Power cables

[John Galbraith]

So I've been messing around with a fancy power cable that I found online on
half price sale. I figured that it probably doesn't make any difference, but
it was 50% off and it at least wouldn't hurt my system, and who knows?. I
think it was like $125 or something like that. The only piece I have right
now that will accept the standard power cable like this one is my SACD player,
so it's been on that player for a couple of months now. I originally stuck it
on there and went back to listening to LP's, and occasionally an SACD or CD.

I just spent 45 minutes this evening swapping it back and forth with an el-
cheapo power cable and spinning Beethoven symph 5, 1st movement (the famous
one) on SACD. I honestly never believed until tonight that the power cable
makes any difference, because I'm an engineer and know how a linear power
supply works and I just don't accept that the physics of the situation are
that different between the stock power cable and the gold plated ones.

Well, on my system and that recording, the difference is not even subtle! I
am 95% suprised that I could even hear a difference, let alone develop such an
immediate preference for the fancy cable. This is a *power* cable. What the
heck? There is something about the dynamics and the ambience of the recording
that are clearly missing with the cheapo power cable. Probably more features,
besides.

This is also on a SACD player, which probably does not even draw that much
current through the cable compared to a power amp.

So, I am totally mystified, but also impressed and happy. What experiences do
you guys have?

John

[Michael J. Carter]

I've also been mystified as to why a mains cable could have a big
sound impact. I wonder what romex straight from the breaker soldered
to your power supply would result in...

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Michael J. Carter
mca...@pobox.com

[John Galbraith]

On Wednesday 04 November 2009 8:14:05 pm Michael J. Carter wrote:
> I've also been mystified as to why a mains cable could have a big
> sound impact. I wonder what romex straight from the breaker soldered
> to your power supply would result in...

Yeah, that would be interesting and I have no guess about the outcome. Except
for the horrible safety situation...

I've also thought about wiring a special outlet for my components. I have a
60 amp cable bringing power from my breaker to my garage, where I have a sub-
panel which is quite close to my listening room. I could pretty easily run a
special romex (oxygen free? do they make it?) from the sub-panel to a
dedicated outlet in my listening room. Any reason to think this is worth the
effort?

John

[Michael J. Carter]

Romex is cheap. You have to do it. ;^)

mjc

[robert taylor]

"oxygen free? do they make it?"
and cyro, and "single crystal":
http://www.vhaudio.com/wire.html 

"> dedicated outlet in my listening room. Any reason to think this is worth the effort?"

I have doubts about the $145/meter, or even the $60/meter OCC cable, but yes, I've heard quite a few reports of where dedicated lines for listening rooms (including GOOD grounds), made a very noticable difference. 
And seperate (back to the breaker) for digital & analoge, and isolation transformers for both. 
 
And no, I don't understand how power cords can make THAT much difference either... 
 
r

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[John Galbraith]

On Wednesday 04 November 2009 8:48:09 pm Michael J. Carter wrote:
> Romex is cheap. You have to do it. ;^)

Yeah, Romex is cheap, but if I did this it would involve some indulgent
material that was not. 8-) Probably one of those outrageous "hifi" outlets,
too. Especially if I could get somebody I know or trusted to say that "yeah,
I tried one of those outlets and I could hear the difference".

The advantage I have is that the run would be really quite short from the
garage. I would probably need only about 20 feet of it.

John

[John Galbraith]

On Wednesday 04 November 2009 8:52:16 pm robert taylor wrote:
> "oxygen free? do they make it?"
> and cyro, and "single crystal":
> http://www.vhaudio.com/wire.html

Wow, cool site. I was looking for something like that to buy raw interconnect
and speaker wire. Have you compared their prices with other vendors?

> "> dedicated outlet in my listening room. Any reason to think this is
> worth the effort?" I have doubts about the $145/meter, or even the
> $60/meter OCC cable, but yes, I've heard quite a few reports of
> where dedicated lines for listening rooms (including GOOD grounds), made
> a very noticable difference. And seperate (back to the breaker) for
> digital & analoge, and isolation transformers for both.

OK. I'm willing to think about this. Where do I find out about what makes a
GOOD ground? Should I drive another ground stake to support these outlets?
Where can I find these reports? Is the isolation transformer just a 1:1 power
transformer?

At $60/meter, even my short run would cost ~$420. If I wanted separate
digital and analog, it would double. Pretty scary, but it's pretty easy to
spend that much on speaker and interconnect wire too. Those should come
first.

> And no, I don't understand how power cords can make THAT much difference
> either...

Yes, it is rather uncomfortable to hear something that one shouldn't.
Luckily, it's for the better in this case. I'm willing to do more projects
that I can hear the difference of, even if I can't explain it.

How do you guys think one of these digital power inverters like
http://www.psaudio.com/ps/products/detail/power-plant-premier_copy?cat=power
would play here? Do you think that it would be redundant with spending money
on the power lines? It's too expensive, but the website claims they have "B"
stock, whatever that means, for $400 less.

John

[jsn]

I have to admit that I am skeptical. I will just have to play with
power cables I guess.

John, what cables are you using and what did they replace?

I think Matt has done some work on the grounding of his system. I
think the basic recipe is to hammer a large ground rod into the ground
as close as possible to your system ground, and use large conductors
to tie it in. Or something like that.

jsn

[robert taylor]

I was discussing this with an EE here @ work a while back, and he related a story from a few years back,
how some test instrument glitch problems in desert country which were not solved by the large ground rod alone,
but did go away with a large disc "ground plane," connected to the base of the rod, buried in damp soil. 
(Would need a "dripper," or to have the ground occasionally dampened). 
Electricity became much more stable...  (was recorded over period of days, reviewed, etc). 

> Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 08:09:48 -0700
> Subject: Re: Power cables
> From: j...@boozhoundlabs.com
> To: audio...@googlegroups.com

>
> I have to admit that I am skeptical. I will just have to play with
> power cables I guess.
>
> John, what cables are you using and what did they replace?
>
> I think Matt has done some work on the grounding of his system. I
> think the basic recipe is to hammer a large ground rod into the ground
> as close as possible to your system ground, and use large conductors
> to tie it in. Or something like that.
>
> jsn
>

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[jsn]

That sounds like the ground planes Hams use for vertical antennas.
Many radials buried just below the surface.

And yeah - different soils are said to have varying conductivity. The
ARRL manuals surely have more info on this. I can look up more info
if you guys are interested in going beyond the ground rod.

jsn

[John Galbraith]

On Thursday 05 November 2009 8:51:17 am robert taylor wrote:
> I was discussing this with an EE here @ work a while back, and he related a
> story from a few years back, how some test instrument glitch problems in
> desert country which were not solved by the large ground rod alone, but
> did go away with a large disc "ground plane," connected to the base of the
> rod, buried in damp soil. (Would need a "dripper," or to have the ground
> occasionally dampened).

Gee, where could that have been? 8-)

John

[John Galbraith]

On Thursday 05 November 2009 8:09:48 am jsn wrote:
> I have to admit that I am skeptical. I will just have to play with
> power cables I guess.
>
> John, what cables are you using and what did they replace?

Well, I did my test with a lightweight cheapo power cable to accentuate the
difference (because I did not expect to hear one) and the expensive one is a
"Diamondback Platinum" that was on sale.

John

[jsn]

Here are the specs:

Specifications:
• NEW Gold plated contacts on both ends
• Proprietary ultra-pure CDA-101 Copper conductors
• Massive 12 gauge wire - 20 amp current capacity
• Dual 100% shielding (Foil and copper braid)
• Exclusive, Shunyata designed connectors
• Low power-loss 'crystal' dielectric materials

I wonder where the magic comes from? Big conductors? Pure copper?
Lots of shielding? good insulation?

jsn

[robert taylor]

Saudi--
talk about dry sand!
So the results are used...   

> From: bar...@cybermesa.com
> To: audio...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: Power cables

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[robert taylor]

I really question "those outrageous "hifi" outlets." 
Maybe. 
I just don't see it though; seems way past the point of diminishing returns. 
If I was that concerned about it, I really think I'd just hard-wire components, with non-metallic connectors. 
Yes, I have heard changes in mass in connectors affect sound, and solder most definitely. 
That one's easy to prove, just make a pair of interconnects out of solder... 

I know people that have bought "hifi" outlets. 
Can't say I trust their ears though... 

But if you want to go all out, you at least need a decent breaker panel:

http://www.aaudioimports.com/ShowProduct.asp?hProduct=64 

this guy sez it's great:

http://www.dagogo.com/View-Article.asp?hArticle=326 

(part way down the page; also for grounding information). 
While you're at it, why not get a new pole pig, with nickle core, or at least amorphous, and silver windings? 
and purified water for the hydro-electric generator, and... 
Yeah, I'm pretty skeptical... 

r

> From: bar...@cybermesa.com
> To: audio...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: Power cables

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[robert taylor]

This is the page I meant to link to last night:

http://www.venhaus1.com/diymains.html

from:

http://www.vhaudio.com/diy.html

tells a little bit about the "hows," from someone who also makes commercial cables, and has experimented a fair amount. 
can't find the "whys" links right now...  jon risch? 


> Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 09:06:47 -0700

> Subject: Re: Power cables
> From: j...@boozhoundlabs.com
> To: audio...@googlegroups.com
>

[John Galbraith]

On Wednesday 04 November 2009 8:52:16 pm robert taylor wrote:

> > dedicated outlet in my listening room. Any reason to think this is worth
> > the effort?"
>
> I have doubts about the $145/meter, or even the $60/meter OCC cable, but
> yes, I've heard quite a few reports of where dedicated lines for listening
> rooms (including GOOD grounds), made a very noticable difference. And
> seperate (back to the breaker) for digital & analoge, and isolation
> transformers for both.

I found a couple of pretty decent reviews by some guy who did not seem too
annoying at
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/1206/ps_audio_jps_labs.htm
and
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/Magazine/equipment/1002/jpslab.htm

where he reviews the difference between standard house wiring, dedicated
lines, and dedicated lines with fancy cable. The way he did it seems pretty
reasonable, at least as good as I could have though of.

I found another link about how to punch a new ground rod at
http://www.cpccorp.com/deep.htm which is harder to read, but shows
quantitative data on ground resistance. Sounds interesting, but I'm not sure
I can put a 30 foot ground rod through the Tuff rock we have in Los Alamos.

I'm ready to be convinced that dedicated lines are significant enough, and is
cheap if you stay away from exotic cable. In my case, it might cost a bit
more because I need more breaker capacity.

I'm probably going to dabble in this upgrade. I still need to choose a wire
type (I still can't believe that Home Depot 10 guage romex would be a good
choice) and maybe outlets. Apparently going from the $1.50 kind to the $18
hospital kind gets you most of the way there, and after that some people still
like the $50 and $100 ones.

It kind of sucks that there is such a huge price gap between romex
(approximately free) and the next reasonable choice, which seems to be
$18/foot. Robert's link at vhaudio.com has some $3/foot stuff, but it appears
to be normal 10/2 romex that they treated in a freezer for some reason.

John