[ale] Cable modem recommendation
Brian Mathis
Comcast service? Can you recommend a good one? Do any of them
support the phone service as well?
Thanks
❧ Brian Mathis
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Lightner, Jeff
I highly recommend any Motorola Surfboard models. I've been using them for years with zero (modem) problems.
Thanks
❧ Brian Mathis
Athena®, Created for the Cause™
Making a Difference in the Fight Against Breast Cancer
---------------------------------
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mi...@trausch.us
> Is anyone on the list using their own (not leased) cable modem with
> Comcast service? Can you recommend a good one? Do any of them
> support the phone service as well?
I am unaware of any cable modems that you can purchase that have
in-built MTAs; I am pretty sure that you need to get those directly from
the cable company anyway because of the way that they are provisioned.
That said, get a Motorola Surfboard if we're talking about normal
residential service. Those have always been solid for me. The newest
models should support DOCSIS 3, but be sure that you're getting one that
does before actually buying it. I have seen some really old ones on the
shelves at a place or two, so exercise care.
--- Mike
--
A man who reasons deliberately, manages it better after studying Logic
than he could before, if he is sincere about it and has common sense.
--- Carveth Read, “Logic”
LinuxGnome
> Comcast service? Can you recommend a good one? Do any of them
> support the phone service as well?
>
I've had the Motorola SURFboard® SB6121 for just under a month now, since I switched from Uinversed to Comcast. No complaints about the modem itself, just about Comcast's walledgarden config that disabled SNMP. MRTG to the rescue.
--Keith
Lightner, Jeff
My neighbor recently signed up for the whole Comcast package (Phone, Internet, TV). They gave her one central box of some sort which I haven't really looked at. She was asking me yesterday about getting her own router. I told her one can buy rather than rent their own cable modem and switch/router (or a combination thereof) but I don't use the phone service from Comcast so I wasn't sure what they did for that. My assumption is it is just VOIP over the cable internet. She couldn't tell me if she is paying a rental for any device (other than a converter box) and didn't want me to come look.
Does anyone know if there is a special device required for Comcast telephone and if so would they be charging an extra monthly fee and if so if one can buy one rather than rent as they can with cable modem?
Sorry I know its vague - just figured someone else has probably already done all this.
-----Original Message-----
From: ale-b...@ale.org [mailto:ale-b...@ale.org] On Behalf Of LinuxGnome
Sent: Friday, March 30, 2012 10:14 PM
To: Atlanta Linux Enthusiasts
Subject: Re: [ale] Cable modem recommendation
On 03/30/2012 03:44 PM, Brian Mathis wrote:
> Is anyone on the list using their own (not leased) cable modem with
> Comcast service? Can you recommend a good one? Do any of them
> support the phone service as well?
>
I've had the Motorola SURFboard(r) SB6121 for just under a month now, since I switched from Uinversed to Comcast. No complaints about the modem itself, just about Comcast's walledgarden config that disabled SNMP. MRTG to the rescue.
--Keith
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Ale mailing list
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http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo/ale
See JOBS, ANNOUNCE and SCHOOLS lists at
http://mail.ale.org/mailman/listinfo
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Making a Difference in the Fight Against Breast Cancer
---------------------------------
CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail may contain privileged or confidential information and is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution, or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please reply immediately to the sender that you have received the message in error, and delete it. Thank you.
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Jay Lozier
> Speaking of cable modems and such.
>
> My neighbor recently signed up for the whole Comcast package (Phone, Internet, TV). They gave her one central box of some sort which I haven't really looked at. She was asking me yesterday about getting her own router. I told her one can buy rather than rent their own cable modem and switch/router (or a combination thereof) but I don't use the phone service from Comcast so I wasn't sure what they did for that. My assumption is it is just VOIP over the cable internet. She couldn't tell me if she is paying a rental for any device (other than a converter box) and didn't want me to come look.
>
> Does anyone know if there is a special device required for Comcast telephone and if so would they be charging an extra monthly fee and if so if one can buy one rather than rent as they can with cable modem?
>
> Sorry I know its vague - just figured someone else has probably already done all this.
>
TV) for cable TV and a cable modem with two additional standard
telephone jacks to use with a standard wired telephone and fax machine.
The two ports are for different phone numbers so if she has one number
she would use telephone port 1. I have not seen a retail cable modem
with the built in telephone but I have not looked very hard either. I am
not sure of the technical details of their phone service (VoIP, etc).
The combo modems I have seen are made by ARRIS.
--
Jay Lozier
jslo...@gmail.com
Scott Castaline
Hash: SHA1
I remember when I was with Charter I had 2 separate modems, one for
broadband and the other for voice. The voice was on its own frequency
for its carrier.
I'm currently with Comcast and got the triple package when we moved.
The current setup is much like what Jeff describes except my box is
RCA by Thomson and I believe that the VoIP is on the same frequency as
the Broadband.
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mi...@trausch.us
> telephone and if so would they be charging an extra monthly fee and
> if so if one can buy one rather than rent as they can with cable
> modem?
It is indeed some form of VoIP. That said, just like many of the VoIP
providers, they typically require that you use an MTA that is provided
by them and therefore provisioned through them.
I don't know what Comcast's rules are; I'm not sure if they allow you to
swap out for your own dedicated devices or not. I know that many other
providers do not, because of the recent requirements that they provide
certain services in the same way as landlines (e.g., 911 service).
Therefore, they likely require that you use their own device so that
they can control the configuration and such.
The advantage to Comcast's MTAs (which are built-in to the cable modem
itself) is that they have a battery back-up contained in the box, too.
This makes them bigger and heavier, of course, but it means that during
short power outages, you still have telephone service.
The disadvantage, of course, is that you don't have control of the
thing. I know that on the business class services, you don't get to buy
your own cable modem, at least not yet. They have told me that they
plan to allow this in the future, but it seems that for now, they rely
on having control of the device in order to setup whatever tunnel
mechanism they use to deliver static IP blocks to the customer premises.
Michael H. Warfield
> On 04/02/2012 08:33 AM, Lightner, Jeff wrote:
> > Does anyone know if there is a special device required for Comcast
> > telephone and if so would they be charging an extra monthly fee and
> > if so if one can buy one rather than rent as they can with cable
> > modem?
> It is indeed some form of VoIP. That said, just like many of the VoIP
> providers, they typically require that you use an MTA that is provided
> by them and therefore provisioned through them.
Well, there's some variation in the degree of "required". AT&T Uverse
very strongly wants you to use their RG (Residential Gateway) to provide
HPNA network over coax, video over IP, phone VoIP, wired networking and
wireless networking. But their RG is a serious POS. It goes dain
bramaged every once in a while requiring a reset, sometimes loses
setting like static mappings, has a dhcp server that's total junk, and
doesn't support a lot of things I would personally consider mandatory in
a modern device. (The set top boxes - STBs - even run Windows ME for
crying out loud - stone knives and bearskins.) You CAN replace it with
one you buy off the shelf I read on article on a person's experience
getting it up and running. It wasn't a pleasant experience since the
AT&T people are not familiar with provisioning the devices and are not
encouraged or encouraging to pursue it. But they will, if forced. He
got his running. It can be done. It likely won't be easy.
> I don't know what Comcast's rules are; I'm not sure if they allow you to
> swap out for your own dedicated devices or not. I know that many other
> providers do not, because of the recent requirements that they provide
> certain services in the same way as landlines (e.g., 911 service).
> Therefore, they likely require that you use their own device so that
> they can control the configuration and such.
> The advantage to Comcast's MTAs (which are built-in to the cable modem
> itself) is that they have a battery back-up contained in the box, too.
> This makes them bigger and heavier, of course, but it means that during
> short power outages, you still have telephone service.
The AT&T unit has an external battery backup that includes it's DC
supply. I would consider that a plus to having a built in one. As most
of us know all too well, those gel cells go bad after a few years and
are worthless. Then you replace the battery or the UPS or the device.
I would much MUCH rather have a separate UPS that alerts you when the
battery is failing or needs replacement. The one on the AT&T unit isn't
anything to brag about but it doesn't have anything serious to carry.
If it died, they could easily replace it without swapping my whole RG or
ripping it apart to replace.
> The disadvantage, of course, is that you don't have control of the
> thing. I know that on the business class services, you don't get to buy
> your own cable modem, at least not yet. They have told me that they
> plan to allow this in the future, but it seems that for now, they rely
> on having control of the device in order to setup whatever tunnel
> mechanism they use to deliver static IP blocks to the customer premises.
>
> --- Mike
Mike
--
Michael H. Warfield (AI4NB) | (770) 985-6132 | m...@WittsEnd.com
/\/\|=mhw=|\/\/ | (678) 463-0932 | http://www.wittsend.com/mhw/
NIC whois: MHW9 | An optimist believes we live in the best of all
PGP Key: 0x674627FF | possible worlds. A pessimist is sure of it!
mi...@trausch.us
> On Mon, 2012-04-02 at 09:47 -0400, mi...@trausch.us wrote:
>> On 04/02/2012 08:33 AM, Lightner, Jeff wrote:
>>> Does anyone know if there is a special device required for Comcast
>>> telephone and if so would they be charging an extra monthly fee and
>>> if so if one can buy one rather than rent as they can with cable
>>> modem?
>
>> It is indeed some form of VoIP. That said, just like many of the VoIP
>> providers, they typically require that you use an MTA that is provided
>> by them and therefore provisioned through them.
>
> Well, there's some variation in the degree of "required". AT&T Uverse
> very strongly wants you to use their RG (Residential Gateway) to provide
> HPNA network over coax, video over IP, phone VoIP, wired networking and
> wireless networking. But their RG is a serious POS. It goes dain
> bramaged every once in a while requiring a reset, sometimes loses
> setting like static mappings, has a dhcp server that's total junk, and
> doesn't support a lot of things I would personally consider mandatory in
> a modern device. (The set top boxes - STBs - even run Windows ME for
> crying out loud - stone knives and bearskins.) You CAN replace it with
> one you buy off the shelf I read on article on a person's experience
> getting it up and running. It wasn't a pleasant experience since the
> AT&T people are not familiar with provisioning the devices and are not
> encouraged or encouraging to pursue it. But they will, if forced. He
> got his running. It can be done. It likely won't be easy.
DSL networks are very different from cable networks.
In DSL networks, authentication occurs using your personal credentials,
usually over some form of PPP (PPPoE is what AT&T uses, if memory
serves). It is a PITA, but it is possible to do absolutely anything you
want; they cannot make you use a particular device, all they can say is
that your device must not interfere with the telco's network.
OTOH, cable networks use MAC addresses for authentication (wonderful,
isn't it?). A residential Comcast customer that has no services other
than Internet (or Internet and TV, the important thing here being that
they do not have the Voice package) can go out to the store, pick up a
cable modem, install it, and then call Comcast. Comcast will require
that you read the MAC address of the device, and then they will
"provision" it, which involves sending a configuration file to your
local node or hub or whatever it is on their network that your modem
actually talks to. Then, the cable modem will be able to grab a
configuration file and you'll be out of the walled garden.
Now, I have been told that the business class side works a little
differently; they use some form of PKI to provide authentication for the
routed tunnel that you obtain through them.
In the case of AT&T and having a routed block, they will just send your
routed block over your PPPoE session, once established.
I have no clue how to determine what my current cable modem is doing,
because I haven't the ability to capture or monitor the coax side of the
network. If I could only do that...
>> I don't know what Comcast's rules are; I'm not sure if they allow you to
>> swap out for your own dedicated devices or not. I know that many other
>> providers do not, because of the recent requirements that they provide
>> certain services in the same way as landlines (e.g., 911 service).
>> Therefore, they likely require that you use their own device so that
>> they can control the configuration and such.
>
>> The advantage to Comcast's MTAs (which are built-in to the cable modem
>> itself) is that they have a battery back-up contained in the box, too.
>> This makes them bigger and heavier, of course, but it means that during
>> short power outages, you still have telephone service.
>
> The AT&T unit has an external battery backup that includes it's DC
> supply. I would consider that a plus to having a built in one. As most
> of us know all too well, those gel cells go bad after a few years and
> are worthless. Then you replace the battery or the UPS or the device.
> I would much MUCH rather have a separate UPS that alerts you when the
> battery is failing or needs replacement. The one on the AT&T unit isn't
> anything to brag about but it doesn't have anything serious to carry.
> If it died, they could easily replace it without swapping my whole RG or
> ripping it apart to replace.
Agreed.
All-in-one devices are horrible. Evil.
The current cable modem that I have is also a router/gigabit switch. I
cannot disable most of its functionality, and I can't do complex things
with my address space, because this thing sucks so horribly. If only I
had control of my own IPv4 network... oh, well, that's what IPv6 is for!
:-)
scott mcbrien
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004XC6GJ0
Getting them to activate it was easy, called the tech support phone
line, told them I had my own modem, they asked for the MAC address of
it, sent a reset signal or two, and it was done. Took about 30'ish
minutes.
-Scott
Michael Trausch
Oh, would that I could.
I would utterly love to get rid of this SMC POS.
Thankfully, though, it isn't as bad as it used to be. They pushed some firmware updates that vastly increased reliability. But I still hate the thing.
- mike
Lightner, Jeff
On my thread hijack though, I was questioning requirement for Comcast phone setup. Are you using this device to provision Comcast phone service as well as internet?
-----Original Message-----
From: ale-b...@ale.org [mailto:ale-b...@ale.org] On Behalf Of scott mcbrien
Sent: Monday, April 02, 2012 10:37 AM
To: Atlanta Linux Enthusiasts
Subject: Re: [ale] Cable modem recommendation
-Scott
Athena®, Created for the Cause(tm)
Making a Difference in the Fight Against Breast Cancer
---------------------------------
CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail may contain privileged or confidential information and is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution, or use of the contents of this information is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this electronic transmission in error, please reply immediately to the sender that you have received the message in error, and delete it. Thank you.
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Michael H. Warfield
Oh, I'm well aware of how they both work.
> In DSL networks, authentication occurs using your personal credentials,
> usually over some form of PPP (PPPoE is what AT&T uses, if memory
> serves).
That is correct.
> It is a PITA, but it is possible to do absolutely anything you
> want; they cannot make you use a particular device, all they can say is
> that your device must not interfere with the telco's network.
> OTOH, cable networks use MAC addresses for authentication (wonderful,
> isn't it?). A residential Comcast customer that has no services other
> than Internet (or Internet and TV, the important thing here being that
> they do not have the Voice package) can go out to the store, pick up a
> cable modem, install it, and then call Comcast. Comcast will require
> that you read the MAC address of the device, and then they will
> "provision" it, which involves sending a configuration file to your
> local node or hub or whatever it is on their network that your modem
> actually talks to. Then, the cable modem will be able to grab a
> configuration file and you'll be out of the walled garden.
Yeah, I have a couple of DOCSIS 2 cable modems laying around from the
last time I was with Comcast. I've had my own cable and DSL modems for
a very long time. Even had a couple of the Comcast ones tftp booting
from my server to play with them. :-P Actually, I might have given one
of those to my son Scott, since he's still with Comcast.
AFA the link layer authentication goes, that's one thing. In general,
in principle, the VoIP is at least semi-independent.
The cable companies have to walk a fine line or run a foul of the FCC
regulations in this area. At one point the FCC was even requiring cable
companies support "cable cards" for consumer purchased equipment but
that turned into an abject failure as nobody bought them. The biggest
stick in the mud with cable companies is encrypted content such as
premium TV channels, movies, and view on demand. DTV channels sort of
complicated that a bit but there were cable TV tuner / capture cards
that worked really well with the Comcast channels if they weren't
encrypted. That's what the cable cards were SUPPOSE to address by
allowing consumers to provide their own STBs while still allowing the
cable companies control over their premium content. While cable cards
are still a failure, there's still teeth in some of those FCC regs
mandating some level of support for consumer purchased equipment, which
is really where the standardized DOCSIS modems and devices have come in,
which Comcast does support.
> Now, I have been told that the business class side works a little
> differently; they use some form of PKI to provide authentication for the
> routed tunnel that you obtain through them.
Yeah, I have never dug deeply into that but, talking with a couple of
people who have, there's some sort of tunneling involved in there.
> In the case of AT&T and having a routed block, they will just send your
> routed block over your PPPoE session, once established.
Correct.
> I have no clue how to determine what my current cable modem is doing,
> because I haven't the ability to capture or monitor the coax side of the
> network. If I could only do that...
I used to be able to do that (in fact, that's what the second DOCSIS
modem was for). Never really got anything useful out if it and I never
played around with it on the RF level.
There's a couple of styles of adapters out there too which allow you to
piggyback ethernet over 75 ohm coax together with cable. AT&T settled
in on HPNA which is NOT compatible with a coexisting cable TV signal but
they run everything over IP so they don't need it. HPNA boasts 200Mb
over standard grade 75 ohm CATV coax (RG-59) with upgraded connectors.
All the AT&T Uverse STBs are actually HPNA bridges and you can bridge
twisted pair off the back of them down the coax runs. The MoCA adapters
will actually interface Cat 5/5e/6 to your cable TV cable and are
suppose to be compatible with the Comcast signal (they occupy different
parts of the spectrum). I think there's a third standard which is also
suppose to be compatible with standard broadband CATV but I'm not
familiar with it.
Mike
scott mcbrien
-Scott
Brian Mathis
> The cable companies have to walk a fine line or run a foul of the FCC
> regulations in this area. At one point the FCC was even requiring cable
> companies support "cable cards" for consumer purchased equipment but
> that turned into an abject failure as nobody bought them. The biggest
> stick in the mud with cable companies is encrypted content such as
> premium TV channels, movies, and view on demand. DTV channels sort of
> complicated that a bit but there were cable TV tuner / capture cards
> that worked really well with the Comcast channels if they weren't
> encrypted. That's what the cable cards were SUPPOSE to address by
> allowing consumers to provide their own STBs while still allowing the
> cable companies control over their premium content. While cable cards
> are still a failure, there's still teeth in some of those FCC regs
> mandating some level of support for consumer purchased equipment, which
> is really where the standardized DOCSIS modems and devices have come in,
> which Comcast does support.
>
The cablecard requirement has not gone away, and in fact all cable TV
devices must include them. Every cable box has a cable card built-in,
and you can usually find a small access door on the rear of the box
for it. This applies only to full cable boxes, not digital tuning
adapters.
CableCard's only problem is On Demand, and that's something I think
the cable companies intentionally blow out of proportion when you call
to ask for a cablecard. It's in their best interest to try to upsell
you to buy another thing after you already pay them $100+/month for
"basic" service. Premium channels work with no problem -- HBO works
just fine on my TiVo with a multi-stream card.
The next problem coming down the line is switched video, where the
receiver needs to send a signal upstream to get the TV channel sent to
the box. CableCard doesn't support this, but Tru2Way does, though
we'll probably see Internet streaming takeover before tru2way gets any
traction.
❧ Brian Mathis
mi...@trausch.us
> receiver needs to send a signal upstream to get the TV channel sent to
> the box. CableCard doesn't support this, but Tru2Way does, though
> we'll probably see Internet streaming takeover before tru2way gets any
> traction.
There are already some cable networks that are using switched video,
though I don't know how extensive it is. I'm not aware of what Comcast
is doing, though I know that they have at the very least made
preparations for it. There is one provider in northwest Ohio that has
already rolled out SDV for most of their coverage area.
Also, I don't know why this is, but they aren't required to provide
CC-equipped devices. For devices that use CCs, they can give additional
equipment in order to provide compatibility with SDV. However, they
state (on their public page, anyway) that less than 1% of their users
are using cable card equipped devices.[0] They also have a list of the
channels that they currently switch.[1]
I *think* the idea is that they are only required to make a cable card
available to you upon request; I don't think that they're actually
required to make their own STBs use one. Such a requirement wouldn't
make much sense at all, since CC registration requires that you provide
information about the device that you are inserting the CC into, in
order for their authorization setups to work. At least, as I understand it.
I'm pretty much unconcerned with how cable television works these days,
as my only use for cable is for high-speed Internet. (Funny, that... I
remember when cable modems were relatively new and I thought, "Isn't it
wonderful that we can get 768Kbps connections over the same thing that
feeds our TVs?") As far as the Internet side works, if I could:
(a) Obtain a cable modem that has a user-configurable DOCSIS-side
MAC address, and
(b) Configure that cable modem to bring me my /28,
I would be one of the happiest people around. Seriously, I hate this
SMC device on my network *that* much.
Then again, I do have _some_ leeway. I _can_ sacrifice one IP in order
to provide my own NAT with my own rules for the systems that cannot have
GR IPv4 addresses, and I can use that system as a router for the rest of
my routed network, kinda-sorta (though this dumb device insists on not
honoring routing table entries that have to do with its assigned GR
netblock...). But that's really a lot of effort when I could just use a
normal, plain-Jane router and IPsec/tunnel configuration... Anyway,
that's a problem for another day.
--- Mike
[0] http://buckeyecablesystem.com/sdv/
[1] http://buckeyecablesystem.com/sdv/downloads/sdvchannels.pdf
Brian Mathis
> On 04/02/2012 03:44 PM, Brian Mathis wrote:
>> The next problem coming down the line is switched video, where the
>> receiver needs to send a signal upstream to get the TV channel sent to
>> the box. CableCard doesn't support this, but Tru2Way does, though
>> we'll probably see Internet streaming takeover before tru2way gets any
>> traction.
>
> There are already some cable networks that are using switched video,
> though I don't know how extensive it is. I'm not aware of what Comcast
> is doing, though I know that they have at the very least made
> preparations for it. There is one provider in northwest Ohio that has
> already rolled out SDV for most of their coverage area.
I was talking about tru2way, which is the cablecard equivalent for SDV
and ondemand technology. Yes, SDV has been rolled out in many
markets, but tru2way would allow any arbitrary device like TiVo to
also support those services. In lieu of tru2way, you can get USB
addons to add SDV support to devices that only have cablecard.
> Also, I don't know why this is, but they aren't required to provide
> CC-equipped devices. For devices that use CCs, they can give additional
> equipment in order to provide compatibility with SDV. However, they
> state (on their public page, anyway) that less than 1% of their users
> are using cable card equipped devices.[0] They also have a list of the
> channels that they currently switch.[1]
Cable companies love to publicize how few people are using cablecards
because they hate them and want them to die. It would be so much
better for them to force you to rent a $40 cable box for $10 a month
that they control and can force you to watch their own ads whenever
you press the channel guide button or browse the ondemand catalog.
Every time you call to order one, they spend 5 minutes telling you how
much it's going to suck and you can't get all these other wonderful
services. The law says they need to supply them, but they don't have
to like it and they don't have to make it easy. They want the world
to know that no one is using them, so they can go to the FCC and make
them remove the restriction (this is the same reason we are hearing so
much about how badly AT&T is running out of wireless bandwidth right
now). Competition is such a pain.
That said, once I've finally got the installer in the house, so far
things have gone pretty smoothly.
> I *think* the idea is that they are only required to make a cable card
> available to you upon request; I don't think that they're actually
> required to make their own STBs use one. Such a requirement wouldn't
> make much sense at all, since CC registration requires that you provide
> information about the device that you are inserting the CC into, in
> order for their authorization setups to work. At least, as I understand it.
The requirement was put in place to force the cable companies to eat
their own dogfood and make sure cablecard was working on their system.
It's not a big deal at all since they would deliver the cable box
with the card already installed, so most users would never see it
anyway. Though I just checked my cable box, and it doesn't seem to
have one, so maybe this requirement was removed.
>
>[...]
> --- Mike
Matt Rutherford
On Mon, Apr 2, 2012 at 5:25 PM, mi...@trausch.us <mi...@trausch.us> wrote:
> On 04/02/2012 03:44 PM, Brian Mathis wrote:
>> The next problem coming down the line is switched video, where the
>> receiver needs to send a signal upstream to get the TV channel sent to
>> the box. CableCard doesn't support this, but Tru2Way does, though
>> we'll probably see Internet streaming takeover before tru2way gets any
>> traction.
>
> There are already some cable networks that are using switched video,
> though I don't know how extensive it is. I'm not aware of what Comcast
> is doing, though I know that they have at the very least made
> preparations for it. There is one provider in northwest Ohio that has
> already rolled out SDV for most of their coverage area.
I was talking about tru2way, which is the cablecard equivalent for SDV
and ondemand technology. Yes, SDV has been rolled out in many
markets, but tru2way would allow any arbitrary device like TiVo to
also support those services. In lieu of tru2way, you can get USB
addons to add SDV support to devices that only have cablecard.
>[...]
> --- Mike
❧ Brian Mathis
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