PHP and ASP - how similar
rick0763
competence with it to land a programming job. Although I once saw PHP
mentioned in the majority of job postings I now see ASP or .NET
requested far more than PHP. I've looked at just a little ASP code,
and it appears nearly identical to PHP. I've heard that this is
actually true, but would like confirmation of that from someone that
knows both. If someone had a reasonable handle on PHP would they have
a high probability of being able to work with ASP or .NET code without
additional education/training?
Nic
Congratulations on your efforts to lean a programming language. The extent of my experience with Microsoft products is a little of VB several years ago, so I'm likely not an authority in the matter. Whichever language you decide to work with I'm sure you'll find it a rewarding experience. I'm partial to PHP when it comes to the web, and I can assure you that there's enough work.
Nic
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7263255
In my opinion, there's quite a bit of difference between the two
languages. That being said, the fundamentals of how the web works are
the same regardless of what language you use so switching between them
does not mean starting over.
As to the job market... I think that PHP is more likely to be deployed
in cases where the management doesn't know what technology to use.
You'll see those positions advertised as "web developer" instead of
"ASP Programmer." PHP does not have the huge marketing budget that
Microsoft gives to ASP.NET, so recruiters and HR people are not as
familiar with it.
All that being said, I was surprised at the difference between a
".asp" and ".php" query in Google. .asp returned 1.9 billion pages
(1.2 billion for .aspx), PHP returned 5.9 billion pages. So, that's a
wet-finger indication of the marketplace potential.
-Randall
Pavan Raj
I would recommend gaining expertise in one or the other first, before trying to be "cross-platform". I don't think it is easy to switch between programming in PHP and .Net without having used both for a significant length of time. It is definitely more than "just syntax". It tends to be a huge shift in mindset each time you switch. It used to be easier in the old days when ASP was a scripting technology. As far as PHP jobs go, search for "PHP" on Craigslist and see how many are posted each week...
ASP up to and including version 3.0 was very similar to PHP: it was a "glue" scripting language that used VBScript to offer dynamic, server-side processing ability. IIS had an "interpreter" similar to the Apache module for PHP most of us are familiar with. You still had to configure IIS to "recognize" .asp files to "parse" properly. Database connectivity was pretty straightforward given the amount of effort Microsoft put into the ADO abstraction layer. It became the de-facto choice because it "shipped free" with Windows Server. If you didn't run Windows Server, you just needed the Windows OS cd to install IIS. Linux in the corporate datacenter was still in it's infancy. Virtualization wasn't as ubiquitous as it is now. So ASP became the "natural" choice in corporate web development.
There were a lot of cool, third-party packages for things like emailing, charting, graphing, etc. But the better ones were not free and most were not open-source. Getting corporate IT to install anything in the production environment was a chore, to say the least. There was also a very active, vibrant community of developers, just like PHP.
When Microsoft created the C# programming language and the .Net platform of technologies, ASP graduated from being a "glue scripting language" to a full-fledged object oriented technology. Over time, ".Net" grew to support more than just C#. One had to learn C# to progress from the old ASP to the new ASP. ASP.Net became one aspect of the larger .Net environment. Also, I don't think VBScript can be used to create ASP "pages" any longer, but I am not sure.
If I am not mistaken, programming in .Net now requires the Visual Studio suite. I am sure there are "free" or "low priced" versions available to students. I am told that even SQL Server administration requires Visual Studio these days.
On the other hand, PHP development tools are still free. Zend Server Community Edition is free. Eclipse PDT is free. Apache projects are free. MySQL, PostgreSQL and even Oracle are free for development and most usage scenarios. All you need is a decent computer and a fast internet connection.
I hope this gives you enough information to help make up your mind. On the PHP mailing list, you are likely to see heavy bias in favor of PHP, naturally.
Good luck with your endeavors!
-Pavan Raj.
Glen Gordon
Hi folks
Pavan, that’s a great writeup of the history of ASP.NET. (disclaimer, I work for Microsoft but as many of you know I’m pretty pragmatic when it comes to picking the right technology for a solution)
Regarding the Microsoft stack: Today, a developer who wants to write web applications with the Microsoft stack has many options. From a language perspective, one can pick from many languages to learn including not only C# or Visual Basic but also Python and Ruby (in the form of IronPython and IronRuby). Those languages can be used to write dynamic web pages with ASP.NET WebForms or ASP.NET MVC (for super clean HTML and separation of concerns). They can also be used to create Silverlight applications or native Windows apps. They can be used to create service layers (SOAP, XML, JSON, REST-style, etc). Finally, it has recently been announced that Silverlight will be one of the frameworks use to write apps for the forthcoming Windows Phone 7 Series platform. http://blog.seattlepi.com/microsoft/archives/196630.asp (hey look, an ASP page! <grin>)
There are free versions to get you started, such as Visual Studio Express and SQL Server Express http://www.microsoft.com/express/. You could also get started on the beta version of Visual Studio 2010 http://www.microsoft.com/visualstudio/en-us/products/2010/default.mspx .
If you do go down the PHP path, you’ll have the benefit of this group as well as a myriad of resources available on the web. I will say that now is the best time ever to be a PHP developer on Windows, there have been tremendous improvements in the support of PHP running on IIS as well as in some of the tools like Expression Web. http://microsoft.com/web even gives you an easy way to download everything so you can get started very quickly.
In any case, consider what type of development you want to be doing. Do you want to be a corporate developer, creating internal applications for your company? Or even external applications? Do you want to be a consultant implementing solutions for clients whom are not your direct employer? Do you want to work for an interactive agency? How about a startup? Having a leaning towards one of these directions gives you differentiated skills, which make you more valuable than the generalist developer.
Finally, make sure you pay attention to Cloud Computing, which exists in many forms today from various providers. Windows Azure is our offering, and in fact PHP runs quite well on it. I’d say the job market in the future will require familiarity and experience with cloud platforms.
-Glen
rick0763
feel (rather I hope) I'm already at entry-level skill for PHP. I was
growing concerned that there may be a major shift to ASP over the past
year or two, but from the responses here that doesn't seem to be the
case at all. As it seems PHP and ASP are not very similar, then my
best bet seems to be to push on with PHP and try to maximize my
abilities there.
The list of skills that employers are looking for is daunting for
someone getting started without formal education in programming. And
yeah, I've heard the term Cloud Computing more and more lately...I
need to add that to the list too? Where would I start with that?
And Glen, if I decided I'd prefer to go down the consultant path, what
skill set would you expect to be most valuable there?
Rick
On Mar 9, 3:44 pm, Glen Gordon <Glen.Gor...@microsoft.com> wrote:
> Hi folks
>
> Pavan, that's a great writeup of the history of ASP.NET. (disclaimer, I work for Microsoft but as many of you know I'm pretty pragmatic when it comes to picking the right technology for a solution)
>
> Regarding the Microsoft stack: Today, a developer who wants to write web applications with the Microsoft stack has many options. From a language perspective, one can pick from many languages to learn including not only C# or Visual Basic but also Python and Ruby (in the form of IronPython and IronRuby). Those languages can be used to write dynamic web pages with ASP.NET WebForms or ASP.NET MVC (for super clean HTML and separation of concerns). They can also be used to create Silverlight applications or native Windows apps. They can be used to create service layers (SOAP, XML, JSON, REST-style, etc). Finally, it has recently been announced that Silverlight will be one of the frameworks use to write apps for the forthcoming Windows Phone 7 Series platform.http://blog.seattlepi.com/microsoft/archives/196630.asp(hey look, an ASP page! <grin>)
>
> There are free versions to get you started, such as Visual Studio Express and SQL Server Expresshttp://www.microsoft.com/express/. You could also get started on the beta version of Visual Studio 2010http://www.microsoft.com/visualstudio/en-us/products/2010/default.mspx.
>
> If you do go down the PHP path, you'll have the benefit of this group as well as a myriad of resources available on the web. I will say that now is the best time ever to be a PHP developer on Windows, there have been tremendous improvements in the support of PHP running on IIS as well as in some of the tools like Expression Web.http://microsoft.com/webeven gives you an easy way to download everything so you can get started very quickly.
>
> In any case, consider what type of development you want to be doing. Do you want to be a corporate developer, creating internal applications for your company? Or even external applications? Do you want to be a consultant implementing solutions for clients whom are not your direct employer? Do you want to work for an interactive agency? How about a startup? Having a leaning towards one of these directions gives you differentiated skills, which make you more valuable than the generalist developer.
>
> Finally, make sure you pay attention to Cloud Computing, which exists in many forms today from various providers. Windows Azure is our offering, and in fact PHP runs quite well on it. I'd say the job market in the future will require familiarity and experience with cloud platforms.
>
> -Glen
>
> From: atlan...@googlegroups.com [mailto:atlan...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Pavan Raj
> Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2010 1:31 PM
> To: rick0...@gmail.com
> Cc: Atlanta PHP; googlegro...@bacn.randallbollig.com
> Subject: Re: [atlphp] Re: PHP and ASP - how similar
>
> I used ASP between 1998 and 2002. I used ColdFusion for a couple years in the early 2000s alongside PHP. It has been almost exclusively PHP since. I have a lot of friends/family who use .Net and Java professionally so I have done a lot of informal comparisons...
>
> I would recommend gaining expertise in one or the other first, before trying to be "cross-platform". I don't think it is easy to switch between programming in PHP and .Net without having used both for a significant length of time. It is definitely more than "just syntax". It tends to be a huge shift in mindset each time you switch. It used to be easier in the old days when ASP was a scripting technology. As far as PHP jobs go, search for "PHP" on Craigslist and see how many are posted each week...
>
> ASP up to and including version 3.0 was very similar to PHP: it was a "glue" scripting language that used VBScript to offer dynamic, server-side processing ability. IIS had an "interpreter" similar to the Apache module for PHP most of us are familiar with. You still had to configure IIS to "recognize" .asp files to "parse" properly. Database connectivity was pretty straightforward given the amount of effort Microsoft put into the ADO abstraction layer. It became the de-facto choice because it "shipped free" with Windows Server. If you didn't run Windows Server, you just needed the Windows OS cd to install IIS. Linux in the corporate datacenter was still in it's infancy. Virtualization wasn't as ubiquitous as it is now. So ASP became the "natural" choice in corporate web development.
>
> There were a lot of cool, third-party packages for things like emailing, charting, graphing, etc. But the better ones were not free and most were not open-source. Getting corporate IT to install anything in the production environment was a chore, to say the least. There was also a very active, vibrant community of developers, just like PHP.
>
> When Microsoft created the C# programming language and the .Net platform of technologies, ASP graduated from being a "glue scripting language" to a full-fledged object oriented technology. Over time, ".Net" grew to support more than just C#. One had to learn C# to progress from the old ASP to the new ASP. ASP.Net became one aspect of the larger .Net environment. Also, I don't think VBScript can be used to create ASP "pages" any longer, but I am not sure.
>
> If I am not mistaken, programming in .Net now requires the Visual Studio suite. I am sure there are "free" or "low priced" versions available to students. I am told that even SQL Server administration requires Visual Studio these days.
>
> On the other hand, PHP development tools are still free. Zend Server Community Edition is free. Eclipse PDT is free. Apache projects are free. MySQL, PostgreSQL and even Oracle are free for development and most usage scenarios. All you need is a decent computer and a fast internet connection.
>
> I hope this gives you enough information to help make up your mind. On the PHP mailing list, you are likely to see heavy bias in favor of PHP, naturally.
>
> Good luck with your endeavors!
>
> -Pavan Raj.
>
> On Tue, Mar 9, 2010 at 11:15 AM, 7263255 <googlegro...@bacn.randallbollig.com<mailto:googlegro...@bacn.randallbollig.com>> wrote:
> Good question.
>
> In my opinion, there's quite a bit of difference between the two
> languages. That being said, the fundamentals of how the web works are
> the same regardless of what language you use so switching between them
> does not mean starting over.
>
> As to the job market... I think that PHP is more likely to be deployed
> in cases where the management doesn't know what technology to use.
> You'll see those positions advertised as "web developer" instead of
> "ASP Programmer." PHP does not have the huge marketing budget that
> Microsoft gives to ASP.NET<http://ASP.NET>, so recruiters and HR people are not as
> familiar with it.
>
> All that being said, I was surprised at the difference between a
> ".asp" and ".php" query in Google. .asp returned 1.9 billion pages
> (1.2 billion for .aspx), PHP returned 5.9 billion pages. So, that's a
> wet-finger indication of the marketplace potential.
>
> -Randall
>
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>
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> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Atlanta PHP" group.
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> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to atlantaphp+...@googlegroups.com<mailto:atlantaphp+...@googlegroups.com>.
7263255
The most successful IT people I know do not have IT degrees. My only
"formal education" in programming was a VB class in college. The real
skill to have in IT is being able to figure things out on your own -
either tinkering or research.
That being said, a college degree is useful for other things besides
just code. A lot of us have business, math, or communications
degrees.
-Randall