Can Sydney Airport accommodate the Space Shuttle?
Stephen Harris
if required? Is this true?
Also are runways numbered according to the compass?
With the airport codes, How are the codes worked out?
--
DISCLAIMER - Material and opinions contained within are
solely those of the author and do not necessarily
represent in whole or in part the position of the RTA
Michael Price
that I suppose.
For the second query though, runways are identified on their compass
bearing.
For the third, I think it is ICAO convention that identifies airports, but
someone else on the forum may be able to confirm that.
Rgds
Tony Paton
<Stephen...@rta.nsw.gov.au> wrote:
>I read that the runway 34L,16R at YSSY can accommodate the Space Shuttle
>if required? Is this true?
So I've heard it can land the shuttle. I'm sure it would want to land
somewhere else!
>Also are runways numbered according to the compass?
Yes they are but to the closest two digits. Not sure for Sydney but
Runway 16 is actually 163 so the drop the 3.
>With the airport codes, How are the codes worked out?
They are worked out in the offices in ICAO (international Civil
Aviation Organisation). The fisrt letter is the country "Y", we used
to be "A" which made sense. The second is the area it is in. "S" is
for Sydney area ie Bankstown YSBK. The last two digits are for the
airport. So "SY" is Sydney "BK" is Bankstown.
Hope this helps.
\
------------ >-==- TONY PATON to...@tpg.com.au
/
gr...@mpx.com.au
<Stephen...@rta.nsw.gov.au> wrote:
>I read that the runway 34L,16R at YSSY can accommodate the Space Shuttle
>if required? Is this true?
The long runway at Sydney is only 12500 feet, from memory. The shuttle
*may* require 14000' (or perhaps even a little more). The problem with
landing one is that it would have to be done manually, and they would
only get one chance.
Ben White
During a recent Airport Tour we were told that that 34L/16R was lengthened
(no idea by how much) to accomodate the Space Shuttle landing. NASA required
a landing area in the Southern Hemisphere and Sydney got picked. So from
what I've been told, Sydney Airport could accomodate the landing of the
Space Shuttle and Sydney is the only "Authorized" place for the Space
Shuttle to land in the Southern Hemisphere.
Runway numbers are numbered according to magnetic compass direction, not
true North.
In Australia, we have a country identifier (the letter "Y") and other area
identifiers (eg Brisbane - "B", Melbourne - "M", Sydney - "S" and Perth -
"P" areas). The aerodromes themselves are given a 2 letter identifier (eg
Bankstown - BK, Brisbane - BN). All these componants put together give you
information on the country, area and aerodrome abbreviation. An example is
Bankstown Airport. Bankstowns code is YSBK. The first Y indicates that the
aerodrome is in Australia. The next letter is an S and shows that Bankstown
is within the Sydney "area". The last 2 letters, BK, are the abbreviation
for Bankstown itself.
I hope this isn't too confusing,
Cheers...
Ben W
Stephen Harris <Stephen...@rta.nsw.gov.au> wrote in message
news:39854E80...@rta.nsw.gov.au...
>I read that the runway 34L,16R at YSSY can accommodate the Space Shuttle
>if required? Is this true?
>
>Also are runways numbered according to the compass?
>
>With the airport codes, How are the codes worked out?
David Bromage
> During a recent Airport Tour we were told that that 34L/16R was lengthened
> (no idea by how much) to accomodate the Space Shuttle landing. NASA required
> a landing area in the Southern Hemisphere and Sydney got picked. So from
> what I've been told, Sydney Airport could accomodate the landing of the
> Space Shuttle and Sydney is the only "Authorized" place for the Space
> Shuttle to land in the Southern Hemisphere.
In connection with my real life (i.e. work) I have spoken to some people
from NASA on various occasions. I have asked this very question.
The short answer is yes, in an absolute dire emergency and in good weather
they can put the shuttle down in about 1200m. For routine landings, they
use the parachute for most of the braking and only use wheel brakes right
at the end. The wheel brakes can pull them up faster, but they get quite
knackered and are expensive to replace.
If they are coming down fast and pointing in the general direction of
Australia, it's not that hard to change the flight path to come down at
Andersen AFB in Guam. I think there is also an alternatie in Japan,
originally designed for the Japanese space shuttle which is still being
developed.
Other alternates around the world include White Sands, Edwards AFB,
Morocco, Senegal, Gambia and Spain. Places such as Baikonur and Zhukovsky
Air Base are also available, but most of the purpose-built emergency
strips for Buran are no longer available. Interestingly, Buran pulled up
at Baikonur in 1150m on its one and only flight in 1988.
At one stage there was a plan to put in a 5000m dirt strip at Woomera as
an emergency landing site.
Cheers
David
Gregory Bond
> The problem with
> landing one is that it would have to be done manually, and they would
> only get one chance.
Um, in a glider, you only get one shot at landing, for any
airfield.....and the Shuttle is a (very bad - L/D ~1:4!) glider.
Peter Creswick
Cross at Camden, our instructor and class of 3 students (me one
of them) were preparing for the day's operations.
The duty runway was 10. In those days there were 2 parallel
strips, the power strip and the glider strip (10 / 28). It takes
a fair amount of time to auto tow 2 Blaniks and drive the pie
cart (our little mobile op centre, which was an old bedford pie
delivery van .. hence the name) out to the threshold. Since the
hangars and glider strip are on the opposite side of the power
strip, a keen eye had to be kept on any power aircraft in the
circuit by the driver and the wing walker when contemplating
crossing the power runway.
During this period, one of the local flying schools had a student
up in a C-150 aerobat doing circuits (about a dozen). Two or
three times, he aborted (way out of shape at about 200 feet) and
went around. Eventually we were set up at the 10 glider
threshold ready for the first flight.
Before operations commenced, the instructor called us all
together by the pie cart ..... as the 150 made yet another go
around.
He said, (as best as I can remember)........
"Missed approaches are a face saving procedure for incompetent
pilots.
All Glider pilots are competent pilots and therefore do not make
missed approaches.
Should any of you contemplate this manoeuvre, be advised that it
is indeed a prohibited manoeuvre.
Any one of you breaking this rule will answer to Norma (his wife,
sitting in the pie cart to do the logs).
If you survive that (from pie cart "DOUBTFUL") you will answer to
the CFI !"
(At that time the CFI was a fellow by the name of Barry Wrenford,
who had a reputation for "dealing" with students). None of us
ever made a "missed" approach, mind you, some were ........
"exciting".
PC
Bob Horgan
Yersinia
emergency shuttle landings.
Anyone know more of this (fact/fiction)?
"David Bromage" <dbro...@fang.omni.com.au> wrote in message
news:72sh5.38$tW.1...@news0.optus.net.au...
cowboy
Stephen Harris <Stephen...@rta.nsw.gov.au> wrote:
> I read that the runway 34L,16R at YSSY can accommodate the Space
Shuttle
> if required? Is this true?
>
> Also are runways numbered according to the compass?
>
> With the airport codes, How are the codes worked out?
> --
> DISCLAIMER - Material and opinions contained within are
> solely those of the author and do not necessarily
> represent in whole or in part the position of the RTA
>
Not for takeoffs but has always been on the list for emergency landings.
There are others on the west coast of africa , across that continent
and on its east coast , ditto for perth, woomera, adelaide maybe,
sydeney.
The requirement only exists after launch if the shuttle has an engine
problem and can't make it into orbit. Depending how far into the launch
it is then the aerodromes ahead come into play.
The convention on the runway numbering gets a bit out of kelter with
the passage of time and application of magnetic variation. Frinstance
runway 16 in Syd should now really be 15. But we have a runway with a
5 in its designator now, (25) so you will never see that situation. By
the same token change 07 to the correct 06 and it would clash with 16.
So in sydney both runways would have to be changed to realign the QDM
for the actual magnetic heading for today. That would take a world wide
notification and amendment of all publications , etc, to what purpose.
With magnetic variation it would need doing again in the not distant
future.
I suppose they will one day but why bother. The main need would be for
autoland rollout procedures and sydney is not cleared for them in
anger. The ILS will get you too the threshold now, and provided the
runway is not 200ft long and 13000ft wide, then its adequate as is.
cowboy
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Frank Paterson
<Stephen...@rta.nsw.gov.au> wrote:
>I read that the runway 34L,16R at YSSY can accommodate the Space Shuttle
>if required? Is this true?
I've heard that it is
>
>Also are runways numbered according to the compass?
There's a convention:-
Take the magnetic bearing of the runway and round it to the nearest 10
degrees, then divide by 10. If the result is less than 2 digits, add
a leading zero. Some countries don't do that last step - eg USA. Add
18 (180 divided by 10) to get the runway number of the opposite end.
If two runways end up with numbers that may be easily
confused/transposed, then one of them is changed.
Examples (Sydney) :-
RWY 16. Bearing is 156, rounded is 160, divide by 10 gives 16. The
opposite end is RWY 34 (16+18) These are spoken of as runway one six
and runway three four.
RWY 07. Bearing is 062, rounded is 060, divide by 10 gives 6, add a
leading 0 gives 06. Opposite end is 24. But one six and zero six
could easily be confused or transposed in radio communications with
two four and three four so the numbers were shifted by one to 07 and
25.
Same possibility of confusion can exist with opposite ends of the same
runway, for example 13/31 and 02/20. Perth used to have a 02/20. In
the late sixties/early seventies before there was a continuous radar
service (and hence continuous monitoring of aircraft) there were a
number of serious procedural incidents where aircraft turned up at the
wrong end, mistaking zero two for two zero and vice versa. That
runway was changed to 03/21.
>
>With the airport codes, How are the codes worked out?
Which codes, Stephen? There are a few.
There's one major one that appears on your baggage tag - that's an
IATA location code used by the airlines which gives every destination
on the planet a three letter code (I think). It's not always logical
and I've no idea how it's worked out.
The other major one that you may be referring to is that which
international ATC and aeronautical communications systems use
There's a bit of history to it, modified by airspace restructuring and
international agreement (ICAO - the civil aviation arm of United
Nations). And then, of course, there are exceptions.
Basically locations are designated by four-letter location codes.
Take Melbourne for example - its code is YMML.
The first letter represents broadly what part of the world the
location is in. Australian airspace used to be prefixed by the letter
A, but years ago that was changed to Y by international agreement.
Within Aus airspace there used to be a number of flight information
regions - FIR. With some exceptions (Tas was looked after by
Melbourne and NT came under Adelaide) they were based roughly upon
state boundaries, each had its own control centre and was named by its
state capital. Thus the NSW airspace was the Sydney FIR, WA airspace
was Perth FIR, etc. The letter S for Sydney, P for Perth, M for
Melbourne, etc, became the second letter of the location code.
The last two letters are the abbreviation for the location name - eg
SY for Sydney, ML for Melbourne, etc. There was a system for that,
too. Places of larger aviation significance had Air Traffic Services
of some kind based there - ATC, Flight Service, Notam and briefing
office, etc. These places were given a two letter abbreviation,
resulting in a 4-letter location code. Other places were given a
three letter abbreviation.
Airspace and systems amalgamation in the last decade has forced many
discrepancies into that basic system - technology overhauling history,
I guess.
Cheers
Frank Paterson
The opinions expressed above are mine and do not necessarily
represent those of my employer.
Frank Paterson
<Stephen...@rta.nsw.gov.au> wrote:
>I read that the runway 34L,16R at YSSY can accommodate the Space Shuttle
>if required? Is this true?
I've heard that it is
>
>Also are runways numbered according to the compass?
There's a convention:-
Take the magnetic bearing of the runway and round it to the nearest 10
degrees, then divide by 10. If the result is less than 2 digits, add
a leading zero. Some countries don't do that last step - eg USA. Add
18 (180 divided by 10) to get the runway number of the opposite end.
If two runways end up with numbers that may be easily
confused/transposed, then one of them is changed.
Examples (Sydney) :-
RWY 16. Bearing is 156, rounded is 160, divide by 10 gives 16. The
opposite end is RWY 34 (16+18) These are spoken of as runway one six
and runway three four.
RWY 07. Bearing is 062, rounded is 060, divide by 10 gives 6, add a
leading 0 gives 06. Opposite end is 24. But one six and zero six
could easily be confused or transposed in radio communications, also
two four and three four, so the numbers for 06/24 were shifted by one
Geoff Breach
<72sh5.38$tW.1...@news0.optus.net.au>:
>an emergency landing site.
If a shuttle should put in at one of these places
(YSSY, Anderson, etc) how would one go about getting
it out of there again?
Last time I looked, the B747 used for testing and
transport didn't have a ramp to load the shuttle.
I imagine transport by B747 would be a strictly short
hall thing. Would a shuttle that landed in these parts
be written off?
Geoff
David Bromage
> dbro...@fang.omni.com.au (David Bromage) wrote in
> <72sh5.38$tW.1...@news0.optus.net.au>:
> >At one stage there was a plan to put in a 5000m dirt strip at Woomera as
> >an emergency landing site.
> If a shuttle should put in at one of these places
> (YSSY, Anderson, etc) how would one go about getting
> it out of there again?
> Last time I looked, the B747 used for testing and
> transport didn't have a ramp to load the shuttle.
Big cranes.
Cheers
David
matt weber
[firstname]s[lastinitial]at.hotmail.com (Geoff Breach) wrote:
>dbro...@fang.omni.com.au (David Bromage) wrote in
><72sh5.38$tW.1...@news0.optus.net.au>:
>>At one stage there was a plan to put in a 5000m dirt strip at Woomera as
>>an emergency landing site.
>
> If a shuttle should put in at one of these places
>(YSSY, Anderson, etc) how would one go about getting
>it out of there again?
>
> Last time I looked, the B747 used for testing and
>transport didn't have a ramp to load the shuttle.
>
> I imagine transport by B747 would be a strictly short
>hall thing. Would a shuttle that landed in these parts
>be written off?
I suspect it is loaded with a crane rather than a ramp, although range
on the 747 with it on board is bit suspect. Be interesting getting it
back to the USA that way but probably not impossible...
Something like Sydney Cairns or Sydney Tindal, Cairns or Tindal Cebu,
Cebu Okinawa, Okinawa Sapporo, A stop on the Kamchatka Pennisula, and
on to the USA via ANC and SEA would be probably be workable. The
longes stretch is about 2300miles, about the same as Edwards to Cape
Canaveral
there is always a sea going barge or a container ship. It might take
a while to get it back to the USA, but I don't think this is all that
difficult.
At several billion USD per copy, unless it was written off in the
landing, I can't see the US taxpayer being willing to leave it.
David Bromage
> I suspect it is loaded with a crane rather than a ramp, although range
> on the 747 with it on board is bit suspect. Be interesting getting it
> back to the USA that way but probably not impossible...
Look at the reverse route for delivery of the 717s.
Cheers
David
Peter Creswick
1. Install air to air refuelling ins the 747 (grab a C-5 kit
ASAP), and do a bit of plumbing.
2. Hire the men from MARS to hoist it on.
3. Wait for a good southerly.
4. Recoup costs by closing all roads within 1nm of YSSY fence and
sell tickets to anyone entering !
Geoff Breach wrote:
>
> dbro...@fang.omni.com.au (David Bromage) wrote in
> <72sh5.38$tW.1...@news0.optus.net.au>:
> >At one stage there was a plan to put in a 5000m dirt strip at Woomera as
> >an emergency landing site.
>
> If a shuttle should put in at one of these places
> (YSSY, Anderson, etc) how would one go about getting
> it out of there again?
>
> Last time I looked, the B747 used for testing and
> transport didn't have a ramp to load the shuttle.
>
> I imagine transport by B747 would be a strictly short
> hall thing. Would a shuttle that landed in these parts
> be written off?
>
> Geoff
Uwe Seelar
Chris
>>> What happens if you're the 27th country to be listed?
If this was 'tongue in cheek', then :-)))
otherwise:-
The first letter is actually an area rather than a specific country (depends
on the size of the country - we've got a whole letter to ourselves!!). As
an example, most of the Middle East starts with 'O', with the 2nd letter
designating the actual country:-
'OMxx' is the UAE, 'OOxx' is Oman, 'OBxx' is Bahrain etc.
Cheers,
Chris
"Martin Taylor" <mj_t...@bigppond.com> wrote in message
news:0001...@ozemail.com.au...
> Tony Paton said..
>
> TP> They are worked out in the offices in ICAO (international Civil
> TP> Aviation Organisation). The fisrt letter is the country "Y", we used
> TP> to be "A" which made sense. The second is the area it is in. "S" is
>
> What happens if you're the 27th country to be listed?
>
>
>
> .. Headline: Grandmother of eight makes hole in one
>
>
> MJT
>
> Take a "p" out of bigppond for an email reply
>
> Gippsland, Victoria, Australia
>
Nihonga
>for, say 07 at YSSY, do you align yourself at 070 on the
DI/Compass
>and correct when visual or do you align at 062 (or whatever the
>number is this year) for the duration of the approach?
Talking in a light aircraft sense. When I line up on the runway
(this is before I take off), I align the DI with what the actual
magnetic direction of the Runway is and cross check with the
compass. In flight ie before descent, I align the DI with the
compass. This is due to flying over areas of different magnetic
variations & the tendency of the DI gyros to wander.
So to answer your question, you wouldn't do it on approach but
some time before. On a visual approach you are not worried to
much about the exact heading but to know you are landing on the
right runway.
Not sure in an ILS sense but I assume you would set the bug to
the actual magnetic number as the ILS is independant to aircraft
heading but your DI would be set sometime before starting the
approach.
Hope I haven't confused anyone.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com.
Up to 100 minutes free!
http://www.keen.com
Martin Taylor
Bennetts family
<Stephen...@rta.nsw.gov.au> wrote:
>I read that the runway 34L,16R at YSSY can accommodate the Space Shuttle
>if required? Is this true?
At a push, any runway of suitable length & width _could_ be used for
landing, if (and only if) it was in a suitable location at the time
(downrange and crossrange).
However, unless there was a catastrophic failure, which would probably
knock off the crew (or the OMS engines or the relevant RCS thrusters
(for the deorbit) or the APUs (so that aerosurfaces can be used once
in the atmosphere)), it would be better (and *much* cheaper) to hold
tight until a landing opportunity opened up at either KSC, Edwards
AFB, or the TAL (TransAtLantic abort: used if there is a failure in
one (or more) of the main engines after SRB separation: if the SRBs
fail before separation, then it almost certainly means a total loss of
vehicle, crew, and payload, see STS-51L) sites in Spain or Africa
IIRC.
In short, don't get your hopes up.
--Chris
BJ
strip in the Australasian area???
Ben White <bwh...@highabove.com> wrote in article
<39862f53$0$11137$7f31...@news01.syd.optusnet.com.au>...
> Stephen,
>
> During a recent Airport Tour we were told that that 34L/16R was
lengthened
> (no idea by how much) to accomodate the Space Shuttle landing. NASA
required
> a landing area in the Southern Hemisphere and Sydney got picked. So from
> what I've been told, Sydney Airport could accomodate the landing of the
> Space Shuttle and Sydney is the only "Authorized" place for the Space
> Shuttle to land in the Southern Hemisphere.
>
> Runway numbers are numbered according to magnetic compass direction, not
> true North.
>
> In Australia, we have a country identifier (the letter "Y") and other
area
> identifiers (eg Brisbane - "B", Melbourne - "M", Sydney - "S" and Perth -
> "P" areas). The aerodromes themselves are given a 2 letter identifier (eg
> Bankstown - BK, Brisbane - BN). All these componants put together give
you
> information on the country, area and aerodrome abbreviation. An example
is
> Bankstown Airport. Bankstowns code is YSBK. The first Y indicates that
the
> aerodrome is in Australia. The next letter is an S and shows that
Bankstown
> is within the Sydney "area". The last 2 letters, BK, are the abbreviation
> for Bankstown itself.
>
> I hope this isn't too confusing,
>
> Cheers...
>
> Ben W
>
> Stephen Harris <Stephen...@rta.nsw.gov.au> wrote in message
> news:39854E80...@rta.nsw.gov.au...
> >I read that the runway 34L,16R at YSSY can accommodate the Space Shuttle
> >if required? Is this true?
> >
> >Also are runways numbered according to the compass?
> >
> >With the airport codes, How are the codes worked out?
Sunny
"BJ" <macg...@bigpond.com> wrote in message news:01bffd03$22b3c840$d80f12ac@Q2644...
Frank Paterson
The Terminal's terminal suffered a short
And much of the traffic had to abort
T'was tower power that saved the day
In a partial kind of way.
Enough dreadful doggerel. The tower power supplies are separate from
the Terminal Control Unit's and were not affected, but because the TCU
was down or partially down, some TWR-TCU interactions and facilities
were affected. Regardless of where the tech fault occurs, the effect
is the same - that's understood :-(
The tower was affected by the computer based comms problems that have
happened recently. Software upgrade tonight to hopefully fix that.
Time will tell.
Cheers
Frank
On Wed, 02 Aug 2000 10:57:04 GMT, wo...@iinet.net.au (Uwe Seelar)
wrote:
>In principle yes.......if there is power in the tower.
The opinions expressed above are mine and do not necessarily
represent those of my employer.
Lee
Stealth Pilot
<fra...@zipworld.net.au> wrote:
>On Mon, 31 Jul 2000 20:01:36 +1000, Stephen Harris
><Stephen...@rta.nsw.gov.au> wrote:
>
>>I read that the runway 34L,16R at YSSY can accommodate the Space Shuttle
>>if required? Is this true?
>
>I've heard that it is
Frank I keep getting this picture of Columbia making a successful
deadstick into 34L.
Then being cleared to taxy to the apron via Bravo1, Bravo2 and
Charlie1.
giggles all round because it has no motive power.
but the giggles turning to derision when it is discovered that no one
on the airfield has a towbar that can be used to tow it clear.
So I'll ask the question.
If the Shuttle did land at Sydney International could anyone for
certain tow it clear of the runway without damaging it ?
Stealth ( Prior Preparation and Plannning Prevents ... ) Pilot
RT
Stealth Pilot <tail...@iinetsplotnetsplotau.rubbish.con> wrote in message
news:398ab64b...@news.m.iinet.net.au...
> but the giggles turning to derision when it is discovered that no one
> on the airfield has a towbar that can be used to tow it clear.
>
> So I'll ask the question.
> If the Shuttle did land at Sydney International could anyone for
> certain tow it clear of the runway without damaging it ?
Cable 'round the mains should do it
Bennetts family
Don't do it too soon, though. The shuttle uses highly toxic fuels for
it's on orbit work (the main engines use safe LH2/LOX, but that's only
for launch: they can't be restarted and there's no fuel for them to
use (hence the external tank)). These need to be blown away (they use
a big fan), some umbilicals need to be wired, and then you have to
extract the crew.
In short: the crew can get out themselves (provisions exist for this),
but leave the runway closed (impractical in the extreme but necessary)
until the KSC guys arrive with suitable equipment and a suitable 747
to get rid of the thing.
--Chris
matt weber
>
>Stealth Pilot <tail...@iinetsplotnetsplotau.rubbish.con> wrote in message
>news:398ab64b...@news.m.iinet.net.au...
>> but the giggles turning to derision when it is discovered that no one
>> on the airfield has a towbar that can be used to tow it clear.
>>
>> So I'll ask the question.
>> If the Shuttle did land at Sydney International could anyone for
>> certain tow it clear of the runway without damaging it ?
>
>Cable 'round the mains should do it
I'd be more worried about the condition of tyres (it seems to be a
rare landing when at least one doesn't blow), and there is an issue of
the venting of the monopropellant fuel for the thrusters. It is
definitely considered Hazardous. (You haven't seen big fans until you
see ones used to keep the vented chemistry downwind...)
towing should not be all that difficult. It is about the same weight
as an Impulse 717...
Chris Boulton
Lee wrote:
> RAAF Amberley is the largest runway in the southern hemisphere.
Well unless Amberley has another 'secret' runway their main runway 15/33
is 3047M which in comparision to Brisbanes 3560M, Melbournes 3657M and
Sydneys 3962M.
matt weber
Actually not even close to the longest in the southern Hemisphere. I
am pretty sure that honor belongs to Harare. It is close to 5000
meters....
Buckshot
in area in Australia.
--
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cowboy
Nihonga <tony.pato...@griffithhack.com.au.invalid> wrote:
> > Procedurally (Cowboy, Wayne, JB, Sandy, ors) when on approach
> >for, say 07 at YSSY, do you align yourself at 070 on the
> DI/Compass
> >and correct when visual or do you align at 062 (or whatever the
> >number is this year) for the duration of the approach?
>
> Talking in a light aircraft sense. When I line up on the runway
> (this is before I take off), I align the DI with what the actual
> magnetic direction of the Runway is and cross check with the
> compass. In flight ie before descent, I align the DI with the
> compass. This is due to flying over areas of different magnetic
> variations & the tendency of the DI gyros to wander.
> So to answer your question, you wouldn't do it on approach but
> some time before. On a visual approach you are not worried to
> much about the exact heading but to know you are landing on the
> right runway.
> Not sure in an ILS sense but I assume you would set the bug to
> the actual magnetic number as the ILS is independant to aircraft
> heading but your DI would be set sometime before starting the
> approach.
> Hope I haven't confused anyone.
Geoff:In the ERSA is the exact magnetic direction of every runway with
a sealed surface or capable of being used off an instrument approach.
(The QDM)That number is dialled into the particular ILS instrument and
system depending on the type of aeroplane.
We are way past the setting of Di's etc.
The above poster does exactly the same on take off he/she reports.
The reason for the resetting of the gyro however is incorrect.
The DG is re- aligned periodically (every 10-15 mins) to compensated
for internal frictional errors but mostly to counter 'earth transit
precession' which occurs as you transport a rigid spinning wheel across
the surface of the rotating earth. (ETrP: 15 times sine of Latitude)
I know you know that it is never re-aligned when changing speed or
turning.
cowboy
matt weber <matth...@home.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 05 Aug 2000 21:36:42 +1000, Chris Boulton
> <chri...@one.net.au> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >Lee wrote:
> >
> >> RAAF Amberley is the largest runway in the southern hemisphere.
> >
> >Well unless Amberley has another 'secret' runway their main runway
15/33
> >is 3047M which in comparision to Brisbanes 3560M, Melbournes 3657M
and
> >Sydneys 3962M.
>
> am pretty sure that honor belongs to Harare. It is close to 5000
> meters....
>
My recollection on take offs from there was that you thought you were
going by road.
cowboy
"Lee" <b...@bob.bob> wrote:
> RAAF Amberley is the largest runway in the southern hemisphere.
>
Except for amongst others named elsewhere: Curtin 3049m; Darwin 3354m;
Perth 3444; Learmonth 3047; Scherger 3049m.
Obviously a huge amount of research went into the original dumb post.
jacko
cowboy <cow...@ram.net.au> wrote:
> In article <bnri5.85$G7....@nsw.nnrp.telstra.net>,
> "Lee" <b...@bob.bob> wrote:
> > RAAF Amberley is the largest runway in the southern hemisphere.
> >
> Amberley 3047m.
> Except for amongst others named elsewhere: Curtin 3049m; Darwin 3354m;
> Perth 3444; Learmonth 3047; Scherger 3049m.
>
Chris
>>that honor belongs to Harare. It is close to 5000 meters
As I recall, at Harare's height AMSL, you need every inch of it on a long
haul departure :-)
Chris
"matt weber" <matth...@home.com> wrote in message
news:6jjoosklmks6hh2jh...@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 05 Aug 2000 21:36:42 +1000, Chris Boulton
> <chri...@one.net.au> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >Lee wrote:
> >
> >> RAAF Amberley is the largest runway in the southern hemisphere.
> >
matt weber
wrote:
>Matt,
>
>>>that honor belongs to Harare. It is close to 5000 meters
>
>As I recall, at Harare's height AMSL, you need every inch of it on a long
>haul departure :-)
>
>Chris
NBO (5300 ft) and JNB (5500) are actually higher. IIRC, HRE is about
4900 ft.
Bennetts family
wrote:
>On Sat, 5 Aug 2000 09:28:11 +1000, "RT" <r.th...@cqu.edu.au> wrote:
snip
>I'd be more worried about the condition of tyres (it seems to be a
>rare landing when at least one doesn't blow),
No, *one* blew *once*, now they're getting in the habit of reusing the
tyres, depending on wear.
--Chris
Frank Paterson
If Bob Hoover can land his Shrike deadstick at Oshkosh, then weave his
way unpowered to a parking spot, I don't see why NASA with all its
technology couldn't manage the energy of the shuttle to do the same -
most visiting Mil/VIP aircraft go to QF Executive, which is but one
turn off RWY 34L and a straight line to the ramp, so shouldn't be too
hard. :-)
Alternatively and as a backup...
There is an airline at Sydney which carries its own towbar. Perhaps
if the Shuttle were to do the same, embarrassment might be avoided.
It would be weightless for most of the flight so shouldn't be a
problem...:-)
Re the noxious fumes (see post from ----Chris jcm...@dynamite.com.au)
- well that could be a problem because Sydney always operates with
downwind, which would blow the fumes toward the nose. The shuttle
would have to wait for a headwind day. Alternatively, the airport
would have to operate into wind for a while, but that would no doubt
be environmentally unacceptable. Let me just check with Brendan
Nelson ...
All very TIC and cynical.
>So I'll ask the question.
> If the Shuttle did land at Sydney International could anyone for
>certain tow it clear of the runway without damaging it ?
Stealth, if you're still with me, I don't know, but my guess is no.
The question then becomes "What happens if 34L is not available due to
a disabled aircraft?"
It would be a joint decision between TWR and TCU. 34R is still
available, so wind permitting we would probably go for 34R arrivals,
25 departures as a first choice.
Alternatively 07 or 25 for everything.
34R for everything would work but it would be very inefficient. If
locked into one runway, better to use 07 or 25 IMO, crosswind
permitting.
Cheers
Frank
On Fri, 04 Aug 2000 12:34:52 GMT,
tail...@iinetsplotnetsplotau.rubbish.con (Stealth Pilot) wrote:
>Frank I keep getting this picture of Columbia making a successful
>deadstick into 34L.
>Then being cleared to taxy to the apron via Bravo1, Bravo2 and
>Charlie1.
>giggles all round because it has no motive power.
>but the giggles turning to derision when it is discovered that no one
>on the airfield has a towbar that can be used to tow it clear.
>
>So I'll ask the question.
> If the Shuttle did land at Sydney International could anyone for
>certain tow it clear of the runway without damaging it ?
>
>Stealth ( Prior Preparation and Plannning Prevents ... ) Pilot
The opinions expressed above are mine and do not necessarily
Stealth Pilot
fly over to watch.
c'mon yanks do it for the olympics!!!
Stealth.
JB
"Frank Paterson" <fra...@zipworld.net.au> wrote in message
news:k5kqos831cisodnia...@4ax.com...
>
> Re the noxious fumes (see post from ----Chris jcm...@dynamite.com.au)
> - well that could be a problem because Sydney always operates with
> downwind, which would blow the fumes toward the nose. The shuttle
> would have to wait for a headwind day. Alternatively, the airport
> would have to operate into wind for a while, but that would no doubt
> be environmentally unacceptable. Let me just check with Brendan
> Nelson ...
Surely they would let a glider land into wind....then again...
JB
Martin Taylor
Le> RAAF Amberley is the largest runway in the southern hemisphere.
I thought that Avalon was? What are the lengths of the respective
runways, then?
.. Get even. Fill out your tax return with Roman numerals
Martin Taylor
ja> 18/36 at Avalon also beats Ambo by a comfortable 100cm. :-)
Does it? Then ignore my previous post. I read somewhere recently that it
was the longest one in Oz. Might have been a car or bike mag. They've
been testing vehicles for top speed at Avalon recently.
.. What is a free gift? Aren't all gifts free?
Dave Proctor
"Martin Taylor" <mj_t...@bigppond.com> wrote in message
news:0001...@ozemail.com.au...
> .. Get even. Fill out your tax return with Roman numerals
How can you do that using e-tax? I love e-tax, got my refund on Saturday
(must have been sent Friday) and only lodged my return last Tuesday - 4
sleeps between return lodgement and spending the $1072.36 refund.
I emailled some of my US friends about it, and they can't believe it - the
IRS has nothing of the sort. I lodge my personal tax return and my BAS
electronically, transfer the money using Bpay, and don't have to go anywhere
near the ATO. And they say that the US leads the world in technology.....
Dave
Just Another Deckchair on the Titanic
Erm, *what*? The US IRS has had e-filing for *years* -- something like
30% of individual returns were e-filed last year, with a substantial
proportion of them getting direct and immediate refunds (or debits...).
I can't remember the last time I filed a US tax return on paper.
Hamish (Australian in California)
Brash
runway at over 5 kays. (I've run the length of it a few times). And I've
been told it's a designated Shuttle emergency recovery runway.
--
Bring on the herbivores, I'm hungry.
"Chris Boulton" <chri...@one.net.au> wrote in message
news:398BFC4A...@one.net.au...
>
>
> Lee wrote:
>
> > RAAF Amberley is the largest runway in the southern hemisphere.
>
pbst...@gil.com.au
Sydney 3962
Melbourne 3657
Brisbane 3560
Perth 3444
Darwin 3354
Adelaide 3100
Avalon 3048
Amberley 3047
Learmonth 3047
Cheers Peter
pbst...@gil.com.au
============================
On Tue, 8 Aug 2000 15:46:46 +1000, "Brash"
<acrobat...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>I could be mistaken, but I seem to recall RAAF Learmonth is the longest
>runway at over 5 kays. (I've run the length of it a few times). And I've
>been told it's a designated Shuttle emergency recovery runway.
>
snip
>> > RAAF Amberley is the largest runway in the southern hemisphere.
>>
snip
Brash
something new every day.
--
Bring on the herbivores, I'm hungry.
<pbst...@gil.com.au> wrote in message
news:398fa18...@news.ipswich.gil.com.au...
Dave Proctor
news:398fa663$0$755$7f31...@news01.syd.optusnet.com.au...
> I stand corrected. I could have sworn it was 5 k. Oh well, you learn
> something new every day.
Might have *seemed* like 5km at the end of the run. :-)
Dave
Sunny
David Bromage
The actual list changes on a mission-by-mission basis due to the mission
profile, political situations around the world, conditions of runways and
the weather.
Kennedy Space Centre
Edwards AFB, California (prime alternate)
Zaragosa Air Base, Spain (TAL)
Ben Guerir Air Base, Morocco (TAL)
Yundum International Airport, Gambia (TAL)
TAL = Transoceanic Abort Landing site for aborted launches. Fitted with US
military TACAN navigation and additional navigation strobe lights. Yundum
and Zaragosa are also fitted with arresting nets which are installed prior
to launch and taken up when the shuttle reaches orbit. USAF C-130s with
satety equipment and medical teams are pre-positioned to evacuate the
shuttle crew (to the nearest USAF base) and deal with any injuries.
There are other long runways programmed into the system for emergency
landings. These have runways long enough to allow the shuttle to land
using its own air and wheel brakes.
Military:
White Sands Missile Range, New Mexico
Andersen AFB, Guam
Dover AFB, Delaware
Dyss AFB, Taxas
Ellsworth AFB, South Dakota
Grisson AFB, Indiana
Mountain Home AFB, Indiana
Pease AFB, New Hampshire
Plattsburg AFB, New York
Vandenberg AFB, California
Westover AFB, Massacchusetts
Wright-Patterson AFB, Ohio
Otis ANGB, Massacchusetts
Cherry Point MCAS, North Carolina
Bermuda NAS
Diego Garcia NAS
Souda Bay NAS, Crete
RAF Fairford, UK
RAF Brize-Norton, UK
RAF Upper Hayford, UK
RAAF Amberley, Australia
King Khalid Air Base, Saudi Arabia
Lajes Air Base, Azores
Hoedspruit Air Force Base, South Africa
Civilian:
Grant Country Airport, Washington
Honolulu International Airport, Hawaii
Lincoln Airport, Nebraska
Myrtle Beach Airport, South Carolina
Orlando International Airport, Florida
Nassau International Airport, Behamas
Arlanda Internationl Airport, Stockholm, Sweden
Cologne/Bonn Airport, Germany
Aeropuerto de Gran Canaria, Canary Islands, Spain
Esenboga Airport, Ankara, Turkey
Darwin International Airport, Australia
Kingsford Smith International Airport, Sydney, Australia
Hao Island, French Polynesia
Mataveri Airport, Rapanui, Easter Island
Runways which used to be on the list include:
RAF Fairford (out for a 2 year runway resurfacing)
Amilcar Cabral Airport, Cape Verde (political situation)
Dakar, Senegal (poor runway and obstructions from new building works)
Monrovia Airport, Liberia (political situation)
Kinshasa, Zaire (health risk and political situation)
Tamanrasset, Algeria (political situation)
If there was an emergency landing anywhere in the world, a C141 with 50
NASA engineers would arrive within 24 hours. After safing the orbiter and
assessing any damage, about 450 additional personnel and equipment would
arrive over the next few days. NASA estimates it will take 55 C-141 and 30
C-5 sorties to get all the equipment in place to lift the orbiter onto the
back of the 747.
Cheers
David
David Bromage
The actual list changes on a mission-by-mission basis due to the mission
profile, political situations around the world, conditions of runways and
the weather.
The bases where they prefer to land are:
Kennedy Space Centre
Edwards AFB, California (prime alternate)
Zaragosa Air Base, Spain (TAL)
Ben Guerir Air Base, Morocco (TAL)
Yundum International Airport, Gambia (TAL)
TAL = Transoceanic Abort Landing site for aborted launches. Fitted with US
military TACAN navigation and additional navigation strobe lights. Yundum
and Zaragosa are also fitted with arresting nets which are installed prior
to launch and taken up when the shuttle reaches orbit. USAF C-130s with
satety equipment and medical teams are pre-positioned to evacuate the
shuttle crew (to the nearest USAF base) and deal with any injuries.
There are other long runways programmed into the system for short notice
emergency landings. These have runways long enough to allow the shuttle to
land using its own air and wheel brakes.
Military:
Andersen AFB, Guam
Dover AFB, Delaware
Dyss AFB, Taxas
Ellsworth AFB, South Dakota
Grisson AFB, Indiana
Mountain Home AFB, Indiana
Pease AFB, New Hampshire
Plattsburg AFB, New York
Vandenberg AFB, California
Westover AFB, Massacchusetts
Wright-Patterson AFB, Ohio
Otis ANGB, Massacchusetts
Cherry Point MCAS, North Carolina
White Sands Missile Range, New Mexico
Bermuda NAS
Diego Garcia NAF
Souda Bay NAS, Crete
RAF Brize Norton, UK
RAF Mildenhall, UK
RAAF Amberley, Australia
King Khalid Air Base, Saudi Arabia
Lajes Air Base, Azores
Hoedspruit Air Force Base, South Africa
Civilian:
Grant Country Airport, Washington
Honolulu International Airport, Hawaii
Myrtle Beach Airport, South Carolina
Orlando International Airport, Florida
Lincoln Airport, Nebraska
Nassau International Airport, Bahamas
Arlanda Internationl Airport, Stockholm, Sweden
Cologne/Bonn Airport, Germany
Aeropuerto de Gran Canaria, Canary Islands
Esenboga Airport, Ankara, Turkey
Darwin International Airport, Australia
Sydney Kingsford Smith International Airport, Australia
Hao Island, French Polynesia
Mataveri Airport, Rapanui, Easter Island
Sites which used to be on the list include:
RAF Fairford (out for a 2 year runway resurfacing)
Dakar, Senegal (poor runway and obstructions from new building works)
Amilcar Cabral Airport, Cape Verde (political situation)
Monrovia Airport, Liberia (political situation)
Kinshasa, Zaire (political situation)
Peter and Susan
>Anyone know how long Tindal is?
><pbst...@gil.com.au> wrote in message =
>news:398fa18...@news.ipswich.gil.com.au...
>| From latest charts in DAP East & West.
>| Sydney 3962
>| Melbourne 3657
>| Brisbane 3560
>| Perth 3444
>| Darwin 3354
>| Adelaide 3100
>| Avalon 3048
>| Amberley 3047
>| Learmonth 3047
>
>
Tindal 2744
Cheers
Peter
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peter & Susan Cokley
petan @ powerup.com.au
http://www.welcome.to/petan
For personal replies to this message, remove NOSPAM from our address to avoid bounced mail.
Martin Taylor
> .. Get even. Fill out your tax return with Roman numerals
DP> How can you do that using e-tax? I love e-tax, got my refund on
DP> Saturday (must have been sent Friday) and only lodged my return last
DP> Tuesday - 4 sleeps between return lodgement and spending the $1072.36
DP> refund.
Well, given that last year, E-tax had me paying something like $800 to
the ATO, despite me going over it a number of times. It wasn't working
out my Medicare levy or rebate correctly.
A visit to the local accountant soon had me paying only $120...
In any case, I'm in no hurry. This year, I'll be lucky to break even.
The pay clerk didn't do a couple of pays correctly, including the
infamous holiday leave loading (this one's sure to get a certain person
here frothing at the mouth).
.. 3 1/3 tridents = 1 decadent
David Bromage
Cheers
David
jacko
Bromage) wrote:
>I found the latest available list of alternates for the shuttle.
>
Great informative post David.
I'd guess that Edwards would be the longest of these? - 12,000m IIRC.
David Bromage
Military:
Oceana NAS, Virginia
Off list:
RAF Upper Heyford, UK (closed)
Cheers
David
Gregory Bond
> I stand corrected. I could have sworn it was 5 k. Oh well, you learn
> something new every day.
>
Might be longer than stated in ERSA etc if you measured the actual
length of the tarmac, because the ERSA distances (marked with piano
keys etc) are sometimes derated for things like obstacle clearence.
Stealth Pilot
would allow me to give them a hand. :-)
roll on the aborts!
Stealth Pilot.
On Tue, 08 Aug 2000 07:45:45 GMT, dbro...@fang.omni.com.au (David
Bromage) wrote:
>I found the latest available list of alternates for the shuttle.
>
>The actual list changes on a mission-by-mission basis due to the mission
>profile, political situations around the world, conditions of runways and
>the weather.
>
>Kennedy Space Centre
>Edwards AFB, California (prime alternate)
>Zaragosa Air Base, Spain (TAL)
>Ben Guerir Air Base, Morocco (TAL)
>Yundum International Airport, Gambia (TAL)
>
>TAL = Transoceanic Abort Landing site for aborted launches. Fitted with US
>military TACAN navigation and additional navigation strobe lights. Yundum
>and Zaragosa are also fitted with arresting nets which are installed prior
>to launch and taken up when the shuttle reaches orbit. USAF C-130s with
>satety equipment and medical teams are pre-positioned to evacuate the
>shuttle crew (to the nearest USAF base) and deal with any injuries.
>
>There are other long runways programmed into the system for emergency
>landings. These have runways long enough to allow the shuttle to land
>using its own air and wheel brakes.
>
>Military:
>White Sands Missile Range, New Mexico
>Andersen AFB, Guam
>Dover AFB, Delaware
>Dyss AFB, Taxas
>Ellsworth AFB, South Dakota
>Grisson AFB, Indiana
>Mountain Home AFB, Indiana
>Pease AFB, New Hampshire
>Plattsburg AFB, New York
>Vandenberg AFB, California
>Westover AFB, Massacchusetts
>Wright-Patterson AFB, Ohio
>Otis ANGB, Massacchusetts
>Cherry Point MCAS, North Carolina
>Bermuda NAS
>Diego Garcia NAS
>Souda Bay NAS, Crete
>RAF Fairford, UK
>RAF Brize-Norton, UK
>RAF Upper Hayford, UK
>RAAF Amberley, Australia
>King Khalid Air Base, Saudi Arabia
>Lajes Air Base, Azores
>Hoedspruit Air Force Base, South Africa
>
>Civilian:
>Grant Country Airport, Washington
>Honolulu International Airport, Hawaii
>Lincoln Airport, Nebraska
>Myrtle Beach Airport, South Carolina
>Orlando International Airport, Florida
>Nassau International Airport, Behamas
>Arlanda Internationl Airport, Stockholm, Sweden
>Cologne/Bonn Airport, Germany
>Aeropuerto de Gran Canaria, Canary Islands, Spain
>Esenboga Airport, Ankara, Turkey
>Darwin International Airport, Australia
>Kingsford Smith International Airport, Sydney, Australia
>Hao Island, French Polynesia
>Mataveri Airport, Rapanui, Easter Island
>
>
>Runways which used to be on the list include:
>RAF Fairford (out for a 2 year runway resurfacing)
>Amilcar Cabral Airport, Cape Verde (political situation)
>Dakar, Senegal (poor runway and obstructions from new building works)
>Monrovia Airport, Liberia (political situation)
>Kinshasa, Zaire (health risk and political situation)
cowboy
the TORA, basically the tarred bit.
In the runway distances supplement that is an addendum to the ERSA it
gives also TODA, ASDA and LDA and a selection of STODA.
If there were obstacles off the end then the STODA with the associated
climb gradients would be used instead of the TODA.
As these vary from aeroplane to aeroplane depending on the number of
engines then it is up to the pilot to assess his actual take off
distance required and set his take off weight accordingly.
For Learmonth the distances are TORA 3047, TODA 3352; ASDA 3107 and LDA
3047.
There is no STODA as there arn't any obstacles, wild brumbies and
camels don't count.
TORA and LDA are the same and are the length of the tarred bit.
ASDA includes the tar plus 60m (about200ft) of stopway. (This is an
obstacle free area that will take the weight of the aeroplane without
damaging it in the event of an abort.On a normal take off the
aeroplanes wheels never touch it and this requirement limits its
available length.
TODA is the tarred bit plus clearway. (this is non bearing strength off
the end of the tar that is clear of obstacles) ( by definition the
stopway is also clearway but the clearway is never stopway)
Learmonth probably looked longer when you are trying to place a secure
perimeter around it, Brash. The illusion heightened by the flat terrain
and lack of features to give it some perspective.
cowboy