Wtd: Cure for being "GAY" ?????
Etop Udoh
I heard somewhere on the Net that there was some
sort of cure for being "GAY"....
anybody have any info on this ?????
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Matthew L Miller
Joe M. Turner (jmtu...@atl.mindspring.com) wrote:
: This looks suspiciously like trolling flamebait. I only say that
: because I've seen so many instances online where a gay person will
: post an "innocent" question like this, and when someone answers with
: *any* kind of idea that homosexuality might not be an immutable part
: of a person's being, then the gay person immediately starts labeling
: the person as a bigot, a homophobe, and other dirty names! :)
Where have you seen these instances, Joe? I've been reading Usenet for
quite awhile, and i've never seen anything like what you've described.
What I have seen, however, is plenty of open and hateful gay-bashing, as
well as the standard "moral" condemnation of the "homosexual lifestyle"
coming from the bible-thumping section. In this atmosphere, I think it is
rather disingenous of you to insinuate that gays are actively trying to
lure people into abusing them. Sadly, the amount of real hatred is such
that it needs no coaxing....
--
STANDARD DISCLAIMERS APPLY
Joe M. Turner
On 5 Dec 1996 09:51:54 -0500, lib...@curly.cc.emory.edu (Matthew L
Miller) wrote:
Matt:
Whether you've seen it or not, it happens. For example, a person
wishes to express their moral objection to the practice of
homosexuality on Biblical or other grounds, but without "condemnation"
or "bashing" anyone. They believe that homosexuality is not an
unchangeable part of an individual's personhood any more than say, a
drug addiction.
However, if a person refers to *any* moral standard at all when
objecting to homosexual behaviour, they are automatically labeled as
bigots, and should someone mention the Bible, well, they are
automatically "Bible-thumpers" and are roundly chastised and
subsequently dismissed as mindless idiots. As *if* no Christian could
possibly be an intelligent, compassionate and articulate person and
still have a moral objection to homosexual behavior.
The amount of needless hatred of both gays and Christians is pitiful.
...
Regards,
JMT
jmtu...@atl.mindspring.com
http://www.atl.mindspring.com/~jmturner
Matthew L Miller
:
: The amount of needless hatred of both gays and Christians is pitiful.
I don't hate Christians, Joe...I just have a moral objection to their
lifestyle choice and its associated behaviors. As individuals, Christians
deserve our love and compassion...However, they should not confuse that
love with tolerance or acceptance of their destructive lifestyle. Hate
the religion, not the believers...that's my motto. Live and let live.
regards Matt
--
STANDARD DISCLAIMERS APPLY
Joe M. Turner
On 5 Dec 1996 10:58:25 -0500, lib...@curly.cc.emory.edu (Matthew L
Miller) wrote:
Nice sarcasm there, Matt. Equating religion with sexual behavior is
an interesting tactic.
What exactly is it about Christianity that you hate, if not the
Christians? (Also, how do you define Christianity?)
Holger
jmtu...@atl.mindspring.com (Joe M. Turner) wrote:
->On 5 Dec 1996 09:51:54 -0500, lib...@curly.cc.emory.edu (Matthew L
->Miller) wrote:
->> Joe M. Turner (jmtu...@atl.mindspring.com) wrote:
->> : This looks suspiciously like trolling flamebait. I only say that
->> : because I've seen so many instances online where a gay person will
->> : post an "innocent" question like this, and when someone answers with
->> : *any* kind of idea that homosexuality might not be an immutable part
->> : of a person's being, then the gay person immediately starts labeling
->> : the person as a bigot, a homophobe, and other dirty names! :)
->> Where have you seen these instances, Joe? I've been reading Usenet for
->> quite awhile, and i've never seen anything like what you've described.
->> What I have seen, however, is plenty of open and hateful gay-bashing, as
->> well as the standard "moral" condemnation of the "homosexual lifestyle"
->> coming from the bible-thumping section. In this atmosphere, I think it is
->> rather disingenous of you to insinuate that gays are actively trying to
->> lure people into abusing them. Sadly, the amount of real hatred is such
->> that it needs no coaxing....
->> --
->Matt:
->Whether you've seen it or not, it happens. For example, a person
->wishes to express their moral objection to the practice of
->homosexuality on Biblical or other grounds, but without "condemnation"
->or "bashing" anyone. They believe that homosexuality is not an
->unchangeable part of an individual's personhood any more than say, a
->drug addiction.
->However, if a person refers to *any* moral standard at all when
->objecting to homosexual behaviour, they are automatically labeled as
->bigots, and should someone mention the Bible, well, they are
->automatically "Bible-thumpers" and are roundly chastised and
->subsequently dismissed as mindless idiots. As *if* no Christian could
->possibly be an intelligent, compassionate and articulate person and
->still have a moral objection to homosexual behavior.
Joe, it seems that you might not realize that many gays are Christians
who are intelligent, compassionate and articulate people and have a
moral objection to homosexual behavior. Many kill themselves because
of this. Don't think for one moment that they would kill themselves
if they thought there was any way to change to being a heterosexual.
It is no more possible to change from gay to heterosexual than it is
to change from heterosexual to gay. Any cases that you know of are
evidently extremely rare, and would be hard to document as to their
authenticity. There are of course bisexual individuals who decide to
become totally straight maybe, and there are confused individuals who
experiment with gay acts and heterosexual acts and finally settle for
one or the other. Even if there are a few isolated instances of
someone who may have been gay or heterosexual and changed to the other
lifestyle, then this is not a criterior to use to change the fact that
changing is just not possible anymore than you can change many other
things that you are born with.
Now please don't start ranting about gays not being Christians and all
of that crap. If you want to believe what the Old Testament says then
that's up to you. There are some good things in the Old Testament,
and there are some bad things. I want no part of the Old Testament
that describes God as a mean unforgiving God killing thousands of
people, etc.. That kind of God is not for me and millions of others.
You just can not take The Old Testament literally. There are many,
many things that just wouldn't make sense that way. In Genisis, for
instance, what was the length of "the first day"? Was it 24 hours?
How could it be if the earth was not revolving and orbiting the sun?
It's a parable. It has to be. You can't explain to modern man how
the earth was created, much less people like the barbaric tribes who
combed their hair with dog urine, etc..
->The amount of needless hatred of both gays and Christians is pitiful.
It sure is. Seems like the Christians have slaughtered millions of
people over the centuries in the name of religion. Kind of sad isn't
it?
->...
->Regards,
->JMT
->jmtu...@atl.mindspring.com
->http://www.atl.mindspring.com/~jmturner
Holger
Fly high and free beyond birthdays and across forever,
and we will meet now and then when we wish,
in the midst of the one celebration that can never end.
Matthew L Miller
Joe M. Turner (jmtu...@atl.mindspring.com) wrote:
: Nice sarcasm there, Matt. Equating religion with sexual behavior is
: an interesting tactic.
Also interesting is the fact that you and your ilk cannot seem to
understand that there is more to personal sexuality than "behavior." I
won't stoop to debating whether or not homosexuality is an innate or
acquired preference, because that is beside the point. In my eyes, the
real issue is whether or not people like you are going to be able to stop
worrying about what other people do with their lives.
: What exactly is it about Christianity that you hate, if not the
: Christians? (Also, how do you define Christianity?)
As you correctly surmised, Joe, I was being sarcastic. I don't hate
Christianity, because, as you imply, it is not a monolithic entity. I
think that the teachings of Christ on tolerance and love for one's fellow
beings are great, and I do my best to follow them (or at least my
interpretation of them). However, I consider most of the people who think
they are "doing god's work" to be severely arrogant and misguided and, in
many cases, to be working against the very ideas that I feel are
represented in the teachings of Christ. The Christian Right in America
wants to control other people's behavior, based on "moral standards"
derived from specious and agenda-driven interpretations of a book that
itself has quite a questionable provenance, to say the least. Hypocrites
like Pat Robertson and James Dobson who eschew tolerance in favor of
judgement and condemnation make me want to vomit. They claim to
representing god on earth but are really only on their own personal power
trip. They have monopolized the "Christian" label, drowning out those
Christians who might disagree with their damning judgements against
"sinners." The term "Pharisee" comes to mind when I see these hypocrites
casting stones without looking first to themselves.
The claim to have some sort of monopoly on the truth is a trait shared by
many other religions, and one that causes me a lot of concern. You are
free to live your life by whatever sort of moral code you wish to adopt,
but I resent it greatly when it is stated or implied that I or anyone
else need change our behavior to fit your beliefs.
--
STANDARD DISCLAIMERS APPLY
Joe M. Turner
This whole thread has only proven what I originally said. The very
*proposition* that homosexuality may not be an inherent part of an
individual's personhood is very, *very* intolerable to those who
preach so-called "tolerance" the loudest.
My gay and Christian friends -- and yes, folks, I know there is
overlap in those two sets! -- would heartily disagree with the
proposition made by some thusfar that I am a "bigot." I love my gay
friends and would be devastated were anything to happen to them.
Simply because I do not feel that their sexual choices are moral does
*NOT* in any way imply that I lose sleep worrying about what other
people do in their own homes, as was whinily posited earlier. In case
you have all forgotten so soon, I didn't raise the subject of
homosexuality; this *thread* was labeled as such and I contributed an
opinion on both the question of the thread and the typical response to
such questions.
I believe I am correct on the first point; others may and do disagree.
And judging from the response to this thread so far, it is clear that
I was correct on the second. I posted no attack on anyone, only
suggested what would happen should someone voice an opinion that
gayness isn't necessarily any more permanent than any other physical
or psychological addiction. What happened? The insults started
flowing.
Joe M. Turner
Christian Ministries for People Wanting Help
in Dealing with Homosexuality
Alabama
Nikon Counseling, Birmingham
Arizona
His Image, John Butler, 602-259-7226 (8-8/voicemail), PO Box 642,
Peoria AZ 85380
HA Phoenix or Tempe, 602-966-6341
HA Tucson, 602-577-2805
Arkansas
Sanctuary, Johnny Moore, 501-521-5683 (M-F 8-5/church office), c/o
Christian Life Cathedral, 1285 Milsap
Rd, Fayetteville AR 72703
HA Little Rock, 501-225-4668
California
New Hope Charitable Foundation, San Rafael Special ministries:
residential program
Desert Stream Ministries Special ministries: AIDS
HIS Ministry, Carl Conli, 916-969-3929, FAX 916-726-7580, Sunrise
Baptist Church, 8321 Greenback Lane, Fair
Oaks CA 95628
Journey Christian Ministries, Pastor Andria Sigler, 310-798-8284 or
909-245-2402 (M-Sat), 30713 Riverside Dr
Suite 203, Lake Elsinore CA 92530.
Transformed Image, Pastor Michael Dismore, 408-496-9888 (M-F 9-4),
PO Box 18055, San Jose CA 95118.
Special ministries: AIDS
New Creation Ministries, Bud Searcy, 209-227-1066 (M-F 9-4), FAX
209-227-4182, 2513 Shaw Ave #102-A,
Fresno CA 93711. Special ministries: AIDS [Christian AIDS Network],
Spanish, American Sign Language
Thomas Aquinas Psychological Clinic, Joseph Nicolosi, 818-789-4440
(24-hr answering service), FAX
805-373-5084. 16542 Ventura Blvd Suite 416, Encino CA 91436.
Apotaka Ministries, Dr. Melvin Wong, 415-421-6848 (M,Tu),
510-794-8898 (W,F). FAX 510-475-1473. c/o
Psychological Services, 220 Montgomery St Suite 1098, San Francisco,
CA 94104; or, 1357 Mowry Ave, Fremont
CA 94538 Special ministries: Chinese (Cantonese, Mandarin)
NEW Ministries. Mark Gebhardt. 510-728-9300. PO Box 3288, San
Leandro, CA 94578.
Straight Paths Ministries, Andre Epstein, Concord, CA 94521. See
web page for details of address, telephone,
and ministries.
Genesis Counseling, Joe Dallas, 714-744-3326 (M-Sa 9-5), 307 E Chapman
Ave, Orange CA 92666
Spatula Ministry. Barbara Johnson, 310-691-7369. Special ministry:
parents.
Choices Ministry. Floyd Shaw, 415-368-3821, FAX 415-368-0790, 1305
Middlefield Rd., Redwood City CA 94063.
Special ministries: men's live-in program
HA Azusa or Costa Mesa, 909-883-7270
HA Corona, 909-883-7270
HA San Bernadino, 909-797-0736
HA San Francisco, 707-422-7243
HA San Jose, 408-496-9888
Colorado
Where Grace Abounds, Mary Heathman, 303-863-7757 (Tu-F 10-5), FAX
call first; PO Box 18871, Denver CO
80218-0871
His Heart, Rev. Shaun McDonald, 303-369-2961, FAX 303-752-3665, Box
12321, Aurora CO 80012 Special
ministries: AIDS, *men's live-in program
Jami Breedlove Ministries, 970-663-7778, FAX 970-667-7162, Box 7242,
Loveland CO 80537 Special ministries:
women's & men's live-in program
Abba's Heart Ministries, Bill Donelson, 303-979-1404, FAX
303-972-9060, Box 101029, Denver CO 80250
Janelle M. Hallman, M.A., 303-273-2877, 6475 Wadsworth Blvd. #104,
Arvada CO 8003.
HA Colorado Springs, 719-635-0086
Connecticut
HOPE Ministries, Bill Consiglio, 203-248-5274 (M-F 11-4), FAX
203-287-1562, Box 604, 60 Skiff St, Hamden CT
06517
Shoreline Christian Counseling, Tom Ruotolo, 203-318-0700 (M-Th
10:30-5), FAX 203-318-0701, 145 Durham
Rd Suite 87, Madison CT 06443.
Florida
Betach Ministries, Bob & Kathy Fisher, 904-271-4069, PO Box 6455,
Callaway FL 32404
Elutheros, Michael H. Barber, 407-629-5770 (M-F 8-5), 12898
Minnesota Ave Suite D, Winter Park FL 32789
Special ministries: AIDS
Straight Ahead Ministries, David E. Steege, 813-985-8891 (M-F
10-4), PO Box 16889, Temple Terrace FL 33687
Special ministries: American Sign Language
Worthy Creations, Richard Culbertson, 305-680-3538 (M-F 10-4), FAX
305-791-8226, 3601 Davie Blvd, Ft
Lauderdale FL 33312 Special ministries: AIDS
Isaiah 56 Ministry. Yvonne Wind, P.A. 305-452-9990. Referral to Isaiah
56 Ministry, a Texas-based ministry for
help with transsexuality, pedophilia. Therapist available for dealing
with AIDS.
Georgia
Living Stones Fellowship, John A. Barber, 404-261-0720 ext 280 (M-F
8-5), Mt Paran Church of God, 2055 Mt
Paran Rd NW, Atlanta GA 30327
Pneumatikos, Randy L. Hortman, 912-825-0102 (M-Th 7-9pm; F-Sun), PO
Box 6808, Macon GA 31208
Resurrection Life Ministries, Mike Caven, 404-636-5924 (M-F 9-5),
FAX 404-636-1211, PO Box 95205, Atlanta
GA 30347
Jedidiah Ministries, Debra Martin, 706-291-4040, PO Box 10-220, 2204
Shorter Ave, Rome GA 30165
Hawaii
He Kanaka Hou / New Creation Ministries, Bishop Richard Lipka,
808-261-7008, FAX 808-262-8724, 765
Pahumele Place, Kailua, HI 96734
Idaho
Bellwether Ministries, Sharon Slocum, 208-345-7994 (M-F 6-10pm; Sat
10-6), FAX 208-343-4993, PO Box 15766,
Boise ID 83715 Special ministries: AIDS
Illinois
Nehemiah Ministries, Kent Paris, 217-344-4636 (M-F 8-5), PO Box
773, Urbana IL 61801
Reconstruction Ministries--Broken Yoke, Peoria IL 414-896-0841 [See
Wisconsin]
Transformed by Grace, Douglas & Melanie Geyer, 708-733-0511
(8am-3pm), Reba Place Church, P.O. Box
6237, Evanston IL 60204-6237. Groups meet throughout the Chicago area.
A home page is available.
Courage, Chicago, 708-678-3326, ask for R. J. Gilio
Overcomers, Judy-Rae Karlsen, Chicago, 312-477-6611
Indiana
Restoration, Scott Infante, 317-786-4090 (M-Th 9-4), FAX 317-786-4093,
PO Box 17917, Indianapolis IN 46217
Iowa
Freedom Ministries, Jack Morlan, 515-244-8073 (M,W 9-3), FAX
515-243-2958, PO Box 12189, Des Moines IA
50312
Kansas
Freedom At Last, Michael S. Babb, 316-945-7050 (M-F 8-5), FAX
316-946-9966, PO Box 13314, Wichita KS 67213
Special ministries: AIDS, men's & women's live-in programs
Second Chance Ministries, 913-381-4253 (M-F 12-5), Patricia Smith,
PO Box 12265, Overland Park KS 66282
HA Kansas City, 316-223-2065
Kentucky
CrossOver Ministries, Jerry Leach, 606-277-4941 (M-F 8am-10pm), FAX
606-278-9721, PO Box 23744,
Lexington KY 40523 Special ministries: Transexuality
Pathway Ministries, Martin K. Ward, 502-361-2106 (M-F 4-9), PO Box
9404, Louisville KY 40209-0404 Special
ministries: AIDS
Pure Life Ministries, Steve Gallagher, 606-824-4444. PO Box 410, Dry
Creek, KY 41035 Live-in program for those
dealing with sexual addictions of all kinds. Chapters holding regular
meetings are available in various parts
of the country.
Louisiana
HA New Orleans, 504-246-4265
Maine
Amazing Grace Ministries, Jane Boyer, 207-879-2554, PO Box 8234,
Portland ME 04104
Crown of Life Ministry, Edgar M. Bailey, 207-772-7626, PO Box 11404,
Portland ME 04104
HA Bangor/Central Maine or Caribou/Northern Maine, 207-941-9596
Maryland
Regeneration, Baltimore and elsewhere
International Healing Foundation, Richard Cohen, 301-858-1181, FAX
301-341-1258. Box 901, Bowie, MD
20718-0901. Special ministries: licensed counsellor
HA Frederick, * 301-694-4949, 215-376-1146
Massachusetts
Transformation Ministries, Peter Robicheau Jr, 617-445-1787, PO Box
1313 Back Bay Annex, Boston MA 02117
HA Boston, 617-445-1787
HOPE Ministries, Springfield [See Connecticut]
Michigan
Reconciliation Ministries, Tom Cole, 313-255-0212 (M-F 9-5), FAX
313-255-1865, c/o Restoration Christian
Fellowship, 22575 W Eight Mile Rd, Detroit MI 48219
Jerico Ministries, Regina Carl, 616-375-7354, PO Box 224, Oshtemo
MI 49077-0224 [Kalamazoo area],
Wellspring Ministries of West Michigan. Noel G. Christoff,
616-676-8777, 1460 Buttrick SE, Ada MI
49301-9600.
HA Detroit, 313-881-4170
HA Ann Arbor, 313-761-4742
Minnesota
Eagle's Wings, Nancy L. Anderson, 612-522-2782 (M-Th 1-5), FAX
612-522-1757, PO Box 11246, Minneapolis
MN 55411 Special ministries: Parents' groups, live in program for
women
Outpost, Gary Bawden, Dan Puumala, 612-754-5687 (M-F 8:30-4:30),
FAX 612-754-5730, PO Box 49278,
Minneapolis MN 55449-0278
Keys Ministry, Rev. Rodel Eberle, 507-352-4110, Box 97, Wykoff, MN
55990
HA Austin, Rochester, or Winona, 507-352-4110
Mississippi
HA Jackson, 601-949-1948
Missouri
Jubilee, George Stricker, 314-239-9080, 4650 Highway A, Washington
MO 63090
Jubilee, St. Louis [See above]
New Dawn West, Wayne & Joan Doyle, 417-866-2361 (M-F 9-5), 444 W
Grand, Springfield MO 65807
Second Chance, Kansas City MO [See Kansas]
Nebraska
Father-Heart Ministries, Kevin D. Hutchison, 402-330-5724, ext.
3346 (M-F 8-5), FAX 402-330-2084, Trinity
Church Interdenominational, 15555 W Dodge Rd, Omaha NE 68154-2099
New Hampshire
ReCreation, Warren A. Aldrich, 603-485-2199, PO Box 788, Manchester
NH 03105-0788
New Jersey
New Dawn Ministries East, Sal & Carol Latella, 201-694-2938 (church
office; leave message), PO Box 3689,
Wayne NJ 07474
New Mexico
Free Indeed Ministries, Barbara & Ron Swallow, 505-275-9623
(M,Tu,Th,F 9-noon), 2417 Wyoming NE,
Albuquerque NM 87112
New York
All In His Name Ministries, Terry Cowles, 716-884-3227, New Life
Assembly of God Church, 14 North St,
Buffalo NY 14202
Whosoever Will Ministry, Penny Dalton / John Evans, 914-374-8128
(M-F 1-5), PO Box 277, Middletown NY
10940
Hope Ministry NYC, James Bond. 212-246-4357. FAX 212-581-9347. c/o
Calvary Baptist Church, 123 W 57th St.,
New York, NY 10019.
Malachi Ministry, 716-473-5876, Brighton Presbyterian Church, 1776
East Avenue, Rochester NY 14610
Alternative to Homosexuality, Anonymous (AHA), James Aist, Cornell
University, Ithaca NY 14853. Provides
informational packets on reparative therapy.
LIFE, Ron & Joanne Highley, 212-265-6044, PO Box 353, NY, NY 10185
Special ministries: AIDS
Salt Mine Ministry. Steve & Desiree Rooks, 718-783-0942.. Brooklyn
Tabernacle, 290 Flatbush Ave, Brooklyn NY
11225. Counselling; referral to Isaiah 56 Ministry in Texas for
live-in help related to pedophilia and
transsexuality.
North Carolina
Breaking Free, John Benson, 704-297-2277 (M-F 8-noon), PO Box 225
DTS, Boone NC 28607
New Life Ministries, Bob Foote, 910-226-5277 (M,Tu,Th 10-3), c/o
Liberty Church, 127 Markham St,
Burlington NC 27215
Olive Branch Ministries, Tony Bishop, 919-829-1489, PO Box 20042,
Raleigh NC 27619-0042.
Beyond Imagination. Ron Elmore. 919-829-1489. PO Box 28294, Raleigh,
NC 27611-8294
Recovery House/Crossroads [Catholic], Larry Bell, 704-536-6705 or
704-377-6871 (daily 9-9), 1524 E. Morehead,
Charlotte NC 28207
Beyond Imagination. Ron Elmore. 919-829-1489. PO Box 28294, Raleigh,
NC 27611-8294
Refuge Ministries, Michael Hunnicutt, 910-643-3198, 8407 Stokesdale
St, Stokesdale NC 27357 Special ministries:
AIDS
Ohio
Healing Touch Ministry, Charles Voelker, 513-885-1051 or
513-422-0332 (M-F 8-5), FAX 513-433-6076, PO Box
750282, Dayton OH 45475
In His Image, Brenda & Paul Barbarino, 216-953-1536, PO Box 174,
Willoughby OH 44094
Prodigal Ministries, Jerry Armelli & Kathy Fisher, 513-861-0011
(Tu-F 9-5), PO Box 19949, Cincinnati OH
45219 Special ministries: AIDS
Pure Life Ministries/ Jim Suchenski. 216-228-4149. PO Box 770232,
Lakewood, OH 44107-0232.
Journey Ministries. Mark C. Klise. 614-879-7197 (M, Tu, W 8-5) PO Box
20238, Columbus, OH 43220.
Hope Fellowship Services. Elton L. Moose. 513-390-7641. PO Box 256,
Springfield, OH 45501.
Bridge, Kathleen Jane Fulks, 614-228-1262 (M-F 8-4), 1066 Bellows Ave,
Columbus OH 43223
HA Cleveland, 216-840-1818
HA Springfield, 513-390-7641
Oklahoma
First Stone Ministries, Oklahoma City
First Stone Ministries, Lawton [See above]
Restoration Outreach, Jerry & Wanda Harris, 918-254-1175 (Tu-F 8-4;
Sat 9-1), PO Box 55236, Tulsa OK
74155-1236 Special ministries: AIDS
HA Norman or Oklahoma City, 405-364-9845
HA Tulsa, 918-299-3113
Oregon
The Portland Fellowship, Phil Hobizal, 503-235-6364 (M-F 9-4), FAX
503-235-3896, PO Box 9205, Portland OR
97207 Special ministries: AIDS
Pennsylvania
Day Seven Ministries, Peter Lines, 717-367-7117, FAX 717-531-6491,
PO Box 575, Elizabethtown PA 17022-0575
free!, Mechanicsburg
Jonathan Inman, 215-342-7114 (M-F 9-4:30), FAX 215-342-3585, PO Box
11469, Philadelphia PA 19111 Special
ministries: adolescents
Dunamis, Michael Lumberger, 412-731-3828 (M-F 1-6), 1111 Wood St,
Pittsburgh, PA 15221
Katallage Ministries, Jim Johnson, 412-361-5733, Box 8164, Pittsburgh,
PA 15217.
Courage, [Catholic] Harrisburg 717-232-2169 ext. 40
HA Philadelphia, 215-729-7304
HA Reading or Lancaster, John J., 610-376-1146
HA Scranton/Wilkes-Barre, 717-822-2176
Puerto Rico
Puerto Rico is administered by Exodus -- Latin America.
South Carolina
Solid Rock. Dan Garvin. 864-232-2197 (M-F 10-6). Agape Professional
Counseling, 211 Century Drive C-1009,
Greenville, SC 29607.
Tennessee
Living Hope, Jay Henderson, 615-470-9800, FAX 615-470-2820, PO Box
52883, Knoxville TN 37950
Love in Action International, John J. Smid, 901-542-0250 (M-F 9-5),
FAX 901-542-9742, PO Box 753307,
Memphis TN 38175 Special ministries: men's live-in program
Mastering Life Ministries, Hermitage.
Promise. 615-254-8342 (M-F 8-6), FAX 615-254-8336, Christian
Counseling Services, PO Box 60383, Nashville
TN 37206 Special ministries: AIDS
Restoration in Him, Gerald & Sharis Blackburn, 901-375-8111 (M-F
9-5) c/o Central Church, 6655 Winchester,
Memphis TN 38115
TrueHope. Michael Malloy. 615-221-8946 (M-F), FAX 615-298-3351
[mention Daystar in the FAX]. c/o
Daystar, PO Box 3574, Brentwood TN 37024-3574.
HA Chattanooga, 615-698-4491
HA Knoxville, 615-525-7413
Texas
Awakening, Gloria J. Zwinggi, Phone & FAX 210-633-2235, PO Box
201004, San Antonio TX 78220 Special
ministries: Family support
Christian Coalition for Reconciliation, Michael R. Newman,
713-465-7045 (M-F 12-5), FAX 713-984-2262, PO
Box 420437, Houston TX 77242-0437 Special ministries: Spanish, French
LifeGuard Ministries. Don and Nancy Brown. 512-930-3970 (9am-10pm).
6611 Berrywood Ln, Georgetown,
TX 78628.
Living Hope Ministries, Eddie Traughber, 817-640-4044 (M, W
10:30-1)
New Mercy Outreach, W. Fred Griffin, 915-544-8161 (Tu-F 9-5), 2626
N Mesa Suite 143, El Paso TX 79902
Sexual Wholeness Ministries, Tim Gould, 713-992-8800 (M-Th 9-8; F
9-noon), FAX 713-992-8886. PO Box 973,
Pearland TX 77588.
Isaiah 56 Ministries. Pastor Terry Wier, 214-823-9893, Isaiah
Christian Church, 2703 N. Fitzhug, Dallas 75204. You
may e-mail Pastor Wier. Therapeutic Living Center (24-unit apartment
live-in program) for transsexuals,
dragqueens, and butchqueens
Renew, Christopher J. Austin, 214-986-1742 or 214-986-8962, South
MacArthur Family Life Center, 1401 S.
MacArthur Blvd., Irving TX 75060-5848. Excellent resource manual, $25
plus $5 postage. Individual counseling.
HA Austin, 512-419-4027
HA Dallas, 214-816-2061
HA Ft. Worth, 817-530-8697
HA Houston, 713-337-2830
HA McAllen, 210-972-1113
Virginia
Regeneration, Charlottesville VA [See Maryland]
Regeneration--Northern Virginia, Bob Ragan, 703-591-4673 (M-F
11-5), PO Box 1034, Fairfax VA [See
Maryland also]
Set Free, Barry Anderson, 804-358-8150 (M 1:30-8; T-F 9-3:30), FAX
804-358-7520, PO Box 14835, Richmond
VA 23221
Sought Out, Katherine M. Allen, 804-631-0099 (M-F 1-5), FAX
804-340-8006, PO Box 62019, Virginia Beach VA
23462-2019
Parents & Friends of Ex-Gays (PFOX), Scott Stracken, 703-689-3578
Christian Fellowship Church, Vienna, VA
Kerusso Ministries, Michael D. Johnston Recently moved from Alaska,
Mr. Johnston is in the process of
relocating in Virginia. A current address is not available.
Washington
Metanoia Ministries, Robert K. Brown, 206-783-3500 (M-F 9-5), FAX
206-783-0080 (must call voicephone first),
PO Box 33039, Seattle WA 98133 Special ministries: AIDS, Spanish
Washington DC
See also Virginia
Transformation Ex-gay Christian Ministries, Anthony A. Falzarano,
202-371-0800, FAX 202-371-0378, 1017
12th St NW, Washington DC 20005
Veritas [Roman Catholic], Rev. Morro, 202-347-3215, St. Matthew's
Cathedral
Wisconsin
Broken Yoke Ministries, Robert J. VanDomelen. 414-896-0841. FAX
same, call first. 25050 Bluemound Rd,
Pewaukee, WI 53072. Other chapters in Madison, and Neenah, WI; and
Peoria, IL.
HA Eau Claire, 715-832-7829
HA LaCrosse, 507-352-4110
Joe M. Turner
On Thu, 05 Dec 1996 19:00:03 GMT, jw43...@atl.mindspring.com (Holger)
wrote:
> Now please don't start ranting about gays not being Christians and all
> of that crap.
Holger, don't put words in my mouth. I *NEVER, EVER, EVER* said this.
I know it to be false.
Please be careful in the way you attribute things to people. I
absolutely deny both the attribution of my "ranting" such nonsense as
you posted above, as well as denying the statement itself.
For all the incivility of bashing -- or even plain baiting -- gays, it
has certainly taken no time at all for the equally incivil
anti-Christian type of arguments to float to the surface.
Matthew L Miller
: *proposition* that homosexuality may not be an inherent part of an
: individual's personhood is very, *very* intolerable to those who
: preach so-called "tolerance" the loudest.
Well, Joe, that's because that proposition equates to a rejection of what
many gay people consider to be an essential part of their nature. The
idea that homosexuality could or should be "cured" is founded in and based
on intolerance. It implies that gay people are less worthy than straight
people. The defensiveness of your response (I, for one, never called you
a bigot--I only said your views represented those of the Christian Right.
Lie down with dogs, get up with fleas) makes me think that you already
understand why this simple proposition is extremely offensive to a lot of
people. It basically boils down to: "You are not good enough as you are.
You must change or you will burn in hell." You're crazy if you expect me
to be tolerant of this kind of moralistic judging.
: And judging from the response to this thread so far, it is clear that
: I was correct on the second. I posted no attack on anyone, only
: suggested what would happen should someone voice an opinion that
: gayness isn't necessarily any more permanent than any other physical
: or psychological addiction. What happened? The insults started
: flowing.
No, Joe, I'm afraid you have it wrong. Someone posted requesting
information about a "cure" for homosexuality. Your utterly paranoid
assertion was that the post was likely to be was a ruse on the part of
some cunning gay person to trick some unwitting and good-hearted christian
into responding. You anticipated a nonexistent attack, similar to the
nonexistant "assualt on family values" that gays are accused of
perpetrating in america.
I find it sadly predictable that moralistic christians like yourself often
cry "victim" when their selfish motives are exposed. Yes, we know, you're
just trying to help us get saved...it's for our own good, right? If you
don't understand why that's offensive, I can't do nothin' for you.
--
STANDARD DISCLAIMERS APPLY
Sweet Pea
>represented in the teachings of Christ. The Christian Right in America
>wants to control other people's behavior, based on "moral standards"
>derived from specious and agenda-driven interpretations of a book that
Please do not confuse groups like the Christian Coalition and people like
Pat Robertson with Christians. They are not the same thing.
Matthew
--
"...to preserve Liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people
always possess arms and be taught alike, especially when young, how to
use them."
- Richard Henry Lee, Virginia Delegate to the Continental Congress
Joe M. Turner
On 5 Dec 1996 15:59:44 -0500, lib...@curly.cc.emory.edu (Matthew L
Miller) wrote:
<snip>
> I find it sadly predictable that moralistic christians like yourself often
> cry "victim" when their selfish motives are exposed. Yes, we know, you're
> just trying to help us get saved...it's for our own good, right? If you
> don't understand why that's offensive, I can't do nothin' for you.
Oh give me a break, Matt. Anyone reading this can easily go back
through this whole discussion and read everything I've posted and see
that it is nothing like the characterization you have made above.
Moralistic? I think you mean "moralizing," but either way, it's not
true. I have not condemned, punished, threatened, harassed, bashed,
beat, forced or impugned anybody. I stated my opinions -- just as you
have!
I do not think of homosexual people as any less worthy of respect or
civility than any other person, and the many, many straight and
homosexual people I've met and know and love (particularly in theatre
and the arts) would heartily disagree with your electronic
psychoanalysis of me and my "motives."
By saying homosexuality is not necessarily permanent implies nothing
about its desirability. For example, good behavior by a spoiled child
is certainly desirable and unfortunately temporary. So your reading
into my statement that homosexuality may not be an inherent part of a
person's nature reflects your own biases equally as well as any of
mine.
Finally, my original post made 2 points, one of which was information
relating to the question, and another comparing the post to other
posts I have seen before and the results thereof. As far as paranoia
goes, I have no paranoia about what has happened, even though it went
down precisely as I said. Notice that the original poster has not
replied at all! This is also trolling behaviour -- get in, stir up,
and leave. As much as you've been on usenet, you should recognize
this. I'm not saying they *are* trolling; I'm saying that there was a
similarity in the situation. There is a difference.
Paranoia? I think there is *far* more paranoia from those who are
unwilling to accept even the remote possibility that homosexuality may
not be intrinsic to a person's being, regardless of the moral
consequences (if any).
Joe M. Turner
On 5 Dec 1996 16:21:53 -0500, gt5...@prism.gatech.edu (Sweet Pea)
wrote:
> >represented in the teachings of Christ. The Christian Right in America
> >wants to control other people's behavior, based on "moral standards"
> >derived from specious and agenda-driven interpretations of a book that
> Please do not confuse groups like the Christian Coalition and people like
> Pat Robertson with Christians. They are not the same thing.
And also not completely separate. Same as homosexuals -- some are
Christians, some are not. Same with any group, even a Christian
church congregation: some are Christians, some are not.
Not being Pat Robertson, I can't speculate as to his salvation and
therefore I won't do so. I also don't speculate as to the salvation
of homosexuals, except to say that I certainly don't believe that
homosexuality guarantees eternal damnation, or any such rot that is
frequently attributed to Christians, conservatives, or both.
Matthew L Miller
: through this whole discussion and read everything I've posted and see
: that it is nothing like the characterization you have made above.
:
: Moralistic? I think you mean "moralizing," but either way, it's not
: true. I have not condemned, punished, threatened, harassed, bashed,
: beat, forced or impugned anybody.
For your edification, Joe, and to discourage you from engaging in such
pathetic attempts at pedantry in the future, I present the following
definition from the Webster's ninth new collegiate dictionary (1986);
Moralistic (adj.) 1: Characterized by or expressive of a concern with
morality. 2: Characterized by or expressive of a narrow and conventional
moral attitude.
I will let the regular readers of your posts on this newsgroup judge for
themselves whether or not this adjective applies to you or not...
--
STANDARD DISCLAIMERS APPLY
Holger
virtu...@halcyon.com (Virtualoso) wrote:
->In article <58762c$b...@camel2.mindspring.com>, jw43...@atl.mindspring.com
->(Holger) wrote:
->> You just can not take The Old Testament literally. There are many,
->> many things that just wouldn't make sense that way. In Genisis, for
->> instance, what was the length of "the first day"? Was it 24 hours?
->> How could it be if the earth was not revolving and orbiting the sun?
->> It's a parable. It has to be.
->I don't really want to get into some of the scope in the thread, but this
->one item caught my eye, just as an interesting mental exercise in logic if
->nothing else.
->Just think: the "first day" very well could have been 24 hours. Don't need
->a sun or orbit for that. And, perhaps, that's the model that the sun and
->orbit were designed for afterwards. No conflict.
->So, no, it doesn't necessarily have to be only a parable. Not on that
->count, at least.
->This isn't to disagree that the Bible demands a much deeper resolve among
->what otherwise are about as apparent contradictions or paradoxes as it can
->get. Especially when combining the Old and New Testaments, quite aside
->from any more theological preferences or biases. I don't automatically
->presume that the difficulty of reaching congruence itself means that there
->isn't any. Quite the opposite. I think that's exactly what demands and
->even suggests the more challenging effort, whether one "believes" any
->particular concept or not.
->I also agree that you point out a very key aspect, which is that the folks
->at the time had their own "world outlook" and comprehension contexts that
->were very different than our own. Not to mention that the documents have
->travelled through so many languages and tinkerings for so long.
Hi Virtualaso. I like your comments. However, you say, "just a
parable", as if you seem to think that a parable is not a good thing.
Is that true, and, if so, why? How else could the creation of the
universe and earth be explained except by a parable? If God explained
it in books with all the detaiils the books would be so many that no
one could ever read them.
->But, please excuse my aside here. It's part of the thread, if a tiny
->footnote at best. Don't mean to unduly impose nor sidetrack improperly.
Joe M. Turner
Okay, we've now sunk to dictionary copying. Fine. Like I said, it
doesn't matter either way which word you used. When a person posts an
opinion about sexual conduct that is unacceptable to some other
person, they are frequently accused of "moralizing." Congratulations
on using a less tired adjective and on having at least a slightly
larger vocabulary than some of the other people who typically engage
in such nonsense.
I'd still like to know what I have written about the topic at hand --
namely, whether homosexuality may or may not be permanent -- that you
found so upsetting in the first place. We've both expressed our
opinions on the question. You and others have also expressed your
opinion of my opinion. Fine.
I also noted the similarity between the way the original post was
presented and similar exchanges that I have seen occur elsewhere --
that is, that as soon as someone presents an opinion that differs from
yours, they are almost immediately labeled bigots and the thread goes
from being a discussion of the question at hand to being a petty
flamewar. You were unhappy that I noted this similarity, but you are
net-savvy enough to see that the results in this thread so far
certainly exhibit many of the same characteristics that trolling
produces -- get in, stir up, and get out. In spite of that
observation, you will remember, I still answered the question.
Others, however, went off into "All who think homosexuality may not be
immutable are gaybashers" territory. How impressively tolerant and
open-minded they are...
Matthew DeLuca
Joe M. Turner wrote:
>
> On 5 Dec 1996 15:59:44 -0500, lib...@curly.cc.emory.edu (Matthew L
> Miller) wrote:
> > I find it sadly predictable that moralistic christians like yourself often
> > cry "victim" when their selfish motives are exposed. Yes, we know, you're
> > just trying to help us get saved...it's for our own good, right? If you
> > don't understand why that's offensive, I can't do nothin' for you.
> Oh give me a break, Matt. Anyone reading this can easily go back
> through this whole discussion and read everything I've posted and see
> that it is nothing like the characterization you have made above.
> Moralistic? I think you mean "moralizing," but either way, it's not
> true. I have not condemned, punished, threatened, harassed, bashed,
> beat, forced or impugned anybody. I stated my opinions -- just as you
> have!
Joe! Haven't you been keeping up? Opinions that deviate from Matt
Miller's notion of right and wrong are clearly verboten. If you don't
believe as he does, you *must* be a racist, bigot, homophobe,
misogynist, or some other horrible person, and the mere fact that
nothing you write actually says this isn't relevant; you're just hiding
your true nature.
Matthew DeLuca
BellSouth.net
Matthew L Miller
: presented and similar exchanges that I have seen occur elsewhere --
: that is, that as soon as someone presents an opinion that differs from
: yours, they are almost immediately labeled bigots and the thread goes
: from being a discussion of the question at hand to being a petty
: flamewar. You were unhappy that I noted this similarity,
Whatever, Joe...all I know is that your response to the original post
seemed pretty silly and paranoid to me. Whether or not it was a troll is
irrelevant, you anticipated an attack when, by my judgement, none seemed
to be forthcoming. This overly-defensive reaction makes me think that you
yourself may not be comfortable about your beliefs on the "morality" of
homosexuality.
--
STANDARD DISCLAIMERS APPLY
Joe M. Turner
On 6 Dec 1996 12:46:22 -0500, lib...@curly.cc.emory.edu (Matthew L
Miller) wrote:
Overly defensive? Who's defending whom? I just said that there were
those who think homosexuality may not be unchangeable. It appears
that quite a few more people are "overly defensive" about *that*
notion, based on the number of responses that tended to disagree with
that position by flinging "you're a bigot" style responses at it.
Anyway, have a good weekend!
Wm Griffin
eu...@crl.com (Etop Udoh) wrote:
> I heard somewhere on the Net that there was some
> sort of cure for being "GAY"....
> anybody have any info on this ?????
you're a strange guy etop.. you may be referring to a drug which is
available in most drug stores called DHEA, which the medical community
has known about for more than a decade. Its a synthetic hormone, which
purports to increase libido, strengthen the immune system, and promote
general health.. look into it.. regards.. Bill Griffin , Roswell
GS-1670-09 Jeffery C Rose Mr
: *proposition* that homosexuality may not be an inherent part of an
: individual's personhood is very, *very* intolerable to those who
: preach so-called "tolerance" the loudest.
: My gay and Christian friends -- and yes, folks, I know there is
: overlap in those two sets! -- would heartily disagree with the
: proposition made by some thusfar that I am a "bigot." I love my gay
: friends and would be devastated were anything to happen to them.
: Simply because I do not feel that their sexual choices are moral does
: *NOT* in any way imply that I lose sleep worrying about what other
: people do in their own homes, as was whinily posited earlier. In case
: you have all forgotten so soon, I didn't raise the subject of
: homosexuality; this *thread* was labeled as such and I contributed an
: opinion on both the question of the thread and the typical response to
: such questions.
: I believe I am correct on the first point; others may and do disagree.
: And judging from the response to this thread so far, it is clear that
: I was correct on the second. I posted no attack on anyone, only
: suggested what would happen should someone voice an opinion that
: gayness isn't necessarily any more permanent than any other physical
: or psychological addiction. What happened? The insults started
: flowing.
Joe,
Thank you. So far in this thread you have done us Christians proud.
You have shown what it is supposedly all about. TO point out what
is morally wrong, but in a loving and gentle way. So many times we
Christians get on our high horse and run people into the ground. We
use the Bible as a weapon to destroy a person, rather than a tool to
heal. We tend to forget the mercy that was shown to us by a
wonderful and loving God and rarely pass that mercy on. Also try to
understand that this guy who is attacking is doing so probably
because he has been similarly attacked by well meaning Christians.
If it is any consolation to him these people have attacked me also.
I would ask that he read the Bible and learn what Christianity is all
about and not rely just on what he sees.
Jeff
: ... : Regards, : JMT :
jmtu...@atl.mindspring.com : http://www.atl.mindspring.com/~jmturner