Elvis the Erickson Aircrane. Here's her daily $ rate.
Ben Wright
bk_schedule_type_1_may2001.pdf
then look for her, she's N171AC
Friend at work today said their house was saved by her yesterday. They'd
given up hope and were bailing, their house starting to smoke as a wall of
fire closed in on them. They were wondering if perhaps they'd left their
exit a fraction too late. Then WHOOSH - 9 tons of water from out of the sky
and their troubles were over. It completely took them by surprise, Elvis
came without warning, they didn't hear the approach, nor do they recall its
departure. They just recall a sudden drenching by a miraculas river of
quenching water. Apparently the 9 tons was just enough to do the trick, the
fire raged on down the valley, but no longer about their houses.
They said the release was perfectly done, right onto the 3 house, not a
litre wasted. They recall a bloke turning up with a GPS, somehow it was
linked to the chopper, something about the actual release of water being
automatic, the pilot just has to fly over the co-ord and the computer does
the release?
By my calculations, for this bird to break even, she only has to save 1
property every 6 days. Clearly, at her current rate, the insurance companies
are well ahead. No wonder Howards speaking of getting two.
Michael Butler
> By my calculations, for this bird to break even, she only has to save 1
> property every 6 days. Clearly, at her current rate, the insurance companies
> are well ahead. No wonder Howards speaking of getting two.
But how do the numbers stack up log term. If one was stationed in NSW
permanently at $US28,000 per day that runs out to about $20M AUD per
year. Assume it is used once every 3 years then it has to save $60M
in each bush fire to be cost effective. This is still going to give
a positive rate of return but I think other options would work out
better. If the Skycrane was used just for December to March then
cost comes down to $20M but that relies on being able to charter one
when you want.
The smoke has reached Wellington now - really murky today but
we should get a southerly on Friday that will blow it all away.
I hope the NZ helicopter that crossed the ditch today gets
to save few more houses.
--
Mike Butler Wellington NZ
Ben BC X New Zealand Dog Agility on the Web
Ella Kelpie http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~mbutler/nala/
John Eacott
"Michael Butler" <mbu...@ihug.co.nz> wrote in message news:3C32DFF7...@ihug.co.nz...
>
> But how do the numbers stack up log term. If one was stationed in NSW
> permanently at $US28,000 per day that runs out to about $20M AUD per
> year. Assume it is used once every 3 years then it has to save $60M
> in each bush fire to be cost effective. This is still going to give
> a positive rate of return but I think other options would work out
> better. If the Skycrane was used just for December to March then
> cost comes down to $20M but that relies on being able to charter one
> when you want.
10 week contract, approx $US8k/day/flying hour.
> I hope the NZ helicopter that crossed the ditch today gets
> to save few more houses.
ZYZ was doing famil flights around the joint this afternoon, don't know when it'll be operational.
--
John Eacott
The Helicopter Service Australia
www.helicopterservice.com.au
Ben Wright
> permanently at $US28,000 per day that runs out to about $20M AUD per
> year.
Yea, I thought about that $20M and then dismissed it, no way is it going to
cost that much. The clue's in the next column over, which indicates
negotiable rates.
My guess is when its operational it costs $60K a day, doing a full day of
work. Lets see if the ball parks work out here. Presume a 12 hour day with
two crew doing 6 hours shifts. That's $5,000 an hour - smells about right to
me as a small chopper costs about $1K to $2K and hour. So $60K a day is in
the ball park.
How much fire work is the thing going to get in a Northern American winter?
...Bugger all....
It gets shipped down to Australia in its off season, to sit it out at an
Aussy airport instead of a Canadian airport. A relatively small retainer is
paid to keep the crew here on standbye. My guess is you'd could get the
thing here for a couple of million bucks a season. Only paying $60K a day
when it gets put into the air.
Is $5M a year worth it?
Consider the dollar saving from that single dump, onto my friends house and
their neigbours. That one dump saved the insurance companies about $1M. If
it saves that kind of money, every time it dumps, then we're talking about
$10M to $50M a day. Those kind of savings, in just one day, it makes a
pretty sound business case, even if its only used 1 year in 10.
It aint going to be $20M a season. More like $5M - if that.
JollyGreenGiant
and they can do around 120mph i think so they are really fast..
Tornado wrote:
>
> If they were stationed in the east and were needed in Perth, how easy would
> it be for it to get here how quick?
>
> As mentioned in other posts, we don't have Really Bad fires every year so if
> it was able to go from hotspot to hotspot would it make it worth while?
>
> --
> Mark - Maddington
> Western Australia
>
> "Patience my Arse...I'm gonna kill somthin'"
>
> "You can run...but you'll only die tired"
>
> "John Eacott" <eac...@helicopterservice.com.au> wrote in message
> news:_lBY7.19$jY....@nsw.nnrp.telstra.net...
Stealth Pilot
<so...@ihug.com.au> wrote:
>the ex US ARMY S-64 Skycrane have a 100 mph downdraft last time i looked
>and they can do around 120mph i think so they are really fast..
>
>
>Tornado wrote:
>>
>> If they were stationed in the east and were needed in Perth, how easy would
>> it be for it to get here how quick?
>>
120 mph is roughly 104 knots
crossed australia twice last year at 110 knots. it takes two days
flying.
would need well over 400 nautical mile range to be able to safely make
each leg.
as I see it not practical to have all at one base.
Stealth Pilot
>> As mentioned in other posts, we don't have Really Bad fires every year so if
>> it was able to go from hotspot to hotspot would it make it worth while?
>>
only if it was packed in a C5A Galaxy for the bulk of the trip.
John Eacott
"Ben Wright" <benwr...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:lPCY7.29055$wD1.1...@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> > If one was stationed in NSW
snip
>
> It gets shipped down to Australia in its off season, to sit it out at an
> Aussy airport instead of a Canadian airport.
Repeat after me, it is not Canadian. Neither Erickson, nor Sikorsky, are Canadian, nor are the
crews. Although they take it with good humour, Kenny Chapman & Co. are getting fed up with this
misconception here in Australia.
James Gray
However, wouldn't a fleet (say 3 or 4) multi-role amphibious aeroplanes be a
better option? Lets say maybe a machine that can do fire-bombing in the
summer, coastal surveillance, SAR, and maybe aerial survey work with a ferry
speed of around 200kts, range of well over 2000km. But who makes such a
year-round, versatile, still-in-production machine??
Have a look at the Canadair CL-415 Multi-role. It has been designed from
the drawing board to handle all of the above, all day, everyday. The bonus
for Oz is that the majority of aerial fire-bombing procedures for these
machines have already been done by other agencies in the USA, Europe, and
parts of Asia. Who the hell uses SkyCranes?? There were only ever a few of
them made :-/.
But it would be typical of the government to purchase a fleet of inflexible
(compared with the CL-415 roles/capabilities), expensive, out-of-production
helicopters when a better alternative was available.
Just my thoughts. Glad your friend's house was saved and well done to the
SkyCrane crew! Now that the real effectiveness of aerial fire-bombing is
being realised lets see if we can capitalise on the government's enthusiasm
and buy the BEST machine, not just "any" machine (maybe even a mix of Elvis
and CL-415's??).
Cheers,
James
"Ben Wright" <benwr...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:QyAY7.28500$wD1.1...@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
Patrick Dunford
Jan 2002 07:57:25 +1100, James Gray(james-spa...@ozemail.com.au)
said...
> Agreed. The savings in terms of property and land that isn't burnt is huge.
> However, wouldn't a fleet (say 3 or 4) multi-role amphibious aeroplanes be a
> better option? Lets say maybe a machine that can do fire-bombing in the
> summer, coastal surveillance, SAR, and maybe aerial survey work with a ferry
> speed of around 200kts, range of well over 2000km. But who makes such a
> year-round, versatile, still-in-production machine??
>
> Have a look at the Canadair CL-415 Multi-role. It has been designed from
> the drawing board to handle all of the above, all day, everyday. The bonus
> for Oz is that the majority of aerial fire-bombing procedures for these
> machines have already been done by other agencies in the USA, Europe, and
> parts of Asia. Who the hell uses SkyCranes?? There were only ever a few of
> them made :-/.
>
> But it would be typical of the government to purchase a fleet of inflexible
> (compared with the CL-415 roles/capabilities), expensive, out-of-production
> helicopters when a better alternative was available.
No they might take into consideration that the Erickson Company has
produced these helicopters since 1992 and that they can be used in many
roles.
Rotors
perhaps the Feds could get one of these bit of kit or three.
Govt to Govt deals are cheaper and if its going to be on teh VH register
then let them pay for the certification.
Could be leased to DOD on certain tasks to take hours and pressure of the
Ch47 fleet .
Save the expense of hiring Russian monsters in Timor etc.
The Sky crane is a VERY versatile bit of kit .
Over here in the west probably could find a few hundred hours work in non
fire related tasks .
With those gullible bankers willing to fund PBH (power by hour is not all
that bad an option)
In places like Tassie where Hot * high is believe it or not a consideration
maybe another 200 hours of work
we could all chip in a few hours for it to hover over Pretzels abode :)
Perhaps ?
Its a logistics machine and partners like TNT Toll Brambles etc would find
maybe another 300 hours a year.
But Govt on Cost recovery would be the best operator.
Hell the Chooks have been used on a few occasions because of their unique
lift capability.
and DOD I recall charged them out at about 4 to 6 grand an hour .
Not a silly idea but certainly a courageous one commercially , to tie up
that much capital
on an Orphan machine. Although would make one hell of a crop sprayer up in
the Cotton areas :)
Thinking on the fly uses at say Xmas island plonking Conex and container
housing etc
would be Ideal . ANARE is another likely Govt user of this considering the
work that's coming up in Macquarie Island and Mawson base . Yeah thinking on
it there is possibly enough work (just) to warrant a feasibility study
by some public servant somewhere.
I could live more comfortably with my tax dollars going to this asset than
some other schemes said to
be under Govt Control.
Would it fit on Kanimbla type ships I wonder?
In PNG certainly would come into its own .
Just my 2 cents while in a hurry
--
You Can get to the weekly pics page from here
http://www.angelfire.com/ab3/caption/link.html
http://cleaver.freeyellow.com/sad.html
Ted Harrison
>Although they take it with good humour, Kenny Chapman & Co. are getting fed
> up with this
> misconception here in Australia.
Aren't they responsible for their own corporate image?
Ted Harrison
"breach" <Use-Author-Address-Header@[127.1]> wrote in message
news:2002010301...@taxismtp2.alchemyfx.com...
> It's perfectly capable of earning it's keep doing things
> other than fighting fires.
That's a big call ... for anything that flies.
Ted Harrison
"John Eacott" <eac...@helicopterservice.com.au> wrote in message
news:HsJY7.2$f31...@nsw.nnrp.telstra.net...
>
>
Canadian, nor are the
> crews. Although they take it with good humour, Kenny Chapman & Co. are
getting fed up with this
> misconception here in Australia.
Finally caught up with the situation. <S.A.T.>
I guess we can blame this mob:
http://www.air-crane.com/links.html
Sister Blue
<ha...@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
>
>"John Eacott" <eac...@helicopterservice.com.au> wrote in message
>news:HsJY7.2$f31...@nsw.nnrp.telstra.net...
>>
>>
>> Repeat after me, it is not Canadian.
>
drum up business but I would have thought they'd be trying to keep
this deadly downdraft flaw in their makeup under wraps.
Get a look at these - and thats over water - can you imagine it trying
to pickle a standing hollow tree - as we've been led to believe is the
precision advantage helos have over fixed wing?
http://www.air-crane.com/images/siksc81.jpg
http://www.air-crane.com/images/siksc82.jpg
Like a mini cyclone - someone reckons from Elvis it introduces a 100
mph vertical gale fanning the fire.
Absolute madness!
JollyGreenGiant
it was known 40yrs yrs ago in a war called VIETNAM that the hurricane
wind from the CH-54 was bad but hey people now days dont care about
history or bother to read it
Sister Blue wrote:
>
> On Thu, 03 Jan 2002 11:17:30 GMT, "Ted Harrison"
> <ha...@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
> >
> >"John Eacott" <eac...@helicopterservice.com.au> wrote in message
> >news:HsJY7.2$f31...@nsw.nnrp.telstra.net...
> >>
> >>
> >> Repeat after me, it is not Canadian.
> >
> > I guess we can blame this mob:
> >
> >http://www.air-crane.com/links.html
> >
> Whooooahh - just starting to get a feel today for how these helo boys
> drum up business but I would have thought they'd be trying to keep
> this deadly downdraft flaw in their makeup under wraps.
> Like a mini cyclone - someone reckons from Elvis it introduces a 100
> mph vertical gale fanning the fire.
>
> Absolute madness!
--
Ted Harrison
"Sister Blue" <head....@medscape.com> wrote in message
news:3c345a9d...@news.optusnet.com.au...
> http://www.air-crane.com/images/siksc81.jpg
> http://www.air-crane.com/images/siksc82.jpg
>
> Like a mini cyclone - someone reckons from Elvis it introduces a 100
> mph vertical gale fanning the fire.
>
> Absolute madness!
>
Ah, Gladys, you little troll you ... I see you've come back for more.
Hate to see a girl sulk at home just because she got thoroughly gang-banged
last time she came to the dancehall. <GRIN>
But, as I say, you're *back*. <WINK>
Nah, Sister Blue, any fool knows they don't fan the fires.
They blow them out.
John Eacott
> drum up business but I would have thought they'd be trying to keep
> this deadly downdraft flaw in their makeup under wraps.
>
> Get a look at these - and thats over water - can you imagine it trying
> to pickle a standing hollow tree - as we've been led to believe is the
> precision advantage helos have over fixed wing?
>
> http://www.air-crane.com/images/siksc81.jpg
> http://www.air-crane.com/images/siksc82.jpg
>
> Like a mini cyclone - someone reckons from Elvis it introduces a 100
> mph vertical gale fanning the fire.
>
> Absolute madness!
So you use a light/medium for hover drops, and keep the Skycrane on other work. Or have I missed
something here?
Dave
>to pickle a standing hollow tree - as we've been led to believe is the
>precision advantage helos have over fixed wing?
>Like a mini cyclone - someone reckons from Elvis it introduces a 100
>mph vertical gale fanning the fire.
>Absolute madness!
What would be madness my friend is using a 9000lt drop of water to put out a
"standing hollow tree". That's not what it's designed for. Read the original
post and you'll see what it's good at.
DM
Ben Wright
"John Howard, to pay the transportation costs, while the State Government
would pick up the $500,000 bill for their 10-week lease, as well as
operating costs of about $12,000 an hour."
So its 10X cheaper than my ball park estimate. At the rate its saving
houses, its a wonder we don't get more than just two!?!
Andrew Puddifer
When he was interviewed here at Marsfield after seeing the Skycane in
operation he said something like we are buying 2 of these, no matter
what they cost, I will sign the cheque. Then it was if the experts think
they are worth having, we will look into buying some. Now, it's we'll
lease them briefly. And all will be forgotten in 6 months.
Regards, Andrew.
Martin Taylor
BW> Friend at work today said their house was saved by her yesterday.
BW> They'd given up hope and were bailing, their house starting to smoke as
BW> a wall of fire closed in on them. They were wondering if perhaps they'd
BW> left their exit a fraction too late. Then WHOOSH - 9 tons of water from
BW> out of the sky and their troubles were over. It completely took them by
That'd be a spectacular site to see, up close and personal. I saw what
40 tons of water can do when a water tank at work ruptured once.
------------------------------------------------------------
real email address (mta...@austarnett.com.au)
But, take out a "t" for email reply
Tony Paton
ahennell
just _part_ of the fire suppression weaponry being used. Also spare a thought
for the many other helicopters dropping buckets of water with just as much
precision, if not as much volume. These guys are well trained and very
effective, yet are suddenly forgotten in the wash of 9,000 litres dropping from
the sky.
Also, don't forget that despite what impressive equipment is in the Media's eye
at the time, the real heroes are the men & women who stand in the path of the
fire & fight it. Without them, Elvis & friends wouldn't make a difference.
Cheers,
Andrew (returning to a firefront shortly)
----------------------------------------------------------
NSWSES - Training Officer, Ashfield Leichhardt unit
Australian Emergency Services Volunteers Network ( www.aesvn.org ) - Founder
Tony Paton
>
>Also, don't forget that despite what impressive equipment is in the Media's eye
>at the time, the real heroes are the men & women who stand in the path of the
>fire & fight it. Without them, Elvis & friends wouldn't make a difference.
>
is not the be all and end all.
Dave Kearton
"Tony Paton" <to...@tpg.com.au> wrote in message
news:t2uc3ugabp47hdk6b...@4ax.com...
The important thing is that Elvis and his cousins will add an extra margin
of safety for the troops on the ground.
Dave K
Patrick Dunford
Fri, 04 Jan 2002 23:14:35 +1100, Andrew Puddifer(typ...@ihug.com.au)
said...
> ANd it's funny to hear Bob Carr backpeddling on buying them as well.
> When he was interviewed here at Marsfield after seeing the Skycane in
> operation he said something like we are buying 2 of these, no matter
> what they cost, I will sign the cheque. Then it was if the experts think
> they are worth having, we will look into buying some. Now, it's we'll
> lease them briefly. And all will be forgotten in 6 months.
If you go to airliners.net and air-crane.com / erickson-aircrane.com you
find they have been used in Australia on firefighting a number of times.
Sister Blue
<ha...@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
>
>"Sister Blue" <head....@medscape.com> wrote in message
>news:3c345a9d...@news.optusnet.com.au...
>
>> http://www.air-crane.com/images/siksc81.jpg
>> http://www.air-crane.com/images/siksc82.jpg
>>
>> Like a mini cyclone - someone reckons from Elvis it introduces a 100
>> mph vertical gale fanning the fire.
>>
>> Absolute madness!
>>
>
>Ah, Gladys, you little troll you ... I see you've come back for more.
>
Yes, been away - had to give the Bishop a hand with his annual
Christmas service.
>Hate to see a girl sulk at home just because she got thoroughly gang-banged
>last time she came to the dancehall. <GRIN>
>
You'd think those ruffian sailors would have shown a little more
respect to a girl in uniform wouldn't you?.
Sister Blue
RT
Ted Harrison <ha...@bigpond.net.au> wrote in message
news:OD0Z7.31773$wD1.1...@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
Ted - c'mon - She's Petzl/Roddles in drag - don't get sucked in(/off)
David Bromage
> Just back and going through this thread . thinking about a sky crane .
> perhaps the Feds could get one of these bit of kit or three.
Elvis has helped a number of construction projects, including
replacing a television transmission tower.
However, I still think you'd be hard pressed to justify buying any.
Sensible thing would be to lease 2-3 of them during the northern
winter.
Cheers
David