technical reason why I'm interjecting.)
Plus there are times when a good flame war livens up an otherwise dull
day. :-)
In short: I try to either pitch in, or keep my trap shut.
I've already posted one route (look for those created by sjl), and I'm
working on another. Mutter ... Google Maps doesn't quite line up in
hybrid mode, so there are spots where it looks like the route is going
into the river. Must make a comment on the route about that. (Getting
towards 80 points, and Safari is starting to chug a little. Take that,
IE users! :)
>> > It shouldn't be derailled (pun sorta intended) for the benefit of a few
>> > paranoid crackpots.
>>
>> Woohoo! I'm a paranoid crackpot! I've finally made it! :-)
>>
> Actually, I meant to put a smiley here myself. I don't think being a
> paranoid crackpot is a bad thing, I am one myself from time to time :)
Aw. Spoilsport. And here was me thinking and hoping that you were being
serious. :)
Zebee Johnstone
One thing I immediately notice... the names of routes are mostly
useless :)
No state marker, no suburb marker.
The front page needs to have a note on each route shown giving at least
what state! Preferably what city....
Maybe require uploaders to give state, city, start suburb, end suburb?
If you go to the "see all" you get a bit more info, but only if you
recognise names, or else recognise some and not others which give you
the hint that it might be the other Epping :)
Zebee
Jules
Yep absolutely... didn't expect so many routes so quickly, I have to
admit ;-)
I'd like to be able to automate what you describe above, but the lack of
geocoding options is a problem. GMaps doesn't provide any sort of
geocoding at this stage.
In the short term, I probably will need to get people to tag their
routes by state, city.
Jules
Bean Long
Stuart Lamble
> DaveB wrote:
>> It might be good to be able to post comments about routes that have been
>> added.
>>
>> DaveB
> I'd like to go back and edit comments in... is that possible??
If it's your route, absolutely. Access the route in question, click on
the waypoint, and type away. You can also adjust the waypoint to a
different spot by clicking on where you want it to go.
I've re-named my routes to start with [MEL, Vic] for the moment, in the
absence of any guidance from On High. If anybody has a better idea ...
Jules
>> I'd like to go back and edit comments in... is that possible??
>
> If it's your route, absolutely. Access the route in question, click on
> the waypoint, and type away. You can also adjust the waypoint to a
> different spot by clicking on where you want it to go.
>
> I've re-named my routes to start with [MEL, Vic] for the moment, in the
> absence of any guidance from On High. If anybody has a better idea ...
>
See, who needs documentation? ;-)
It's all about "the community"!
The grand plans for the future include comments, photos (flickr linked
perhaps) topographical stuff and of course proper geocoding..
But do keep the suggestions coming as I'm keeping note of all of them.
BTW I just ate a thoroughly enjoyable cookie, you should try it some
time, Stu!
*runs*
Jules
Damian
Jules wrote:
> But do keep the suggestions coming as I'm keeping note of all of them.
>
OK
Here are a few from me. Ordered roughly by priority :)
* Looks like you're going to need some moderation facility :(
* A short description field. So you can enter a note about the route to
be displayed in the listing page.
* Searching by suburb (obviously you've already thought of that)
* It would be nice to have a couple of checkboxes to classify the route
to help searching in the near future. A commuting route might not make
a good training route, which probably won't be the best recreational
route to take a group of beginners on. So being able to classify a
route by what you use it for (commute, recreational, training), traffic
levels (easy, medium, hard), and terrain (Flat, Hilly, Mountainous)
would be nice to help people find a suitable ride.
* Comments have been mentioned, I'll second those. I like your idea of
flickr integration too.
* RSS feeds for new routes and site news
* Maybe add a small forum area for "Request a route". So people can ask
for advice, and another member of the community can go enter a suitable
route for them.
* Because Google doesn't provide a reverse geocoding facility to
retrieve street names from the points, if you could enter the street
name in another box where you enter the suburb, you could have a "Print
Route Sheet" function. It's hard to look at the website when you're on
the bike :)
* If you could collate a database of bikeshops, clubs, bike parking
facilities etc, you could plot them as points of interest on the map.
* Would be kinda fun to be able to overlay secondary or alternate
routes.
As a promotional idea, design a brochure and make it available as a
PDF. I'd print a bunch out and hand them to other commuters I see.
I've started promoting it already, couldn't help myself. I think you
will get some good take up of this, it's sorely needed.
Damian
flyingdutch
possible suggestions
at start, use form to capture state, suburb start/end points
on-road/off-road/combination
I'm sure there's other categories that could be captured at this stage
to make it an even more killer app. It's rockin' Jules. keep goin' :)
oh, BTW the Cannondale is flipped :D
why not a row of a whole minagery(sp?) of bikes? mtb, commuter, tourer,
recumbant, tricycle, duallie, roadie, etc? :rolleyes:
--
flyingdutch
Bleve
flyingdutch wrote:
> rockin Jules!!! Ler ya werk :D
>
> Works fine in OSX10.4 Safari for me (and Firefox too)
Dutchy, I carried my etrex around last w'end when I raced (blah ... )
at Trentham East, is there some way to add the altitude info to this
site? I'm interested in building a database or contributing to one,
of all the race courses around Melb with altitude profiles.
Jules
Oh I know.. I flipped it ;-P
> why not a row of a whole minagery(sp?) of bikes? mtb, commuter, tourer,
> recumbant, tricycle, duallie, roadie, etc? :rolleyes:
Well the logo in the top left is two wheels from a disc shod duallie
MTB.. But man this is about maps, not pictures ;-)
dtmeister
Have you looked to see if one of the many options here might do it?
http://www.gpsvisualizer.com/map?form=googleearth
or
http://www.gpsvisualizer.com/profile
--
.dt
Bleve
Jules wrote:
> As promised a few days ago... I present: "Bikely"
I've added a few of my favorite rides, nice toy :)
it struggles (or firefox does ..) when I added vermont to Bendigo, but
still works, it just took the javascript some time to work.
Bleve
dtmeister wrote:
> Bleve <carl.I...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> Have you looked to see if one of the many options here might do it?
>
> http://www.gpsvisualizer.com/map?form=googleearth
>
> or
>
> http://www.gpsvisualizer.com/profile
I'll have a play, thanks
I have ozeexplorer, which can do this sort of stuff, and google earth
can do it too, but not (easily) such that I can add it to an existing
site. I can add them to my own site, of course ... :) but then those
that come browsing will see my logo ..
PiledHigher
I want an accout too!
Jules, your obviously an IT dork not a english major!
Zebee Johnstone
Just tried to add a long route, finally finished, saved... and it told
me I wasn't logged in!
(firefox under linux, cookies enabled)
Zebee
Jules
Yikes!
If you've still got the window open, you could fire up a seperate
window, log in, and hit the save button again.
Probably a bit late for that now ;-(
I'll definitely look into this as a priority.
Jules
Aeek
is there a way to insert a waypoint later? and the click again to move
just trashed my almost finished map. At least thats a way to insert,
but, AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH.
Andre
flyingdutch
'etrex' WTF? is that another bit of CF i 'must have' ? :D
been tryin to add the altitudes to the HCC race maps, but havent had
all altitudes thus far to do so. most welcome.
How do they output? similar to a Polar readout?
PS i thawt Etrenth was relatively' flat?
--
flyingdutch
Aeek
<ben....@yourfinger.anu.edu.au> wrote:
>The average seems to be 70 for me. This is an unfortunate result of the
>curvy road design in Canberra... it takes a few extra points to get from
>A to B to ensure the line accurately marks the route!
at about point 125 on entering my ride home the second time I got
script still running, stop, or continue - every waypoint. Painful.
Firefox/XP.
Bean, you don't go near Kambah on the ride home.
Andre
Bleve
flyingdutch wrote:
> 'etrex' WTF? is that another bit of CF i 'must have' ? :D
GPS, Garmin eTrex. About the size of a mobile phone. Pop it in a
jersey pocket and let it run, download to PC later.
> been tryin to add the altitudes to the HCC race maps, but havent had
> all altitudes thus far to do so. most welcome.
> How do they output? similar to a Polar readout?
A bit, yes. It's just ASCII
> PS i thawt Etrenth was relatively' flat?
Not flat enough for this fat bastard :)
Bleve
Aeek wrote:
> On Wed, 24 May 2006 14:08:52 +1000, Bean Long
> <ben....@yourfinger.anu.edu.au> wrote:
>
> >The average seems to be 70 for me. This is an unfortunate result of the
> >curvy road design in Canberra... it takes a few extra points to get from
> >A to B to ensure the line accurately marks the route!
>
> at about point 125 on entering my ride home the second time I got
> script still running, stop, or continue - every waypoint. Painful.
> Firefox/XP.
Likewise after about point 130 or so, but it still works.
Zebee Johnstone
Aeek <aeee...@tpg.com.au> wrote:
>
> at about point 125 on entering my ride home the second time I got
> script still running, stop, or continue - every waypoint. Painful.
> Firefox/XP.
Did it at about point 75 for me.
Zebee
Stuart Lamble
> BTW I just ate a thoroughly enjoyable cookie, you should try it some
> time, Stu!
You American lover!
> *runs*
*hauls out the bazooka*
Jules
along the way. Then keep plotting, or come back later to finish it.
Might put up a note mentioning that ;-)
Donga
Can other people edit my route, e.g. to add information or their own
take?
Donga
Jules
> take?
Nup, just you at this stage.
Jules
Ok I discovered that indeed there is a short session timeout - the nice
round number of 24 minutes (!).
I've added a 60 second ping interval during route creation to prevent
the session timing out.
Sorry about the hassle!
Cheers,
Jules
Stuart Lamble
It'd probably be unworkable to allow everybody to edit everybody else's
routes, but at the same time, we do need some way to be able to comment
on already posted routes. eg: "Nice, but you probably should take a left
there and detour via Smith Street to avoid that nasty roundabout a
couple of hundred metres down the road." Or a rating system: every
registered user can rate a given route, and the average rating for each
route is displayed. Maybe let people drill down to see who gave what
rating to a route, too, although that's a little dicier. "Why don't you
like my route?! HULK SMASH!" :-)
On the whole, I think I prefer either the comment system, or the ability
to copy and modify a route. Copying, naturally, should display the
source as well (automatic credit! :-)
Just some idle thoughts off the top of my head.
Bean Long
> Bean, you don't go near Kambah on the ride home.
I hit the edge of Kambah on the Athllon/Sulwood intersection and ride
the Kambah side of Athllon for about 500 metres.
Did you know that Kambah is the biggest suburb in CBR!? It's freakin
huge! I'll have no arguments if you say I don't go to Kambah! :-)
Bean Long
to keep going. Is very painful but still works.
Bean Long
asked if people could update notes to say, for example, there are
roadworks at point X, take a detour...?
Also, I'd like to be able to add an Alternate route/s. Is this or will
this be possible or will I need to create a whole new route with an
alternative 1k stretch in it??
Bean Long
Bikely... we clearly love it!
Bleve
You need a faster PC :)
ghostgum
Could someone please put in the Melbourne ATB 2005 route?
--
ghostgum
Donga
ghostgum wrote:
> Could someone please put in the Melbourne ATB 2005 route?
What did your last slave die of?
;-)
Donga
Kethy
"Donga" <idomybestw...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1148522482.0...@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...
Terminal disobedience
:)
Dave
flyingdutch
he missed the ferry :D
--
flyingdutch
Bleve
Exhaustion?
ghostgum
I didn't do the ride last year, but I'm interested in doing it this
year. If someone who did it last year were to enter the route, I'd
have a good idea of where I might going this year (assuming I don't
take a scenic route).
Last year I did the 50km ride (my longest ride at the time), but just
before the event I discovered that the trains didn't run that early on
a Sunday morning, so I added another 54km return from my home. Then
another 5km or so for getting geographically embarassed when following
others and taking the "scenic route" via Station Pier to the West Gate
bridge :-)
--
ghostgum
TimC
was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:
> As promised a few days ago... I present: "Bikely"
>
> http://www.bikely.com/
Neat! Are you going to be backing things up?
--
TimC
Ah, so many of life's little problems can be solved by head
vaporisation. -- Zixia in ARK
TimC
was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:
> happy to oblige you. On this issue you are simply mistaken.
>
>> X-Forwarded-For, I think, is the header you should be looking at. That,
>> combined with the IP address of the proxy, should be more than enough.
>> It's not about being 100% accurate; it's about making it that little bit
>> harder to hijack the session.
Sorry sjl, I'm so with Jules on all this...
>> Granted, although that wasn't my main thrust (to be fair, I'll grant
>> that I didn't make that clear.)
>
> I still don't know what your "main thrust" is? That all web
> applications are inherently flawed and we should stick to static white
> pages with Times Roman?
Yes! Except for the bit about white. I don't want some goddamned
hippy setting my background colours and blinding me. That should be a
user choice. I set my screen to white on black.
--
TimC
/*-----------------------------------/*
*------------------------------------* |
| A very interesting comment | |
| resides in this rectangular prism. | /
*------------------------------------*/
TimC
was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:
>> Excellent work, Jules.
>> How about a search facility where you could type in a suburb or list of
>> suburbs to find routes through them.
>
> That's definitely priority number one!
>
> Just wanted to get a database of routes before I did it. Got no more
> excuses, now ;-)
Is there a way to access google's data on suburbs? I fear having to
go back to label BR(x). I'm up to point 186 (perhaps I put points in
too finely at the start, but now can't go back to delete intermediate
points), and it has just started to bug me about the script taking too
long, each time I add a point
Is there a way to work out where the current map boundaries are, and
only get the browser to draw the lines currently in the view? That'll
speed her up a bit!
--
TimC
Information wants to be beer, or something like that. --unknown
TimC
was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:
> time, Stu!
Don't program after hash cookie consumption!
--
TimC
> Bugger you guys.
> The babelfish is idempotent on the set above.
I'm afraid that isn't a very good pickup line either, Tim. - MaryG
TimC
was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:
> is.... ;-P
And as such, The listpaths list should list the number of kilometrtes
next to the date added :)
--
TimC
Yip yip yip yip yap yap yip *BANG* --- NO TERRIER
-- JoeB in the Scary Devil Monastery
Damian
TimC wrote:
> I'm up to point 186 (perhaps I put points in
> too finely at the start,
I'll say. You know that you only need two points to make a straight
line right ? ;)
Aeek
<tcon...@no.spam.accepted.here-astro.swin.edu.au> wrote:
>Is there a way to access google's data on suburbs? I fear having to
>go back to label BR(x).
Zoom out a bit on the Map view and the suburbs names display, at least
for Canberra, you can update the text for any point later.
What I really want is to insert an intermediate point later.
Aeek
<tcon...@no.spam.accepted.here-astro.swin.edu.au> wrote:
>points), and it has just started to bug me about the script taking too
>long, each time I add a point
I just hit the script feature at point 126 again, saved, restarted
firefox and am happily updating again.
Aeek
<tcon...@no.spam.accepted.here-astro.swin.edu.au> wrote:
>On 2006-05-23, Jules (aka Bruce)
> was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:
>> As promised a few days ago... I present: "Bikely"
>>
>> http://www.bikely.com/
>
>Neat! Are you going to be backing things up?
Hope so, just finished entering my 3rd route, 300 pts for under 15km.
Another reason to hate paths, although Canberra roads aren't much
straighter.
Even with repeated save and reloads I started getting 2 dialogs per
script feature. Does it have to process every point every time?
Andre
Tamyka Bell
>
<snip>
> * Would be kinda fun to be able to overlay secondary or alternate
> routes.
<snip>
Damian had lots of great points but this was a big one - when I came to
"decision points" where I travel a different way in different
conditions, I wrote comments - but it'd be nice to map them all on the
one chart.
Tam
Jules
Unfortunately no ;-(
> go back to label BR(x). I'm up to point 186 (perhaps I put points in
> too finely at the start, but now can't go back to delete intermediate
> points), and it has just started to bug me about the script taking too
> long, each time I add a point
Adding+Deleting intermediate points is also on the todo list.
>
> Is there a way to work out where the current map boundaries are, and
> only get the browser to draw the lines currently in the view? That'll
> speed her up a bit!
Yep, on the todo list.
You should see the length of this todo list ;-)
Dirty Digger
I predict you have created something which will soon become HUGE. Hang on to
your PC!
Dirty Digger
"Jules" <sdf...@example.com> wrote in message
news:7yDcg.9426$S7....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...