categories and tagging

1 view
Skip to first unread message
Message has been deleted

Henry Story

unread,
Nov 1, 2006, 10:22:44 AM11/1/06
to atom-protocol Protocol, atom...@googlegroups.com
I have just written up a little overview of how folskonomies,
ontologies, tagging and atom fit together [1]. One point I make is
that often one can concatenate the scheme + "/" + term to get the url
of the category at which one can retrieve all the entries that belong
to the category. This works with Tim Brays feed, and it is the
behavior of del.icio.us too. I suppose that because the scheme is not
necessarily a URL this won't work in every case.

Would it not have been nice if we could have had a system whereby
scheme+term gives us a URI with which we can then identify the
category itself? What do people do now? Is it useful to assume that
this is the case when writing a client?


Henry

[1] http://blogs.sun.com/bblfish/entry/
folksonomies_ontologies_atom_and_the


Home page: http://bblfish.net/
Sun Blog: http://blogs.sun.com/bblfish/
Foaf name: http://bblfish.net/people/henry/card#me

Elias Torres

unread,
Nov 1, 2006, 10:27:27 AM11/1/06
to atom...@googlegroups.com, atom-protocol Protocol

James M Snell

unread,
Nov 1, 2006, 10:53:49 AM11/1/06
to Henry Story, atom-protocol Protocol, atom...@googlegroups.com
It's useful in many cases but definitely not in all. Feed consumers
should not assume that this pattern is being used.

- James

Henry Story wrote:
> [snip]

Henry Story

unread,
Nov 1, 2006, 11:22:52 AM11/1/06
to atom...@googlegroups.com, atom-protocol Protocol
On 1 Nov 2006, at 16:53, James M Snell wrote:
> It's useful in many cases but definitely not in all. Feed consumers
> should not assume that this pattern is being used.

There seems to definitively be an expectation by a lot of feed
producers (including Tim Bray) that this is how it should work,
otherwise why bother having categories that line up so nicely with
urls that point to documents containing representations of all the
entries from that category?

Would it be good to have some kind of best practices manual that
would tie in these loose ends?

What would be the best way to tie this one up for a client? Should he
do the following on first seeing a new category:

if ( category.scheme() instanceof URL) {
Request call = new Request(Method.HEAD, category.scheme());
Client client = new Client(Protocol.HTTP);
Response response = client.handle(call);

if (response.getStatus().getCode() == 200) try {
//what is the best way to search for this id?
URL catid = new URL(category.scheme(),category.term());
category.setId(catid);
} catch (MalformedURLException e) { }
}


Perhaps he should then do a HEAD on catid too and see if there is
something there. If so, he could make the category display as a
hyperlink in the UI?

Does this seem like a good idea? Anyone else tried this?

James M Snell

unread,
Nov 1, 2006, 11:43:53 AM11/1/06
to Henry Story, atom...@googlegroups.com, atom-protocol Protocol
Assuming that scheme and term can or even may be concatenated into a URI
can have some detrimental effects when doing so was not the intention of
the publisher. Case in point, for IBM's activities work, our schemes
initially used http: URI's in the ibm.com domain. The idea was that the
scheme would eventually point to a resource describing the scheme and
the product. However, we quickly discovered that some clients were
combining the scheme and term and attempting to dereference the URI,
causing the folks who run ibm.com a lot of grief because of a whole
bunch of 404 errors that were suddenly showing up in their logs. Now,
this is easily preventable, of course, and was quickly addressed, but
the point remains: unless the publisher of the feed intends the scheme
and term to be combined to produce something useful, consumers should
not assume they can do so.

That said, since that early initial experience, I've been recommending
that folks not use http uri's for category schemes if they do not intend
for folks to dereference them.

Houghton,Andrew

unread,
Nov 1, 2006, 12:24:33 PM11/1/06
to atom-protocol Protocol

> From: owner-ato...@mail.imc.org
> [mailto:owner-ato...@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of Henry Story
> Sent: 01 November, 2006 11:23
> To: atom...@googlegroups.com
> Cc: atom-protocol Protocol
> Subject: Re: categories and tagging

>
>
> On 1 Nov 2006, at 16:53, James M Snell wrote:
>> It's useful in many cases but definitely not in all. Feed
> consumers
>> should not assume that this pattern is being used.
>
> There seems to definitively be an expectation by a lot of
> feed producers (including Tim Bray) that this is how it
> should work, otherwise why bother having categories that line
> up so nicely with urls that point to documents containing
> representations of all the entries from that category?
>
> Would it be good to have some kind of best practices manual
> that would tie in these loose ends?

The problem with this strategy is that you cause problems for
controlled vocabularies that don't use this approach. There
are many in the library and other communities that have issues
with both RSS 2.0 and Atom's specification of categories.

One area that is problematic is how to specify concepts in
controlled vocabularies that are encoded using the emerging
W3C SKOS specification. SKOS is an RDF application. As such
it is URI focused. The SKOS community would like to specify
these concepts in RSS 2.0 and Atom, but there are issues.

In RSS 2.0 the specification allows for a domain attribute,
similar in Atom, and the categories term, but the category
term is suppose to be a slash delimited value. That causes
problems for a number of controlled vocabularies where slash
is a valid character in the concepts label and RSS 2.0
provides no way to escape a slash.

Atom has followed a similar strategy minus the slash delimited
content nonsense, I think. However, it still presents problems
for using controlled vocabularies encoded in SKOS. The issue
is the separation of the URI and category/concepts label. In
a folksonomy you might do the following:

domain = URI
category = cats

However, in SKOS you have a URI to the concept "cats", period.
You could map the domain to be the SKOS concept scheme's URI
and use the concepts label as the category content in Atom. But
concatenating the SKOS concept scheme URI and the concept label
doesn't necessarily produce the URI to the concept. For example,
in SKOS you might have the following:

concept scheme URI: http://my.categories.net/
concept URI for cats: http://my.categories.net/13745
concept label for cats: cats

The reason for doing this has to do with the fact that labels
*can* be specified in multiple languages where as the URI for
the concept is a constant that doesn't changed based upon the
language. Thus if you were to do what you are proposing you
just prevented the SKOS community from using SKOS concepts in
Atom.

Unfortunately Atom doesn't permit just specifying a URI to a
concept. So using controlled vocabularies encoded in SKOS is
still an issue with Atom. Using the cats example, one would
have to do the following:

domain: http://my.categories.net/
category: cats

That seems like a reasonable mapping between SKOS's specification
of the concept cats and Atom specification of a category. But it
isn't, because I just choose the English label for cats someone
else could have chosen the Spanish or French label for cats and
an aggregator will probably think the two Atom categories are
different.

You could say, well the aggregator could determine from the SKOS
encoding that the English, Spanish and French labels were the
same and map them to the same bucket. However, there is no way
in Atom to specify that the URI is associated with a SKOS encoding.

In addition, controlled vocabularies sometimes deprecate the
preferred term. So cats might become feline or worst the concept
might split and have references to two different preferred labels.

So the current situation for specifying categories in both RSS 2.0
and Atom is problematic, please don't make it worst.


Andy.

Henry Story

unread,
Nov 1, 2006, 1:01:02 PM11/1/06
to atom...@googlegroups.com, atom-protocol Protocol
On 1 Nov 2006, at 18:24, Houghton,Andrew wrote:
> However, in SKOS you have a URI to the concept "cats", period.
> You could map the domain to be the SKOS concept scheme's URI
> and use the concepts label as the category content in Atom. But
> concatenating the SKOS concept scheme URI and the concept label
> doesn't necessarily produce the URI to the concept. For example,
> in SKOS you might have the following:
>
> concept scheme URI: http://my.categories.net/
> concept URI for cats: http://my.categories.net/13745
> concept label for cats: cats

Ok so in AtomOwl, following my proposal [1] we could would interpret
the following atom

<category scheme='http://my.categories.net/'
term='13745'
label='cats'/>

Like so

@prefix : <http://bblfish.net/work/atom-owl/2006-06-06/#> .

_:C a :Category;
:term "13745";
:label "cats"@en;
:scheme <http://my.categories.net/> .

assuming the xsd:lang were set to 'en' somewhere (mhh it does not
look like label is language sensitive in atom).

Then after doing a HEAD on http://my.categories.net/13745 and
receiving a 200 response code,
the agent could deduce that

_:C owl:sameAs <http://my.categories.net/13745> .

and we would end up with the smushed graph

<http://my.categories.net/13745> a :Category;
:term "13745";
:label "cats"@en;
:scheme <http://my.categories.net/> .


Given the label the user agent would then display a hyperlinkeable
"cats" pointing to
http://my.categories.net/13745 .

Sound like what you are looking for, no?

Henry

[1] http://blogs.sun.com/bblfish/entry/
folksonomies_ontologies_atom_and_the

Home page: http://bblfish.net/

Houghton,Andrew

unread,
Nov 1, 2006, 2:11:52 PM11/1/06
to atom-protocol Protocol

> From: owner-ato...@mail.imc.org
> [mailto:owner-ato...@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of Henry Story
> Sent: 01 November, 2006 13:01

> To: atom...@googlegroups.com
> Cc: atom-protocol Protocol
> Subject: Re: categories and tagging
>
> Ok so in AtomOwl, following my proposal [1] we could would
> interpret the following atom
>
> <category scheme='http://my.categories.net/'
> term='13745'
> label='cats'/>
>

The problem is that "13745" isn't the "term", but most likely it is
the concept's internal identifier in the controlled vocabulary. So
while you can smush that part of the URI into the term attribute,
it is not quite the same. Another problem is that you can have
different URI's for a SKOS concept scheme and a concept. This is
perfectly valid:

concept scheme URI: http://my.scheme.net/my-vocabulary/
concept URI: http://my.concept.net/my-vocabulary/13745

Assuming that my.scheme.net is a registry for vocabularies and
my.concept.net is a repository for concepts.

Under your proposal you are making assumptions about the structure
of a URI, which is something you are not suppose to do. Also,
SKOS is URI based, which means you can use any URI scheme other
that HTTP which may have different construction rules than just
combining the scheme and term attributes with a slash and doing
an HTTP GET on the result. As a matter of fact, the URI might
not even be resolvable.


Andy.

Henry Story

unread,
Nov 2, 2006, 5:34:59 AM11/2/06
to Atom-Protocol, atom...@googlegroups.com, Atom-Syntax
On 2 Nov 2006, at 08:59, Thomas Broyer wrote:
> [redirecting to atom-syntax]

This is also a protocol issue, because we are asking what to do with
the information in the atom feed. [1]

> 2006/11/1, Houghton,Andrew:

> <category
> scheme="http://my.scheme.net/my-vocabulary/"
> term="http://my.concept.net/my-vocabulary/13745"
> label="cats"
> />

Thomas, I don't think that this is a natural reading of "term" in the
atom syntax list.

[[
The "term" attribute is a string that identifies the category to
which the entry or feed belongs. Category elements MUST have a "term"
attribute.
]]

nowhere is there mentioned a IRI there, whereas just below

[[
The "scheme" attribute is an IRI that identifies a categorization
scheme. Category elements MAY have a "scheme" attribute.
]] [2]

The scheme attribute is defined in terms of an IRI .

To give a bit more context to what Andrew was saying, he was arguing
that for a mapping between the SKOS [3] vocabulary and the atom
vocabulary. SKOS is indeed very interesting. It allows one to say
something like


<http://my.concept.net/my-vocabulary/13745> a skos:Concept;
skos:inScheme <http://my.scheme.net/my-vocabulary/>;
skos:prefLabel "cats" .

and much more.

The question remains as to how this can be well mapped to atom.

If I take one of Tim Bray's examples

<category scheme='http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/What/'
term='Places' />

I can translate this to the AtomOwl ontology [4]

[] a :Category;
:scheme <http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/What/>;
:term "Places" .

Practically, this seems to mean that one can get all the nice info
about Places at the url

<http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/What/Places>

And this seems to be becoming quite a common way people are setting
things up, and also it has some continuity with what the RSS2 folks
were doing.

[[
<category> is an optional sub-element of <item>.

It has one optional attribute, domain, a string that identifies a
categorization taxonomy.

The value of the element is a forward-slash-separated string that
identifies a hierarchic location in the indicated taxonomy.
Processors may establish conventions for the interpretation of
categories. Two examples are provided below:
]] [5]

It follows that what we have is something that can be expressed in
RDF by saying that the
:scheme and the :term relation form a CIFP [8], ie: together they
uniquely identify one thing, and furthermore that the identity of the
thing is given by the concatenation of those two strings.

This seems therefore to capture behavior that is not present in skos,
but apart from that the two should be quite complimentary. Let us see
how we can make them more so.

What we need perhaps is some way to make clear what the url of the
category is.
We could do this as follows:

1. add a new attribute to identify the category (lets call it catid)
2. Assume that if a catid is not present, and we have scheme and
a term attribute, that the catid is formed by the concatenation of
the scheme+term

we could then write out

<http://my.concept.net/my-vocabulary/13745> a skos:Concept;
skos:inScheme <http://my.scheme.net/my-vocabulary/>;
skos:prefLabel "cats" .

like this

<category catid="http://my.concept.net/my-vocabulary/13745"
scheme="http://my.scheme.net/my-vocabulary/"
term='cats' />


Now because the "term" is mandatory in atom (and not the scheme), I
suggest that one use the skos:prefLabel for it. I know there is a
label too, but well, it certainly makes it easier to search for
similar categories using the SPARQL type queries I put forward in [1].

Henry


>
> --
> Thomas Broyer


[1] for the atom-syntax people who may not have been following this
thread then, see
http://blogs.sun.com/bblfish/entry/
folksonomies_ontologies_atom_and_the
[2] http://www.atompub.org/rfc4287.html#element.category
[3] http://www.w3.org/TR/swbp-skos-core-guide/
(though I would suggest rewriting the rules using N3, rather
than the Jena language)
[4] https://sommer.dev.java.net/atom/
[5] http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/tech/
rss#ltcategorygtSubelementOfLtitemgt
[6] http://esw.w3.org/topic/CIFP

Jan Algermissen

unread,
Nov 2, 2006, 3:40:38 AM11/2/06
to Henry Story, atom-protocol Protocol, atom...@googlegroups.com

On Nov 1, 2006, at 4:22 PM, Henry Story wrote:

> Would it not have been nice if we could have had a system whereby
> scheme+term gives us a URI with which we can then identify the
> category itself? What do people do now? Is it useful to assume that
> this is the case when writing a client?

This is propably best communicated to the client as a collection
feature, or?

Jan

Thomas Broyer

unread,
Nov 2, 2006, 6:19:04 AM11/2/06
to Atom-Protocol, atom...@googlegroups.com, Atom-Syntax
2006/11/2, Henry Story:

>
> On 2 Nov 2006, at 08:59, Thomas Broyer wrote:
> > [redirecting to atom-syntax]
>
> This is also a protocol issue, because we are asking what to do with
> the information in the atom feed. [1]

Not sure how atom-protocol is concerned but let's keep it in
atom-protocol too...

> > 2006/11/1, Houghton,Andrew:
> >>
> >> concept scheme URI: http://my.scheme.net/my-vocabulary/
> >> concept URI: http://my.concept.net/my-vocabulary/13745
> > <category
> > scheme="http://my.scheme.net/my-vocabulary/"
> > term="http://my.concept.net/my-vocabulary/13745"
> > label="cats"
> > />
>
> Thomas, I don't think that this is a natural reading of "term" in the
> atom syntax list.

Andrew Houghton was talking about SKOS (which I don't know anything
about) and said:
[[


However, in SKOS you have a URI to the concept "cats", period.
You could map the domain to be the SKOS concept scheme's URI
and use the concepts label as the category content in Atom. But
concatenating the SKOS concept scheme URI and the concept label
doesn't necessarily produce the URI to the concept. For example,
in SKOS you might have the following:

concept scheme URI: http://my.categories.net/
concept URI for cats: http://my.categories.net/13745
concept label for cats: cats

]]

My answer is a bare mapping of this description into an atom:category element.

> [[
> The "term" attribute is a string that identifies the category to
> which the entry or feed belongs. Category elements MUST have a "term"
> attribute.
> ]]
>
> nowhere is there mentioned a IRI there,

IRIs are not forbidden either, and Andrew's description makes me think
the "concept URI" *is* the "term".

--
Thomas Broyer

Henry Story

unread,
Nov 2, 2006, 7:19:54 AM11/2/06
to atom...@googlegroups.com, Atom-Protocol, Atom-Syntax
On 2 Nov 2006, at 12:19, Thomas Broyer wrote:
>
>> [[
>> The "term" attribute is a string that identifies the category to
>> which the entry or feed belongs. Category elements MUST have a "term"
>> attribute.
>> ]]
>>
>> nowhere is there mentioned a IRI there,
>
> IRIs are not forbidden either, and Andrew's description makes me think
> the "concept URI" *is* the "term".

The question is: how does this help any of us? It may look like it is
a "term", but what is a client meant to do with all this information?

So if Tim Bray uses

<category scheme='http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/What/'
term='Places' />

Then what am I meant to do with this info? Since scheme is a URL I
can presumably go there to find something. But what?

Term is not defined to be a URI, and in the above example it is not,
and so why should I do anything with the term below?


What I am proposing is that we put forward some best practice to
formalize a useful and RESTful way to publish this information, so
that clients can use it. With APP we could do something like this: we
could define for example that when entries are published and they
contain categories that have a scheme that is accepted by the
collection, then the entry will be found in the feed that is to be
found either by appending scheme+term or in the catid location I
mentioned previously.

So if Tim Bray posts an entry containing

<entry>
...


<category scheme='http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/What/'
term='Places' />

</entry>

and his collection manages the <http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/What/>
scheme, as defined perhaps in the service document, (and perhaps we
can place the list of available categories at that scheme location!)
then his client will know that the entry will also be found in the
<http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/What/Places> collection.

Now this would be useful for an APP publishing client, and it would
be useful for an APP reader, because it could find some useful
information at these various locations, and it would save us having
to define an unending number of link relations that parallel the
categories we have, when it is in fact clear that everybody intends
to use scheme+term as a uri.

Henry


Thomas Broyer

unread,
Nov 2, 2006, 8:33:05 AM11/2/06
to atom...@googlegroups.com, Atom-Protocol, Atom-Syntax
2006/11/2, Henry Story:

>
> On 2 Nov 2006, at 12:19, Thomas Broyer wrote:
> >
> >> [[
> >> The "term" attribute is a string that identifies the category to
> >> which the entry or feed belongs. Category elements MUST have a "term"
> >> attribute.
> >> ]]
> >>
> >> nowhere is there mentioned a IRI there,
> >
> > IRIs are not forbidden either, and Andrew's description makes me think
> > the "concept URI" *is* the "term".
>
> The question is: how does this help any of us? It may look like it is
> a "term", but what is a client meant to do with all this information?

Nothing.
A client is not meant to do anything with atom:category elements other
than for categorizing the entry or feed.

> So if Tim Bray uses
>
> <category scheme='http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/What/'
> term='Places' />
>
> Then what am I meant to do with this info?

You can tell the reader that the entry is in the "Places" category,
you can provide a "show other entries within this category" feature,
you can group entries by their category (in a treeview: root nodes are
the list of schemes, their child nodes are the list of terms,
presented using the provided @label; if there are different @label
used, you can default to the latest and provide a tooltip or other
contextual info such as "a.k.a. Locations, Where"), etc.

> Since scheme is a URL I can presumably go there to find something. But what?

Some people also want to dereference XML Namespaces' URIs.

> Term is not defined to be a URI, and in the above example it is not,
> and so why should I do anything with the term below?
>
> <category
> scheme="http://my.scheme.net/my-vocabulary/"
> term="http://my.concept.net/my-vocabulary/13745"
> label="cats"
> />

There's no reason you would do anything with it either.

> What I am proposing is that we put forward some best practice to
> formalize a useful and RESTful way to publish this information, so
> that clients can use it. With APP we could do something like this: we
> could define for example that when entries are published and they
> contain categories that have a scheme that is accepted by the
> collection, then the entry will be found in the feed that is to be
> found either by appending scheme+term or in the catid location I
> mentioned previously.

-1
But you can still do it yourself in your own implementation,
eventually with the use of an f:feature to communicate the feature to
clients.

> So if Tim Bray posts an entry containing
>
> <entry>
> ...
> <category scheme='http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/What/'
> term='Places' />
> </entry>
>
> and his collection manages the <http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/What/>
> scheme, as defined perhaps in the service document, (and perhaps we
> can place the list of available categories at that scheme location!)
> then his client will know that the entry will also be found in the
> <http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/What/Places> collection.

I don't see how this is useful, but you might have good reasons.

> Now this would be useful for an APP publishing client, and it would
> be useful for an APP reader, because it could find some useful
> information at these various locations,

I understand the need to provide a "category URI" in some scenarios
but that should be an extension to the atom:category element or a
"mapping mechanism" communicated by a feed-level or entry-level
extension, but please no "global assumption".

> and it would save us having
> to define an unending number of link relations that parallel the
> categories we have, when it is in fact clear that everybody intends
> to use scheme+term as a uri.

Do you mean scheme+term, scheme+"/"+term or scheme+"#"+term?
or maybe scheme+"/"+term+".atom"? or scheme+"/tags/"+term?

--
Thomas Broyer

Houghton,Andrew

unread,
Nov 2, 2006, 8:39:07 AM11/2/06
to Atom-Protocol, atom...@googlegroups.com, Atom-Syntax
> From: owner-ato...@mail.imc.org
> [mailto:owner-ato...@mail.imc.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Broyer
> Sent: 02 November, 2006 06:19
> To: Atom-Protocol; atom...@googlegroups.com; Atom-Syntax
> Subject: Re: categories and tagging
>
>
> 2006/11/2, Henry Story:
> >
> > On 2 Nov 2006, at 08:59, Thomas Broyer wrote:
> > > [redirecting to atom-syntax]
> >
> > This is also a protocol issue, because we are asking what
> to do with
> > the information in the atom feed. [1]
>
> Not sure how atom-protocol is concerned but let's keep it in
> atom-protocol too...

It is both a feed issue and a protocol issue because of section 7 in
the APP draft. The APP draft puts forth category documents where I
think there are three concerns: 1) the specification of the category
element (overlap issue), 2) how could SKOS be used as a possible
alternative to category documents, 3) scalability issues with the
specification of category documents.

1) Because category documents reuse the Atom syntax for the category
element, this becomes an overlap issue between Atom syntax and Atom
protocol.

2) It would be an ideal convergence between Atom and SKOS to be able
to use APP to CRUD (Create, Read, Update, Delete) SKOS concept schemes
and concepts in an APP server. Or for that matter, other controlled
vocabulary XML grammars such as MARC-XML and Zthes. Providing a
generalized solution would plug multiple communities into APP.

3) The current specification of the category document doesn't scale
since it appears to me that this is one document in the APP server.
Lets just say you are dealing with a folksonomy of tags from say
Flickr. There may be several thousand categories, if not several
hundred thousand. It is doubtful that an APP server could return
such a document without HTTP timing out the request. For controlled
vocabularies such as LCSH and MeSH there are about 300,000 and 500,000
categories respectively. Just create a simple category document and
copy and paste a single category element 500,000 times and look at the
size of the category document. It is just not going to be returned
by any HTTP server.

As a side note, it seems to me that APP could be used to access and
maintain controlled vocabularies in SKOS, MARC-XML, Zthes, etc.
Basically APP provides collections of resources. There is a direct
analogy in SKOS where a controlled vocabulary in SKOS contains a
collection of skos:Concept resources.

If I understand these concepts correctly, then each skos:Concept
could be stored within an app:collection. The same would be true
for each skos:ConceptScheme associated with a controlled vocabulary.
The app:collection for both skos:Concept and skos:ConceptScheme
would comprise an app:workspace. There could be multiple
app:collection containing skos:Concept in an app:workspace.

To draw an analogy to the DDC (Dewey Decimal Classification, another
controlled vocabulary), each app:collection containing skos:Concept
would represent the concepts found in a single edition of the DDC.
Each app:workspace represents a complete controlled vocabulary. This
means that a single APP server, app:service, could access and maintain
multiple controlled vocabularies. Given this mapping, it seems to me
that APP could replace the SKOS API and may be a better alternative to
library centric protocols such as ADL Thesaurus protocol, OpenURL, SRU
and SRU Record Update.

The current Atom category element is just another instance of an item
in an app:collection. Thus a category document could be used to point
to the individual concepts in an app:collection rather than embedding
the category elements inside the category document. Using this approach
any XML grammar, Atom, MARC-XML, SKOS, Zthes, etc., could be used.

> > > 2006/11/1, Houghton,Andrew:
> > >>
> > >> concept scheme URI: http://my.scheme.net/my-vocabulary/
> > >> concept URI: http://my.concept.net/my-vocabulary/13745
> > > <category
> > > scheme="http://my.scheme.net/my-vocabulary/"
> > > term="http://my.concept.net/my-vocabulary/13745"
> > > label="cats"
> > > />
> >
> > Thomas, I don't think that this is a natural reading of
> "term" in the
> > atom syntax list.

I agree that this is not natural since term is not specified as a URI,
per my reading of the draft, and gets back to my point that you can
smush stuff in these attributes, but that may not be the smartest thing
to do in the long term.


BTW, generally I prefer not to cross post, this discussion is now
spread across three lists... please confine the discussion to the
Atom protocol list so people can get the complete thread rather than
bits and pieces.


Thanks, Andy.

Henry Story

unread,
Nov 2, 2006, 8:50:05 AM11/2/06
to atom...@googlegroups.com, Atom-Protocol Protocol
Sticking to AtomOwl and AtomProtocol.

On 2 Nov 2006, at 14:33, Thomas Broyer wrote:
>> So if Tim Bray posts an entry containing
>>
>> <entry>
>> ...
>> <category scheme='http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/What/'
>> term='Places' />
>> </entry>
>>
>> and his collection manages the <http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/What/>
>> scheme, as defined perhaps in the service document, (and perhaps we
>> can place the list of available categories at that scheme location!)
>> then his client will know that the entry will also be found in the
>> <http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/What/Places> collection.
>
> I don't see how this is useful, but you might have good reasons.

Well for one one could use APP as a default way to post things to
flickr, del.icio.us, and other tagging sites. The more people can use
APP the better, no?

Henry

Henry Story

unread,
Nov 2, 2006, 9:50:29 AM11/2/06
to atom...@googlegroups.com, Atom-Protocol, Atom-Syntax
On 2 Nov 2006, at 14:33, Thomas Broyer wrote:
> 2006/11/2, Henry Story:

>> Since scheme is a URL I can presumably go there to find something.
>> But what?
>
> Some people also want to dereference XML Namespaces' URIs.

It works for the Atom namespace: http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom
You get a nice page that points you to the spec.

It works for all the AtomOwl terms, I used.

@prefix : <http://bblfish.net/work/atom-owl/2006-06-06/#> .

_:C a :Category;
:term "13745";
:label "cats"@en;
:scheme <http://my.categories.net/> .

Each one of them is a URL and can be dereferenced, to find their
meaning.

I find it odd, that a someone speaking from a group that prides
itself on being RESTfull, does not want to get the added advantage
that URLs provide. Especially in APP where we are concentrating so
much on the HTTP protocol.

Yes. The information we have currently is useful. But if we get
people to organise their web sites the way Tim Bray has, then we
could write clients that use this information in much more
interesting ways. And we would not need an extension for every
obviously good way of doing things.

Henry

A. Pagaltzis

unread,
Nov 3, 2006, 1:10:22 AM11/3/06
to Atom Publishing Protocol, Atom Syntax

* Henry Story <henry...@bblfish.net> [2006-11-02 16:55]:

> The question is: how does this help any of us? It may look like
> it is a "term", but what is a client meant to do with all this
> information?

Simple: when the scheme and term of two different entries are
identical, then you have confidence that they refer to the same
concept. When the scheme URI is absent, the term is ambiguous.

That’s what scheme and term mean, and that’s all that they mean.

If you want to use a dereferencable protocol scheme for your
category’s scheme URI, and want to run a service providing
resources at the given URI, that’s fine, and more power to you.
But nothing like that is mandated, much less is any approach for
deriving a dereferencable URI for a single term.

Regards,
--
Aristotle Pagaltzis // <http://plasmasturm.org/>

A. Pagaltzis

unread,
Nov 3, 2006, 1:12:17 AM11/3/06
to atom-protocol Protocol

* Jan Algermissen <algermi...@mac.com> [2006-11-02 16:55]:

+1

Reply all
Reply to author
Forward
0 new messages