Arduino Kiln controller

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obscurity

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Aug 7, 2011, 11:37:40 AM8/7/11
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I've been thinking about an arduino kiln controller. Does anyone have
any experience with similar projects? I have seen several posts on
arduino.cc but most have not finished the projects. It would need to
control 240V 30A or higher power. I am thinking that it should be able
to program and store preprogrammed firing profiles ideally without the
use of an attached computer. As a bonus it would be ideal if it would
also allow the option of using the existing kilnsitter. when you don't
want the complexity of the controller. A later modifcation might be
to make it a mulltizone device controlling each coil individually.

John

TerryKing

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Aug 7, 2011, 8:18:41 PM8/7/11
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Hi John,

Yes, this is a good project that is on my list but a year away,
probably..

I researched Warm Glass a while back and people were using PC's to do
controls.

Google: arduino "kiln controller" and you'll find a lot..

Regards, Terry King
...In The Woods In Vermont
te...@yourduino.com

Isaac Dover

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Aug 8, 2011, 2:12:06 PM8/8/11
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Hey John! Its been a while, I hope the family is well.
 
I'd think that all you really need is a relay that can handle that type of load. But, that's a dangerously high current. If there's a mechanical switch, you might consider a simple servo-linkage mechanism to turn the kiln on/off. Are you looking to simply turn the kiln on/off with the profiles or include feedback through temperature monitoring? I'm working on something faintly similar, but with the opposite in mind - I need to lower and stabalize temperature for fermenting beer. I'm using a few Maxim DS16xx sensors. I couldn't imagine these ICs could come even close to handling kiln temperatures.
 
Thanks,
Isaac


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obscurity

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Aug 8, 2011, 2:48:10 PM8/8/11
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Hey Isaac!!

I would like to set it up so I can design a profile for firing and
then have the kiln attempt to follow it. I guess at that point it
will be a PID controller since it will need to follow some rules as it
tries to mimic the profile. In the first iteration I am just going to
try turning the entire kiln on and off but eventually I would like to
control the coils independently so I can tune the different areas of
the kiln to keep the temperature consistent throughout. I have
ordered a few Max6675 and I slightly higher temperature equivalent
through Maxims samples program. With that stuff I will at least be
able to build a pyrometer so I can tell what is going on inside the
kiln. I still need to figure out what relay I need in order to
control 240V at about 30A. Ultimately I will need to go up to 50A but
I need to try this out on the small kiln first.

Most importantly, what kind of beer are you brewing and when will you
have samples 8)

Hope all is well,
John

Isaac Dover

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Aug 8, 2011, 3:08:38 PM8/8/11
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It may sound silly, but have you looked at electric stove designs and components? Would the coils on a stove get anywhere near the temperatures of your kiln? I'm pretty sure that the full-size stoves are wired for 220/30. I have an electric at home that has digital temperature control for the oven, and - if I'm remembering correctly - the oven can get upwards of 550 degress. Though, I'm not sure what material you're working with, I'm assuming it's clay, and I have little knowledge of the temperatures for this.
 
As for the beer, this is my first batch. I'm a week away from refrigerating bottles, but I popped one this weekend and it's light-bodied, but still much better than I'd expected from a 6 gallon bucket in my closet. It's a recipe from Brewmasters Warehouse, SW Pale Ale. I hope to finish my project in the next couple of weeks so that I can start another batch before school gets heavy again.
Thanks,
Isaac

obscurity

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Aug 8, 2011, 4:52:47 PM8/8/11
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I could probably learn a lot from electric stoves but they do not get
hot enough. Ideally I would like the controller to work up to cone 10
which is approx. 2,426 deg F.

Good luck with the beer!
John

Isaac Dover

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Aug 8, 2011, 5:15:53 PM8/8/11
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Holy cow - that's twice the melting point of aluminum. I had no clue, this is way out of my league. You don't need a microcontroller, you need one of the X-Men.
 
Isaac

obscurity

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Aug 8, 2011, 5:57:43 PM8/8/11
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yeah it gets pretty hot. It made my laundry room close to 100 deg F
and took more than 12 hours to cool down and that was only 2,200 deg
F.
> >http://groups.google.com/group/atlantaarduino?hl=en.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Socoj2

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Aug 8, 2011, 10:02:52 PM8/8/11
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Your thinking low power DC...

Think 240 volt AC @ 20 amps.

You can pump that through a single relay.. Ok a really big one but
still...

John, what kind of Draw does your Kiln have?

im guessing 240 and you are running on a dryer circuit so less than 30
amps?

tip220 Transistor controlling a fairly large 240vac Relay should be a
piece of cake.

I think arduino actually has a relay shield you could run the Relay
off?

i assume you want to take a temp value and adjust based on the
arduino?

we could probably knock this circuit out in a couple hours if you have
a specs on the sensor and the heating element draw?
> > >http://groups.google.com/group/atlantaarduino?hl=en.-Hide quoted text -

obscurity

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Aug 8, 2011, 10:20:24 PM8/8/11
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I am running it off a dryer outlet. This kiln is 208V @ 24A.
Obviously I am not running it at 208V but as I understand it from
several kiln pages as long as I don;t fire it up to cone 10 or so I
won;t dramatically shorten the element lives. Ultimately I would like
to control a 240V 45A kiln. I have been looking for a resonably
priced relay that I can control.
> > > >http://groups.google.com/group/atlantaarduino?hl=en.-Hidequoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

Socoj2

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Aug 10, 2011, 7:36:29 AM8/10/11
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Depends on what you call reasonable. Most of the 240VAC relays in the
50+ amp range are going to be about $100

Mouser has a G3NA-450B which should fit your bill for $100

Also to switch that type of current they apparently take some
rediculous Heat sinks.
> > > > >http://groups.google.com/group/atlantaarduino?hl=en.-Hidequotedtext -

te...@terryking.us

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Aug 10, 2011, 9:06:59 AM8/10/11
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Hi, Been travelling and just saw the discussion.

- Doesn't this large kiln have separate connections to different sets of elements? If so, you might consider separate relays for each section, giving you both some options for control, and decreasing the current rating of the relays.

- I source relay boards from China and I will look at what high-current relays I can get at a good price.� I would like to support kiln applications as well as all the home automation and aquarium etc. guys. I will research that in a couple of days when I get home..

- Control Software: I would lean toward the approach of the CNC machining guys and use an Arduino for the direct 24/7 control, with simple battery backup through power failures.� The host computer can be used to set up the run profiles and timings, and for graphical results etc.��A few years ago I researched Warm Glass and wrote some PC software, including defining a Kiln Control Language which included sensing actual temperatures, venting, etc.� But I never actually implemented it.� But I'd be interested in collaborating on the Arduino and software part from a distance.

I'm from Vermont USA but I'll be living and designing Arduino stuff in Italy next year. I'll dig out my notes when I get home..

http://arduino-info.wikispaces.com/ArduinoPower� has some of my stuff on power. Need bigger relays is all :-)

Regards, Terry King

te...@yourduino.com

obscurity

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Aug 10, 2011, 1:28:13 PM8/10/11
to AtlantaArduino
My end goal if I get that far would be to control them all
individually but as a first step I am aiming to control the entire
kiln. The main advantage is I don;t have to disassemble my wife's
kiln. I am thinking she will be reluctant to go along with this
before a proof of concept Thanks for the link I will check it out.

John

On Aug 10, 9:06 am, te...@terryking.us wrote:
> Hi, Been travelling and just saw the discussion.
> - Doesn't this large
> kiln have separate connections to different sets of elements? If so, you might
> consider separate relays for each section, giving you both some options for
> control, and decreasing the current rating of the relays.
> - I source
> relay boards from China and I will look at what high-current relays I can get
> at a good price.� I would like to support kiln applications as well as all the
> home automation and aquarium etc. guys. I will research that in a couple of
> days when I get home..
> - Control Software: I would lean toward the
> approach of the CNC machining guys and use an Arduino for the direct 24/7
> control, with simple battery backup through power failures.� The host computer
> can be used to set up the run profiles and timings, and for graphical results
> etc.��A few years ago I researched Warm Glass and wrote some PC software,
> including defining a Kiln Control Language which included sensing actual
> temperatures, venting, etc.� But I never actually implemented it.� But I'd be
> interested in collaborating on the Arduino and software part from a distance.
>
> I'm from Vermont USA but I'll be living and designing Arduino stuff in
> Italy next year. I'll dig out my notes when I get home..http://arduino-info.wikispaces.com/ArduinoPower�
> has some of my stuff on power. Need bigger relays is all :-)
> Regards,
> Terry King
> te...@yourduino.com> I am
>
> running it off a dryer outlet. This kiln is 208V @ 24A.> Obviously I
>
> am not running it at 208V but as I understand it from> several kiln
>
> pages as long as I don;t fire it up to cone 10 or so I> won;t
>
> dramatically shorten the element lives. Ultimately I would like> to
>
> control a 240V 45A kiln. I have been looking for a resonably> priced
>
> relay that I can control.
>
>
>
> > On Aug 8, 10:02�pm, Socoj2
> <soc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Your thinking low power DC...
>
> >> Think 240 volt AC @ 20 amps.
>
> >> You can pump that through a single relay.. Ok a really big one but
> >> still...
>
> >> John, what kind of Draw
>
> does your Kiln have?
>
> >> im guessing 240 and you are
>
> running on a dryer circuit so less than 30
>
> >> amps?
>
> >> tip220 Transistor controlling a fairly large 240vac Relay
> should be a
> >> piece of cake.
>
> >> I
>
> think arduino actually has a relay shield you could run the Relay>> off?
>
> >> i assume you want to take a temp
>
> value and adjust based on the>> arduino?
>
> >> we could probably knock this circuit out in a couple hours if you
> have
> >> a specs on the sensor and the heating element draw?
>
> >> On Aug 8, 5:57�pm, obscurity
> <wei...@slamcoll.com> wrote:
>
> >> > yeah it gets pretty hot. �It made my laundry
>
> room close to 100 deg F>> > and took more than 12 hours to
>
> cool down and that was only 2,200 deg
>
> >> > F.
>
> >> > On Aug 8, 5:15�pm, Isaac Dover
> <isaacdo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Holy cow - that's twice the melting point of aluminum. I had no clue,>> this
> >> > > is way out of my league. You don't
>
> need a microcontroller, you need one
>
> >> of
>
> > the X-Men.
>
> >> > > Isaac
>
> >> > > On Mon, Aug 8, 2011 at 4:52 PM, obscurity
> <wei...@slamcoll.com> wrote:
> >> > > > I could
>
> probably learn a lot from electric stoves but they do not get
>
> > > > hot enough. �Ideally I would like the controller to work up to
> >> > > > �> On Mon, Aug 8, 2011 at 2:48 PM, obscurity
>
> <wei...@slamcoll.com>>> wrote:
>
> > > > Hey Isaac!!
>
> > I would like to set it up so I can design a profile for firing and
> >> > > > > > then have the kiln attempt to follow it.
>
> �I guess at that point it>> > > > > > will be a
>
> PID controller since it will need to follow some rules
>
> >> as it
> >> > > > > > tries to mimic the profile. �In the
>
> first iteration I am just>> going to
>
> > > > try turning the entire kiln on and off but eventually I would
> like
> >> to
> >> > > > > > control the
>
> coils independently so I can tune the different areas>> of
> >> > > > > > the kiln to keep the temperature
>
> consistent throughout. �I have>> > > > > > ordered
>
> a few Max6675 and I slightly higher temperature equivalent
>
> > > > > through Maxims samples program. �With that stuff I will at
> least
> >> be
> >> > > > > > able to build
>
> a pyrometer so I can tell what is going on inside>> the
> >> > > > > > kiln. �I still need to figure out what
>
> relay I need in order to>> > > > > > control 240V
>
> at about 30A. �Ultimately I will need to go up to 50A>> but
> > > I've been thinking about an arduino kiln controller. �Does
> >> anyone
> >> > > > have
>
> > > > > > any experience with similar projects? �I have seen
> several
> >> posts on
>
> > arduino.cc but most have not finished the projects. �It would
> >> need
> >> > > > to
>
> > > > > control 240V 30A or higher power. I am thinking that it
> should
> >> be
> >> > > > able
>
> > > > > > > > to program and store preprogrammed firing
> profiles ideally
> >> without
> >> > > > the
> >> > > > > > > > use of an attached computer. �As
>
> a bonus it would be ideal if>> it
>
> would
> >> > > > > > > > also allow the option
>
> of using the existing kilnsitter. when>> you
>
> > > don't
> >> > > > > > > > want the
>
> complexity of the controller. �A later modifcation>> might
> >> > > > be
>
> to make it a mulltizone device controlling each coil
>
> individually.
>
> John
>
> >> > > > > > > > --
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TerryKing

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Aug 10, 2011, 8:20:44 PM8/10/11
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On Aug 10, 1:28 pm, obscurity <wei...@slamcoll.com> wrote:
> My end goal if I get that far would be to control them all
> individually but as a first step I am aiming to control the entire
> kiln.  The main advantage is I don;t have to disassemble my wife's
> kiln.  I am thinking she will be reluctant to go along with this
> before a proof of concept  Thanks for the link I will check it out.
OK, let's think about this:

>>I am running it off a dryer outlet. This kiln is 208V @ 24A.

Ok the effective resistance of this Kiln is R=E/I = 208/24 = 8.666
Ohms
And the total power is P=E*I so 208*24= 4992 watts so nominally 5000
Watts..

BUT you are running 230V approximately, so the actual power is p=E2/R
(Voltage squared over Resistance) so 230*230/8.666 = 6100 watts.
Probably no problem...

The ramp-up with full power will be a little faster....

OK, I'll go looking for mechanical relays and Solid State relays in
China...

Regards, Terry King
...In The Woods In Vermont
te...@yourduino.com

Isaac Dover

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Aug 11, 2011, 5:27:04 PM8/11/11
to atlanta...@googlegroups.com
Hi Terry, are the products at Yourduino your creations? My undergraduate degree is BS in Technology Education and though I'm not teaching now, a lot of these products look like they would be incredibly valuable for education programs. The "Starter Kit 328" is roughly comparable to a Parallax basic stamp starter kit, but this Arduino version is half the price with a much better LCD display - impressive.
 
There's some great stuff here - I'm about to spend some money!
 
Thanks,
Isaac

TerryKing

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Aug 11, 2011, 7:32:37 PM8/11/11
to AtlantaArduino
Hi Isaac & the group,

The products are a collaboration between me and my very good friend
Jun Peng, who I met when I lived in China for 2 years recently. I have
an Automation and Electronics & Software background, and he lives
right in the middle of the huge Electronics Market of Shenzhen, So we
research and scrounge parts and find good prices. Right now I have 15
new sensors he sent me that I need to evaluate, test with Arduino and
write example code for.

The How-To stuff at http://arduino-info.wikispaces.com/ is mostly
mine.. I am trying to have a How-To for every product..

So, my long-time parts scrounging obsession has a new reason for being
outta control :-)

I am collaborating with some schools, Universities and Maker Groups to
put student kits together.. Some are using the Wiki info, but I hope
to have time to work on some actual courseware, which is different
than the online stuff I have been doing.

I'd be interested in your perspective on all this, here or offline.. I
have taught regular University classes, workshops at IBM, Arduino
workshops etc. and I am very interested in ways of presenting All This
to different audiences and ages..

The good thing is I have to try to keep learning ahead of the next
customer...

Regards, Terry King
...In The Woods In Vermont (Italy in September)
te...@yourduino.com

Isaac Dover

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Aug 11, 2011, 7:53:45 PM8/11/11
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Hi Terry, I'd be happy to help. But, rather than hijack John's original kiln thread, feel free to mail me directly.
 
Thanks,
Isaac

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