ATHENA Tix sales and payment options

[Stjepan Rajko]

Hello everyone,

I would like to start a discussion on ticket payment options for ATHENA Tix.  What are the different ways you would like to see ATHENA Tix process ticket purchases?  For the moment, it might be best to focus on the choices for a payment mechanism (e.g., credit card, paypal, SMS, coupons, rewards, cash, check), and the sales portal (e.g., website, mobile phone app, telephone, box office).

It would be helpful to prioritize your suggestions so that the first version can focus on the most important alternatives.  Some of the things to consider are fees/costs incurred, ease of implementation, speed of payment to the seller, and customer preference, so if you have any experience with a particular payment mechanism, please share.

Looking at the output from the planning session to get us started, here are some things that might relate to payment options:

From wishlist requirements (http://athena.fracturedatlas.org/tix/node/58):

Mobile / Small Device

Multiple Discount Codes

Speedy Payment

Support for Telephone Sales

Payment from Any Source

iPhone/Blackberry support

Box office sales

From wishlist ranking (http://athena.fracturedatlas.org/tix/node/59):

Feature	Green	Yellow	Red
Work well with on-site purchases	5	1
Tracking discount codes and where they come from	6	6
Gifts and gift cards	3	4	7
Mobile/API Functionality	5	1	1
Ability to accept all forms of payment (cc's, debit, ATM card, PayPal, e-check, ING withdrawal, cash)	4	9
Rewards program within and across orgs	2	10

Best,

Stjepan

[Adam Huttler]

Thanks for kicking this off, Stjepan!

I’m wondering, specifically, how important payment options other than credit card and cash need to be supported. Isn’t anything else an edge case?

 

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[Justin Karr]

At the very least, I think we should consider support for third-party payment systems like Google Check-out and Paypal.  I also imagine Gift Cards (aka vouchers) to be item of interest, if not for the first release.

 

I like:

1. Credit Cards

2. Cash

3. Third-Party Systems

  3a. Google Check-Out

  3b. Paypal

  3c. A TBD mobile payment system

4. Vouchers (or abstract tickets, let's say)

 

In terms of interfaces, way, way out in front is a consumer-facing web sales interface.  After that in close succession I would rank a box office interface and a more generic (and perhaps transaction-limited) customer service interface.

 

1. Consumer-facing Web Interface

2. Box Office-facing Interface

3. Administrative-facing Interface

 

Stejpan also mentions coupons, which while not a method of payment individually need to be something which transactions can accommodate.  At the very least, there should be some ability to accommodate promotional codes.

 

Justin

[Dan Taraborrelli]

I would definitely include Gift Certificates/Cards in the primary payment method boat.  PayPal is a great payment option and many large companies, like eBay and Best Buy, are already using it for online commerce transactions.  

Coupons are also an interesting possibility but in my experience they tend to wreak havoc with accounting.  (For example, $10 off an order that contains 3 different productions). I would love to have a good system for implementing them.

Reward cards are tricky and I think they're best suited for places where one customer might have multiple transactions in a year.  Now if you could somehow offer a rewards program across all sites using Athena, well then you might have something.

I like the idea of a mobile phone app or mobile-friendly site.  There's a big market there that, in general, performing arts organizations have yet to tap. That may have something to do with the average age of arts patrons but on the whole the world is certainly moving in that direction.

~Dan

On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 2:06 PM, Adam Huttler <adam.h...@fracturedatlas.org> wrote:

Thanks for kicking this off, Stjepan!

I’m wondering, specifically, how important payment options other than credit card and cash need to be supported. Isn’t anything else an edge case?

 

From: athena-ti...@googlegroups.com [mailto:athena-ti...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Stjepan Rajko
Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 1:51 PM
To: athena-ti...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [athena-tix-planning] ATHENA Tix sales and payment options

 

Hello everyone,

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[Tim Thomas]

I'd also suggest keeping PayPal high on the list. Their biggest advantage is that you can hand off to their secure servers (authorize.net also has this setup, Google Checkout needs an SSL cert). 

This means that you would be able to install Athena without your own SSL cert and without needing to store any credit card data (even temporarily). I think the value of that can't be overstated when talking about non-tech savvy companies.

-tim

[Adam Huttler]

Two very good points.

 

From: athena-ti...@googlegroups.com [mailto:athena-ti...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Tim Thomas

Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 3:06 PM
To: athena-ti...@googlegroups.com

[Ryan Price]

A local theatre here has a "you pick three" season pass - like season pass lite - instead of getting all the shows, you are allowed to purchase 3 vouchers for off-night performances (like opening weekend, previews, matinee, weeknights) as a package.

This to me suggests you'd need "credits", "points" or some other sort of meta-ticket.

I'm sure at some point priorities need to be made about what makes it into the "core" Athena and what are considered add-ons.

Another situation I know of is for a festival where I volunteer. Volunteer hours will give you "bucks". Four of these "bucks" get you a seat to any show, but only 10% of seats are reserved for a combined set of "bucks", VIP-passes and the comp list. Currently, they just tell the ticketing system to print out all 10% of the tickets as complimentary, and the "bucks" are transacted in person. So, there is an analog hole in their system.

It makes it better for the volunteers, because they can trade bucks or use them to let a friend into a show, etc. without having to give out a password or other electronic means of transfer.

My second point here is that the vouchers or points may need to be transferrable or gift-able.

If neither of these features get implemented right away, that's fine, but now they are documented on the message board archives.

Peace,

Ryan Price

rpr...@ryanpricemedia.com

@liberatr

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[Joe Winter]

Would it be possible to build some type of generic/customizable type of discount offer into the system? There are probably a million types of offers that can be made. Multi-passes, multi-passes that are only good for certain weeknights, package deals with restaurants, group discounts, 2 for 1 (or, my favorite, 4 for 2), and so on.

Could discounts and other special offers be reduced to the point that the system can be more agnostic about what can be offered?

Joe

[Justin Karr]

I think I see a workflow forming here.

1. Patron purchases something.
(Might be a ticket to a specific show, might be a voucher for any one
show. Might be a set of vouchers for multiple shows. Also purchasing
might also just be "is given" depending on the circumstances.)

2a. Patron uses this something to get a ticket.
(If the that something is a ticket to begin with steps 1 and 2 happen
at the same time.)

2b. Patron uses this something AND something else to get a ticket.
(So, if we have a coupon, the patron uses the coupon and a something
to get the ticket.)

3. Patron uses the ticket to see a show.

4. The show is credited a pre-arranged portion of the something's
value as revenue for the ticket.
(This portion could be a fixed amount or a percentage.)

The something could even be used for purchases that did not involve
only tickets such as the restaurant offer.

This separates the question of how we price and market tickets from
the question of how we charge for them.

Charging for them takes place in Step 0
0. Company gives patron something in exchange for money.

Justin

> > *From:* athena-ti...@googlegroups.com [
> > mailto:athena-ti...@googlegroups.com<athena-tix-planning@googlegroup s.com>
> > ] *On Behalf Of *Tim Thomas
> > *Sent:* Monday, March 15, 2010 3:06 PM
>
> > *To:* athena-ti...@googlegroups.com
> > *Subject:* Re: [athena-tix-planning] ATHENA Tix sales and payment options

> > *From:* athena-ti...@googlegroups.com [mailto:
> > athena-ti...@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Stjepan Rajko
> > *Sent:* Monday, March 15, 2010 1:51 PM
> > *To:* athena-ti...@googlegroups.com
> > *Subject:* [athena-tix-planning] ATHENA Tix sales and payment options

>
> > Hello everyone,
>
> > I would like to start a discussion on ticket payment options for ATHENA
> > Tix.  What are the different ways you would like to see ATHENA Tix process
> > ticket purchases?  For the moment, it might be best to focus on the choices
> > for a payment mechanism (e.g., credit card, paypal, SMS, coupons, rewards,
> > cash, check), and the sales portal (e.g., website, mobile phone app,
> > telephone, box office).
>
> > It would be helpful to prioritize your suggestions so that the first
> > version can focus on the most important alternatives.  Some of the things to
> > consider are fees/costs incurred, ease of implementation, speed of payment
> > to the seller, and customer preference, so if you have any experience with a
> > particular payment mechanism, please share.
>
> > Looking at the output from the planning session to get us started, here are
> > some things that might relate to payment options:
>
> > From wishlist requirements (http://athena.fracturedatlas.org/tix/node/58):
>
> > Mobile / Small Device
>
> > Multiple Discount Codes
>
> > Speedy Payment
>
> > Support for Telephone Sales
>
> > Payment from Any Source
>
> > iPhone/Blackberry support
>
> > Box office sales
>
> > From wishlist ranking (http://athena.fracturedatlas.org/tix/node/59):

> > *Feature*
> > *Green*
> > *Yellow*
> > *Red*

> > To unsubscribe, email: athena-tix-plan...@googlegroups.com<athena-tix-planning%2Bunsu bsc...@googlegroups.com>

> > For more, visit:http://groups.google.com/group/athena-tix-planning?hl=en
> > --
> > Visit:http://athena.fracturedatlas.org/tix
>
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> > For more, visit:http://groups.google.com/group/athena-tix-planning?hl=en
>
> > --
> > Visit:http://athena.fracturedatlas.org/tix
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>
> > --
> > Visit:http://athena.fracturedatlas.org/tix
>
> > You received this email because you are subscribed to the "ATHENA Tix
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>
> > --
>
> > Visit:http://athena.fracturedatlas.org/tix
>
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[Justin Karr]

Folks,

I've tried to distill our transactions discussion in a page on the
website. I also consider the discussion from the community design
session. Please take a look and tell me what you think.

http://athena.fracturedatlas.org/tix/node/246

Many thanks,

Justin

On Mar 15, 6:02 pm, Justin Karr <justin.k...@fracturedatlas.org>
wrote:

> ...
>
> read more »

[Stjepan Rajko]

Wow, that's a great summary - thanks Justin!

I have one question on Credit Card payments (1st priority) vs. PayPal payments (3rd priority).  As PayPal includes the option of using a credit card, and can also be used to process phone/on-site purchases via Virtual Terminal (https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=xpt/cps/merchant/VTPricing-outside), even in conjunction with a card reader (https://www.paypal.com/vtswipe), would it make sense to tackle PayPal first, and then consider other credit card processing methods later?

I am not familiar with the advantages/disadvantages of other credit card processing methods, so I am just curious.

Best,

Stjepan

[Adam Huttler]

The problem with Paypal, IMO, is that you have to direct your customers to a third-party payment site at the moment of purchase. With a merchant account and, e.g., Authorize.net, it can be a much more seamless experience. I think a lot of vendors prefer that, but maybe other people care less than I do.

 

From: athena-ti...@googlegroups.com [mailto:athena-ti...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Stjepan Rajko

Sent: Friday, March 19, 2010 1:03 PM
To: athena-ti...@googlegroups.com

To unsubscribe from this group, send email to athena-tix-planning+unsubscribegooglegroups.com or reply to this email with the words "REMOVE ME" as the subject.

[Aaron Bauman]

The overhead involved in a seamless user checkout experience can be cost prohibitive for a small organization.

After SSL certificate, payment gateway, and any additional transaction fees,

a seamless integration can actually cost more money than the organization brings in through the web.

At that point, Paypal begins to look very appealing for an organization with low volume, 

and is indeed one of the only options if the organization doesn't have a merchant account.

Offering Paypal checkout would lower a significant barrier to entry,

and I think it's an important goal for an initial release.

/////////////////////////////////////////////
Aaron Bauman
Developer
Message Agency
1533 South Street, Floor One
Philadelphia, PA 19146
p :: 215.546.6496
f  :: 215.827.5140
e :: aa...@messageagency.com
w :: http://www.messageagency.com

On Fri, Mar 19, 2010 at 1:22 PM, Adam Huttler <adam.h...@fracturedatlas.org> wrote:

The problem with Paypal, IMO, is that you have to direct your customers to a third-party payment site at the moment of purchase. With a merchant account and, e.g., Authorize.net, it can be a much more seamless experience. I think a lot of vendors prefer that, but maybe other people care less than I do.

 

From: athena-ti...@googlegroups.com [mailto:athena-ti...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Stjepan Rajko
Sent: Friday, March 19, 2010 1:03 PM

To: athena-ti...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [athena-tix-planning] Re: ATHENA Tix sales and payment options

To unsubscribe from this group, send email to athena-tix-planning+unsubscribegooglegroups.com or reply to this email with the words "REMOVE ME" as the subject.

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[Ron Evans]

I also like paypal as an option for perceived security in the checkout system -- if it is a new system to a user, giving a paypal option where they know that some security checks are already in place with their trust in paypal could be really helpful.

Ron

Ron Evans, Principal
Groupofminds.com -- arts technology planning and audience engagement
Web: http://www.groupofminds.com | Phone: 408-646-9543
Service Requests: con...@groupofminds.com

Read our latest post: "Your arts message: Some examples of great marketing messages by for-profit companies"
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[Stjepan Rajko]

With the PayPal Website Payments Pro service, it looks like you can take credit card payments without taking the customer to PayPal's site (https://merchant.paypal.com/cgi-bin/marketingweb?cmd=_render-content&content_ID=merchant/wp_pro - "How It Works" tab has a good overview).  Also, it looks like the Website Payments Pro service includes the Virtual Terminal service.

I'm not sure how overall fees and complexity compare to Authorize.net.

Best,

Stjepan

On Fri, Mar 19, 2010 at 10:22 AM, Adam Huttler <adam.h...@fracturedatlas.org> wrote:

The problem with Paypal, IMO, is that you have to direct your customers to a third-party payment site at the moment of purchase. With a merchant account and, e.g., Authorize.net, it can be a much more seamless experience. I think a lot of vendors prefer that, but maybe other people care less than I do.

 

From: athena-ti...@googlegroups.com [mailto:athena-ti...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Stjepan Rajko
Sent: Friday, March 19, 2010 1:03 PM

To: athena-ti...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [athena-tix-planning] Re: ATHENA Tix sales and payment options

To unsubscribe from this group, send email to athena-tix-planning+unsubscribegooglegroups.com or reply to this email with the words "REMOVE ME" as the subject.

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[Christopher Ashworth]

I'm woefully behind on the discussion, and want try to catch up to
contribute properly, but I'll just drop in one thought in the meantime:

I'm pretty sure the burden of PayPal's Payments Pro service is that
you become responsible for PCI compliance in storing and manipulating
credit card numbers, which, as I understand it, can be pretty thorny.
While directing customers to the PayPal site loses you the cohesive
brand experience, it let's PayPal become responsible for compliance.

This is something I've been bonking my head against in my company,
because I really don't want to be responsible for compliance, but I
really DO want to have a cohesive purchasing experience. In our case
we will be using Braintree, which gives us the best of both worlds.
(Basically, they let us manipulate tokens which represent the credit
card numbers which they store and safeguard in their servers. That
way we can do everything on our site, and behave as if we stored
credit cards, but not actually store the credit cards.) There may be
other companies out there that offer a similar service.

As much as I sometimes hate PayPal, and dislike that it redirects my
customers to their site, I have to admit that they have been a good
initial tool for us, because they're so easy, so relatively cheap, and
so commonplace. Depending on the venue, those considerations may win
out over the brand experience in early stages of their organization.

Anyway, will try to catch up on the recent conversation before writing
more.

Best,
Chris

[Aaron Bauman]

According to the TOS of Web Payments Pro, any impelmentation also must provide an "express checkout" method - ie. a button to leave the site and go to PayPal anyway.

see the note on this page:

https://cms.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/?&cmd=_render-content&content_ID=developer/e_howto_api_WPWebsitePaymentsPro

"If you use Website Payments Pro, you must implement both Direct Payment and Express Checkout."

Here's the fee structure ($30 / month + transaction fees):

https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_display-pro-fees-outside

/////////////////////////////////////////////
Aaron Bauman
Developer
Message Agency
1533 South Street, Floor One
Philadelphia, PA 19146
p :: 215.546.6496
f  :: 215.827.5140
e :: aa...@messageagency.com
w :: http://www.messageagency.com

[Adam Huttler]

Braintree rocks, yeah.

PCI compliance isn't *that* horrible, but I get that it's a real barrier
for the little guy, especially when he's not all that technically savvy.
However, my assumption is that a lot of those folks may end up using our
hosted service anyway, in which case the PCI compliance becomes our
responsibility.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: athena-ti...@googlegroups.com [mailto:athena-tix-
> plan...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Christopher Ashworth
> Sent: Friday, March 19, 2010 2:56 PM
> To: athena-ti...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: [athena-tix-planning] Re: ATHENA Tix sales and payment
> options
>

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> planning?hl=en
>

[Christopher Ashworth]

On Mar 15, 2010, at 3:05 PM, Tim Thomas wrote:

> I'd also suggest keeping PayPal high on the list. Their biggest
> advantage is that you can hand off to their secure servers
> (authorize.net also has this setup, Google Checkout needs an SSL
> cert).
>
> This means that you would be able to install Athena without your own
> SSL cert and without needing to store any credit card data (even
> temporarily). I think the value of that can't be overstated when
> talking about non-tech savvy companies.

Oops--I see Tim already made the point I just made. Sorry for the
dupe, there.

On Mar 17, 2010, at 11:41 AM, Justin Karr wrote:
>
> I've tried to distill our transactions discussion in a page on the
> website. I also consider the discussion from the community design
> session. Please take a look and tell me what you think.
>
> http://athena.fracturedatlas.org/tix/node/246

Lots of good stuff here. One question: are discounts, coupons,
credits, and the like really methods of payment? Aren't they a
mechanism to market, package, or price discriminate a patron toward
the moment when money actually changes hands?

If so, maybe the list has two categories mixed together? Something
like:

Payment Mechanisms

1. Credit Cards (Authorize.net / etc)
2. Cash
3. PayPal / Google Checkout / etc.
4. SMS / Mobile payment
5. Check
6. E-Check

Sales Models

1. ???
...
...
N. Gift card / Vouchers
N+1. Coupons
N+2. Credits / Volunteer Bucks
N+3. Guaranteed IOU
...
...

Not sure. Just throwing it out there.

Cheers,
Chris

[Justin Karr]

I'll buy that. I think Chris is right.

Really we are talking about two things here:

1. Methods of Payment - how money comes into the system
2. Methods of Purchase - how money gets turned into tickets

However, I think a weakness of the systems I have worked with is that many
such methods of purchase are implemented as add-ons and are kludgy as a
result.

I still like the idea that:

1. Money buys "something", and;
2. That "something" is then traded a ticket.

It adds a layer of complexity to transaction, but that complexity can be
hidden when all a given setup needs to do is classic ticket sales. If you
need to introduce gift cards, packages, discounts, etc., then you've
already got the framework in place.

Justin

-----Original Message-----
From: athena-ti...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:athena-ti...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Christopher
Ashworth
Sent: Friday, March 19, 2010 3:42 PM
To: athena-ti...@googlegroups.com

Payment Mechanisms

Sales Models

Cheers,
Chris

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