Getting area QNH info...FS again
John Visser
When flying VFR the most immediate requirement I
quess when departing an aerodrome (apart from
making one's radio traffic calls) is that you get
QNH from FS. What I do, which also gave traffic to
the surrounding area is include a departure report
on the CTAF/MBZ boundary outbound on area
frequency and ask for QNH e.g. "All stations Long
Reach, ABC, a VFR Mooney, departed LRE at 24,
2,500 feet on climb 7,500, track 179; break BN
request area QNH". If BN was listening I would get
after a slight pause, the QNH for my area.
Sometimes I would have to repeat my location.
However, when I transferred to SY controllers I
got a slightly different version: "QNH for area
20, north of a line from Wykikamookow and
Didjabringaneeralong is 1015, and south of that
line 1012 after 0200." The cockpit rapidly fills
up with maps as I try to find out where those
locations are - and more often than not I am
unable to find them. Why can I NOT get a pure QNH
for my area for my time for my operation????
With respect to those old hands in FS, but the
impression that I got from some that there was
little understanding of the workload that can go
on in the cockpit - the above is NOT acceptable in
a high workload single pilot IFR situation, hand
flying.
Cheers
John
--
John Visser Photography
Weddings, Parties, (almost) Anything...
http://www5.zipworld.com.au/~jv
Jason Carley
it from. No real need to ask for an Area QNH unless the area forecast is
outdated.
Regards,
Jason.
John Visser <j...@zipworld.com.au> wrote in message
news:37F57090...@zipworld.com.au...
> Another FS query....
Sandy
trip to Nthn NSW. Only forgot to c/x SAR once. I think this new CENSAR
system stinks; it was much easier to do it with the bloke to who you
were talking! However, it will save us heaps of cash eventually.
My ploy to forestall John's situation is the say that I'm tracking from
X to Y and what Area QNH do I use? it worked for me with all parties.
> However, when I transferred to SY controllers I
> got a slightly different version: "QNH for area
> 20, north of a line from Wykikamookow and
> Didjabringaneeralong is 1015, and south of that
> line 1012 after 0200." The cockpit rapidly fills
> up with maps as I try to find out where those
> locations are - and more often than not I am
> unable to find them. Why can I NOT get a pure QNH
> for my area for my time for my operation????
Tongue in cheek; because you're not paying big bucks and they can't be
bothered?
> With respect to those old hands in FS, but the
> impression that I got from some that there was
> little understanding of the workload that can go
> on in the cockpit - the above is NOT acceptable in
> a high workload single pilot IFR situation, hand
> flying.
My good mate Doug Stott will tell you [and I'm right with him!] that the
procedures for use in Class G airspace have rarely been trialled or
consulted [most RAPAC's told 'them' what would happen with the Class G
NSW trial, but no-one listened!] the one party left out of most of this
is the single-pilot IFR guy in Class G.
Cheers
Sandy
--
Sandy Howard
Sydney, Australia
Reply to: san...@hartingdale.com.au
Sandy
trip to Nthn NSW.
BTW: Only forgot to c/x SAR once. I think this new CENSAR system
stinks; it was much easier to do it with the bloke to who you were
talking! However, it will save us heaps of cash eventually.
My ploy to forestall John's situation is the say that I'm tracking from
X to Y and what Area QNH do I use? It worked for me with all parties.
ramblin' man
information in the area forecast.
The bureau have a series of Area QNH Zones (AQZ) and they forecast the QNH
for those
zones. There are rules regarding how often the forecast QNH must be updated
and by how much it
can differ from any actual measured QNH in the AQZ. If there is a steep
pressure gradient then they will
divide the QNH north and south of a line in an area for example. This is why
the old FS hands will usually
as mentioned in the earlier post issue the Area QNH for the Longreach area.
The second issue raised relates
to the fact that whilst the FS or ATC may know where you are when requesting
the Area QNH they do not
necessarily know where you are going. In a modern fast single it is quite
possible to cross several Area QNH
divisions in pretty short order. As I recall, a max difference of 5 hPa is
permissable between divisions so if you were
simply given the Area QNH for Goulburn and flew two hours and crossed two
divisions on that Area QNH you
could be 300 feet out on altitude, if you encountered someone coming the
other way who had started out and not updated
you could potentially have one aircraft at an indicated 7000ft who was
actually above one indicating 7500ft. I've always
found that stating your location and either direction of travel or next
destination will usually supply sufficient information for the
FSO or ATC to provide the relevant QNH.
Jason Carley <jca...@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:7t4gdd$rju$1...@news1.mpx.com.au...
> Why don't you just use the area forecast? That is where flight service
gets
> it from. No real need to ask for an Area QNH unless the area forecast is
> outdated.
>
> Regards,
>
> Jason.
>
>
>
> John Visser <j...@zipworld.com.au> wrote in message
> news:37F57090...@zipworld.com.au...
> > Another FS query....
> > Reach, ABC, a VFR Mooney, departed LRE at 24,
> > 2,500 feet on climb 7,500, track 179; break BN
> > request area QNH". If BN was listening I would get
> > after a slight pause, the QNH for my area.
> > Sometimes I would have to repeat my location.
> >
John Visser
Sandy wrote:
> At the risk of replying to successive posts, I've just returned from a
> trip to Nthn NSW. Only forgot to c/x SAR once. I think this new CENSAR
> system stinks; it was much easier to do it with the bloke to who you
> were talking! However, it will save us heaps of cash eventually.
>
> My ploy to forestall John's situation is the say that I'm tracking from
> X to Y and what Area QNH do I use? it worked for me with all parties.
It worked for me too - the whole trip until I got south of Charleville...
John Visser
thought of that - are you sure that it _is_ forcast QNH that they are quoting
and not actual???
Cheers
John
Jason Carley wrote:
> Why don't you just use the area forecast? That is where flight service gets
> it from. No real need to ask for an Area QNH unless the area forecast is
> outdated.
>
> Regards,
>
> Jason.
>
> John Visser <j...@zipworld.com.au> wrote in message
> news:37F57090...@zipworld.com.au...
> > Another FS query....
> > Reach, ABC, a VFR Mooney, departed LRE at 24,
> > 2,500 feet on climb 7,500, track 179; break BN
> > request area QNH". If BN was listening I would get
> > after a slight pause, the QNH for my area.
> > Sometimes I would have to repeat my location.
> >
> > However, when I transferred to SY controllers I
> > got a slightly different version: "QNH for area
> > 20, north of a line from Wykikamookow and
> > Didjabringaneeralong is 1015, and south of that
> > line 1012 after 0200." The cockpit rapidly fills
> > up with maps as I try to find out where those
> > locations are - and more often than not I am
> > unable to find them. Why can I NOT get a pure QNH
> > for my area for my time for my operation????
--
ramblin' man
forecast QNH details coming in on a
printer and a person preparing maps showing the forecast divisions and the
figures. They were definitely forecast and
updated 4 hourly. I'm not an authority so if it has changed I will be glad
of correction.news:37F63050...@zipworld.com.au...
Sandy
> Why don't you just use the area forecast? That is where flight service gets
> it from. No real need to ask for an Area QNH unless the area forecast is
> outdated.
Morning All,
To add to 'Ramblin's comments and apologise for the earlier double post;
The hassle I usually have is that the Area QNH on the Arfor is not valid for a
long enough period to cover my use. I often plan at 0530L using the early
morning forecast, but for a 1000L departure and travel flight, the Area QNH
given on the Arfor has expired [it's not valid for the entire period.]
AFAIK, ATS officers use the forecast figures which are updated by BuMet.
Boyd Moody
wrote:
>With respect Jason, unless things have changed they don't use the
>information in the area forecast.
>The bureau have a series of Area QNH Zones (AQZ) and they forecast the QNH
>for those
>zones.
Refer to AUS- PCA - Planning Chart Australia for the depiction of the
Area Forecast/Area QNH Zone Boundaries. Specific forecasts for these
areas are made by the Met office and cover 3 hour periods.
>There are rules regarding how often the forecast QNH must be updated
>and by how much it
>can differ from any actual measured QNH in the AQZ.
Adjacent zones/subzones my not differ my more than 5 Hpa.
>If there is a steep
>pressure gradient then they will
>divide the QNH north and south of a line in an area for example.
And the met office uses the locations on the PCA. regardless of how
remote your or I think the location is. eg, YHRD and YBRR are quite
commonly used by Met.
>This is why
>the old FS hands will usually
>as mentioned in the earlier post issue the Area QNH for the Longreach area.
>The second issue raised relates
>to the fact that whilst the FS or ATC may know where you are when requesting
>the Area QNH they do not
>necessarily know where you are going.
When John departed LRE he gave a heads up as to where he was going and
the QNH was passed accordingly. When John changed frequency to SY he
possibly just changed the freq. and listened in if he was VFR. If John
did not give some indication of his track and was VFR, the FSO has no
idea what he was intending to do. A sartime is only held by CENSAR or
the console to which the destination is located in. Intermediate
sectors have no knowledge of the sartime/VFR flight.....Till you
upgrade to IFR....
> In a modern fast single it is quite
>possible to cross several Area QNH
>divisions in pretty short order.
>Snip of good stuff.
Don't prattle on about every little detail about your flight as some
pilots do. Where you are now and where you are going is plenty for a
pop-up QHN request.
Cheers
Boyd Moody
>Jason Carley <jca...@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
>news:7t4gdd$rju$1...@news1.mpx.com.au...
>> Why don't you just use the area forecast? That is where flight service
>gets
>> it from. No real need to ask for an Area QNH unless the area forecast is
>> outdated.
>>
Boyd Moody
wrote:
>You know you might have a point here - if that is where they get it from. Never
>
>thought of that - are you sure that it _is_ forcast QNH that they are quoting
>and not actual???
>
>Cheers
>
>John
Absolutely positive. It come from specific met forecasts for areas
defined in PCA.
Boyd Moody
wrote:
>At the risk of replying to successive posts, I've just returned from a
>trip to Nthn NSW. Only forgot to c/x SAR once. I think this new CENSAR
>system stinks; it was much easier to do it with the bloke to who you
>were talking! However, it will save us heaps of cash eventually.
It is no easier from out point of view either Sandy. As for saving you
cash......."tell him he's dreamin"
>
>My ploy to forestall John's situation is the say that I'm tracking from
>X to Y and what Area QNH do I use? it worked for me with all parties.
Good advice. It works for me too.
>> However, when I transferred to SY controllers I
>> got a slightly different version: "QNH for area
>> 20, north of a line from Wykikamookow and
>> Didjabringaneeralong is 1015, and south of that
>> line 1012 after 0200." The cockpit rapidly fills
>> up with maps as I try to find out where those
>> locations are - and more often than not I am
>> unable to find them. Why can I NOT get a pure QNH
>> for my area for my time for my operation????
>
>Tongue in cheek; because you're not paying big bucks and they can't be
>bothered?
Bullshit Sandy.......He had to put down his coffee and/or piece of
sticky bun.......and you have to pay for that!!!! :-))
>> With respect to those old hands in FS, but the
>> impression that I got from some that there was
>> little understanding of the workload that can go
>> on in the cockpit - the above is NOT acceptable in
>> a high workload single pilot IFR situation, hand
>> flying.
Most of us are pilots or have flying in our backgrounds too you know.
Just cause were on the other end of the mike does not mean that we do
not live in the real world. Outside of Baby sitting, University, Shift
work and computers, I have a life!!! ( when my wife lets me!)
>My good mate Doug Stott will tell you [and I'm right with him!] that the
>procedures for use in Class G airspace have rarely been trialled or
>consulted [most RAPAC's told 'them' what would happen with the Class G
>NSW trial, but no-one listened!] the one party left out of most of this
>is the single-pilot IFR guy in Class G.
You guys have only to wait and see the shit that is going to come your
way in the next 8 months. AA have annnounced that, among other things,
Directed traffic will cease being provided by FSOs by 30/7/2000 and no
HF will be available for third party communications. ATC will
supposedly provide DTI as well as separation in overlying airspace.
Take the northern half of the country for example. Presently there are
2 procedural and 1 radar ATC sectors and 7 FSO sectors. The ATC guys
are in overload mode with the Timor situation. AAs plan is for the
workload from the underlying 7 FSO sectors to be added to only 3,
overloaded ATC sectors????? You tell me if it will work cause me and
the ATCS are stuffed if we can see how it will!
Cheers
Boyd Moody
Boyd Moody
wrote:
>
>
>Sandy wrote:
>
>> At the risk of replying to successive posts, I've just returned from a
>> trip to Nthn NSW. Only forgot to c/x SAR once. I think this new CENSAR
>> system stinks; it was much easier to do it with the bloke to who you
>> were talking! However, it will save us heaps of cash eventually.
>>
>> My ploy to forestall John's situation is the say that I'm tracking from
>> X to Y and what Area QNH do I use? it worked for me with all parties.
>
>It worked for me too - the whole trip until I got south of Charleville...
>
>Cheers
>
>John
Tongue in Cheek:
Sydney FS has never been the same since I left ! (Better or worse is
for you to judge!!!)
Cheers
Boyd Moody.
( Gees will I cop some Sh1t for that comment)
Doug Stott
service...
He used to be in Melb as you might know, and I remember many of his
stories from the old days, especially from the NT.
Might have to post one or two of the ones that I can remember..
cheers
Doug
Doug Stott
Getting the AREA QNH....!
My suggestions..... in no particular order...
1) If on a local flight not exceeding 50nm from base, use the QNH for
your departure aerodrome and say nothing to FS in terms of obtaining a
A/QNH. Wastes everyones time and blocks the frequency for no real gain.
Best value is to monitor the area FS/ATS frequency (or MBZ/CTAF etc)to
keep your situational awareness levels high. Pilots asking for
something they don't need does little for others situational awarness~!
2) If you need to ask for whatever reason....
"Melbourne ABC, Request Area QNH in the Bendigo area"
3) If you are on a travel flight which might cross various areas and you
have of course checked the ARFOR etc... then
"Melbourne, ABC, Bendigo for West Wyalong, request area QNH"
Further up the track you might ask again if you think there is a need
based on the info in the fcst.
ATS should of course give you what you ask for in simple terms...
Many of the old hands will use the phrase...
"Area QNH in Your area 1010" etc... this means that someone else
hearing such a transmission should only use that QNH if he/she hears the
area concerned.... otherwise it should be interpreted as being for that
aircraft only.
Of interest, none of this occurs in North America and they don't seem to
have any problems with pilots using the wrong QNH.... There are plenty
of sources to get local QNH's if operating VFR, many of them automatic.
They certainly don't ask for such info when on a local flight.
I bet you half the calls to FS from VFR aircraft out of Bankstown or
Moorabbin on the weekends are seeking the QNH. Yet they are only going
20 or 30 miles away....Whats wrong with the QNH at the departure
aerodrome??
Or do they just like the sound of their own voice???
My 2.5 cents worth...
cheers
Doug
Doug Stott
Sandy wrote:
>
snip of good stuff!
>
> My good mate Doug Stott will tell you [and I'm right with him!] that the
> procedures for use in Class G airspace have rarely been trialled or
> consulted [most RAPAC's told 'them' what would happen with the Class G
> NSW trial, but no-one listened!] the one party left out of most of this
> is the single-pilot IFR guy in Class G.
>
In regard to Class G procedures, as Boyd points out in another post it
is Airservices plan to intergrate the 'service' presently provided by
Flight Service (FS) into TAAATS by July next year. How and to what
extent this will occur and what levels of service (if any) are to be
provided are not yet established.
The first move in this direction is a meeting of Airservices and other
key represenatatives of industry that use Class G airspace in the next
week or so.
We will have to see more of the proposal on the table before further
comment however I understand that DTI will continue in G from a
controller in the TAAATS system. How this is to be achieved is yet to
be discussed.
Certainly the regional airline operating a Titan/Navajo or turbo prop in
G is of the opinion that they require a DTI of all IFR operations. It
is clear that in some areas of the country this may not be needed, but
in others it clearly is. The lines are being drawn on the charts as we
speak.
As for the SP IFR pilot... Nobody seems to care, as Sandy says..
Yes the next 8 months or so will be interesting.... Especially industry
education issues....
cheers
Doug
> Cheers
>
> Sandy
>
Jason Carley
know that ARFORs are updated every few hours but people requesting an area
QNH departing bankstown for Wollongong is just ridiculous. It is obviously
different if a long trip crosing several zones and taking several hours.
The common misconception that the number used is actual QNH leads to
significant wastage of frequencies.
ramblin' man <de...@yobnet.com> wrote in message
news:GAkJ3.31789$ei1....@newsfeeds.bigpond.com...
> With respect Jason, unless things have changed they don't use the
> information in the area forecast.
> The bureau have a series of Area QNH Zones (AQZ) and they forecast the QNH
> for those
> zones. There are rules regarding how often the forecast QNH must be
updated
> and by how much it
> can differ from any actual measured QNH in the AQZ. If there is a steep
Boyd Moody
<jca...@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
>But that is just the area QNH as it appears in the area forecast isn't it? I
>know that ARFORs are updated every few hours but people requesting an area
>QNH departing bankstown for Wollongong is just ridiculous. It is obviously
>different if a long trip crosing several zones and taking several hours.
>
>The common misconception that the number used is actual QNH leads to
>significant wastage of frequencies.
Nope, they are a separate forecast form the area forecast.
I think, and I could be wrong, that there is only QNH on the aerodrome
forecasts and not the Area Forecasts.
Cheers
Boyd.
Boyd Moody
<sto...@NOSPAM.mildura.net.au> wrote:
>No Boyd, Sydney FS will not be the same since Les Church left the
>service...
>He used to be in Melb as you might know, and I remember many of his
>stories from the old days, especially from the NT.
>
>Might have to post one or two of the ones that I can remember..
>
>cheers
>Doug
You might be hard pressed to find a ***printable*** Churchie story!!!.
He is one of lifes characters alright. I would want him as my lifeline
on "who wants to be a millionaire" too.
Cheers
Boyd.
Boyd Moody
<sto...@NOSPAM.mildura.net.au> wrote:
>
>Getting the AREA QNH....!
>
Snip.
>
>My 2.5 cents worth...
>
>cheers
>Doug
Spot on Doug. I would like a $ for every time that one pilot has
requested the QNH and then everyone else calling in succession
thereafter. Obviously cause it sounds like a good idea.
Cheers
Boyd.
Boyd Moody
Don
over such a distance of, say 30 miles (as below).
Regards
Don
Doug Stott wrote in message <37F6C3B0...@NOSPAM.mildura.net.au>...
Jason Carley
21 as the identifier and you will see that there is an area QNH at the end.
Regards,
Jason.
Jason Carley
of that occuring and the forecast QNH (as reported by FS) changing is low.
Keep in mind that 30 miles will take all of 18 minutes in your 152
(definitely a worst case aircraft).
Jason
Don <dma...@camtech.net.au> wrote in message
news:ixGJ3.3073$lE.1...@ozemail.com.au...
James Matthew Weber
<sto...@NOSPAM.mildura.net.au> wrote:
>ZERO !
>
>Don wrote:
>>
>> In a general sense, what is the likelihood of a substantial change in QNH
>> over such a distance of, say 30 miles (as below).
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Don
Defnitely not zero, but if there is a substantial change in QNH over
say 30 miles, you want to make sure that you are firmly on the ground,
and your aircraft is tied down.....
Doug Stott
Paul Groves
The QNH on the terminal forecasts (TAF) is only applicable in that terminal
area;
The Area QNH on the Area forecast (ARFOR) is only placed there as a
convenience and from what I understand the ARFOR is **not** re-issued or
amended if the Area QNH is. So you are best advised to get it off ATS as you
depart.
Additionally there is a problem of what AQ to use when operating near or
across AQ zone boundaries .... EML is a classic where I have seen 5 Area
QNHs apply within an area approximating the terminal area. By asking the
FSO, you will normally get the AQ that everyone else has got ... Mind you I
dont know what will happen when we're gone!!
cheers
Paul Groves
ol...@uq.net.au
Jason Carley <jca...@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:7t7e1o$pf5$1...@news1.mpx.com.au...
Paul Groves
Doug Stott <sto...@NOSPAM.mildura.net.au> wrote in message
news:37F6C3B0...@NOSPAM.mildura.net.au...
> My suggestions..... in no particular order...
>
> 1) If on a local flight not exceeding 50nm from base, use the QNH for
snip
50nm is way too far particularly for frontal weather but please listen out
for other pilots asking for the AQ and if it is applicable in your area, use
it without asking FS...
snip
> 3) If you are on a travel flight which might cross various areas and you
> have of course checked the ARFOR etc... then
> "Melbourne, ABC, Bendigo for West Wyalong, request area QNH"
> Further up the track you might ask again if you think there is a need
> based on the info in the fcst.
dont forget the benefit of putting your callsign and position on the SAR
tapes just in case, but please listen out first before you transmit your
position/request for AQ.
snip
> There are plenty of sources to get local QNH's if operating VFR, many of
them automatic.
The only actual QNHs come from Towers or the Metars (assuming that the AWS,
and the other equipment are reliable etc) the rest are forecast ...
snip
> Whats wrong with the QNH at the departure aerodrome??
> cheers
> Doug
Theoretically, nothing - if everyone else in the area is on it too.
Consideration was given to having larger Terminal QNH areas but it would
cause too much confusion for through flights. I think we're probably better
to stick with Area QNHs and "minor" use of the TAF QNH
CHeers
--
Paul Groves
ol...@uq.net.au
Paul Groves
Sandy <san...@hartingdale.com.au> wrote in message
news:37F5C553...@hartingdale.com.au...
> At the risk of replying to successive posts, I've just returned from a
> trip to Nthn NSW. Only forgot to c/x SAR once. I think this new CENSAR
> system stinks; it was much easier to do it with the bloke to who you
> were talking! However, it will save us heaps of cash eventually.
> Sandy Howard
> Sydney, Australia
> Reply to: san...@hartingdale.com.au
Hi Sandy;
I am not sure why you think it will save heaps of cash. How much do you
think it cost to arrange and cancel a Sartime in the old system? It was one
of the least workload intensive duties we had, and when we're gone, those
synergies for cost savings will go too. The double handling with CENSAR
sartimes is quite unbelieveable, so much so that many sartimes are still
held by the A/G FSO ... when I accept a SARTIME it takes me on average about
30seconds, when it is put into CENSAR - you're talking much longer times and
multiple handling. Including your time ... how much is that worth?
cheers
Paul Groves
ol...@uq.net.au
Doug Stott
From a practical point of view, using the local QNH on a 'local' flight
is the way to go. It should of course be within 5Mbs of the AQNH which
on the outside is 150ft... which for a VFR operation is quite ok.
This procedure works in the US, so I guess it should work here... after
all the Altimeters are the same....
James Matthew Weber wrote:
>
> On Mon, 04 Oct 1999 00:12:50 +1000, Doug Stott
> <sto...@NOSPAM.mildura.net.au> wrote:
>
John Visser
opinion. Will the SP be ignored again???
Cheers
John
Doug Stott wrote:
--
John Visser
Boyd Moody wrote:
> >This is why
> >the old FS hands will usually
> >as mentioned in the earlier post issue the Area QNH for the Longreach area.
> >The second issue raised relates
> >to the fact that whilst the FS or ATC may know where you are when requesting
> >the Area QNH they do not
> >necessarily know where you are going.
>
> When John departed LRE he gave a heads up as to where he was going and
Exactly.
> the QNH was passed accordingly. When John changed frequency to SY he
> possibly just changed the freq. and listened in if he was VFR. If John
Yes. Changed freq. on the boundary and kept a listening watch. Did not
necessarily talk unless there was a conflict with other aircraft. On long legs
might give an all stations traffic call somewhere in between - this I would
especially do if I have crossed remote areas and only just managed to get back
into radio range. My philosophy (and this might be misplaced) is that all radio
traffic is recorded and if I come to grief somewhere over the Simpson, that
information may help a rescue...
> did not give some indication of his track and was VFR, the FSO has no
> idea what he was intending to do. A sartime is only held by CENSAR or
> the console to which the destination is located in. Intermediate
> sectors have no knowledge of the sartime/VFR flight.....Till you
> upgrade to IFR....
So you give an all stations position report combined with a request for QNH.
Seems to me a logical thing to do out there...
> > In a modern fast single it is quite
> >possible to cross several Area QNH
> >divisions in pretty short order.
>
> >Snip of good stuff.
>
> Don't prattle on about every little detail about your flight as some
> pilots do. Where you are now and where you are going is plenty for a
> pop-up QHN request.
Yup I agree. If you do not need to talk, shut up. Most of the time pilots do
this. Actually it was interested to note when I heard RPT traffic heading for
where I was going, I would call PSN and EST if there was conflict. You could
almost hear them say "Where the hell did he come from????" Then we would talk,
updating times as required. I have to say here too, that I found the military to
be most effecient and polite - to the point where a C130 (Archer 913?) leaving
Tindal asked if he could go ahead of me on the runway as I entered the circuit...
Bit like an elephant asking where he can sit down!
>
>
> Cheers
>
> Boyd Moody
>
> >Jason Carley <jca...@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
> >news:7t4gdd$rju$1...@news1.mpx.com.au...
> >> Why don't you just use the area forecast? That is where flight service
> >gets
> >> it from. No real need to ask for an Area QNH unless the area forecast is
> >> outdated.
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >>
> >> Jason.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> John Visser <j...@zipworld.com.au> wrote in message
> >> news:37F57090...@zipworld.com.au...
> >> > Another FS query....
> >> > Reach, ABC, a VFR Mooney, departed LRE at 24,
> >> > 2,500 feet on climb 7,500, track 179; break BN
> >> > request area QNH". If BN was listening I would get
> >> > after a slight pause, the QNH for my area.
> >> > Sometimes I would have to repeat my location.
> >> >
> >> > However, when I transferred to SY controllers I
> >> > got a slightly different version: "QNH for area
> >> > 20, north of a line from Wykikamookow and
> >> > Didjabringaneeralong is 1015, and south of that
> >> > line 1012 after 0200." The cockpit rapidly fills
> >> > up with maps as I try to find out where those
> >> > locations are - and more often than not I am
> >> > unable to find them. Why can I NOT get a pure QNH
> >> > for my area for my time for my operation????
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
--
John Visser
at the other end - which may not be available. In one instance I requested a
cancelation of SAR overhead and I was told that I would have to do it with
Censar. I then told FS that I would have to extend SARTIME for another half
hour - FS thought about it and said they would ring through the cancelation
themselves. Personally I think it degrades the safety of the operation.
As for BK - you have to cancel SARTIME by phone via Censar - crazy...
Cheers
John
Boyd Moody wrote:
> On Sat, 02 Oct 1999 18:41:55 +1000, Sandy <san...@hartingdale.com.au>
> wrote:
>
> >At the risk of replying to successive posts, I've just returned from a
> >trip to Nthn NSW. Only forgot to c/x SAR once. I think this new CENSAR
> >system stinks; it was much easier to do it with the bloke to who you
> >were talking! However, it will save us heaps of cash eventually.
>
> It is no easier from out point of view either Sandy. As for saving you
> cash......."tell him he's dreamin"
>
> >
> >My ploy to forestall John's situation is the say that I'm tracking from
> >X to Y and what Area QNH do I use? it worked for me with all parties.
>
> Good advice. It works for me too.
>
> >> However, when I transferred to SY controllers I
> >> got a slightly different version: "QNH for area
> >> 20, north of a line from Wykikamookow and
> >> Didjabringaneeralong is 1015, and south of that
> >> line 1012 after 0200." The cockpit rapidly fills
> >> up with maps as I try to find out where those
> >> locations are - and more often than not I am
> >> unable to find them. Why can I NOT get a pure QNH
> >> for my area for my time for my operation????
> >
> >Tongue in cheek; because you're not paying big bucks and they can't be
> >bothered?
>
> Bullshit Sandy.......He had to put down his coffee and/or piece of
> sticky bun.......and you have to pay for that!!!! :-))
>
> >> With respect to those old hands in FS, but the
> >> impression that I got from some that there was
> >> little understanding of the workload that can go
> >> on in the cockpit - the above is NOT acceptable in
> >> a high workload single pilot IFR situation, hand
> >> flying.
>
> Most of us are pilots or have flying in our backgrounds too you know.
> Just cause were on the other end of the mike does not mean that we do
> not live in the real world. Outside of Baby sitting, University, Shift
> work and computers, I have a life!!! ( when my wife lets me!)
>
> >My good mate Doug Stott will tell you [and I'm right with him!] that the
> >procedures for use in Class G airspace have rarely been trialled or
> >consulted [most RAPAC's told 'them' what would happen with the Class G
> >NSW trial, but no-one listened!] the one party left out of most of this
> >is the single-pilot IFR guy in Class G.
>
> You guys have only to wait and see the shit that is going to come your
> way in the next 8 months. AA have annnounced that, among other things,
> Directed traffic will cease being provided by FSOs by 30/7/2000 and no
> HF will be available for third party communications. ATC will
> supposedly provide DTI as well as separation in overlying airspace.
>
> Take the northern half of the country for example. Presently there are
> 2 procedural and 1 radar ATC sectors and 7 FSO sectors. The ATC guys
> are in overload mode with the Timor situation. AAs plan is for the
> workload from the underlying 7 FSO sectors to be added to only 3,
> overloaded ATC sectors????? You tell me if it will work cause me and
> the ATCS are stuffed if we can see how it will!
>
> Cheers
>
> Boyd Moody
--
John Visser
Doug Stott wrote:
> Getting the AREA QNH....!
>
> My suggestions..... in no particular order...
>
> 1) If on a local flight not exceeding 50nm from base, use the QNH for
> your departure aerodrome and say nothing to FS in terms of obtaining a
> A/QNH. Wastes everyones time and blocks the frequency for no real gain.
> Best value is to monitor the area FS/ATS frequency (or MBZ/CTAF etc)to
> keep your situational awareness levels high. Pilots asking for
> something they don't need does little for others situational awarness~!
BK QNH (actual) can vary generally by up to 5 HP (usually 3 or so) to the
area QNH (forcast) when transferring to 121.1
> 2) If you need to ask for whatever reason....
> "Melbourne ABC, Request Area QNH in the Bendigo area"
Good practise
> 3) If you are on a travel flight which might cross various areas and you
> have of course checked the ARFOR etc... then
> "Melbourne, ABC, Bendigo for West Wyalong, request area QNH"
> Further up the track you might ask again if you think there is a need
> based on the info in the fcst.
I might combine a PSN report here as well - combining trafic for other
aircraft. Other VFR aircraft might be in the area.
"Melbourne and all stations Bendigo, ABC 5 nm north of Bendigo maintaining
7,500 for West Wyalong, request QNH." Especially important when tracking
near an intersection or station.
> ATS should of course give you what you ask for in simple terms...
> Many of the old hands will use the phrase...
> "Area QNH in Your area 1010" etc... this means that someone else
> hearing such a transmission should only use that QNH if he/she hears the
> area concerned.... otherwise it should be interpreted as being for that
> aircraft only.
Totally agree.
> Of interest, none of this occurs in North America and they don't seem to
> have any problems with pilots using the wrong QNH.... There are plenty
> of sources to get local QNH's if operating VFR, many of them automatic.
> They certainly don't ask for such info when on a local flight.
I do when tracking up the light aircraft lane in SY. VCA's are scary!
> I bet you half the calls to FS from VFR aircraft out of Bankstown or
> Moorabbin on the weekends are seeking the QNH. Yet they are only going
> 20 or 30 miles away....Whats wrong with the QNH at the departure
> aerodrome??
> Or do they just like the sound of their own voice???
Can differ - BK actual, FS uses forcast. When operating up the lane or very
close to CTA, want as accurate as possible QNH as used by all others. Does
everybody use BK QNH or do they use FS?. (Short of calling up SY Terminal
and asking! They'd shoot me!)
Cheers
John
John Visser
calling up Approach and asking for QNH, you want to be using QNH that everybody
else will be using, which is gained from FS. Which can vary from airport (actual
QNH)
Cheers
John
Jason Carley wrote:
> But that is just the area QNH as it appears in the area forecast isn't it? I
> know that ARFORs are updated every few hours but people requesting an area
> QNH departing bankstown for Wollongong is just ridiculous. It is obviously
> different if a long trip crosing several zones and taking several hours.
>
> The common misconception that the number used is actual QNH leads to
> significant wastage of frequencies.
>
> ramblin' man <de...@yobnet.com> wrote in message
> news:GAkJ3.31789$ei1....@newsfeeds.bigpond.com...
> > With respect Jason, unless things have changed they don't use the
> > information in the area forecast.
> > The bureau have a series of Area QNH Zones (AQZ) and they forecast the QNH
> > for those
> > zones. There are rules regarding how often the forecast QNH must be
> updated
> > and by how much it
> > can differ from any actual measured QNH in the AQZ. If there is a steep
> > pressure gradient then they will
--
John Visser
Cheers
John
Paul Groves wrote:
> Hi Gents;
>
> The QNH on the terminal forecasts (TAF) is only applicable in that terminal
> area;
> The Area QNH on the Area forecast (ARFOR) is only placed there as a
> convenience and from what I understand the ARFOR is **not** re-issued or
> amended if the Area QNH is. So you are best advised to get it off ATS as you
> depart.
>
> Additionally there is a problem of what AQ to use when operating near or
> across AQ zone boundaries .... EML is a classic where I have seen 5 Area
> QNHs apply within an area approximating the terminal area. By asking the
> FSO, you will normally get the AQ that everyone else has got ... Mind you I
> dont know what will happen when we're gone!!
>
> cheers
>
> Paul Groves
> ol...@uq.net.au
>
> Jason Carley <jca...@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
> news:7t7e1o$pf5$1...@news1.mpx.com.au...
> > No, check out http://www.airservices.gov.au/Apps/Briefing/briefing.htm
> enter
> > 21 as the identifier and you will see that there is an area QNH at the
> end.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Jason.
> >
> > > I think, and I could be wrong, that there is only QNH on the aerodrome
> > > forecasts and not the Area Forecasts.
> >
> > >
> >
> >
--
John Visser
Doug Stott wrote:
>
> Or do they just like the sound of their own voice???
I think that is as much a training thing as anything else Doug - and a
"don't know anything better" factor.
Cheers
John
Boyd Moody
wrote:
>Yes. Changed freq. on the boundary and kept a listening watch. Did not
>necessarily talk unless there was a conflict with other aircraft. On long legs
>might give an all stations traffic call somewhere in between - this I would
>especially do if I have crossed remote areas and only just managed to get back
>into radio range. My philosophy (and this might be misplaced) is that all radio
>traffic is recorded and if I come to grief somewhere over the Simpson, that
>information may help a rescue...
Yep spot on. All freqs are recorded and the tapes kept for 30 days.
>So you give an all stations position report combined with a request for QNH.
>Seems to me a logical thing to do out there...
A call containing brief details is appropriate.
>Yup I agree. If you do not need to talk, shut up. Most of the time pilots do
>this. Actually it was interested to note when I heard RPT traffic heading for
>where I was going, I would call PSN and EST if there was conflict. You could
>almost hear them say "Where the hell did he come from????"
This is the problem of the ethos of our current aviation situation.
>Then we would talk,
>updating times as required. I have to say here too, that I found the military to
>be most effecient and polite - to the point where a C130 (Archer 913?) leaving
>Tindal asked if he could go ahead of me on the runway as I entered the circuit...
>Bit like an elephant asking where he can sit down!
But as a professional pilot it is the courteous thing to do.
Airmanship is often forgotten in our present day. Too many people
wanting to do what they want to when they want to and stuff everyone
else. Kind of like me driving to work really.....(for the record...I
DO OWN THE ROAD :-)))
Cheers
Boyd Moody
Mike Strates
> On long legs might give an all stations traffic call somewhere in between -
> this I would
I was told that it was a good idea to do your ...
"Mangalore All Stations, Ultralight Papa 093 is five nautical miles
southwest of the field at 550 feet"
calls very frequently on the CTAF. If everyone was so lax about reporting
(say, reporting once every hour), then what purpose does the CTAF serve? It
is for traffic avoidance, isn't it?
What you're saying goes against everything I've read ... One pilot I spoke
to told me to do your "All Stations" call every 15 minutes. I'm not talking
about doing the call every few minutes, which would be time-wasting and
annoying to all listeners.
Its to your own advantage, isn't it? Never mind if you tie up the radio for
a little bit longer. Your last radio call might be the call which saves your
life when your engine fails and your ELT fails to activate (we all have
ELTs, don't we? :-).
Sorry to go against what you're saying, but I'm just not sure if I agree.
What does CASA say about all this... I'll have a look through the 1998 and
the 1988 regs later and see if I can fish something out. -Mike
--
Mike "Skyfox" Strates <mi...@studentpilot.com>; www.croftj.net/~mstrates
Phone: +613-9440-5778; ICQ #47663425. Exercising my freedom of flight.
Mike Strates
>I am not at all happy with the Censar system. It relies on phone connections
>at the other end - which may not be available.
Has anyone also noticed the small fact that the number for CENSAR is no
longer listed on the bottom of Airservices flight plans, or that the
telephone directory number doesn't list it?
Mike Strates
>I am not sure why you think it will save heaps of cash. How much do you
>think it cost to arrange and cancel a Sartime in the old system? It was one
I think he was talking about the cash saved in the event that SAR was
dispatched and you were happy, warm and snug in a motel somewhere with their
airplane safely tied down at a field; far, far away :-)
Quite curious as to the fines incurred if SAR is dispatched when you haven't
even crashed. This must happen quite a lot, with the new system.
Jason Carley
will be able to see you crash.
If you mean making calls on the area frequency, I like to make a new call
when in a new area or in the viscinity of a higher traffic area (can't hurt
to let people know I am here) but making a 15 minute call except in extreme
circumstances ie remote area or over water skeds etc seems a bit over the
top for VFR aircraft. They do after all have your flight plan (assuming you
file one).
Jason.
Mike Strates <mstr...@croftj.net> wrote in message
news:slrn7vkn8t....@biggerkitty.dyn.ml.org...
> On Mon, 04 Oct 1999 12:51:40 +1000, John Visser <j...@zipworld.com.au>
wrote:
>
Paul Groves
I thought Sandy was intimating that CENSAR will provide savings over the
present. I can only see that happening, if the DTIS FSOs are finally
removed, levels of service stay the same and the proper infrastructure is
put in for Flight watch ... However in those terms, any savings from Censar
is chicken feed ....
Mike Strates <mstr...@croftj.net> wrote in message
news:slrn7vknjr....@biggerkitty.dyn.ml.org...
> On Mon, 4 Oct 1999 09:55:53 +1000, Paul Groves <ol...@uq.net.au> wrote:
> >I am not sure why you think it will save heaps of cash. How much do you
> >think it cost to arrange and cancel a Sartime in the old system? It
was...
> I think he was talking about the cash saved in the event that SAR was
> dispatched and you were happy, warm and snug in a motel somewhere > with
their airplane safely tied down at a field; far, far away :-)
snip
> This must happen quite a lot, with the new system.
> Mike "Skyfox" Strates <mi...@studentpilot.com>;
From my experience it does happen a lot with the new system, which will put
the costs up... I will see if I can get a figure for how often SAR action is
inititated on Sartimes...Censar versus the old way.
rgds
Paul Groves
ol...@uq.net.au
Boyd Moody
<jca...@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
>No, check out http://www.airservices.gov.au/Apps/Briefing/briefing.htm enter
>21 as the identifier and you will see that there is an area QNH at the end.
>
>Regards,
>
>Jason.
>
>> I think, and I could be wrong, that there is only QNH on the aerodrome
>> forecasts and not the Area Forecasts.
>
>>
>
I double checked the AREA forecasts today and they don't have QNH on
them. AERODROME (TAF) forecasts do have the temps and local QNH on
them for 3 hrs periods.
I think you got them confused a little.
Cheers
Boyd Moody
John Visser
Something of an addition to this: on both occasions I asked for a TAF update I
was given an INTER as having 35 knot winds but no direction. For me as a pilot
this information is as useful as the boobs on a bull - I cannot make a decision
on cross winds for my operation. Do you get INTERs with no wind direction? This
was associated with TS, which I guess would have a bearing on this...
Cheers
John
Boyd Moody wrote:
--
jacko
<jca...@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
>If you are in a CTAF you probably won't need your ELT, the local flying club
>will be able to see you crash.
>
Hi Jason,
I'm thinking they would need bloody good eyesight to spot even the
Goodyear blimp thru 60nm of haze from a cane burn in my CTAF.
Cheers
jacko
Jason Carley
Touche....
But you do have to admit that most aren't that big?
Regards,
Jason
Jason Carley
aren't maybe a bit confused. Did you follow the link I suggested?
I DO understand the DIFFERENCE between TAFs and AREA forecasts thanks.
Attached is the curent (2330 local) Area 21 ARFOR. What is the last item?
Regards.
AREA21 (21)
ARFOR AMEND AREA FORECAST 071500 TO 080500 AREA 21
OVERVIEW:
AREAS OF LOW CLOUD NORTHEASTERN RANGES TILL 23Z. FOG PATCHES TILL
23Z.
WIND:
2000 5000 7000 10000 14000 18500
VRB/10 VRB/10 VRB/10 250/10 PS02 270/15 MS05 270/15 MS14
AMD CLOUD:
AREAS BKN ST 3000/5000 NE RANGES TILL 23Z.
SCT CU/SC 2000/9000 SEA/COAST, 5000/9000 RANGES.
SCT CU/SC 4000/8000 W SLOPES.
WEATHER:
FOG
VISIBILITY:
GOOD
FREEZING LEVEL:
11000/12000
ICING:
NIL SIG
TURBULENCE:
NIL SIG
AMEND CRITICAL LOCATIONS: CLOUD HEIGHTS ABOVE MSL
MT VICTORIA: BKN ST 3700 CLOUD ON GROUND
FM23 9999 SCT CU 5000
AMD BOWRAL: 9999 FEW CU 4000
PROB40 1623 0500 FG
ARFOR AREA FORECAST 071100 TO 072300 AREA 21
OVERVIEW:
AREAS OF LOW CLOUD NORTHEASTERN RANGES. FOG PATCHES AFTER 16Z.
WIND:
2000 5000 7000 10000 14000 18500
VRB/10 350/10 VRB/10 290/10 PS02 250/15 MS05 230/15 MS14
CLOUD:
AREAS BKN ST 3000/4500 NE RANGES.
SCT CU/SC 2000/9000 SEA/COAST, 5000/9000 RANGES, LOCALLY BKN SEA WITH
ISOL TOPS 12000.
SCT CU/SC 4000/8000 W SLOPES.
WEATHER:
FOG
VISIBILITY:
GOOG
FREEZING LEVEL:
11000/12000
ICING:
NIL SIG
TURBULENCE:
MOD WITH CU
CRITICAL LOCATIONS: CLOUD HEIGHTS ABOVE MSL
MT VICTORIA: BKN ST 3700 CLOUD ON GROUND
BOWRAL: 3000 DZ BKN ST 3000
AQNH AREA QNH 13/16
AREA 21: 1022
Boyd Moody
<jca...@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
>Well, every area forecast I have used recently has them. Are you sure you
>aren't maybe a bit confused. Did you follow the link I suggested?
>
>I DO understand the DIFFERENCE between TAFs and AREA forecasts thanks.
>
>Attached is the curent (2330 local) Area 21 ARFOR. What is the last item?
>
>Regards.
OK
But the forecasts that we got did not have the Area QNH info on them.
Admittedly the only accces we have to met info is thru the NAPIS
terminals and that *may* have something to do with it.
I did also check the hazard alert printer that we monitor and the area
forecasts on there did not have QNH info on them either.
Alternatively, this info might have been not included for that
particular forecast and I will check specifically for this over the
next couple of days.
As for being confused as to what a TAF and an ARFOR are....
....Give yourself an uppercut!
Cheers
Boyd Moody.
jacko
<jca...@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
>
> I knew when I posted that someone would reply with a 60nm diameter CTAF.
> Touche....
>
> But you do have to admit that most aren't that big?
>
the CTAF encompasses two or more airfields with identically aligned
RWYs, and pilots do not clearly identify their present location.
Cheers
jacko
PETer and susAN
getting close....
Cheers
Peter Cokley
Historical aviation web pages
http://homepages.msn.com/PicnicPl/petan-oz
On Thu, 07 Oct 1999 12:05:12 GMT, jac...@NOTRASHmy-deja.com (jacko) wrote:
>I'm thinking they would need bloody good eyesight to spot even the
>Goodyear blimp thru 60nm of haze from a cane burn in my CTAF.
>
>Cheers
>
>jacko
>
Stephen Frawley
> Gidday Boyd,
>
> Something of an addition to this: on both occasions I asked for a TAF update I
> was given an INTER as having 35 knot winds but no direction. For me as a pilot
> this information is as useful as the boobs on a bull - I cannot make a decision
> on cross winds for my operation. Do you get INTERs with no wind direction? This
> was associated with TS, which I guess would have a bearing on this...
>
> Cheers
>
> John
>
That's right. If the INTER was for TS and associated wind gusts, there is
no way of forecasting the direction of the gusts as they depend on the
location of the TS relative to the airfield. Use the wind direction from
the main body of the TAF to plan your operations, then look out for TS in
the area when you arrive and beware of possible gusts from them.
--------------------
Stephen Frawley
s.fr...@bom.gov.au
--------------------
Stephen Frawley
> Well, every area forecast I have used recently has them. Are you sure you
> aren't maybe a bit confused. Did you follow the link I suggested?
>
> I DO understand the DIFFERENCE between TAFs and AREA forecasts thanks.
>
> Attached is the curent (2330 local) Area 21 ARFOR. What is the last item?
>
> Regards.
>
>
>
What you have here is an AQNH attached to an ARFOR. I can assure you
that they are created by Met as separate messages. What ASA does with them
after that is up to them.
Paul Saccani
wrote:
>almost. Theirs are in mm Hg, not hectopascals/millibars.
Did I say that? Must be mad. Inches Hg for our yank friends, not mm.
Oops!
Cheers
Paul Saccani
Perth, Western Australia.
Grant Christensen
Paul Groves
(comments below)
Jason Carley <jca...@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:7ti8jo$7v5$1...@news1.mpx.com.au...
> Well, every area forecast I have used recently has them. Are you sure
snip
Your ARFOR above did not have the AQ attached ... they are done separately
and attached for convenience. Note however, that the AQ message is normally
issued as an independent message every 3hrs (about) where as with the ARFOR,
they aim to issue them every 6 hours, but not against any tight timetable.
Some will be issued just before the forecaster works out the new AQs and so
the AQs wont be attached.
Mike Strates
>Did I say that? Must be mad. Inches Hg for our yank friends, not mm.
Whatever it is, what we need is standardization, across the world. Yes, I
know ICAO has been trying to do this for a very long time, and we've ended
up with the weird system that we have now...
.. tell me, why is altitude measured in feet if runway distance is measured
in meters? :-)
If we were going to go metric, then why not the whole system? Its my
personal opinion, that we should just leave things the same as the US
system, and that is...
* have both runway distance AND altitude measured in feet
* distances in nautical miles
* altimeter settings given in inches of mercury
Doesn't that make a lot more sense?! Russia's ATC system (which is 100%
metric, so I am told) simply doesn't work with all visiting pilots. I've
seen a metric altimeter on a MiG, but I haven't had the chance to fly with
one.
I don't know... even if we kept the system as we have it now, but didn't
change it every time the guys at CASA thought up something new. The mixture
of metric and imperial in our ATC system bewilders me, thats all...
Don't you think its just slightly annoying how they make one little change
to the CAR's and you have to buy the whole damn thing again? :-).
Martin
fun doing circuits around it!
--
Martin
"Fly in Australia"