What is the best way to Level Match Subs & Main Towers if Ideal X-Over Freq is still unknown (During intial Audiolense setup)

[ChrisF1]

Hello,

I'm using a pair of Rythmik E15HP2 Subs and my main tower speakers are Magico S3's. The main towers are "almost" full range (solid to 30hz or so). Its my understanding that when using a program like Audiolense or similar to take over all control of the Subs you should disable any internal x-over,phase/delay,HPF..etc features on the Sub itself and let Audiolense handle the heavy work.

Assuming this is all true, its also my understanding that what you should still try and do is Level-Match the Subs with the Mains. Typically the process for this is you choose a Test Tone at the X-Over Freq playing at the loudest level you would typically ever listen at and play that thru the Mains First, one speaker at a time while noting the DB level at the listening position. You then do the same thing with just the Sub playing that same Test Tone and then adjust the gain of the Sub to match the level heard while the Main speaker was playing.

So what is the best Freq to use for this process if the ideal SUB X-Over point is still unknown when first taking measurements for the purposes of generating filters within Audiolense? It would seem that the volume chosen on the Sub could have a profound effect of what the charts look like within the program. I could of course just take a stab in the dark at a X-Over Freq that I think I would like to use and start there as my baseline but I wonder if there is a better/more ideal approach?

Thanks for any info you can provide

[Neal DaMommio]

I have no idea if this will help in your situation but-

https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/ca-academy/%C2%A0integrating-subwoofers-with-stereo-mains-using-audiolense-r712/

 

Neal

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[ChrisF1]

Hello, Thanks for the link. I have indeed seen that excellent post by Mitcho but unfortunately he only mentions the need to level match the sub and main speakers.

For the time being I'm just going to pick a 50hz X-Over Freq to play with.

As a few side comment/questions

Is there some reason why within the program I am unable to type in a value for the Sub X-Over Freq's? Whenever I go into the Cross Over Config Tab and type a number into the Low Pass field it just disappears after leaving that field?

Question #2

Inside the Edit Speaker Tab I see "LFE Cutoff Freq". Is that saying that the Sub is allowed to play UPTO this Freq? If so, then why is it that when I view the X-Over graph it shows the Sub Slope falling off at the same X-Over Freq that is chosen for the Main speakers? By the time the chart lists 180hz the sub has already dropped off before getting there.

Question #3

Can someone please explain what the values seen in the "Playback Format and Channel Routing" Tab are meant to signify? I'm not following what "1.00" means or stands for? What is the expected outcome meant to be by placing a "1.00" or other value into these various fields?

Thanks for the help

On Friday, July 19, 2019 at 4:18:54 PM UTC-6, Neal wrote:

I have no idea if this will help in your situation but-

https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/ca-academy/%C2%A0integrating-subwoofers-with-stereo-mains-using-audiolense-r712/

 

Neal

 

From: audio...@googlegroups.com [mailto:audio...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of ChrisF1
Sent: Friday, July 19, 2019 4:42 PM
To: Audiolense User Forum
Subject: [audiolense] What is the best way to Level Match Subs & Main Towers if Ideal X-Over Freq is still unknown (During intial Audiolense setup)

 

Hello,

 

I'm using a pair of Rythmik E15HP2 Subs and my main tower speakers are Magico S3's. The main towers are "almost" full range (solid to 30hz or so). Its my understanding that when using a program like Audiolense or similar to take over all control of the Subs you should disable any internal x-over,phase/delay,HPF..etc features on the Sub itself and let Audiolense handle the heavy work.

 

Assuming this is all true, its also my understanding that what you should still try and do is Level-Match the Subs with the Mains. Typically the process for this is you choose a Test Tone at the X-Over Freq playing at the loudest level you would typically ever listen at and play that thru the Mains First, one speaker at a time while noting the DB level at the listening position. You then do the same thing with just the Sub playing that same Test Tone and then adjust the gain of the Sub to match the level heard while the Main speaker was playing.

 

So what is the best Freq to use for this process if the ideal SUB X-Over point is still unknown when first taking measurements for the purposes of generating filters within Audiolense? It would seem that the volume chosen on the Sub could have a profound effect of what the charts look like within the program. I could of course just take a stab in the dark at a X-Over Freq that I think I would like to use and start there as my baseline but I wonder if there is a better/more ideal approach?

 

Thanks for any info you can provide

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[Mitch Barnett]

Hi Chris,

 

I would look at the f3 point of your mains in your room as measured by Audiolense. In my case, the JBL 4722 cabs spec’d f3 is 40 Hz and measured in room, confirms. But I also use https://amcoustics.com/tools/amroc to have a look at room modes given the dimensions of your room. Note if you hover over the chart and route the audio through your system, it will play the frequency where you place your mouse cursor. REW also has a pretty good room simulator. In my case, I had a strong room mode at 40 Hz and not quite as strong at 50 Hz. So I chose an XO point of 46 Hz, in-between the two room modes and happy with the result.

 

Wrt the other questions, I don’t have the exact answers, but can show you my setup and maybe that will help.

First, I presume you have a stereo setup and not 5.1? So, playback format should be 2 channels stereo like attached.

 

See attached speaker and bass management. I can’t remember where the 250Hz came from lol J

 

Finally, see attached digital XO. While mine is a 3 way, you can ignore the 630Hz entry. I went with the default settings of fixed XO width, but something to keep in mind. I also use TTD correction and TTD per driver enabled in the Correction Procedure Designer. Also, depending on the level of correction wanted/required, try 12 dB of correction instead of 6dB.

 

Love those Rythmik subs! I upgraded my dual L12’s to dual F18’s – lots of fun! The dual E15HP2  should work very well with your Magico S3’s.

 

Hope that helps a bit.

 

Cheers,

Mitch

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[mark specht]

Chris,

did everything as described by Mitch. Wrt XO frequency: You can just move the XO freq in e.g. 5 db steps (WITHIN THE SAME MEASUREMENT  - you just need to change speaker setup, run filter measurement and generate filters again) and look at the frequency response (FR). I ended up with 85 Hz (I have 2 Rythmik F18s and mains are Wilson Alexias - so I would habe expected 40-60 Hz XO freq as ideal. That may sound strange, but FR was the most even with this XO point).

In contrast, my other setup is 2 small JBL 705p + 2 JL Audio E112s - here the optimal XO seems to be 52 Hz. Which again seems odd, I would have thought something closer to 80 was ideal.

Just copy screenshots of various XOs in Powerpoint and study the FR - that’s what helped me (apart from Mitch‘s article, which is of course the basis for everything).

It all depends on your room + Speaker placement.

Cheers

Mark

Am 20.07.2019 um 16:12 schrieb Mitch Barnett <mitch...@gmail.com>:

Hi Chris,

 

I would look at the f3 point of your mains in your room as measured by Audiolense. In my case, the JBL 4722 cabs spec’d f3 is 40 Hz and measured in room, confirms. But I also use https://amcoustics.com/tools/amroc to have a look at room modes given the dimensions of your room. Note if you hover over the chart and route the audio through your system, it will play the frequency where you place your mouse cursor. REW also has a pretty good room simulator. In my case, I had a strong room mode at 40 Hz and not quite as strong at 50 Hz. So I chose an XO point of 46 Hz, in-between the two room modes and happy with the result.

 

Wrt the other questions, I don’t have the exact answers, but can show you my setup and maybe that will help.

First, I presume you have a stereo setup and not 5.1? So, playback format should be 2 channels stereo like attached.

 

See attached speaker and bass management. I can’t remember where the 250Hz came from lol J

 

Finally, see attached digital XO. While mine is a 3 way, you can ignore the 630Hz entry. I went with the default settings of fixed XO width, but something to keep in mind. I also use TTD correction and TTD per driver enabled in the Correction Procedure Designer. Also, depending on the level of correction wanted/required, try 12 dB of correction instead of 6dB.

 

Love those Rythmik subs! I upgraded my dual L12’s to dual F18’s – lots of fun! The dual E15HP2  should work very well with your Magico S3’s.

 

Hope that helps a bit.

 

Cheers,

Mitch

 

From: audio...@googlegroups.com [mailto:audio...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of ChrisF1
Sent: Friday, July 19, 2019 3:55 PM
To: Audiolense User Forum <audio...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [audiolense] What is the best way to Level Match Subs & Main Towers if Ideal X-Over Freq is still unknown (During intial Audiolense setup)

 

Hello, Thanks for the link. I have indeed seen that excellent post by Mitcho but unfortunately he only mentions the need to level match the sub and main speakers.

 

For the time being I'm just going to pick a 50hz X-Over Freq to play with.

 

As a few side comment/questions

 

Is there some reason why within the program I am unable to type in a value for the Sub X-Over Freq's? Whenever I go into the Cross Over Config Tab and type a number into the Low Pass field it just disappears after leaving that field?

 

<image002.png>

 

 

Question #2

 

Inside the Edit Speaker Tab I see "LFE Cutoff Freq". Is that saying that the Sub is allowed to play UPTO this Freq? If so, then why is it that when I view the X-Over graph it shows the Sub Slope falling off at the same X-Over Freq that is chosen for the Main speakers? By the time the chart lists 180hz the sub has already dropped off before getting there.

 

<image004.png>

 

<image006.png>

Question #3

 

Can someone please explain what the values seen in the "Playback Format and Channel Routing" Tab are meant to signify? I'm not following what "1.00" means or stands for? What is the expected outcome meant to be by placing a "1.00" or other value into these various fields?

 

<image008.png>

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/audiolense/000001d53f05%243723b110%24a56b1330%24%40gmail.com.

<playback format.JPG>

<speaker and bass management.jpg>

<digital xo.jpg>

[ChrisF1]

Thanks for the info Mitch.

I see you've made a big jump up in subs from your previous model. I was "This Close" to also getting the F18's but after closer consideration I decided on the smaller E15HP2's only because they give me a few more placement options in my room. I only use them for music anyway.

I believe our Subs use the same XLR3 amps so I'm curious if you are using the XLR "LFE" Inputs in "DUAL" Mode on your setup? I called Rythmik the other day and was told if I use this Input it Bypasses all internal controls of the sub except for the VOL, Limiter, Extension stuff. Is this your understanding as well? I switched over to this Input from the "Normal" R/L Source Inputs after speaking to Rythmik and once I started playing with Audiolense. Is this the preferred connection approach IYO?

When I try to use a similar Speaker setup as you are I am unable to get the Channels to line-up where I need them in the X_Over Tab. I need:

0=Left Channel Main

1=Right Channel Main

2=Left Channel Sub

3=Right Channel Sub

If I attempt to ADD a speaker in the X_Over Tab it moves the R/L Mains as routed inside my Lynx Hilo to Left (0)/Left(1), Right(2)/Right(3). I see the "Override Channel Mapping" option in the Measurement Tab but that appears to not adjust the settings seen in the X_Over Tab...Hrrmmm

Thanks

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[ChrisF1]

Hello Mark,

Thanks for the info.

For some Odd reason when I change the LFE Cutoff Freq seen inside speaker setup and run a measurement I see no difference in any of the Charts generated afterwards. I started with 50hz and using no X-Over on any of the speakers fields. Ran a measurement, took a screenshot. Then went in and changed the LFE to 140hz and ran another measurement, took a screenshot and compared them. FWIW, I also tried other LFE values as well but in all cases the measured values seen on the chart follow the exact same path. I see no obvious drop off at or near any of the choosen LFE cut off Freqs. I'm baffled by this?

To that end, I am also not able to enter any values in the Low Pass fields. Each time I enter a value the number disapears but with that said, this is with using speaker type "SUB". Maybe I'll try to use Full Range for the Sub speaker type and see if that works. On the Mains speaker type I can indeed enter a Low Pass value in the fields.

I would still love to know how the Playback Format and Channel Routing Tab is supposed to work. The "1.00" values seen in those fields next to each speaker type makes no sense to me at all. I see nothing in the documentation either about how to use this Tab.

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[Mitch Barnett]

Chris,

 

I am using the line inputs – just lazy J

 

Yes, you have to use the “override channel mapping” in order to route the channels properly, as you can’t do that in the XO config. See attached.

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[ChrisF1]

Thanks Mitch,

I was able to finally get the X-Over Tab values to stick in the X-Over Tab. I had to keep adding additional speakers until one of them already had a Low Pass value applied to it. Then I could change the value to what I wanted and rename the speaker entry to something other than what it used by default (ie...from woofer to LCH-SUB). I did this in addition to enabling the Override in the Measurement Tab. I then changed the routing to what I needed.

Thanks

 

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[ChrisF1]

So now I've moved onto my next issue and why it appears that no matter what I set the LFE cut-off value to in Speaker setup OR any Low-Pass Sub related X-Over that my measurements never seem to reflect the config being used.

I suspect it has something to do with the way I have the Sub connected after speaking with Rythmik the other day. I was told that by changing to the LFE XLR Input on the back of the SUB it would disable pretty much all internal controls and thus let the correction software do all the heavy lifting in terms of X-Over, Delay..etc. But, since I changed to this new connection approach it appears that none of the Audiolense related LFE or Low Pass X-Over settings seem to be getting applied to the two SUB Channels. Below is a series of measurement sweeps using 5 different LFE cut and or SUB Low Pass X_Over configurations within Audiolense. You can see that the charts shape/curve never changes, even when going from an extreme 40hz to an opposite extreme 140hz setting.

It appears that the SUB is ignoring any of these settings and doing its own thing (ie..nothing in terms of X-Over roll-off). I've now gone back and re-wired the SUB the way it used to be but will have to test it tomorrow to see if I get visual confirmation of things working again as expected. Has anyone see this before or have an idea of what may be going on?

                                                                                                                                                     40hz

65hz

70hz

75hz

140hz

 

[mark specht]

 Chris,

I am using the LfE input as well. Maybe you can use my setup: 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Myqx4n1CdycbDd5VoHLLUFwq8LAlTg74/view?usp=drivesdk

Cheers

Mark

Am 21.07.2019 um 01:13 schrieb ChrisF1 <hifimo...@gmail.com>:

So now I've moved onto my next issue and why it appears that no matter what I set the LFE cut-off value to in Speaker setup OR any Low-Pass Sub related X-Over that my measurements never seem to reflect the config being used.

I suspect it has something to do with the way I have the Sub connected after speaking with Rythmik the other day. I was told that by changing to the LFE XLR Input on the back of the SUB it would disable pretty much all internal controls and thus let the correction software do all the heavy lifting in terms of X-Over, Delay..etc. But, since I changed to this new connection approach it appears that none of the Audiolense related LFE or Low Pass X-Over settings seem to be getting applied to the two SUB Channels. Below is a series of measurement sweeps using 5 different LFE cut and or SUB Low Pass X_Over configurations within Audiolense. You can see that the charts shape/curve never changes, even when going from an extreme 40hz to an opposite extreme 140hz setting.

It appears that the SUB is ignoring any of these settings and doing its own thing (ie..nothing in terms of X-Over roll-off). I've now gone back and re-wired the SUB the way it used to be but will have to test it tomorrow to see if I get visual confirmation of things working again as expected. Has anyone see this before or have an idea of what may be going on?

                                                                                                                                                     40hz

<Measurement_40hz_LP_SUBSOnly.PNG>

65hz

<Measurement_65hz_LP_SUBSOnly.PNG>

70hz

<Measurement_70hz_LP_SUBSOnly.PNG>

75hz

<Measurement_75hz_LP_SUBSOnly.PNG>

140hz

<Measurement_140hz_LP_SUBSOnly.PNG>

 

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<Measurement_40hz_LP_SUBSOnly.PNG>

<Measurement_65hz_LP_SUBSOnly.PNG>

<Measurement_70hz_LP_SUBSOnly.PNG>

<Measurement_75hz_LP_SUBSOnly.PNG>

<Measurement_140hz_LP_SUBSOnly.PNG>

[ChrisF1]

Hey Mark,

Google drive made me request access to the attachment. Not sure where that request goes but maybe you will see something in your inbox at some point.

I guess its safe to assume that since you are using the LFE Inputs on your Sub's then that should be fine for me to use as well.

I'm not sure what to think about why I get no results in the measurement window. Tomorrow I will break out REW to see what occurs in there. I know the built-in Analog X-Over provided on the Sub works fine in REW. This is my first attempt to use a software X-Over. I think you can make an X-Over in REW so will see what happens.

I just hope all this effort isn't because the "Temp" Audiolense LIC I was given after purchase isn't limited in some way related to Bass correction. I'll be pretty salty if it is given the two days I've spent thus far trying to get it to work. 

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[mark specht]

Chris,

did give you access - did that work?

Mark

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[Chris Forgione]

Hello Mark,

Thank you very much for the config file. I've altered my config to resemble your file and generated new corrections. Will give it a good listen and see how it goes.

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[ChrisF1]

Well embarrassingly enough I think I finally see whats going on in reference to my previous post on the X-OVER not appearing to work on the SUB channels. It took me awhile to realize that (and please correct me if I'm wrong) the results of the X-OVER Freq being used do not show themselves until AFTER the Correction is applied to the TARGET Curve.

I was initially expecting to see the X-OVER being applied during the measurement/sweep phase. I was also under the impression that the "LFE Cutoff" value seen in speaker setup was supposed to be the actual SUB X-OVER point to be applied during the measurement/sweep itself. All of these assumptions appear to be wrong and I just wish it didn't take me 3 days of banging my head against the wall to realize this.

Perhaps I'm the only idiot who thought this but with that said I think a better explanation in the documentation of what some of these other various buttons/fields do in the program that are not mentioned at all would be a nice addition for the newbies just dipping their toes into the waters here.

Anyway, I finally got things up and running and everything sounds pretty damn impressive even considering the very basic Target curve adjustments I've made thus far. I'm sure I'll be playing with that for months to come with an OCD like determination.

Thanks

[BerntR]

Yes, crossovers are added late in the process. And I generally recommend measurement sweeps with a generous margin towards the crossover frequencies as it allows for trying different crossovers without having to perform new measurements.

PS congrats on your progress. Well done.