Vinyl

[Omid Mostachfi]

Hi Brent,

I've gotten rid of my phono pre-amp. Instead I've been using your RIAA DSP solution  (and amplifying the signal in the digital domain). It sounds great and has eliminated the 60Hz buzz my phono pre-amp created (a ground loop I couldn't eliminate). I'm wondering if there is a DSP implementation that could remove clicks, pops etc as well. I realize this is not your focus, but it could be a potential attractive option for some prospective clients.

Cheers.

[Bernt Rønningsbakk]

So cool to hear. The RIAA is as perfect as it gets, but it hasn’t become widely used.

 

I’m afraid removal of clicks and pops are not in the plans. But that may change in the future if the RIAA usage starts to spread.

 

Mvh,

Bernt

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[Omid Mostachfi]

Fair enough. I'll go analogue: a brush and cleaning products ; )

[Alan Jordan]

I am curious about how much gain you can get using a digital RIAA solution. Is it only viable with moving magnet or moving iron output ranges?

Thanks,

Alan

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[Omid Mostachfi]

It's a moving coil (denon DL103R). I have a step up transformer for impedance matching. After that the ADC converts the signal to 24 bit 96 kHz, amplifies it by 22dB, and sends it to the PC which boosts the signal by another 45dB (if I recall correctly). I use Roon for amplifying. I only use Audiolense 's RIAA DSP for correcting the curve not for amplifying.

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[Jeff Salve]

Wow never thought Audiolense has this RIAA feature.

I was thinking I'd like to play with my vinyl but it's a pain in the butt since I've gone digital.

I have a Lnyx Aurora8. Is this as simple as feeding the cartridge signal to a step up transformer and into a mic/audio input

Thanks a lot for bringing this up.

On Thursday, February 20, 2020 at 7:30:26 PM UTC-5, Omid Mostachfi wrote:

It's a moving coil (denon DL103R). I have a step up transformer for impedance matching. After that the ADC converts the signal to 24 bit 96 kHz, amplifies it by 22dB, and sends it to the PC which boosts the signal by another 45dB (if I recall correctly). I use Roon for amplifying. I only use Audiolense 's RIAA DSP for correcting the curve not for amplifying.

On Wed, Feb 19, 2020 at 4:28 PM Alan Jordan <aljo...@gmail.com> wrote:

I am curious about how much gain you can get using a digital RIAA solution. Is it only viable with moving magnet or moving iron output ranges?

Thanks,

Alan

On Wed, Feb 19, 2020 at 7:21 PM Omid Mostachfi <omidmo...@gmail.com> wrote:

Fair enough. I'll go analogue: a brush and cleaning products ; )

On Wednesday, 19 February 2020 09:59:42 UTC-8, Omid Mostachfi wrote:

Hi Brent,

I've gotten rid of my phono pre-amp. Instead I've been using your RIAA DSP solution  (and amplifying the signal in the digital domain). It sounds great and has eliminated the 60Hz buzz my phono pre-amp created (a ground loop I couldn't eliminate). I'm wondering if there is a DSP implementation that could remove clicks, pops etc as well. I realize this is not your focus, but it could be a potential attractive option for some prospective clients.

Cheers.

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[Omid Mostachfi]

Basically yes, but it takes a few steps. I wasn't familiar with the aurora 8. It looks like a great option (had I known about it, I might have bought it instead of the motu 8a ). 

My setup is like this:

MC cartridge --> step up transformer --> Motu 8A analog input (96kHz, 24 bit ADC) --> 22dB amplification --> PC via USB (unfortunately Roon does not accept input devices, so I have to create a fake radio broadcast, and make roon tune-in to my online radio) --> Butt software (which also adds 24db amplification and streams audio as a flac file) --> Ice Broadcast as localhost --> Roon radio --> DSP RIAA --> 2nd DSP for XO and room correction (NB you can have audiolense make a single DSP filter that combines riaa and room correction instead) --> amplification by 23dB in Roon --> back to Motu 8a (DAC 96kHz) via usb --> amplifier --> speaker

Your ADC/DAC has an  input impedance of 100 kOhms . You need to look at your MC cartridge and see what impedance it needs to play into. That'll tell you what sort of ratio your step up transformer needs to be. It doesn't look like you have 'RCA in' plugs but a DIN 25, so you'll need some sort of adapter for the connection. The ADC usually only has a bit of amplification, the bulk of the amplification will be done by the PC.

An other alternative if you have it, is to use the mic input module (LM-PRE4 sold separately?). That has a 2.1 kOhm input, and the ability to amplify by 60+ dB which would be ideal for low voltage signals like those of an MC cartridge. 

Let us know how it goes.

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[Gunnar Kulbotten]

I’m using a DL-103 connected directly to the mic-inputs of a RME-UFX. I use 55dB gain on the RME to get suitable input level. Have added two 100 ohm resistors as load on the RME MIC inputs, but nothing else. RIAA in Audolense. Very low noise, even in my high eff horn speakers

[Omid Mostachfi]

I’m no expert, so I might be wrong, but my understanding is as follows:

The input impedance on the mic inputs of your unit is 3.4 kOhms. The added resistors (if they are in series) will bring it up to 3.6 kOhms. The recommended load for a DL103 is 100 Ohms. In theory too high an impedance will lead to a rise in high frequencies (see graph below from this website:http://www.extremephono.com/Loading.htm). 

If you have a test LP with pink or white noise, it’d be interesting to see the spectrum you get after RIAA correction. If it’s good then no worries. If it’s not it could be equalized in the digital domain. 

Or you might say ‘who cares it sounds good to me!’  

On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 9:50 AM Gunnar Kulbotten <gkulb...@gmail.com> wrote:

I’m using a DL-103 connected directly to the mic-inputs of a RME-UFX. I use  55dB gain on the RME to get suitable input level. Have added two 100 ohm resistors as load on the RME MIC inputs, but nothing else. RIAA in Audolense. Very low noise, even in my high eff horn speakers

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[Gunnar Kulbotten]

The resistors are connected in parallel.

[Omid Mostachfi]

Ah! That makes more sense. Most of the current goes through the resistors then. I guess the ADC works as a voltage sensor which works out fine. 

Why do we use step up transformers? Why doesn’t everyone just put a resistor in parallel with the phono input? Any electrical people working clarify this?

On Fri, Feb 21, 2020 at 10:35 AM Gunnar Kulbotten <gkulb...@gmail.com> wrote:

The resistors are connected in parallel.

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[Gunnar Kulbotten]

Forgot to say that I have the DL-103R version. Only about 14 ohms. I had also success with teplacing the original plastic housing with alu. Also epoxy potting..

[Jeff Salve]

Thanks for the reply, much appreciated.

I just can't get my head wrapped around this.

So I have 8 inputs on my Aurora8, so I can use this as it's high-quality 192khz ADC

I'm just confused with routing into Aurora, into the PC/JRiver and back into Aurora again, then out to amp/speaker.

So Jriver listens to Aurora Audio Input through USB and apply audiolense Room Correction and RIAA and send it back out to Aurora?

Just wondering if I could use just the Aurora 8 and not have to LMPre4 mic input module?

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[Omid Mostachfi]

Yes you got it exactly. The signal goes through the aurora, out to the computer and back from the computer through the same USB cable to the aurora unit. My unit has a routing table that allows me to do that. I expect yours should have the equivalent

You don’t have to use the Mic amp if you don’t want to. You could amplify in the digital domain.

I guess the analogue digital converter needs to have enough bit depth to capture the low signal with enough dynamic range. Keeping in mind that the dynamic range of vinyl recording is probably 12 to 14 bits, That shouldn’t be too hard.

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[gkulb...@gmail.com]

I don’t know if there is any need for a stepup. The mic inputs have enough gain, and very low noise.

Sendt fra min iPhone

21. feb. 2020 kl. 19:39 skrev Omid Mostachfi <omidmo...@gmail.com>:



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[Omid Mostachfi]

I got curious about the whole thing and decided to measure my output with and without step up transformer. The step up gives me 14dB more gain in signal but also raises the noise floor by ~5dB. --> slightly better SNR. However the high frequency rise I expected without a step up transformer was not there. 

I decided then to play a pink noise track on my turntable with and without step up transformer. The measured output without step-up was closer to the expected pink noise spectrum than with a step-up. The step-up resulted in a bit more boost in low frequencies.

I also noted when playing a 3150Hz , that there was 2nd (-35dB compared to fundamental), 3rd, 4th harmonics. There's a slight 60Hz bump I can't hear. 

The boost in low freq and harmonics might be responsible for the 'warmer sound'. 

Always good to measure these things!!!

I'm going to buy a Cambridge Duo tomorrow and run some measurements again, for comparison.

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[Jeff Salve]

Thanks Omid, I'll do as you suggest and setup my turntable.

Gotta admit firing up my turntable again is pretty exciting.

It's only been in storage for 10 years or so LOL

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[Omid Mostachfi]

I purchased the Cambridge audio Duo and recorded the output I got (same setup as before: through motu ADC to PC, internet radiobroadcast to roon, then back to motu DAC). The difference was that the gain in the ADC, radio broadcast, and roon was set to 0 dB, and there was no DSP RIAA. 

The results were very comparable to the digitally amplified and corrected signal (with step up transformer). The SNR was slightly better without the DUO. 

The harmonics of 3150Hz and boost in low freq with pink noise were present in both setups, leading me to conclude these departures were not from digital RIAA, or amplification (or step up transformer). 

I'll be returning the DUO...

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[bruce bosler]

Pure Vinyl also does RIAA and has a built in pop remover. Never tried the pop remover but the RIAA is great. Also accepts plug ins so I assume you could use the AudioLense RIAA if you wished. Check it out.. free trial.

[Jeffrey Robbins]

Omid, I heard that Ice doesn’t support 24/96 or 24/192. It does? I would like to do a similar thing for Roon. Could you provide detailed instructions as to how you set up the fake broadcast and have it running through Roon? I have a Benchmark ADC-1 analog-to-digital converter and a Lynx AES16e soundcard to use for the project. Thanks. JCR

[Omid Mostachfi]

I use a program called Butt. It takes the signal from the dac, converts it to a flac file which it sends to Ice. Ice broadcasts it. 

I haven’t looked at the limitations of Ice as Butt is the first bottleneck in the chain. The drop down menus in the settings only allow for 16 bit, 48kHz max. However, if you open the config file you can rewrite the sampling rate to a higher rate (I use 96kHz, the same sampling rate as my ADC/DAC). You might be able to do 192 kHz. Ice broadcasts the 96khz signal without any problems (Roon shows the incoming sampling rate at 96)

As far as the bit depth goes though, you can't adjust it. I emailed the guy who wrote the BUTT software, who confirmed this. That bothered me for a while. I figured the signal from the MC cartridge was very low, so it'd be best to have greater bit depth to make sure the low strength signal is captured properly. 

I then did some measurements to see if that was the case. I played track 10 (a 3150 Hz test tone) on the 'Ultimate Analogue Test Lp'.  I measured the signal to noise ratio (SNR) of the signal coming from my step up transformer directly connect to the 'mic in' on my laptop. I also measured  the signal coming out of a cambridge DUO phono preamp connected to my laptop's 'line in' input. The SNR was the same in both cases as the signal going through Butt and Ice then Roon. In other words the bit depth of my lp/cartridge setup is low enough that 16 bit is more than enough to capture it adequately. 

Here's a link that shows the step by step instructions for using butt, ice, and Roon together: https://community.roonlabs.com/t/roon-analog-in-working-tutorial/71040

I should warn you there is a 5-6 second delay between the time you drop the needle until you hear music. 

On Thu, Mar 5, 2020 at 7:06 AM Jeffrey Robbins <jrobb...@gmail.com> wrote:

Omid, I heard that Ice doesn’t support 24/96 or 24/192.  It does?  I would like to do a similar thing for Roon. Could you provide detailed instructions as to how you set up the fake broadcast and have it running through Roon?  I have a Benchmark ADC-1 analog-to-digital converter and a Lynx AES16e soundcard to use for the project. Thanks. JCR

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[Jeffrey Robbins]

Fascinating. Well, worth a try. Can you explain/show how to adjust the config file for 96 or 192 bitrate? Thanks. JCR

[Omid Mostachfi]

There's a config file named "buttrc", located in the following folder (if your using Windows 10):

C:\Users\**your user name**\AppData\Roaming

You can open it with Notepad. 

Under the second section called: [audio]

The second line should read: samplerate = 96000

Or whatever rate you prefer like 192000

Hit save and you're done.

On Thu, Mar 5, 2020 at 4:40 PM Jeffrey Robbins <jrobb...@gmail.com> wrote:

Fascinating. Well, worth a try. Can you explain/show how to adjust the config file for 96 or 192 bitrate?  Thanks. JCR

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[Omid Mostachfi]

Can't remember what else I changed (gain +24dB etc), so here's the whole file:

#This is a configuration file for butt (broadcast using this tool)

[main]
bg_color = 151540480
txt_color = -256
server = icecast
srv_ent = icecast
icy =
icy_ent =
num_of_srv = 1
num_of_icy = 0
song_path =
song_update = 0
app_update_service = 0
app_update = 0
gain = 15.848932
connect_at_startup = 1
log_file =

[audio]
device = 2
samplerate = 96000
bitrate = 128
channel = 2
codec = flac
aac_overwrite_aot = 0
aac_aot = 5
resample_mode = 0
buffer_ms = 50

[record]
bitrate = 192
codec = flac
start_rec = 0
rec_after_launch = 0
sync_to_hour  = 0
split_time = 0
filename = rec_%Y%m%d-%H%M%S.flac
folder = C:\Users\** your user name**\Music\

[dsp]
equalizer = 0
gain1 = 0.000000
gain2 = 0.000000
gain3 = 0.000000
gain4 = 0.000000
gain5 = 0.000000

[gui]
attach = 0
ontop = 0
lcd_auto = 0

[icecast]
address = localhost
port = 8000
password = hackme
type = 1
mount = stream
usr = source

[Jeffrey Robbins]

Omid, I am testing with a simple ADC device from Music Hall, the pa2.2.  It has a USB sample rate of 96000, which is what I set in Icecast and also in the Butt config file.  However, When I go to the Audio settings in Butt and select the Line (Music Hall PA2.2) input, the sample rate max is 48000.  Any explanation of why I can't match to the 96000?  JCR

[Jeffrey Robbins]

In addition, I have Icecast up and broadcasting, but I can't get the station recognized in Roon.  The server hosting is at 192.168.0.233.  In Roon, I've tried adding as http://192.168.0.233:8000/stream and http://:8000/stream and, as Roon I am configuring on is on a different PC at 192.168.0.203, I've also tried http://192.168.0.203:8000/stream.  None of them are recognized by Roon.  Any clue what I'm doing wrong there as well?  Thanks.  JCR

[Omid Mostachfi]

I wonder if it’s because of the device number. 

In my setup my ADC is device number 2. In the config file above sample rate it says device 2. 

You may have to change the device number in the config file until you find which number you ADC is assigned. 

Better yet go in settings choose the musical hall device with flac set at 48000.  Close Butt. Reopen it. It will have probably re-written the config file to the right device number. Open the config file and modify the sample rate. 

On Fri, Mar 6, 2020 at 9:58 AM Jeffrey Robbins <jrobb...@gmail.com> wrote:

Omid, I am testing with a simple ADC device from Music Hall, the pa2.2.  It has a USB sample rate of 96000, which is what I set in Icecast and also in the Butt config file.  However, When I go to the Audio settings in Butt and select the Line (Music Hall PA2.2) input, the sample rate max is 48000.  Any explanation of why I can't match to the 96000?  JCR

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[Omid Mostachfi]

In my case I run Roon and broadcast on the same PC.  When I’m home on Tuesday I can experiment and see if I can hear the broadcast from another PC. There should be a way. 

As a first step though I would suggest trying to listen to the broadcast on the same machine (your server). 

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[Jeffrey Robbins]

What I am seeing is that when I set bitrate for Audio device 2 in buttrc, and then restart, I need to go reconfigure sample rate in settings on Butt for the MusicHall device — but only 48000 shows up still. If I select 48000, and then go back into buttrc, the sample rate is changed from 96000 to 48000. So, I can’t get the 96000 to stick in buttrc. JCR

[Omid Mostachfi]

just write 96000 in config file. do not touch the settings after that, or the software will re-write over the file and undo your changes.

On Fri, Mar 6, 2020 at 12:51 PM Jeffrey Robbins <jrobb...@gmail.com> wrote:

What I am seeing is that when I set bitrate for Audio device 2 in buttrc, and then restart, I need to go reconfigure sample rate in settings on Butt for the MusicHall device — but only 48000 shows up still. If I select 48000, and then go back into buttrc, the sample rate is changed from 96000 to 48000.  So, I can’t get the 96000 to stick in buttrc. JCR

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[Jeffrey Robbins]

Yes, I see. Leave sample rate blank in Butt settings, hit okay and it is streaming at 96000 sample rate. Now, I’ve done this all remotely, so when I get home, I need to connect the output of phono preamp and see if sound comes around!

But, I only have RoonServer on my core PC, which is running Icecast and Butt. So, I have to figure out how to stream across the network so another PC running Roon can add the radio station. Still can’t get that to work. JCR

[Omid Mostachfi]

Great. Once you connect your phono, the VU meter in Butt will show you if it's detecting a signal. If your ADV has any amplification, use it. Butt let's you amplify by 24dB with a slider, I suggest using it too. 

As far as your server, if it's running Butt, Roon server, and ice, then you're all set. We should be able to troubleshoot it easily (the same machine is broadcasting, and receiving).

On Fri, Mar 6, 2020 at 1:12 PM Jeffrey Robbins <jrobb...@gmail.com> wrote:

Yes, I see. Leave sample rate blank in Butt settings, hit okay and it is streaming at 96000 sample rate. Now, I’ve done this all remotely, so when I get home, I need to connect the output of phono preamp and see if sound comes around!

But, I only have RoonServer on my core PC, which is running Icecast and Butt. So, I have to figure out how to stream across the network so another PC running Roon can add the radio station. Still can’t get that to work. JCR

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[Jeffrey Robbins]

Well, Omid, no motion on the VU meter.  See attached screenshots while I am playing an album on the turntable.  It's streaming, but to where and apparently, with nothing.  Not sure what I am supposed to do next.  JCR

On Friday, March 6, 2020 at 3:33:05 PM UTC-6, Omid Mostachfi wrote:

Great. Once you connect your phono, the VU meter in Butt will show you if it's detecting a signal. If your ADV has any amplification, use it. Butt let's you amplify by 24dB with a slider, I suggest using it too. 

As far as your server, if it's running Butt, Roon server, and ice, then you're all set. We should be able to troubleshoot it easily (the same machine is broadcasting, and receiving).

On Fri, Mar 6, 2020 at 1:12 PM Jeffrey Robbins <jrobb...@gmail.com> wrote:

Yes, I see. Leave sample rate blank in Butt settings, hit okay and it is streaming at 96000 sample rate. Now, I’ve done this all remotely, so when I get home, I need to connect the output of phono preamp and see if sound comes around!

But, I only have RoonServer on my core PC, which is running Icecast and Butt. So, I have to figure out how to stream across the network so another PC running Roon can add the radio station. Still can’t get that to work. JCR

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[Jeffrey Robbins]

Attached are the audio settings in buttrc  JCR

[Omid Mostachfi]

Can you move the slider up to +24 dB? It’ll be easier to see if there’s a signal. If there isn’t a signal, look at the input choices you have. Can you take a screenshot of the drop down?

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[Jeffrey Robbins]

Moving the slider had no effect  I assume you mean the dropdown in buttrc?  Screenshot attached.  The USB Streamer is the miniDSP UDIO-8 interface connected to three Musical Fidelity V90 DACs that I currently use for multichannel, pending receipt of my Okto unit. The U24XL is a device I use for 2-channel measurements for Audiolense.  JCR

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[Omid Mostachfi]

The slider is under the VU meter (see attached pic). Can you try  microphone USBstreamer  as your input just  to see. 

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[Jeffrey Robbins]

Yes, I have the slider all the way up. No, using the USB Streamer mic setting doesn’t do anything.

Do you get 0 bitrate as I am getting? That seems odd for a functioning setup. JCR

[Omid Mostachfi]

I’m not home but I think I get 0 bitrate too. 

Do you have any other software that can record music (like Adobe audition)? If the other programs can hear something it’ll tell us the problem is in Butt´s setup. If the other programs don’t hear anything either, it’ll mean the problem resides in the cabling or driver. 

Can you describe your exact setup. mine is: turntable —>rca cable—>step up transformer—>rca to TRS cable (ring disconnected)—>

MOTU8a input—>input trim at +20dB—>routing table to connect to computer USB in—>USB cable 3.1—>pc running windows 10 (control panel setup in advanced sound settings under ‘Recording tab´ set to ´motu in´ as the default recording device, with allow exclusive control unchecked so more than 1 program can use the device). 

On Fri, Mar 6, 2020 at 10:38 PM Jeffrey Robbins <jrobb...@gmail.com> wrote:

Yes, I have the slider all the way up. No, using the USB Streamer mic setting doesn’t do anything.

Do you get 0 bitrate as I am getting?  That seems odd for a functioning setup. JCR

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[Jeffrey Robbins]

OK, Omid.  Success!  Here's how it occurred:

I installed Audacity on my server to see if I record through it.  The MusicHall gave an error message from Audacity relating to the microphone.  It took me a while to figure out how to access group policy management on my Windows Server 2019 server, which is running Audiophile Optimizer as well, so there was no access to "settings" as such.  Once there, I saw that the access to the mic for apps was not set at all.  I set to allow at all times and then Audacity started recording.  So, then I started up Butt again, went to Roon to add a radio station and voila, it works!  16/96, which I haven't yet decided whether that's good enough -- but I guess you've already ascertained that Butt can't move to 24.  See screenshot.  Thanks.  JCR

On Saturday, March 7, 2020 at 8:34:22 AM UTC-6, Omid Mostachfi wrote:

I’m not home but I think I get 0 bitrate too. 

Do you have any other software that can record music (like Adobe audition)? If the other programs can hear something it’ll tell us the problem is in Butt´s setup. If the other programs don’t hear anything either, it’ll mean the problem resides in the cabling or driver. 

Can you describe your exact setup. mine is: turntable —>rca cable—>step up transformer—>rca to TRS cable (ring disconnected)—>

MOTU8a input—>input trim at +20dB—>routing table to connect to computer USB in—>USB cable 3.1—>pc running windows 10 (control panel setup in advanced sound settings under ‘Recording tab´ set to ´motu in´ as the default recording device, with allow exclusive control unchecked so more than 1 program can use the device). 

On Fri, Mar 6, 2020 at 10:38 PM Jeffrey Robbins <jrobb...@gmail.com> wrote:

Yes, I have the slider all the way up. No, using the USB Streamer mic setting doesn’t do anything.

Do you get 0 bitrate as I am getting?  That seems odd for a functioning setup. JCR

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[Omid Mostachfi]

Awesome! 

The guy who wrote Butt said 16 bit was the max. I looked for another software but didn’t come across anything. 

I guess JRiver could potentially read the signal and do DSP but I wanted to run everything through Roon. 

A few people have requested a ´device input’ option in Roon but the developers don’t seem to be interested yet. 

As for the bit depth problem my measurements showed that in my system, it’s irrelevant- same SNR in 32 bit recording in adobe audition as 16 bit Butt Roon recording. 

I have a few albums on 180g press lp and have compared them to their digital version. Overall to my ears, the music sounds warmer, more heavy in base on LP, whereas the lack of background noise is obviously much better in the digital version (ie more detail heard). 

Let is know what you think. 

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[Jeffrey Robbins]

Omid, I think I should also try digital RIAA in Audiolense and just use my stepup transformer. I have a Zu-Audio modified Denon DL-103.

How do I create a filter for that in Audiolense? I have the 6.2 XO version. Thanks. JCR

[Omid Mostachfi]

Audiolense lets you save a RIAA filter or eRIAA filter by itself, or combined with your own 6.2 filter. 

I chose the former option out of laziness. I have 2 convolution filters setup in Roon. The first convolution does a 2 channel eRIAA correction the second does my speaker/room correction (4 channels now). My PC handles the 2 convolutions fine. The advantage is that when I revise my speaker/room filter, I don’t have to do it a second time with RIAA. As you know you have to edit the Audiolense filter in notepad to make it Roon compatible. 

The way you get the Riaa filter is by scrolling down to the bottom of the correction tab. All the options are there. 

On Sun, Mar 8, 2020 at 3:52 PM Jeffrey Robbins <jrobb...@gmail.com> wrote:

Omid, I think I should also try digital RIAA in Audiolense and just use my stepup transformer. I have a Zu-Audio modified Denon DL-103.

How do I create a filter for that in Audiolense?  I have the 6.2 XO version. Thanks. JCR

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[Jeffrey Robbins]

Yes, I see it there. Can you comment on the various options in the screenshot? For example, do I need some measurement for this? Do I pick RIAA and line? You get my point. Thanks. JCR

On Sunday, March 8, 2020 at 6:08:55 PM UTC-5, Omid Mostachfi wrote:
> Audiolense lets you save a RIAA filter or eRIAA filter by itself, or combined with your own 6.2 filter. 
> I chose the former option out of laziness. I have 2 convolution filters setup in Roon. The first convolution does a 2 channel eRIAA correction the second does my speaker/room correction (4 channels now). My PC handles the 2 convolutions fine. The advantage is that when I revise my speaker/room filter, I don’t have to do it a second time with RIAA. As you know you have to edit the Audiolense filter in notepad to make it Roon compatible. 
> The way you get the Riaa filter is by scrolling down to the bottom of the correction tab. All the options are there. 
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Mar 8, 2020 at 3:52 PM Jeffrey Robbins <jrobb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Omid, I think I should also try digital RIAA in Audiolense and just use my stepup transformer. I have a Zu-Audio modified Denon DL-103.
>
>
>
> How do I create a filter for that in Audiolense?  I have the 6.2 XO version. Thanks. JCR
>
>
>
> --
>
> --
>
> Audiolense User Forum.
>
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[Omid Mostachfi]

Yes. So I chose enhanced RIAA under preferred RIAA and then RIAA correction only (the line version combines your room correction and RIAA if you prefer that). And then generate RIAA filter at the bottom. 

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[Jeffrey Robbins]

And then in Roon, do you put your RIAA filter first and the convolution filters second in order for processing and of course enable both? Any attentuation adjustment required? JCR

[Bernt Rønningsbakk]

 

I am thrilled to finally see some interest around the RIAA functionality. It has been dormant for a long time. You guys let me know if there’s anything I should to make it more user friendly.

 

Omid,

 

Could you get me the spec for Roon correction filters + config files? And a working sample? I would like to implement the Roon format as a new feature.

 

Mvh,

Bernt

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[Omid Mostachfi]

Yes RIAA filter first and then the room/speaker filter second. After the convolution filter I unable the ‘speaker setup’ dsp option in Roon and add +23dB gain for each of my 5.1 channels. You don’t have to do that last step. I only do that so the playback of digital files and lps is about the same volume level. 

I save that as a DSP preset called ‘phono’ in Roon. My other preset called ‘digital’ does not have +23dB or the riaa filter activated. 

The downside is if you accidentally play a digital file with the phonI preset engaged your ear drums will bleed!

You know how to modify the audiolense filter to make it Roon compatible?

On Sun, Mar 8, 2020 at 5:13 PM Jeffrey Robbins <jrobb...@gmail.com> wrote:

And then in Roon, do you put your RIAA filter first and the convolution filters second in order for processing and of course enable both?  Any attentuation adjustment required? JCR

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[Jeffrey Robbins]

I do. I’ve been using the services of Mitch Barnett who has been teaching me how to use Audiolense XO. And of course, he pointed out that I must edit each cfg file in Notepad to get the path for the correction .wav to its core file, and only after that, save the cfgs and .wav files together in a zip file. Works like a charm. I have 4 other stereo/multichannel systems at home that I’ll measure and create the filters for.

Omid, you’ve been a very helpful educator. Bernt, this is all quite fascinating. DSP is where the world must go and your software is crazy good at it!

Now, we just have to find a way to implement Home Audio Fidelity’s Room Shaper VST in Roon.

[Omid Mostachfi]

It's been my pleasure Jeffrey. I've been curious about the Room Shaper but didn't give it a go because of the whole VST thing (and feeding Roon's signal to Jriver and then to the stereo seems a bit much).  Have you tried it? And if so how did you implement it?

Did Mitch have to come to your place is the service online?

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[Jeffrey Robbins]

I have not got RS workout in Roon. In fact, I can’t get it to work with my Bel Canto streamer even in JRiver, although I do have up in JRiver with my V90 multichannel USB DAC stack. I have a separate thread going in this forum on the problem with convolution filters and VST plug-ins for DLNA in JRiver, but no one has responded to that yet. Take a look and let me know what you think. https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/audiolense/1babb1ff-a286-4b0a-b304-aa633a2c65b3%40googlegroups.com

MItch Barnett thinks RS does something that no filters otherwise do, so I’d really like to hear it!

Mitch is in Vancouver and I’m in Minneapolis and he’s been doing everything remotely. And it has worked well. JCR

[Omid Mostachfi]

I unfortunately don’t have much experience with JRiver.  I hope the software developers can sort it out for you. 

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[Jeffrey Robbins]

Me too. By the way, I have some notes into several other internet radio streaming clients for use with IceCast2 in contrast to BUTT, seeking up to 24/192 FLAC output support. So far, RocketBroadcaster by Oscillicious (what a name!) advises they too are limited to 16/96. I will keep you posted on what I learn.

I shared the concepts here with John Stronczer, CEO and founder of Bel Canto Design. Here’s what he had to say:

“16 is ok if you can set the levels to use at least 14 bits, i.e. peaks are at least at -12dB, better if closer to -6dB. This should work OK. Our internal path for analog [in the Bel Canto Black series of products] is 24/192.“

JCR

[Jeffrey Robbins]

Omid, I am wondering what you know about MPD. It appears it can act as a source client for Icecast2 and can operate up to DSD, so 24/192 for vinyl would thus be possible. Let me know. Thanks. JCR

[Omid Mostachfi]

I haven’t heard of it before but I’ll check it out. Thanks 

On Tue, Mar 10, 2020 at 6:17 AM Jeffrey Robbins <jrobb...@gmail.com> wrote:

Omid, I am wondering what you know about MPD. It appears it can act as a source client for Icecast2 and can operate up to DSD, so 24/192 for vinyl would thus be possible. Let me know. Thanks. JCR

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[Omid Mostachfi]

Unfortunately MPD only runs on Linux only. 

On Tue, Mar 10, 2020 at 6:17 AM Jeffrey Robbins <jrobb...@gmail.com> wrote:

Omid, I am wondering what you know about MPD. It appears it can act as a source client for Icecast2 and can operate up to DSD, so 24/192 for vinyl would thus be possible. Let me know. Thanks. JCR

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[Jeffrey Robbins]

Well, Omid, thank you for checking. I’ve not found anything else for a source client beyond 16/96, and I’ve looked through a lot of products.

I am actually enjoying vinyl through the Audiolense filter set listened to this crazy Mercury PPSD 3-12 Galaxy album )look it up). A lot of dynamic range even at 16/96.

But, my friend, John Stronczer from Bel Canto, says I should not even bother to try RIAA at 16/96. His Black product line digitizes the phono input at 24/192, and he thinks that’s the minimum. Have you — or Bernt — tried the RIAA at no higher than 16/96? Wondering what you think.

Bernt, I vote for the click removal ala SweetVinyl! JCR

[Omid Mostachfi]

liquidsoap and roaraudio do allow for 24 and 32 bit but the interface is not user friendly.

I agree in principle with more bit depth to fully capture a low voltage signal, but in my case the measurement showed that it would not make a difference.

Can your friend generate measurements to show the difference (with an actual lp recording)? That'd be very interesting data to see. It'd be as simple as measuring the output of your setup with butt/icecast/roon vs the signal coming from 'Black'.

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[Jeffrey Robbins]

Yes, Omid, I see how complicated those setups seem to be. Are you taking a go at it? I do note that MPD can compile for Windows or is there any reason not to figure out an MPD client source on an RPi3 or 4 device running DietPi or similar and have it output to a Windows Server running Icecast? It’s clear that MPD can do 24 or 32 bit. JCR

[Omid Mostachfi]

It’s doable, but a lot of effort (and next level nerd!). Because I can’t measure a difference I’m not keen on spending the extra time. 

If you do manage though do let me know. 

On Fri, Mar 13, 2020 at 11:38 AM Jeffrey Robbins <jrobb...@gmail.com> wrote:

Yes, Omid, I see how complicated those setups seem to be. Are you taking a go at it?  I do note that MPD can compile for Windows or is there any reason not to figure out an MPD client source on an RPi3 or 4 device running DietPi or similar and have it output to a Windows Server running Icecast?  It’s clear that MPD can do 24 or 32 bit. JCR

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[Omid Mostachfi]

Bernt, that would be great. Thank you for offering that.

Roon just needs a relative file path for the wave file rather than an absolute file path. 

It also doesn’t accept a cfg file that is a collection of cfg files. Instead it was all the wave and cfg files for the various sampling rates zipped together. 

I've attached as an example one of my zipped files.

Here are Roon's directions (https://kb.roonlabs.com/DSP_Engine:_Convolution).

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[Jeffrey Robbins]

Omid, I’m at a new loss. My Icecast radio station has stopped functioning. Roon is no longer recognizing 192.168.0.233:8000/stream as a radio station. I can’t figure out why it would stop working. Any ideas? JCR

[Omid Mostachfi]

That sometimes happens for me as well. I turn off butt, and icecast and restart them.

On Wed, Apr 1, 2020 at 1:13 PM Jeffrey Robbins <jrobb...@gmail.com> wrote:

Omid, I’m at a new loss. My Icecast radio station has stopped functioning.  Roon is no longer recognizing 192.168.0.233:8000/stream as a radio station. I can’t figure out why it would stop working. Any ideas?  JCR

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[Jeffrey Robbins]

Were it THAT simple. I’ve rebooted Icecast, BUTT and even the entire server and Roon, to no avail. The one hardware difference is that before, I was using an external A-to-D converter and taking the digitized vinyl into the server via USB. Now, I’ve installed my Lynx AES16e card right into the server. I can’t see why that should matter. The Lynx supports 24/192, whereas the external device was 24/96. So, I did change the BUTT settings in Buttr to 192000 and have that set on the Lynx mixer at 24/192. At first, Roon reported 16/192 for the radio station, then stopped working. Going back to 96000 in Buttr doesn’t get it working again. I’m stumped. JCR

[Omid Mostachfi]

Do you see a signal in BUTT’s VU meter when you play an LP?

On Wed, Apr 1, 2020 at 1:55 PM Jeffrey Robbins <jrobb...@gmail.com> wrote:

Were it THAT simple. I’ve rebooted Icecast, BUTT and even the entire server and Roon, to no avail. The one hardware difference is that before, I was using an external A-to-D converter and taking the digitized vinyl into the server via USB. Now, I’ve installed my Lynx AES16e card right into the server. I can’t see why that should matter. The Lynx supports 24/192, whereas the external device was 24/96. So, I did change the BUTT settings in Buttr to 192000 and have that set on the Lynx mixer at 24/192. At first, Roon reported 16/192 for the radio station, then stopped working. Going back to 96000 in Buttr doesn’t get it working again. I’m stumped. JCR

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[Omid Mostachfi]

what hardware are you using to convert your analog turntable signal to a digital AES format?

[Jeffrey Robbins]

You are asking the right questions, Omid.  To each:

Conversion hardware is a Benchmark ADC1 A2D converter, connected via XLR to IN1 of a Lynx AES15e PCIe soundcard at 24/192 which I've installed into my Roon core server (running, as before, Windows Server 2019).  Previously, when all was working, I was using an outboard Music Hall PA2.2 A2D converter, with USB out into the Roon core server at 24/96, and no separate soundcard installed in the server.

The Benchmark/Lynx combo was previously on a separate PC and I was successfully using it to digitize analog cassette tapes and recording them using Audacity.  I decided to move the Lynx to the Roon core server because it is a better A2D than the Music Hall device, and will run at 24/192 rather than just at 24/96.

As now configured, the Benchmark VU meters are clearly showing that the vinyl input is there.  See Lynx 1 photo attached.  But, you are right:  BUTT VU meters are not moving -- and, if I click on the arrow to the right of the stream time screen (which shows that BUTT is operating), it shows stream sent 0.00 Mb.

Going back to BUTT settings in the app itself, I made no changes in the Main category.  In the Audio category, the Audio Device automatically changed from the prior Music Hall device to Record 01+02 (Lynx AES16e).  That seems right to me.  See BUTT 2 photo attached.  I changed the 96000 rate in Buttr to 192000 (see Buttr 1 photo attached) and that the is the rate that shows on BUTT when playing.

But again, this must be related to that BUTT shows no Mbs of data that are streaming.  I assume you see an amount of data streaming, so why do you think I'm not seeing the same?  Thanks.  JCR

On Wednesday, April 1, 2020 at 4:12:41 PM UTC-5, Omid Mostachfi wrote:

what hardware are you using to convert your analog turntable signal to a digital AES format?

On Wed, Apr 1, 2020 at 2:02 PM Omid Mostachfi <omidmo...@gmail.com> wrote:

Do you see a signal in BUTT’s VU meter when you play an LP?

On Wed, Apr 1, 2020 at 1:55 PM Jeffrey Robbins <jrobb...@gmail.com> wrote:

Were it THAT simple. I’ve rebooted Icecast, BUTT and even the entire server and Roon, to no avail. The one hardware difference is that before, I was using an external A-to-D converter and taking the digitized vinyl into the server via USB. Now, I’ve installed my Lynx AES16e card right into the server. I can’t see why that should matter. The Lynx supports 24/192, whereas the external device was 24/96. So, I did change the BUTT settings in Buttr to 192000 and have that set on the Lynx mixer at 24/192. At first, Roon reported 16/192 for the radio station, then stopped working. Going back to 96000 in Buttr doesn’t get it working again. I’m stumped. JCR

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[Omid Mostachfi]

Holy cow! How much gear do you have??

My BUTT always shows a bitrate of 0. I think the bitrate is only active when you stream in MP3 format, not flac.

The fact that the VU meter shows no signal, tells me the signal from lynx is not making it into BUTT. I don't have a lynx, but shouldn't the audio device in Butt be something like Lynx output rather than record?

Can you see if audacity can record the signal out of your lynx card?

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[Jeffrey Robbins]

I agree with your assessment.  See the photo attached of the ASIO4all screen and what it says about the Lynx.  I may need to ask the Lynx folks what that is all about.  Clearly, something is not going right with the Lynx soundcard and that must be the issue.

I have too much stuff.  Spring cleaning has been underway for several days.  See photo of the mess -- most everything there, and more, was behind the TV -- and most everything you see is excess that I no longer use.  Ridiculous.  JCR

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[Omid Mostachfi]

Looking at the picture you sent, it looks like the digital input into the lynx, isn't getting  sent to record 1+2. Is there a right click or something you can do on record 1+2 in the lynx software to tell it to link digital input 1? My Motu ADC/DAC has an awesome routing table for doing that.

Wow, that is a lot of gear on your carpet. Good luck with the cleaning.

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[Jeffrey Robbins]

Hello, Omid.  I am happy to report success!  See attached photo:  phono through Roon at 16/192!  Now, if we can only get to 24 bit...

Essentially, I uninstalled and reinstalled asio4all.  That didn't do it.  Further searching online led me to, of all things, a third party asio4all manual which, under troubleshooting, stated: " Beyond Logic - Similar to 'unavailable', if the control panel of your card provides the option to lock the sample rate, deselect it. This is a known cause of 'Beyond Logic' errors."

Turns out, the Lynx Mixer has a rate lock and a synchrolock.  I deselected and asio4all no longer had the strange symbol, but rather the normal pointer.  Roon then allowed me to re-set up a radio station.  However, it started as 16/44.  I went back into the Lynx Mixer and manually selected 192000 as the rate and then set the lock.  That did it!

Thanks for your troubleshooting assistance.

I suppose the next stupidity I will try is the RIAA.  I've been troubled by the 16 bit rather than 24 bit.  But, when Roon applies the convolution filters, including an RIAA one, it will actually be at 64 bit, is that not so?  Just as it shows in the attached photo for the regular convolution filters.

Oh, and I cleaned up the mess all over my carpet.  What's left to deal with are the superfluous devices on the glass table.  Going to have an Audiogon field day after I find all of the boxes for these things.  Cheers.  JCR

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[Omid Mostachfi]

That's fantastic. Good to know about the ASIO4ALL issue. It might come in handy one day. 

Yes Roon will convert the signal to 64 bit from 16 bit, but it is not re-creating any lost info. Once BUTT has truncated the 24 bit down to 16 bits, the last 8 bits of signal are lost. However, since vinyls only have a dynamic range of ~12 bits it might not be a big deal (or at least in my system as per my measurements it wasn't).

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[Jeffrey Robbins]

Yes, understood. So, now the RIAA issue. Taking the phono preamp out of the equation means an awfully small signal to amplify. You got it to work? Or do you use a step up transformer? I do have that to use. JCR

[Omid Mostachfi]

I use a step-up, but it worked without it too.

On Thu, Apr 2, 2020 at 2:11 PM Jeffrey Robbins <jrobb...@gmail.com> wrote:

Yes, understood. So, now the RIAA issue. Taking the phono preamp out of the equation means an awfully small signal to amplify. You got it to work?  Or do you use a step up transformer?  I do have that to use. JCR

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[Omid Mostachfi]

I also get butt to amplify by 24dB

[Jeffrey Robbins]

Thanks — once I get the basement cleaned up, I will give it a try. I have two step up transformers so it be interesting to listen for any differences. I will report back. JCR

[carl marchetto]

Hello Omid,

I still very much enjoy spinning vinyl. How are are you introducing Vinyl into the digial Roon or JRiver domain? Using a ADC to introduce the signal where is it real time or a digital file of the vinyl into the chain?

Can you explain, Ill still use my phono preamp with moving coil. I am stuck I currently use an all active 3 way DEQX corrected system Now. But am now learning Audiolense to move filters into Roon with a new multichannel Dac or remove all the filters in DEQX and just use its DACs. I'm not giving up vinyl.

Can you explain your configuration?

thanks

On Wednesday, February 19, 2020 at 12:59:42 PM UTC-5, Omid Mostachfi wrote:

Hi Brent,

I've gotten rid of my phono pre-amp. Instead I've been using your RIAA DSP solution  (and amplifying the signal in the digital domain). It sounds great and has eliminated the 60Hz buzz my phono pre-amp created (a ground loop I couldn't eliminate). I'm wondering if there is a DSP implementation that could remove clicks, pops etc as well. I realize this is not your focus, but it could be a potential attractive option for some prospective clients.

Cheers.

[Omid Mostachfi]

Hi Carl,

There are several ways to introduce vinyl into your system. 

First is the turntable to PC connection: 

You can connect the cartridge directly to your PC (+/- step up, +/- phono pre-amp). If no pre-amp --> connect to mic in, if pre-amp used, connect to line-in.

You can connect the cartridge  (+/- step up, +/- phono pre-amp) to an ADC (presumably better quality than the PC sound card) and then to your PC usually via USB . 
NB: If you do not put your phono preamp in the chain, you will need to use DSP to do your RIAA correction. This is what I did, as my phono caused a ground loop hum.

In the PC:

JRiver might be more straightforward, as it allows you to play sound coming from an input device (after you enable WDM). Then you would do a RIAA DSP correction if you didn't use your phono pre-amp,and a second DSP (to replace DEQX). The latency between dropping the needle until you hear music would be negligible (milliseconds).

Roon only allows a radio station as an input. You have to take the sound input into a program called BUTT, then to Icecast which creates a radio broadcast (just in your PC) flac quality (16 bit, sample rate anywhere from 44kHz to 192kHz). You get Roon to tune in to this fake radio station. Then the same DSP steps as JRiver. The latency is around 6 seconds. 

You could also record the audio input with Adobe audition or whatever program you like, and even remove hiss pop crackles, and save it for future play. I haven't done that because it takes the charm and ritual of vinyl away.

Hope this helps. If you look at the thread, my exchange with Jeffrey details how to do this step by step.

Omid.

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[carl marchetto]

Omid 

Wow you surly took time to respond !! Thank you .. I’ll study and respond 

Carl

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[carl marchetto]

Hi Omid 

I understand the flow. Painful with vinyl & Roon it seems. So I’m imagining that some members jump back and forth between JRiver and Roon depending what the source is . In my case I would use Roon for my digital content ( my files) and Qobuz, - jriver for Vinyl ? 

 alright I’ve got lots to think about.. so to hear you’ve got a 60hz ground loop ... maybe it’s the crappy PC in the audio chain.

I’m great for now thanks for the details here, very clear 

Stay well safe 

Carl

[Jeffrey Robbins]

Carl, it’s a bit tricky to set vinyl up to work in Roon but then it really is nothing more than pick your phonograph radio station from My Live Radio, hit play and then just play your turntable. The six second latency gives you enough time to do the needle drop and sit down to listen to a nice side of vinyl. :) But so far, the limit is 16/192 as Omid notes. I’m trying to find a source client that will support 24 bit. (Omid, I’ve asked the Qobuz team, as they stream 24/192, but nothing yet heard back.)

Omid, can we get 24/192 into JRiver? I have that on my core server as well, so I’m open to giving that a whirl as well, if you can describe how. If it’s still 16 bit, I’ll stick with Roon. Thanks. JCR

[carl marchetto]

Hi Jeff thanks for this info.  I have a PS Audio NuWave Phono Converter that might have a role to play, real-time digital output stream “ like that radio station” I just don’t know .

Carl

On Mon, Apr 6, 2020 at 10:25 PM Jeffrey Robbins <jrobb...@gmail.com> wrote:

Carl, it’s a bit tricky to set vinyl up to work in Roon but then it really is nothing more than pick your phonograph radio station from My Live Radio, hit play and then just play your turntable. The six second latency gives you enough time to do the needle drop and sit down to listen to a nice side of vinyl. :)  But so far, the limit is 16/192 as Omid notes. I’m trying to find a source client that will support 24 bit. (Omid, I’ve asked the Qobuz team, as they stream 24/192, but nothing yet heard back.)

Omid, can we get 24/192 into JRiver?  I have that on my core server as well, so I’m open to giving that a whirl as well, if you can describe how. If it’s still 16 bit, I’ll stick with Roon. Thanks. JCR

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[Omid Mostachfi]

Yes. I think you would be able to get 24bit it in JRiver. I’ve tried to put everything in Roon so I can use one volume controller for my whole system and also only use 1 program. 

Try it out, and let us know how it works out. Just for curiosity once you do it do it try both 16 bit and 24 bit, records both signals and compare them (in terms of signal to noise ratio, rather than subjective impression :) ). 

On Mon, Apr 6, 2020 at 7:25 PM Jeffrey Robbins <jrobb...@gmail.com> wrote:

Carl, it’s a bit tricky to set vinyl up to work in Roon but then it really is nothing more than pick your phonograph radio station from My Live Radio, hit play and then just play your turntable. The six second latency gives you enough time to do the needle drop and sit down to listen to a nice side of vinyl. :)  But so far, the limit is 16/192 as Omid notes. I’m trying to find a source client that will support 24 bit. (Omid, I’ve asked the Qobuz team, as they stream 24/192, but nothing yet heard back.)

Omid, can we get 24/192 into JRiver?  I have that on my core server as well, so I’m open to giving that a whirl as well, if you can describe how. If it’s still 16 bit, I’ll stick with Roon. Thanks. JCR

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[Jeffrey Robbins]

Omid, will you share how I might take the digital input of my converted vinyl from my Lynx AES16 sound care into JRiver? Keep in mind that my playback device is a DLNA streamer and not a USB DAC. Thanks. JCR

[Omid Mostachfi]

Sorry Jeffrey, I use Roon. I have played a bit with JRiver but never used it with DLNA. For a regular input, Under file, scroll down to Open Live, then choose the driver for your ADC. Then push play. You'll also need to choose your output and DSP under options, and WDM driver option in options, general (for a regular ADC, not sure about DLNA).

On Tue, Apr 7, 2020 at 7:36 AM Jeffrey Robbins <jrobb...@gmail.com> wrote:

Omid, will you share how I might take the digital input of my converted vinyl from my Lynx AES16 sound care into JRiver?  Keep in mind that my playback device is a DLNA streamer and not a USB DAC. Thanks. JCR

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[Omid Mostachfi]

Just for interest, here 's a graph to show the difference between 16 and 32 bit. I've recorded my turntable + step up transformer + ADC (24bit 96Khz) output with adobe audition (no RIAA correction). One recording is 16 bit 96kHz, the other 32bit 96kHz. The graph is a spectral analysis of the 3150Hz pure tone track on my test LP.

Note that the signal peak is around -62 dB, and the noise floor at -120dB for 16 bit vs -124dB for 32 bit. It don't think that's audible. Especially when you look at how loud the harmonics and 60 Hz hum are (PS I can't hear the 60Hz signal, it's just the RFI picked up by my cables).

 

[carl marchetto]

Omid, great data,, as soon as I get my system running I’d be glad To Make these measurements to Compare.

I had very very good performance with very low capacitance cables from Blue Jean Cables. They out perform the $$$ others.

What equipment is needed to Perform these noise Measurements I’d like to conduct the same.

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[Omid Mostachfi]

Just a turntable, an ADC and your computer running a program like Adobe Audition 3 (free but hard to find).

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[Jeffrey Robbins]

Just wanted to give the Forum an update.  I now have successfully setup my main system to digitize vinyl at 32/192 and for playback with only about a 2 second delay through AL convolution filters.  I am using HQ Player as the input mechanism and outputting to a Pro-Ject PreBox S2 DAC, upscaling to DSD128.  And it works and sounds very nice!  I tried upscaling to DSD256 and DSD512, but even my i7 server with 16Gb of RAM is not up to the task.

So, this also demonstrates that the mono wav file software update that Bernt made available works, as HQP only takes in mono wav files for convolution.  And it also demonstrates that the 384 bit rate for the filters in the latest software update works, as HQP is scaling from just the 384 mono wav files I inputted into its settings.

Bernt, my next question is:  with HQP having the ability to accept only one set of convolution filters, how can I incorporate your RIAA into the playback chain so as to take my phono preamp out of the loop?  My understanding in Roon is that I could set up two convolution filters, a normal one and one just for RIAA, and then they could run in series.  Is there a way to apply the RIAA to a mono wav file in AL?  If not, perhaps there is a reasonable way for you to include that functionality in a future update.  Thanks.  JCR

[Bernt Rønningsbakk]

Congrats on your success with the vinyl playback.

 

You can create correction filters with RIAA correction included.

 

Mvh,

Bernt

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[carl marchetto]

Congratulations on this milestone!! I have the exact same objective to listen To my vinyl.

Can you add some more detail to how you are accomplishing this. What’s the signal path are you using HQ player inside of Roon ?

More detail would be greatly appreciated

Bruno

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[Jeffrey Robbins]

Carl, it's not as seamless as I'd like.  But, here's how it is working:

turntable -> step-up transformer -> phono preamp -> Benchmark AD1 converter -> Lynx AES16e (in Roon/HQP server) -> rPi3B (configured as NAA) -> DAC, with the last connection being USB.  Sounds great.  But, to mitigate the effects of USB, I just got a microRendu ethernet-to-USB bridge, which will act as an NAA and RoonBridge device (replacing the rpi3B).  It's now up and running this evening.

The rpi3B I used before the microRendu arrived is programmed with DietPi and two installed software programs:  RoonBridge and NAA.

With RoonBridge on the rpi3B, Roon sees the NAA as an endpoint, and you can configure it as normal, but with no convolution filters.

With the microRendu, you have to use the audio app switcher on the microRendu local IP address webpage to select HQP.

For filters, I re-ran AL using my prior main system 2-channel measurements and same target, but selecting mono wav as the AL output and saving only one bitrate, 384000.

I have HQ Player desktop on my Roon server.  Attached is what the settings look like for both the rpi3 and the microRendu (the only difference being the output device).  Note that the NAA is identified as the output device and my Lynx AES16e card (channels 1&2) are identified as the input channels.  My Pro-Ject Pre Box S2 Digital DAC which I have dedicated to this functionality can do 32/768 and DSD512.  I can't get past DSD128 without stuttering.  A reason to build the upcoming CAPS20 server.

The AL filters are loaded in the Matrix setting.

To play phono, you must select a playback rate -- you'll see I selected 192000/24.  Once selected, enter and then play.  The timer on the right will then get underway.  The delay from needledrop to sound is 2-3 seconds -- much shorter than with the former Icecast/BUTT/Roon radio station method.  I stop HQP when I'm done listening to vinyl.  You can't start or stop HQP for vinyl playback through Roon.  I use VNC Viewer on my server to remote access in for control.

I've not done a lot of tinkering with Roon through HQP, but HQP shows up as an endpoint in Roon without any further adjustments on the rpi3B or the microRendu.

I hope this will help in getting underway.  I am quite impressed.  JCR

On Thursday, July 2, 2020 at 7:30:24 AM UTC-5, Bruno wrote:

Congratulations on this milestone!! I have the exact same objective to listen To my vinyl.

Can you add some more detail to how you are accomplishing this. What’s the signal path are you using HQ player inside of Roon ?

More detail would be greatly appreciated

Bruno

On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 9:42 PM Jeffrey Robbins <jrobb...@gmail.com> wrote:

Just wanted to give the Forum an update.  I now have successfully setup my main system to digitize vinyl at 32/192 and for playback with only about a 2 second delay through AL convolution filters.  I am using HQ Player as the input mechanism and outputting to a Pro-Ject PreBox S2 DAC, upscaling to DSD128.  And it works and sounds very nice!  I tried upscaling to DSD256 and DSD512, but even my i7 server with 16Gb of RAM is not up to the task.

So, this also demonstrates that the mono wav file software update that Bernt made available works, as HQP only takes in mono wav files for convolution.  And it also demonstrates that the 384 bit rate for the filters in the latest software update works, as HQP is scaling from just the 384 mono wav files I inputted into its settings.

Bernt, my next question is:  with HQP having the ability to accept only one set of convolution filters, how can I incorporate your RIAA into the playback chain so as to take my phono preamp out of the loop?  My understanding in Roon is that I could set up two convolution filters, a normal one and one just for RIAA, and then they could run in series.  Is there a way to apply the RIAA to a mono wav file in AL?  If not, perhaps there is a reasonable way for you to include that functionality in a future update.  Thanks.  JCR

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[DRCuser]

Hi,

Double check with the HQP Developer but I believe you can now have multiple files loaded into HQP. For multiple systems or comparisons between filters.

There was a recent update to allow this I think.

Easier with Roon but I think now better with HQP now than before.

[carl marchetto]

Hi Jeffrey thank you for taking time to describe the set-up ! I’m in the middle of a home move so everything is getting packed up. Well let’s hope so.

I’m using a couple of RPi3B with IQAudio ProDACs with XLR and Ropiee software, works great.

I haven’t tried HQP yet that will be the next step with in Roon

Once we land I’ll get back on track 

Cheers 

Bruno 

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[NiToNi]

Not as cool obviously but wouldn't be a whole lot easier to digitize and record your LPs to HDD and playback them that way (through Roon, HQP or whatever) rather than messing with fake live radio station etc...? This way they would be at your finger tip for convenience too. But I can see ritual magic in spinning vinyl real time though :)

[carl marchetto]

Yes but the Ritual magic with vinyl Single malt  Scotch and Cigar is underestimated 

I will probably end up there :(

On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 12:27 PM NiToNi <niklas_t...@hotmail.com> wrote:

Not as cool obviously but wouldn't be a whole lot easier to digitize and record your LPs to HDD and playback them that way (through Roon, HQP or whatever) rather than messing with fake live radio station etc...? This way they would be at your finger tip for convenience too. But I can see ritual magic in spinning vinyl real time though :)

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[Jeffrey Robbins]

If I were going to record my vinyl for posterity, then I’d be cleaning every record before playing, using SweetVinyl to remove clicks, separating tracks in Audacity and mining for metadata. That’s all OCD work that I don’t want to do. I just want to listen to vinyl but have the sound EQ’d through Audiolense filters to sound better. With HQ Player, all I do now is use VNC Viewer on my iPhone to start HQP on my server and then I close VNC and just listen to vinyl, period. No kludgie Roon radio stations any longer. And instead of the 5-6 second delay in Roon, it’s only 1/2 to a second in HQP, so no big deal. 32/192 input is upsampled to DSD128 with AL filters and voila, bring on that single malt scotch. JCR

[carl marchetto]

Now that’s what I talking about, voila ... done just the way I’d like now but better !!!

Cam

On Sat, Jul 11, 2020 at 12:14 AM Jeffrey Robbins <jrobb...@gmail.com> wrote:

If I were going to record my vinyl for posterity, then I’d be cleaning every record before playing, using SweetVinyl to remove clicks, separating tracks in Audacity and mining for metadata. That’s all OCD work that I don’t want to do. I just want to listen to vinyl but have the sound EQ’d through Audiolense filters to sound better. With HQ Player, all I do now is use VNC Viewer on my iPhone to start HQP on my server and then I close VNC and just listen to vinyl, period. No kludgie Roon radio stations any longer. And instead of the 5-6 second delay in Roon, it’s only 1/2 to a second in HQP, so no big deal. 32/192 input is upsampled to DSD128 with AL filters and voila, bring on that single malt scotch. JCR

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[NiToNi]

Haha... great going!! Which sounds better, Laphroaig or Lagavulin? Inquiring minds want to know... 

[carl marchetto]

The Macallan's 18

On Sat, Jul 11, 2020 at 5:40 AM NiToNi <niklas_t...@hotmail.com> wrote:

Haha... great going!! Which sounds better, Laphroaig or Lagavulin? Inquiring minds want to know... 

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