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Dear Binh and Colleagues:
No need to feel frustrated and don't worry Binh, you are not rude. Maybe some clarification comments on my part are in order because I think you misunderstood my motivation and thus others probably also did. Grief comes not only to you but to all people. I too have watched family members suffer and die, including a lovely young daughter. You should also remember that criticism is a prerequisite to progress. Your government would also be more progressive if it would allow more open discussion.
First, I did not say and would never say that all Vietnamese people are rude in public, nor would I say that all Japanese, French or American people behave arrogantly and act superior to others, although many people among those nationalities do behave that way when they travel abroad. Next, I would say that just because I am a resident in Vietnam does not mean I have to adopt every prevalent custom. Nor do you have to adopt every practice of people who live in another country when you go there, especially if you perceive that custom to be harmful, rude or contrary to common sense.
Second, I will never try to cut in front of another person waiting in line because his/her time is equally valuable to mine. Next, I will never try to get onto a bus or an elevator before those who want to get off can first exit. It simply makes good sense to allow people to get off with their packages and bags and briefcases, to make more space. It is also more polite to wait, regardless of what most VN people do, which is (sorry, but true) try to get on without allowing people to exit first.
Next, I will not ride a motorbike on a sidewalk nor block the sidewalk by parking across it, nor will I ride through any bus stop, nor race around corners running in front of walkers in crosswalks and possibly running over their toes or worse, simply to beat the oncoming traffic. If there is a redlight signal at an intersection, I will not run through it when cross traffic is present, just because there is no policeman watching. I see that one big reason that HCMC has many unneccessary traffic jams is because many drivers try to push their way into an intersection, when the intersection is already full, regardless of the color of the traffic signal. Why not just wait half a minute for it to thin out a bit before moving into it?
Fourth, I will never adopt the practice of asking what I consider to be highly personal questions, either in America or in Vietnam. So, I will not ask an older person how old they are, nor how frequently a couple have sex, nor how much money they earn, (I don't even ask my brother this) nor what their religion is, nor whether they are Catholic, Buddhist, Communist, etc. (The sex question, which is fairly common in America - although maybe not the first time people meet - I don't answer either.) Nor will I answer such questions when Vietnamese people ask me questions that are rude to me. Rather, I will explain to them that highly personal questions are considered impolite in most foreign cultures and tell them which questions people do consider to be highly personal.
As a professional Business and ESL teacher, I understand that the main goal of VN students who ask questions of foreigners who speak English is to have conversation and practice with them, so I will go beyond just saying "You shouldn't do that." I will give them examples of a few questions that are quite acceptable to most foreigners, like: "When did you arrive here? How long will you stay? Where have you been? What have you seen? What is your favorite Vietnamese food? Is there anything you dislike about VN? What is most surprising to you? What have you enjoyed most about being here? Where do you come from? Where is your home country/city/state, etc? What do you do in your home country?" (Don't ask if they are retired.) And don't ask where they are staying or what hotel they are in. Many foreign people have been warned that some VN people are theives and will find any way to rob or steal, so they
will often be suspicious if you are too friendly at first.
Finally, for those of you who are young enough or naive enough to believe that harmful cultural practices cannot be changed, I will tell you that there was once a time in America when people would throw all sorts of litter along the sidewalks and highways (just as they now do in Vietnam) and dump all sorts of garbage, paints, oils and chemicals into the sewers, waterways, rivers and lakes. But, in the early 1960's, people began to realize that we were destroying our exquisitely beautiful land, just as you have been doing here. Lake Erie, one of the Great Lakes was brown and dead and stank. All the fish were gone and many rivers had no fish in them.
So, individuals, community groups and responsible corporations began volunteering to make a difference and change attitudes and habits. Even the governments (including the states and federal) supported tv, radio and outdoor advertising campaigns to "Clean up America." The results: within 10 years the highways and neighborhoods were free of trash and litter and people who threw away even a chewing gum wrapper on a public street or highway were censored by others or were even heavily fined if the police caught them. Within 20 years most rivers were running clear again and within 30 years, lake Erie was once again a pristine and beautiful lake, filled with great sport fish and edible fish. In fact, the "environmental movement" or "Green Revolution" began in the USA, in the early 1960's.
"America the Beautiful" is not just a song. You can go there and see for yourself. Vietnam could again become as beautiful as she once was. It is possible to change harmful social practices. In fact, it is necessary! You can do it in Vietnam, too. If change happens it will be largely a result of the work of Vietnam's teachers, including me and you.
Because I do love Vietnamese culture and the people here, I am often critical of some things that happen here. It is a custom of Americans to be critical of things they care about. If I did not love VN, I would not have married a beautiful VN woman and stayed here! I do know the history and cuture of Vietnam better than most of my students do. You have every reason to be proud of your country and your history. My comments are never intended to denigrate this country or its people, but only to provide a picture that comes from outside the forest you are in, so that you can see the beautiful trees in your forest more clearly.
In the end, I must disagree with your suggestion Binh, that I should confine myself to learning the ways of Vietnam, although I do continue to learn them. I think VN people should try and can also learn many valuable things from foreigners, especially if VN wants to play a prominent role on the international stage, as it is already beginning to do in ASEAN and the UN and in WTO. I think you misunderstood the motivation and purpose of my original comments, which is why I have added all the above information.
I hope I have given you all some food for thought and I hope we can all be successful in our papers that are due in such a short time, including myself. I am also having trouble writing the Asst. number 1 in 683. Good luck to everyone!
Brian Wayne Smith, J.D. (Valparaiso University, USA) International Programs Advisor, The Group of Asian International Education Dean, Dept of Business and Tourism Management, The Saigon International University
Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam Email: nats...@yahoo.com--- On Sun, 7/17/11, Nguyễn Thanh Bình <mr.tha...@gmail.com> wrote:
From: Nguyễn Thanh Bình <mr.tha...@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Vietnamese vs Japanese
To: sea...@googlegroups.com
Date: Sunday, July 17, 2011, 12:34 PM
Dear colleagues,
I myself felt quite frustrated when reading your messages about vietnamese people.
- First, in your messages, you always mentioned the word "Vietnamese people" which is a generalization while not all are like this. I'm a vietnamese so I understand that more than you know about my country, I think.
- Second, "sorry" means a lot in Vietnam because it's very difficult for a person to say "sorry". If they do say, they mean so.
- Third, I'm neither a communist nor anyone else but I love my country and I feel ok with my government. At least, the government could gain peace and can keep it until now. You would never know how terrible it was to see your family die one by one. I'm sorry to tell you this because my uncles and grandfather was in that situation. Though the government doesn't work well, at least we are Vietnamese we should find the way to promote this country in the practical way instead of criticizing by words.
- About Brian's concern of asking some questions for the first meeting, I think when you are in Vietnam do as the vietnamese do. It's a rule. when you go to my country you have to learn about my country. I'll do the same if I go to your country. The problem here is what you learn about my country, not what we learn to do with you in my country. It's no good to judge a culture based on your cultural principles.
- I admit some bad things like cutting the line or ... are not good at all but we are improving a lot. If you don't believe, just go to Big C supermarket to see what's happening.
- comparing Vietnam and Japan is unfair at all. After 2 wars, not mentioning the wars with the Chinese, we have been struggling to gain such achievements while after WW2, japan flew up with the supports from the U.S. We are more courageous and independent than them. Economy decides the development of education and living standard.
- If any of you would argue with me about the country or the government, just step out and talk with me about this. I will always tell my students to love the country and the government because we pay the peace and independence by blood and lives.
I don't want to sound rude but that's what i think.
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Nguyen Thanh Binh, Tien Giang, VietNam
Lecturer at HCMC University of Technology
HCMUT Foreign Language Center
Website: http://mrbinh.jimdo.com
[[""--THE PURPOSE OF LEARNING IS GROWTH, AND OUR MINDS, UNLIKE OUR BODIES, CAN CONTINUE GROWING AS WE CONTINUE TO LIVE.--""]]
---***---***---***---************************
Nguyen Thanh Binh, Tien Giang, VietNam
Lecturer at HCMC University of Technology
HCMUT Foreign Language Center
Website: http://mrbinh.jimdo.com
[[""--THE PURPOSE OF LEARNING IS GROWTH, AND OUR MINDS, UNLIKE OUR BODIES, CAN CONTINUE GROWING AS WE CONTINUE TO LIVE.--""]]
On 17 July 2011 21:30, Brian Smith <nats...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Dear Ng. Phuong:
I will answer your question about Vietnamese people vs. Japanese because I have some experience with both. I think VN people are definitely more friendly to foreigners and to their own VN neighbors, too. Japanese people are more outspoken about public issues but I think VN people would be that way too if they felt there would be no repercussions for expressing their opinion about government policies, official corruption or ineptitude.
Also, VN people do not generally view themselves as racially or culturally superior to other groups or to foreigners, whereas most Japanese people do, although they are courteous enough to keep their mouth shut and keep that opinion to themselves. Of course, their horrible conduct toward the civilian populations in Vietnam, to the the Koreans, Malays, and especially toward the Chinese people during WW2 was based on that arrogant confidence in their own cultural superiority. But in some ways Japanese people are individually far more respectful and polite than VN.
Japanese will not cut in front of you in the market or in a government office, nor will they try to get into the lift or on the bus before you can get out. Frequently, I actually have to shove VN people out of my way, who were trying to get on the elevator or on the bus and preventing me from getting off. Motorbikes are a special case. Vietnamese people take their brains out of their heads and leave them at home when they get on a motorbike. Usually, Japanese people in motor vehicles come to a complete stop for anyone in a crosswalk, even if they would have time to run through ahead of the walker.
Vietnamese run their damnable motorbikes through bus stops and up onto sidewalks, running into people who aren't fast enough to get out of their way or don't see them, including my 4 year old daughter, who was recently hit by a motorbike getting off at a bus stop. They will get on their motorbikes and back away from stores on the sidewalks without ever looking behind them for old people or children who don't jump very fast. No one on a motorbike would ever consider stopping or even slowing down for a person in a crosswalk, although they will try to swerve to avoid the walker. But the walker is viewed merely as an obstacle, no different from a paper box, a dog or a cat or a rat. They will roar out of apartment buildings right across the sidewalk as fast as they can, without looking or slowing down and hit you if you don't watch out for them and be ready to jump out of the way in an instant. About 15% of motorbikes run around at night without any
lights on, making it very hard for others to see them.
Because of al;l the above experiences, my opinion is that in public VN people are often very rude, although in private that same person may be very polite to everyone, even me. And (sometimes) they will say "sorry" when they do hit me (many times) on motorbikes. But their "sorry" means nothing because they will not change their behavior. All VN people perceive themselves to be a very gracious and polite people but in truth they are often quite rude to others when they are in public. All foreigners notice this and talk about it, even the Japanese notice it.
One time a young lady ran into me as I was going with the green light in a crosswalk and she ran through the red. She tore my pants, cut a gash in my leg and knocked me down, then tried to ride off before I could get up. No one stopped to help me and everyone whizzed past me as if I were a wounded dog. But I quickly caught her jeans and pulled her off the motorbike, sending the infernal machine slithering down the street. I was thinking she was a man, because she had dark faceplate and helmet on and shoes that didn't look like a woman's. Then she was more worried about her motorbike getting hurt than she was about the person she just knocked down with blood running down his leg. Although her English was good, she not only declined to apologize, but threatened to call the police on me for "attacking" her. I decided to let her go and to limp along on my way, so she then followed me to my place of work where I was headed and told a whopping lie to my
manager about what happened, thus trying to get me fired.
There are actually many similarities that I see between American Culture and VN. People work hard. Most people are honest and love their weekends and holidays with family. They love to eat meals together and tell stories and jokes. They make the best of friends and I have many good Vietnamese friends. But there are also some glaring differences between Western culture, even Singapore culture and VN. For example, the first time you meet a VN person - if they are ignorant of Western culture (which is 95% of the time) - they are likely to ask: How old are you? (Often the very first question) How much do you earn? Are you married? (Or, do you have a girlfriend?) What is your religion? How many children do you have? Where do you work? Do you have a car? How much do you pay in taxes? All of these are common questions for VN people to ask each other and I realize they are just trying to carry on a conversation. But they
should consider learning something about foreign cultures, instead of just expecting foreigners to adapt to the ways of VN.
All of the above questions are considered impolite by Western standards, especially the first time you meet someone. And the first three are considered extremely rude in most cultures, especially to ask a person older than yourself their age is very disrespectful. If people were asked these questions in their own countries, even in Singapore, they would just get up and walk away from you. If a young man were to ask an older woman her age, she would even be likely to slap him in the mouth before she walked away.
You all need to teach these things to your students. Many of my university students have asked me all these questions frequently. So, I explain to them that these questions are considered rude in many places outside of Vietnam. I tell them it would be about like me asking your parents how often they have sexual relations the first time you introduced me to them. They are shocked. I tell them older foreigners are equally shocked when you ask their age the first time you speak to them. If students try to use these kinds of personal questions to make conversation with a foreigner in a first business encounter, then they will lose that person and his company as a customers, because the potential customer will consider them culturally ignorant or insensitive or rude or all three.
VN people need to learn more than English to join the world community. They need to be a bit more like the Japanese and learn to keep their mouth shut when they are ignorant about something. As you can see from the above, I do not consider the majority of Vietnamese people to be as polite as they generally perceive themselves to be. I see that many VN people have little consideration for anyone who is outside of their own family or their own social circle.
I apologize if I have offended anyone by my comments, but sometimes it is good to listen to an opinion from someone outside of your own culture. However, I am also sure that all of my classmates take their brains with them when they get onto their motorbikes.
Brian Wayne Smith, J.D. (Valparaiso University, USA) International Programs Advisor, The Group of Asian International Education Dean, Dept of Business and Tourism Management, The Saigon International University
Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam Email: nats...@yahoo.com--- On Sat, 7/16/11, Nguyen Phuong <4no...@gmail.com> wrote:
From: Nguyen Phuong <4no...@gmail.com>
Subject: Vietnamese vs Japanese
To: sea...@googlegroups.com
Date: Saturday, July 16, 2011, 2:25 PM
Hi, do you think that Vietnamese people have different kind of sharing opinion, sorrow and feeling than Japanese people?
P.
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