Panasonic TX-76PW10A Does NOTdownconvert
Michael Simmons
===============
..... the comments being made on the various internet forums about the
TX-76PW10A with respect to 1080i signal being displayed as 576p are
incorrect.
The TX-76PW10A displays a 1080i component video input source in its native
format of 1080i 50Hz. The 1080i input signal is not converted to a
progressive scan format and displayed as 576p. I know that in USA internet
forums changing to another display format has been a suggested way of
displaying 1080i 60Hz.
EURO 7 Horizontal and Vertical CRT Scanning
The horizontal scanning frequency of all EURO 7 4:3 and 16:9 models is:
1. PAL 50Hz interlace and PAL 50Hz progressive program sources : 31.25kHz.
For PAL 50Hz interlace program sources(15.625kHz horizontal scan frequency,
2 fields interlaced), the EURO 7 chassis changes the program information so
that the CRT scan frequency is 31.25kHz 100Hz(4 fields interlaced). It is
possible to switch to progressive 50Hz mode but frame flicker is worse than
in 100Hz mode.
2. NTSC 60Hz interlace and NTSC 60Hz progressive program sources :
31.469kHz.
For NTSC 60Hz interlace program sources(15.734kHz horizontal scan frequency,
2 fields interlaced), the EURO 7 chassis changes the program information so
that the CRT scan frequency is 31.469kHz 60Hz progressive. In this case the
60Hz vertical scanning is more acceptable for frame flicker.
Note In 1. and 2. the extra picture information for PAL and NTSC is
interpolated by the Digital Processor and Scan Rate Convertor IC. With
progressive sources (DVD progressive players) no change is required to the
source picture information.
3.TX-76PW10A only will accept 1080i 50Hz program input via component video
in. H Scan 28.125kHz.
Horizontal scan frequency of the picture is 28.125kHz, which is in the range
of frequencies that the deflection circuits will operate in. When 1080i
picture information is detected, the uC switches the CTV into 1080i
mode(different horizontal linearity and CRT EHT). The CRT is scanned at
28.125kHz with 2 interlaced fields(50Hz) of 540 vertical lines of picture
information in each field. There is a separate geometry alignment for the
CRT(12 adjustments) just for the CRT because 1080i geometry is totally
different from 576i/p and 480i/p data.
1080i 50Hz AV Input
The 1080i 50Hz AV input is designed to comply with SMPTE standard 274M. This
is an analogue interface with tri-level sync requiring Y, Pb and Pr.
===============
Weststate A/V Systems
doesn't.
Quoted from;
http://www.cybertheater.com/Tech_Reports/HD_Projectors/hd_projector.html
"The 1080I format puts a difficult demand on any display device. As I just
indicated, it requires close to twice the vertical resolution of a SD 4:3
picture. For 1080I, this is equivalent to displaying 1440 scan lines on the full
height of a 4:3 display (576 * 1.875 = 1080 * 4/3 = 1440). Very few projectors
will have a spot size small enough to actually resolve each line individually,
the basic definition of vertical resolution.
You might notice that the theoretical maximum 1080I horizontal resolution
expressed in pixels/PH is 1080 (1920 * 9/16). This is the same as the nominal
vertical resolution. When the horizontal and vertical resolutions (both
expressed in picture heights) are the same, they are called "square pixel
formats". "
What's is the signal parameters for 1080I
Active Picture Horizontal Pixels 1920
Total Horizontal Pixels 2200
Active Picture Lines/Frame 1080
Total Lines/Frame 1125
Aspect Ratio 1:78:1
What a display needs to show 1080I:
Horizontal Scan Rate (KHz) 33.75
Horizontal Retrace Time (uS) 3.77
Vertical Retrace Time (uS) 667
Device Bandwidth (-3 dB) (MHz) 50
Limiting Horiz Resolution per
Picture Width (TV Lines) 1707
Limiting Horiz Resolution/PH
(TVL for 4:3 display) 1280
Limiting Horiz Resolution/PH
(TVL for 16:9 display) 960
Vertical Resolution
Lines per Picture Height
for a 4:3 Display 1440
* 16:9 'Anamorphic' Format
Pixel Clock Rate (MHz) 74.25
Colin
http://members.iinet.net.au/~colinf/wavs.htm
Michael Simmons
news:3B7B9AFD...@iinet.net.au...
> If it meet the 1080I requirements then perhaps it can, but I will bet it
> doesn't.
>
> Quoted from;
> http://www.cybertheater.com/Tech_Reports/HD_Projectors/hd_projector.html
I think it is more of an expectation problem.
Some sets are more capable of displaying 1080i than others.
Its a cost vs quality issue.
So what if these sets can display every pixel of a 1080i, they also don't
cost $30000+
To me 1080i is a goal to which television sets can evolve toward over the
next ten years.
The real issue is what do these set looks like when displaying a 1080i
signal and which one can I afford to buy.
John Rodgers
;-)
John
"Michael Simmons" <mic...@ecel.uwa.edu.au> wrote in message
news:9li8ks$1jn$1...@enyo.uwa.edu.au...
Weststate A/V Systems
720P is the best option for now. But if we had a 1080P option "well" that's
another story ! But true 720P broadcast is pretty damm good which you could
clearly see with the ABC's HD demonstrations in the US against 1080I.
Colin
http://members.iinet.net.au/~colinf/wavs.htm
Weststate A/V Systems
My point is that you have to stop the rot. Its no good being
blatantly told lies and deceived into thinking your buying lamb when in
reality its really mutton.
If the display device you are buying is not capable of true 1080I and
manufactures say it is, then we have a clear case of "FRAUD".
This is regardless of $3000 or $100,000 spent on the set.
It either shows true 1080I HDTV or it "down converts" if it down converts it
is obviously not capable of showing the full image and so should not be
labelled as capable of 1080I.
No grey area's here.
For far too long we see this sort of BS. The government needs to set laws
about the marking of HDTVs because Joe Six-pack needs to be protected from
marketing.
It just seems that this HD labelling is an opportunity for manufactures to do
the old two step and gain money yet again by pure deception and playing with
numbers.
This activity will always lead to Joe Six-pack getting deceived and ripped off
because he knows no better.
Colin
http://members.iinet.net.au/~colinf/wavs.htm
Michael Simmons
> doesn't
>Horizontal Scan Rate (KHz) 33.75
================================
The 274M parameters for 50Hz countries are:
samples/line 1920
active lines/frame 1080
frame rate 25Hz
scanning format 2:1 interlace
sampling frequency 74.25MHz
samples per total line 2640
total lines/frame 1125
horizontal scan frequency 28.125kHz (AS4933.1 2000)
=============================
From OUT OF DATE DGTEC STB information
===================
>The 3 position switch on the back of the unit is as follows:
>
>1 - For SD downconverted output
>2 - For HD output to HD-ready televisions - 1125 lines total, 1080
>active, 28.3Khz scanning frequency.
>3 - For HD output to a VGA-type display - 1250 lines total, 1080
>active, 31.25 kHz scanning frequency.
>
>This 3rd option is so VGA computer-type displays won't freak out when
>fed a signal below 30 kHz. The extra lines are just 'padding' out the
>signal. It is based on the old now-defunct European 1250 line HD
>system of the early 90s. It had 1152 active lines, but obviously that
>has now been changed to 1080 for compatibility.
===================
The output option on the DGTEC where changed in later versions.
Michael Simmons
> Michael
> My point is that you have to stop the rot. Its no good being
> blatantly told lies and deceived into thinking your buying lamb when in
> reality its really mutton.
I don't work for Panasonic or any other TV company.
I agree they (including Sony) need to give out much more technical
information.
They should state screen resolution.
I know that for the Sony.
"Full horizontal detail may not be realised dependant on HD profile"
(read 1080i....)
and that the Panasonic "pixel spacing at the centre of the 32" CRT is 0.67mm
horizontally, which means there are better than 900 pixels."
My guess (and I mean Guess!) is that the Sony's dot pitch is about the same
as the Panasonic.
It is however a bigger screen and hence more pixels.
Can you point me at any device that actually has 1920x1080 pixels? Or even
1440x1080
> For far too long we see this sort of BS. The government needs to set laws
> about the marking of HDTVs because Joe Six-pack needs to be protected from
> marketing.
Agreed. Or at least the industry needs "encouragement" to be self
regulating.
>
> It just seems that this HD labelling is an opportunity for manufactures to
do
> the old two step and gain money yet again by pure deception and playing
with
> numbers.
I agreed with you.
You should realize that the market for HDTV is very young.
90% of the fud out there is because the sales people don't have enough
knowledge to know what they are talking about.
To be fair the info I have seen states "1080i input" or "capable of
displaying a high definition picture" (which means 576p grrr).
Weststate A/V Systems
copied below you will understand "why" I have written 33.75
Mhz not the actual
"horizontal scan frequency 28.125kHz (AS4933.1 2000)"
Its called "headroom" and it is what a display device
"NEEDS" to have to show 1920x1080.
So try reading it again.
What a display needs to show 1080I:
Horizontal Scan Rate (KHz) 33.75
Horizontal Retrace Time (uS) 3.77
Vertical Retrace Time (uS) 667
Device Bandwidth (-3 dB) (MHz) 50
Limiting Horiz Resolution per
Picture Width (TV Lines) 1707
Limiting Horiz Resolution/PH
(TVL for 4:3 display) 1280
Limiting Horiz Resolution/PH
(TVL for 16:9 display) 960
Vertical Resolution
Lines per Picture Height
for a 4:3 Display 1440
* 16:9 'Anamorphic' Format
Pixel Clock Rate (MHz) 74.25
Please note that the main difference between the US ATSC
1920x1080 system and our DVB-T 1920x1080 system is that
ours is "50 Hz" based and theirs is "60 Hz" based (mainly
because of the existing electrical power system).
Colin
John Robinson
I don't think you have explained this very clearly. 1080i is actually
made up of 1125 lines, the other 45 being the headroom which you
describe.
For 1080i/50, the horizontal scan freqency is in fact 28.125kHz (1125
x 25 = 28,125). The 33.75Khz you quote is actually for 1080i/60 (ie.
1125 x 30 = 33,750)
Regards
John
Weststate A/V Systems
Colin
big...@gmail.com
Specific to the Panasonic TX-76PW10A (w/EURO7) and more generally to the 1080i/50 standards (SMPTE 274M),
I am setting up an OSMC (Debian based) system running on an Apple TV (1st Gen),
connecting to a 32" WS Panasonic TX-76PW10A via component AV inputs.
I seems to need to build a custom "mode line" (re: xorg.conf) in order to have the Apple TV pass the 1080i/50 signal.
The only one that I could find (and doesn't seem to work) is:
<<<1920x1080 50Hz 28.125 kHz Interlaced>>>
ModeLine "1920x1080" 74.25 1920 2448 2492 2640 1080 1084 1094 1124 +HSync +VSync Interlace
{NOTE: from "ftp://www.x.org/pub/X11R6.7.0/doc/xorg.conf.5.html "Monitor Section":
"
ModeLine "name" mode-description
This entry is a more compact version of the Mode entry, and it also can be used to specify video modes for the monitor. is a single line format for specifying video modes. In most cases this isn't necessary because the built-in set of VESA standard modes will be sufficient.
The mode-description is in four sections, the first three of which are mandatory. The first is the dot (pixel) clock. This is a single number specifying the pixel clock rate for the mode in MHz. The second section is a list of four numbers specifying the horizontal timings. These numbers are the hdisp, hsyncstart, hsyncend, and htotal values. The third section is a list of four numbers specifying the vertical timings. These numbers are the vdisp, vsyncstart, vsyncend, and vtotal values. The final section is a list of flags specifying other characteristics of the mode. Interlace indicates that the mode is interlaced. DoubleScan indicates a mode where each scanline is doubled. +HSync and -HSync can be used to select the polarity of the HSync signal. +VSync and -VSync can be used to select the polarity of the VSync signal. Composite can be used to specify composite sync on hardware where this is supported. Additionally, on some hardware, +CSync and -CSync may be used to select the composite sync polarity. The HSkew and VScan options mentioned above in the Modes entry description can also be used here.
"
So the string listed above amounts to:
dot (pixel) clock (MHz): 74.25 (should this actually be 28.125???)
hdisp: 1920 (pretty sure this is correct)
hsyncstart: 2448 (???)
hsyncend: 2492 (???)
htotal: 2640 (or should it be 2200???)
vdisp: 1080 (pretty sure this is correct)
vsyncstart: 1084 (???)
vsyncend: 1094 (???)
vtotal: 1125 (pretty sure this is correct)
+HSync: TRUE (as opposed to -HSync)
+VSync: TRUE (as opposed to -VSync)
Interlace: TRUE (1080i)
DoubleScan: should this flag be set due to 50HZ --> 100Hz (as Panasonic TX-76PW10A is 100Hz capable)
NO, my questions are regarding...
dot (pixel) clock (MHz): 74.25 (should this actually be 28.125???)
hsyncstart: 2448 (???)
hsyncend: 2492 (???)
htotal: 2640 (or should it be 2200???)
vsyncstart: 1084 (???)
vsyncend: 1094 (???)
Any insight or redirection to correct information would be greatly appreciated,
especially regarding the clock rate settings, as this needs to be specific to the 100Hz Panasonic.