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Neither atheism nor theism lead to immorality. And immorality does
not lead to either one.
What we seek as humans is a way to understand immorality and to find a
"cure" for it.
Atheism and Christianity both offer answers.
We come to Atheism through our study and research and
decisions about not just the Christian religion, but religion in
general.
If you want to believe your mythology because someone
reportedly ate an apple at some unrecorded time in history,
well that's your decision.
What is abundantly clear to me from the statistics offered is
that the morality of the religious is a major cause of crime
and incarceration in our penal institutions.
Neither atheism nor theism lead to immorality. And immorality does
not lead to either one.
According to my belief system, eating a piece of fruit brought
immorality into the human race. You may disagree about where it came
from but there is little doubt that immorality exists in many forms in
this world.
What we seek as humans is a way to understand immorality and to find a
"cure" for it.
Atheism and Christianity both offer answers.
I think this might be the author's main point - that atheism offers a
different view of immorality and that for some people, that alternate
view is what makes unbelief more attractive to them (rather than the
claim that logic and reason is driving the lack of belief).
I think that is probably true for some atheists but definitely not
all.
On May 6, 5:46 am, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, May 6, 2012 at 2:58 AM, friend...@yahoo.com <friend...@yahoo.com>wrote:
>That's true in terms of the label "atheist". But there has to be a
>
>
> <snipped>
>
> > What we seek as humans is a way to understand immorality and to find a
> > "cure" for it.
>
> An insightful and true statement.
>
>
>
> > Atheism and Christianity both offer answers.
>
> Here's where I disagree. Atheism cannot and does not offer answers to
> immortality.
>
> It's simply a descriptor which differentiates those who don't believe from
> those who do believe. Nothing more.
>
belief system or perhaps a world view that allows a person to accept
that position of lack in belief in gods.
And it is that common world
view or belief system that I refer to.
It is correct to say that atheism has no "position" on morality.
But... that in itself IS a position. It is taking the position that
decisions about morality are up to the individual.
On May 6, 12:08 am, Ian Betts <ianbett...@gmail.com> wrote:
> You say Atheism offer a form of morality that is not bible mortality, but
> atheists do not follow a creed so it a human idea of right and wrong,
>
Paul said that humans that do not know the "law" (the Mosaic Law)
still have the law in their hearts,
The problem is that whether it is the Mosaic law or the law in our
hearts, we can never seem to live up to it. So we (Christians and
atheists) look for a way to explain why we are not living up to our
own understanding of right and wrong - we keep asking ourselves why do
I (or why do others) do wrong.
The Christian answer is often a bit like old Flip Wilson bit - "the
devil made me do it!" (If you're to young to remember that...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SLifea3NHQ
While the atheist response is usually to re-define what is immoral -
"who is to say that what I am doing is wrong".
> > atheism-vs-christianity@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > atheism-vs-christianity+unsub...@googlegroups.com.
On May 6, 4:30 pm, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, May 6, 2012 at 7:17 PM, friend...@yahoo.com <friend...@yahoo.com>wrote:
>You can cal it something else, or you can call it nothing, but there
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On May 6, 5:46 am, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On Sun, May 6, 2012 at 2:58 AM, friend...@yahoo.com <friend...@yahoo.com
> > >wrote:
>
> > > <snipped>
>
> > > > What we seek as humans is a way to understand immorality and to find a
> > > > "cure" for it.
>
> > > An insightful and true statement.
>
> > > > Atheism and Christianity both offer answers.
>
> > > Here's where I disagree. Atheism cannot and does not offer answers to
> > > immortality.
>
> > > It's simply a descriptor which differentiates those who don't believe
> > from
> > > those who do believe. Nothing more.
>
> > That's true in terms of the label "atheist". But there has to be a
> > belief system or perhaps a world view that allows a person to accept
> > that position of lack in belief in gods.
>
> Not at all. It's the default. People either believe or don't believe. There
> is no atheist belief system.
is a systematic approach that leads to this lack of belief. That's
why they write books about it.
Those are just "denominations" or "sects" in the atheist world ;-\
>
> Non-believers have other belief systems like being FreeThinkers or
> Humanists or nothing or something else.
>
Haha - same with Christians!
> None of those belief systems are exclusively atheist even though most of
> those who follow those beliefs are.
>
> And it is that common world
>
> > view or belief system that I refer to.
>
> The only thing atheists have in common is that we have no god beliefs.
>
> We can and do argue about everything else under the sun. Not having god
> beliefs doesn't mean that we agree on anything else.
>
>Which is a "position" on morality.
>
> > It is correct to say that atheism has no "position" on morality.
> > But... that in itself IS a position. It is taking the position that
> > decisions about morality are up to the individual.
>
> Not at all. It is pointing out that positions on morality have nothing to
> do with not having god beliefs.
>
You can cal it something else, or you can call it nothing, but there
is a systematic approach that leads to this lack of belief.
On May 6, 4:37 pm, Neil Kelsey <neil.m.kel...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sunday, May 6, 2012 4:05:49 PM UTC-7, frie...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > On May 6, 12:08 am, Ian Betts <ianbett...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > You say Atheism offer a form of morality that is not bible mortality,
> > but
> > > atheists do not follow a creed so it a human idea of right and wrong,
>
> > Paul said that humans that do not know the "law" (the Mosaic Law)
> > still have the law in their hearts,
>
> > The problem is that whether it is the Mosaic law or the law in our
> > hearts, we can never seem to live up to it. So we (Christians and
> > atheists) look for a way to explain why we are not living up to our
> > own understanding of right and wrong - we keep asking ourselves why do
> > I (or why do others) do wrong.
>
> > The Christian answer is often a bit like old Flip Wilson bit - "the
> > devil made me do it!" (If you're to young to remember that...
> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SLifea3NHQ
>
> > While the atheist response is usually to re-define what is immoral -
> > "who is to say that what I am doing is wrong".
>
> That is not the usual atheist response. Stop misrepresenting us.
>
Isn't it?
The usual exchange is between Christians and atheists. The
Christian claims the bible as a moral authority in the case of
something like sexual behavior and the atheist says that the bible has
no such authority.
> > > > atheism-vs-christianity@googlegroups.com.
> > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > > > atheism-vs-christianity+unsub...@googlegroups.com.
> > > > atheism-vs-christianity@googlegroups.com.
> > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > > > atheism-vs-christianity+unsub...@googlegroups.com.
On May 6, 5:40 pm, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, May 6, 2012 at 8:22 PM, friend...@yahoo.com <friend...@yahoo.com>wrote:
>
> <snipped>
>
> > You can cal it something else, or you can call it nothing, but there
> > is a systematic approach that leads to this lack of belief.
>
> Here's a question that I ask the irrational atheists who agree with you and
> promulgate that falsehood.
>
> Please explain what "systematic approach" I used to "come to" atheism.
>
> I was born an atheist.
> I was never indoctrinated into any religion.
> I remain an atheist.
I submit that you would not see that as your experience without having
read or heard or otherwise corroborated that systematic view of your
experience with others.
>
> *Some* atheists use a systematic approach to *reject* theism.
>
Once the idea of God is presented to an atheist, they must reject it
for one reason or another - else they cease to be an atheist.
> And no-one "comes to atheism". One is either an atheist or one *rejects
> theism* and then is an atheist because they no longer believe.
>
> --
>
> "To no form of religion is woman indebted for one impulse of freedom..."
> --Susan B. Anthony
>
> "Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit; Wisdom is not putting it in a
> fruit salad." --Brian O'Driscoll
>
> http://newatheism.blogspot.com/
>
> Freethinkers and atheists Google Group
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/FTAA?hl=en
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On May 6, 5:40 pm, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, May 6, 2012 at 8:22 PM, friend...@yahoo.com <friend...@yahoo.com>wrote:
>I submit that you would not see that as your experience without having
> <snipped>
>
> > You can cal it something else, or you can call it nothing, but there
> > is a systematic approach that leads to this lack of belief.
>
> Here's a question that I ask the irrational atheists who agree with you and
> promulgate that falsehood.
>
> Please explain what "systematic approach" I used to "come to" atheism.
>
> I was born an atheist.
> I was never indoctrinated into any religion.
> I remain an atheist.
read or heard or otherwise corroborated that systematic view of your
experience with others.
Once the idea of God is presented to an atheist, they must reject it
>
> *Some* atheists use a systematic approach to *reject* theism.
>
for one reason or another - else they cease to be an atheist.
> And no-one "comes to atheism". One is either an atheist or one *rejects
> theism* and then is an atheist because they no longer believe.
>
> --
>
> "To no form of religion is woman indebted for one impulse of freedom..."
> --Susan B. Anthony
>
> "Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit; Wisdom is not putting it in a
> fruit salad." --Brian O'Driscoll
>
> http://newatheism.blogspot.com/
>
> Freethinkers and atheists Google Group
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/FTAA?hl=en
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Atheists seem to love the description "lack of belief in gods" - that
is a fine enough description but the short version for that is
"atheist".
The point that I have been arguing in this thread is that a lack of
belief in gods is not simply the default for humans. It is a position
that is arrived at after some consideration.
I know that several
atheists disagree, but those same atheists cannot deny that they at
one time or another they considered the idea of the existence of gods
but they rejected that idea.
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> He refuses for a reason - he doesn't like the smell, or he has heard> that it is unhealthy, etc... and those reasons flow with a systematicGiven your apparent definition of "system", you'd be hard-pressed to
> view of himself ("I don't give in to peer pressure", "I don't engage
> in unhealthy habits")
find something that was NOT systemic. Thanks for trivializing your
argument. You do our work for us
I didn't say that belief in god is the default. When we think about
the "default" we tend to think of a baby or we imagine a person with
zero contact with any people that might influence their ideas about
god. But we can't really access the mind of a baby and we can't find
such an isolated person.
We do know that humans invented religion. You might be surprised that
I would say that, but yes I believe that religion is a human
invention. The question is, "why did humans invent it?"
If there is a default position, I would argue that it is a position of
inquiry or wondering. I think that we are born with a natural desire
to ask questions and try to find answers. And I personally don't see
that as atheism or theism because both atheists and theists continue
to ask questions.
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> One have to hear of the concept of gods before one can consider the
> > I know that several
> > atheists disagree, but those same atheists cannot deny that they at
> > one time or another they considered the idea of the existence of gods
> > but they rejected that idea.
>
> idea of their existence. Atheists who have never heard of such a
> concept have not considered it and are thereby unable to either accept
> or reject it.
Can you introduce me to these atheists that have never heard of god?
I can fix that :)
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They have to now - I'm asking them to :)
> And amongst the rest of us some did consider theism independently and
> rejected for many reasons thereby *remaining* atheists.
>
> And some have never bothered to or cared enough to consider theism or gods
> and just remained atheists without giving it any thought.
>
> I know that several
>
> > atheists disagree, but those same atheists cannot deny that they at
> > one time or another they considered the idea of the existence of gods
> > but they rejected that idea.
>
> And what about those implicit atheists who never rejected the idea? They
> never thought about it at all or cared.
>
They just haven't met me :) Seriously - have they never spoken with a
> I have relatives who are like that.
>
> Are they not atheists? If not, what are they?
>
Christian?
According to wikipedia the Piraha do not believe in a supreme being
> And are the Paraha not atheists?
>
but they believe in spirits and they even claim to see them (when
outsiders can't see them)
But let's assume there was an isolated person or persons that had
never had the thought occur to them that there was a creator or
anything like that. Yes, those persons would be atheists. But as
soon as they met someone and had a conversation with that person about
gods, they would lose their "atheism virginity".
So I'll acknowledge that a pure atheist virgin may exist somewhere,
but I certainly don't know any - and let's face it, this group is
populated by atheist sluts that have considered the claims of
Christianity nine ways to Sunday :)
On May 10, 9:08 am, "ranjit_math...@yahoo.com"
<ranjit_math...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On May 10, 4:20 am, Ian Betts <ianbett...@gmail.com> wrote:> > Atheist have all without exception have heard of the Theist idea of a God
>
> > > Can you introduce me to these atheists that have never heard of god?
> > > I can fix that :)
>
>
> Had the current Piraha's greatgreatgrandparents heard of such an idea?
>
> > otherwise they would just be people and not call themselves Atheists.
>
> 1) There are/were atheists who lived to adulthood and died without
> ever having heard of theism - example the Piraha, especially from a
> few generations back.
What does that matter? I doubt that those people called themselves
"atheists".
The argument I am making is that a self identified atheist has heard
about god and has decided that the evidence for the existence of a god
is insufficient and has therefore decided that there is no god. And I
am saying that is a belief system.
> 2) There are atheists who refuse to call themselves atheist on the
> basis that it is ridiculous to label oneself by what one doesn't
> believe and that even if one wanted such a label, it would have to be
> a mile long if there are a gazillion things one doesn't believe.
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On May 10, 4:24 am, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 2:04 AM, friend...@yahoo.com <friend...@yahoo.com>wrote:
That doesn't mean that internally they have never considered the> > They have to now - I'm asking them to :)
>
> Some of my relatives will simply look at you like an idiot and tell you to
> go away ;-D
existence of gods and made a decision about it.
>
> Does that mean they rejected theism or does it mean they were uninterested
> in bothering with a topic they consider absurd?
>
> What they are rejecting is your attempt to engage in the discussion.
>
>
>
> > > I have relatives who are like that.
>
> > > Are they not atheists? If not, what are they?
>
> > They just haven't met me :) Seriously - have they never spoken with a
> > Christian?
>
> See above.
>
>
>
> > > And are the Paraha not atheists?
I guess by that reasoning that participating in this group had made me
> The term simply identifies a person who isn't a theist.
>
> If theism disappeared everyone would be an atheist by default and we would
> no longer need this identifier to differentiate us.
>
> > So I'll acknowledge that a pure atheist virgin may exist somewhere,
> > but I certainly don't know any - and let's face it, this group is
> > populated by atheist sluts that have considered the claims of
> > Christianity nine ways to Sunday :)
>
> LMAO!
>
> No doubt but this group isn't the world ;-D
>
a Christian slut. I hope the atheists will still respect me in the
morning :)
On May 10, 9:08 am, "ranjit_math...@yahoo.com"
<ranjit_math...@yahoo.com> wrote:What does that matter? I doubt that those people called themselves
> On May 10, 4:20 am, Ian Betts <ianbett...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > Can you introduce me to these atheists that have never heard of god?
> > > I can fix that :)
>
> > Atheist have all without exception have heard of the Theist idea of a God
>
> Had the current Piraha's greatgreatgrandparents heard of such an idea?
>
> > otherwise they would just be people and not call themselves Atheists.
>
> 1) There are/were atheists who lived to adulthood and died without
> ever having heard of theism - example the Piraha, especially from a
> few generations back.
"atheists".
The argument I am making is that a self identified atheist has heard
about god and has decided that the evidence for the existence of a god
is insufficient and has therefore decided that there is no god. And I
am saying that is a belief system.
> 2) There are atheists who refuse to call themselves atheist on the
> basis that it is ridiculous to label oneself by what one doesn't
> believe and that even if one wanted such a label, it would have to be
> a mile long if there are a gazillion things one doesn't believe.
On May 10, 9:08 am, "ranjit_math...@yahoo.com"
<ranjit_math...@yahoo.com> wrote:What does that matter? I doubt that those people called themselves
> On May 10, 4:20 am, Ian Betts <ianbett...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > Can you introduce me to these atheists that have never heard of god?
> > > I can fix that :)
>
> > Atheist have all without exception have heard of the Theist idea of a God
>
> Had the current Piraha's greatgreatgrandparents heard of such an idea?
>
> > otherwise they would just be people and not call themselves Atheists.
>
> 1) There are/were atheists who lived to adulthood and died without
> ever having heard of theism - example the Piraha, especially from a
> few generations back.
"atheists".
The argument I am making is that a self identified atheist has heard
about god and has decided that the evidence for the existence of a god
is insufficient and has therefore decided that there is no god. And I
am saying that is a belief system.Well this is the first time in this thread you've referred to self-identified atheists. Previous to this you were only talking about atheists.That may be the case with self-identified atheists, I don't know.However, that doesn't mean that the Praha and my relatives aren't atheists since my point is that one doesn't have to self-identify as an atheist to be one.The only requirement to being an atheist is to have no god beliefs, self-identification or not because it's the default position.If you're not a theist you're an atheist.
> 2) There are atheists who refuse to call themselves atheist on the
> basis that it is ridiculous to label oneself by what one doesn't
> believe and that even if one wanted such a label, it would have to be
> a mile long if there are a gazillion things one doesn't believe.Good point Ranjit. I know some who give that argument and they've got a point.--
"To no form of religion is woman indebted for one impulse of freedom..." --Susan B. Anthony
"Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit; Wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad." --Brian O'Driscoll
http://newatheism.blogspot.com/
Freethinkers and atheists Google Group
http://groups.google.com/group/FTAA?hl=en
> 2) There are atheists who refuse to call themselves atheist on the
> basis that it is ridiculous to label oneself by what one doesn't
> believe and that even if one wanted such a label, it would have to be
> a mile long if there are a gazillion things one doesn't believe.Good point Ranjit. I know some who give that argument and they've got a point.--
"To no form of religion is woman indebted for one impulse of freedom..." --Susan B. Anthony
"Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit; Wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad." --Brian O'Driscoll
http://newatheism.blogspot.com/
Freethinkers and atheists Google Group
http://groups.google.com/group/FTAA?hl=en
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There
is a small minority of self-proclaimed atheists who are not
rationalists. Not all atheists became atheists for rational reasons.
Some call themselves atheists because they became angry at their
church or religion in general. They seem to think that calling
themselves atheists is the worst thing they could call themselves and
hope it will get their god's attention and everything will be all
right. They're the ones most likely to jump back into theism.
I am
skeptical of their positions.
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"Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit; Wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad." --Brian O'Driscoll
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"Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit; Wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad." --Brian O'Driscoll
http://newatheism.blogspot.com/
Freethinkers and atheists Google Group
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On Sat, May 12, 2012 at 6:00 PM, ranjit_...@yahoo.com <ranjit_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
On May 12, 2:09 pm, thea <thea.n...@gmail.com> wrote:... claims someone other than Jesus. Did Jesus himself say "I am king
> So Sorry, man, but haven't you heard:
> *Every knee shall bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is King of
> King and Lord of Lords.*
>
of kings and lord of lords*?
>So sorry, dame, but haven't you heard:
> No one will get out of this. We are all in this together - where we will
> say that Jesus is IT.
> thea
>
I am the generating seed of all existences. There is no being, moving
or unmoving, that can exist without me” - Krishna in the Bhagavad-Gita
10.39
Can you get out of this? Will you say that Krishna is IT?
Krishna is right for his own sake.
But you do the same thing. You are a creator of your own children.
You did it.
The woman will not be held responsible for abortion.
You men are the creators of life, because the sperm moves
of its own volition. (St. Thomas Aquinas)
Therefore, you men are responsible for the health and welfare
of YOUR offspring.
You are the same as this Krishna.
You do the same thing to make a child as he did.
You are no different.
In other words, he came to understand that man - is
the maker of his children.
thea
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.......
>
> Second, how could Saint Thomas Aquinas say anything about sperm when he
> lived long before we knew sperm exists?
>
> You're a liar, thea. A bald-faced liar.
>
>
>
> > You are the same as this Krishna.
> > You do the same thing to make a child as he did.
> > You are no different.
> > In other words, he came to understand that man - is
> > the maker of his children.
> > thea
>
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Are you for real??!! Thomas Aquinas lived in the mid-13th century and
had absolutely no knowledge of the proper workings of the human
physiology or biology. They thought disease was the product of evil
humors or god's retribution,
and mice spontaneously generated from
damp hay.
The mice and hay thing is from an old Biology book I used in college.
Work has been a bit hectic lately and while recuperating I haven't had
a chance to participate here as much as I'd like.
But please, don't leave me in suspense.
What was the cause of all those people dying on 9/11?
And I can't frakkin' wait to hear about the earthquakes. I'm gonna go
out on a limb here and assume it doesn't have a damn thing to do with
plate tectonics and fault slippage.
Steve