long time lurker, first time poster

[Bishop Zareh]

hey yall,

I'm an Austin Dev, Django, Node, HTML5, happy to help.

FYI, OWS-Dev is all into that type of git
: occup...@lists.takethesquare.net,

esp they have been cataloging similar projects here:
http://wiki.occupy.net/wiki/Main_Page/Projects#Decision_Making_Platforms

and this one: PermaBank on Github:
https://github.com/FLOSolutions/permabank

if you decide to go mobile, please do join the Austin local wiki:
http://occupyapps.pbworks.com
Would love to be able to ATEN from the comfort of my own pocket ;-)

any time, Bz

[BishopZ]

I don't know all the specifics, but I can say:

+ Robert's Rules have come up several times in conversations on occupy-dev lists and other related lists.

+ the decision process the Occupy General Assembly uses is heavily informed by Robert's 

+ several different occupy dev teams are working on an online version of the GA process

+ I don't know who those teams are exactly, and none of them are in Austin, but they likely can be contacted through the Occupy-dev list

+ the local dev teams (occupyapps) are working on Mobile apps rather than websites, but I am quite sure they would love to make an ATEN or consensus app. 

In fact, Austin is planning a 48-hour mass Code-a-thons for March & April. If we can get the resources, then Robert's could easily be the/a goal/target of the Code-a-thon (code-a-thon.org)

Seems to me that the resource that either apps or code-a-thon peeps or anyone would need is a high-level analysis of what the steps in the process are and what UI screens would be needed to lead people through them.

The major roadblock that I have heard discussed is authentication. There are lots of ways to ensure people do not "game" the system, but each have their disadvantages. For instance, any system that knows for sure that the people are people could also be used to monitor those people in ways we wouldn't want to support. Most ways of anonymizing users or shielding their identities from negative use of the software, also open up ways for people to make fake users and manipulate the results in that way. I'm sure that problem is solvable, but it's more complicated than "Login in with Facebook" ;-)  

The point that I am trying to make, is that there are so many overlapping projects happening here, that the Django Robert's is likely to pop-out very soon, the authentication problem will likely be solved, and what will be left will be the implementation details of:

+ how are people lead through the process? first time user vs. repeat customer

+ what options should they be presented with at each step? (a few as possible ;-)

+ when there is a list of things, like items to vote on or potential time exchange opportunities or whatever, how should they be ordered? Should we place time limits and order by time, or try for huge groups and order by popularity?

+ any brainstorming on how to tie this into alt currency like permabank or aten would be super-helpful.  I feel like everyone wants that to happen, but no one has really started that conversation.

in any event, hope some of that helps!

I'll ping this list again when apps or code-a-thon peeps have a meeting.  Maybe some of yall could attend, I know we have been repeatedly asking for people to come to the meeting to talk about their needs and wants.  The meetings are not just for developers.

much love & chat soon, Bz

On Tue, Jan 3, 2012 at 2:19 PM, ... <offonoff...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi there,

I saw your link to the decision making platforms. What I have really wanted for a while is a a web-app implementation of Robert's rules of order (preferably in django) for democratically based decision making through a web interface.  I am looing into the links but do you know if any of them are based on Rober't rules?

--
------------------------------------------------------
Design After Next, design technology
>> http://www.designAfterNext.com
-------------------------------------------------------

[...]

I asked about Robert's rules off list because I don't think it is on-topic for ATEN.  ATEN uses consensus where robert's rules pertain to parliamentary democracy.   (direct) Democracy may have a bad wrap in some circles, but apparently consensus is not without its own weaknesses : )

thanks,

Elliot

[HeresTomWithTheWeather]

hi bz,

thanks for the links, especially the one to permabank. as far as having aten in your pocket, it supports opentransact and there is already an sms payment app that can talk to it and it should be pretty easy to build a mobile app with opentransact support.  i wouldn't be surprised if there is a codeathon in the bay area in the next month (BACE.org/noisebridge) or so that has some intentions of doing that. ;)

i installed sneakermesh at the 10/29 meetup and 10 of us with androids chatted with each other. i've been meaning to support that project somehow but i haven't gotten around to it yet.

i tried bettermeans early last year but it didn't work out although i thought it was pretty good.

good to hear from you and let me know if there's any way i can help.

cheers,

tom

[HeresTomWithTheWeather]

i'm also very interested in talking about identity and authentication...would love to talk shop.

i'm very glad to see code-a-thon (and pbwiki) is back.

cheers,

tom

[HeresTomWithTheWeather]

hi elliot,

yes. that's what ATEN says. i was given this consensus flow chart http://www.seedsforchange.org.uk/free/consflow.pdf when i was doing due dilligence on ATEN since it is referenced in the bylaws.

i invite amanda (or rich or sheila) from ATEN to validate this claim, most importantly showing how the omission of the clarification on the minutes posted yesterday follows step 6 "implement the decision" after an email thread with 42 posts between 10/29 and the decision made on 10/16.

i've blogged saying that's what ATEN uses and over the past month have sent this document claiming this is what ATEN uses to three groups starting to use oscurrency.  it would be nice to receive an explanation from someone on the board how i didn't mislead everyone.

switzerland: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_mGDrG3l5k

cheers,

tom

[BishopZ]

Many thanks to all.  I will follow up more off-list, sorry to skirt the edges of the list topic.

I guess my thought was that while technically voting systems and exchange systems are very different from each other, there are some interesting formal and conceptual overlap.

I didn't say any of that, but specifically, I was thinking that both systems require unanimous buy-in from participants to maintain their creditability. Also that both are blurring the lines between identity and measurable influence over our world.  Both are beginning to make the notion of Class more transparent to a bewildered US populace.  

Consider for instance if banks had the same privacy settings as Facebook does. The de-centralized versions of exchange and decision making, both tug at the hegemony of social control through PR and advertising (identity) and its mechanical enforcement through currency.

It's funny to me that sometimes people still think they have done well in life because they are more talented than others.

Anyway, not to get all text-booky on it, just my .02% 

Many thanks again, Bz