Craft/Payload design
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Danny Pier
Aug 10, 2010, 1:58:05 AM8/10/10
to Astdroid
Does anyone have any particular ideas for how the payload should be
designed. From most of the similar projects I’ve seen, it’s
traditionally a styrofoam cooler, but I’m up for other suggestions.
What about padding? Rope? Anything to keep it warm since the air is
going to get down to -70 degrees Fahrenheit? Something better than
acrylic for “windows”
Let me know your thoughts and be sure to check out the latest post at
www.Astdroid.com!
-dp
designed. From most of the similar projects I’ve seen, it’s
traditionally a styrofoam cooler, but I’m up for other suggestions.
What about padding? Rope? Anything to keep it warm since the air is
going to get down to -70 degrees Fahrenheit? Something better than
acrylic for “windows”
Let me know your thoughts and be sure to check out the latest post at
www.Astdroid.com!
-dp
GodsMoon
Aug 10, 2010, 11:16:25 AM8/10/10
to Astdroid
You're link is bad. you forgot the http part
Danny Pier
Aug 10, 2010, 11:34:27 AM8/10/10
to Astdroid
Brian Davis
Aug 12, 2010, 12:56:56 AM8/12/10
to Astdroid
Seems like the styrofoam would be good as an insulator and impact
shield....possibly some packing peanuts inside to provide more impact
protection and keep the phone from shifting around in the container?
As to the -70 degrees...seems like the phone won't generate enough
heat on its own, so insulation alone won't keep it warm. Perhaps some
heaters will keep the battery warm enough - you could try those small
charcoal handwarmers which last for about 6 hours, but they may not
generate enough heat. You could also try a re-usable hand warmer like
http://tinyurl.com/38dgbkj . They tend to generate more heat, but
they're significantly heavier and only last maybe 30 minutes)...
Either way, I think you'll want to ensure that the payload is as
sealed as possible...
Let me know if I can help!
shield....possibly some packing peanuts inside to provide more impact
protection and keep the phone from shifting around in the container?
As to the -70 degrees...seems like the phone won't generate enough
heat on its own, so insulation alone won't keep it warm. Perhaps some
heaters will keep the battery warm enough - you could try those small
charcoal handwarmers which last for about 6 hours, but they may not
generate enough heat. You could also try a re-usable hand warmer like
http://tinyurl.com/38dgbkj . They tend to generate more heat, but
they're significantly heavier and only last maybe 30 minutes)...
Either way, I think you'll want to ensure that the payload is as
sealed as possible...
Let me know if I can help!
Greg Hughes
Aug 12, 2010, 1:21:26 AM8/12/10
to astd...@googlegroups.com
I was thinking about this too earlier today, and thought that the expanding
spray foam insulation you can buy over at Home Depot in cans might be a good
way to form-fit stuff into the styrofoam container, provide a lot of useful
thermal insulation and hold everything right in place. It weighs almost
nothing, too. You can use thin plastic like Glad wrap or similar material
over/around the payload items and also as a liner on the inside surfaces the
cooler, put everything in place, then spray in the foam to fill all the
gaps, remove the whole thing from the cooler and then cut the molded foam
into a few pieces in order to remove the payload parts. Then you can just
reassemble the foam puzzle with the finished payload materials and reinsert
it into the cooler before launch. That would allow you to use the hand
warmers and put them in just the right place, evenly distribute your load
and keep it exactly in place, and further protect the payload when it
reaches the ground (or gets abducted by aliens in the stratosphere). I'd
also test extensively in a deep freezer I think, especially for frost
forming on optics.
spray foam insulation you can buy over at Home Depot in cans might be a good
way to form-fit stuff into the styrofoam container, provide a lot of useful
thermal insulation and hold everything right in place. It weighs almost
nothing, too. You can use thin plastic like Glad wrap or similar material
over/around the payload items and also as a liner on the inside surfaces the
cooler, put everything in place, then spray in the foam to fill all the
gaps, remove the whole thing from the cooler and then cut the molded foam
into a few pieces in order to remove the payload parts. Then you can just
reassemble the foam puzzle with the finished payload materials and reinsert
it into the cooler before launch. That would allow you to use the hand
warmers and put them in just the right place, evenly distribute your load
and keep it exactly in place, and further protect the payload when it
reaches the ground (or gets abducted by aliens in the stratosphere). I'd
also test extensively in a deep freezer I think, especially for frost
forming on optics.
One thing to test - or to plan for - would be any water vapor and/or
condensation related to the hand warmers. Not sure what affect they can have
when they heat up water vapor wise. But I think they're a good idea. Just
get the costco megapack and use as many as are needed.
As far as windows are concerned, lack of frost forming on the inside is
critical and optical clarity is important, so I'd again seal it up as keep
it dry and use glass. It shouldn't have to be too thick so you can keep the
weight very low, or use some aircraft windscreen grade optically clear
plastic material.
For what it's worth. :)
greg
--
Greg Hughes
http://www.linkedin.com/in/greghughes
gr...@greghughes.net
(503) 766-2258
Douglas B. McKay
Aug 12, 2010, 3:39:12 PM8/12/10
to astd...@googlegroups.com
Given the weight and time requirements, the Sodium Acetate hand warmers probably wouldn't be practical. I believe the iron based warmers from Costco ("hotties" or something like that) require oxygen to operate - something you won't have much of at altitude. And if things are form fit around the phone, there wouldn't be space for air anyway. You may not be able to completely seal the container either unless you use a clear camera case or something that can handle the pressure. If it doesn't weigh too much, a nice case like that may also help with the condensation problem at -70F if you remove as much water as possible (include a desiccant pack or something maybe?). It may also help in the event of a water landing. :) Obviously audio quality would suffer, but that doesn't seem like too much of a problem...
You mentioned a "radar beacon" at one point - what were you referring to? A separate tracking device (like this Amateur Radio based unit) could be included, but I thought the idea was to keep things as simple as possible and just use the phone by itself. If you do decide to use a separate tracker, I'd be happy to lend the experience I have with them. Here are some notes on one group's past experiments with this kind of stuff.
...Doug
KD7LRJ
You mentioned a "radar beacon" at one point - what were you referring to? A separate tracking device (like this Amateur Radio based unit) could be included, but I thought the idea was to keep things as simple as possible and just use the phone by itself. If you do decide to use a separate tracker, I'd be happy to lend the experience I have with them. Here are some notes on one group's past experiments with this kind of stuff.
...Doug
KD7LRJ
Danny Pier
Aug 12, 2010, 5:52:53 PM8/12/10
to Astdroid
Awesome stuff. I think we are hitting on one issue that's a bit
tricky. How much concern is too much? Where do you risk it in favor
of keeping costs lower? How do we keep things safe and functioning
while making this as simple and reproducable as possible?
Couple things I specifically wanted to respond to:
- I spoke with a guy in Calfornia who did a similar project. He said
he used a medical grade styrofoam cooler with 1 1/2" thick walls.
I've got a pretty nice 1" thick cooler right now, but if I can find a
1 1/2" one I think I'll go with that
- Greg, I've though about spray foam insulation as well... but more
from a sealant sense... to affix the top of the cooler to the base
along with any windows. Does spray foam work in that instance? Also,
any idea how much?
- I purchased too small sheets of acrylic (like plexiglass) for the
windows. I feel like it's more difficult for something like acrylic
to frost up since it seems more insulated than glass... but I could be
wrong. I'm planning on doing double paned windows, one sheet on the
outside, one inside... should help with insulation.
- Desicating packets are a great idea. The ideal situation would be
leaving them in the payload overnight before launch, but realistically
(and battery wise) I think things are going to need to move around in
there until just about launch time. Will they still do their job?
- Doug, if I mentioned a radar beacon, I misspoke. I meant a radar
reflector, but I'm going to wait to talk with the FAA to figure out
what would best serve them. And you're right, we're trying to keep
this as simple and easy to replicate as possible. I would love
nothing more than to be able to this with just the phone and some good
payload engineering. That being said, I will have a spot
(www.findmespot.com) tracker riding along side for the first couple
flights as insurance for recovery.
I'm encouraged at the successes of other similar projects who took
much less consideration into the questions about heat, cold, and
humidty. If they've succeeded in combating these elements and we're
spending this time to think about it, there's no reason we shouldn't
be OK.
This is great stuff to think on and talk about! Thanks everyone for
your input! Keep it coming!
-dp
On Aug 12, 1:39 pm, "Douglas B. McKay" <kd7...@arrl.net> wrote:
> Given the weight and time requirements, the Sodium Acetate hand warmers
> probably wouldn't be practical. I believe the iron based warmers from Costco
> ("hotties" or something like that) require oxygen to operate - something you
> won't have much of at altitude. And if things are form fit around the phone,
> there wouldn't be space for air anyway. You may not be able to completely
> seal the container either unless you use a clear camera
> case<http://www.amazon.com/Flip-Video-AWC2T-Underwater-Generation/dp/B002O...>or
> > g...@greghughes.net
> > (503) 766-2258
>
> - Show quoted text -
tricky. How much concern is too much? Where do you risk it in favor
of keeping costs lower? How do we keep things safe and functioning
while making this as simple and reproducable as possible?
Couple things I specifically wanted to respond to:
- I spoke with a guy in Calfornia who did a similar project. He said
he used a medical grade styrofoam cooler with 1 1/2" thick walls.
I've got a pretty nice 1" thick cooler right now, but if I can find a
1 1/2" one I think I'll go with that
- Greg, I've though about spray foam insulation as well... but more
from a sealant sense... to affix the top of the cooler to the base
along with any windows. Does spray foam work in that instance? Also,
any idea how much?
- I purchased too small sheets of acrylic (like plexiglass) for the
windows. I feel like it's more difficult for something like acrylic
to frost up since it seems more insulated than glass... but I could be
wrong. I'm planning on doing double paned windows, one sheet on the
outside, one inside... should help with insulation.
- Desicating packets are a great idea. The ideal situation would be
leaving them in the payload overnight before launch, but realistically
(and battery wise) I think things are going to need to move around in
there until just about launch time. Will they still do their job?
- Doug, if I mentioned a radar beacon, I misspoke. I meant a radar
reflector, but I'm going to wait to talk with the FAA to figure out
what would best serve them. And you're right, we're trying to keep
this as simple and easy to replicate as possible. I would love
nothing more than to be able to this with just the phone and some good
payload engineering. That being said, I will have a spot
(www.findmespot.com) tracker riding along side for the first couple
flights as insurance for recovery.
I'm encouraged at the successes of other similar projects who took
much less consideration into the questions about heat, cold, and
humidty. If they've succeeded in combating these elements and we're
spending this time to think about it, there's no reason we shouldn't
be OK.
This is great stuff to think on and talk about! Thanks everyone for
your input! Keep it coming!
-dp
On Aug 12, 1:39 pm, "Douglas B. McKay" <kd7...@arrl.net> wrote:
> Given the weight and time requirements, the Sodium Acetate hand warmers
> probably wouldn't be practical. I believe the iron based warmers from Costco
> ("hotties" or something like that) require oxygen to operate - something you
> won't have much of at altitude. And if things are form fit around the phone,
> there wouldn't be space for air anyway. You may not be able to completely
> seal the container either unless you use a clear camera
> something that can handle the pressure. If it doesn't weigh too much,
> a
> nice case like that may also help with the condensation problem at -70F if
> you remove as much water as possible (include a desiccant
> pack<http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/202698-REG/Sealife_M101_Desicca...>or
> a
> nice case like that may also help with the condensation problem at -70F if
> you remove as much water as possible (include a desiccant
> something maybe?). It may also help in the event of a water landing.
> :)
> Obviously audio quality would suffer, but that doesn't seem like too much of
> a problem...
>
> You mentioned a "radar beacon" at one point - what were you referring to? A
> separate tracking device (like this Amateur Radio based
> unit<http://bear.sbszoo.com/construction/traker/RTrak/RTrak-HAB.htm>)
> :)
> Obviously audio quality would suffer, but that doesn't seem like too much of
> a problem...
>
> You mentioned a "radar beacon" at one point - what were you referring to? A
> separate tracking device (like this Amateur Radio based
> could be included, but I thought the idea was to keep things as simple as
> possible and just use the phone by itself. If you do decide to use a
> separate tracker, I'd be happy to lend the experience I have with
> them. Here<http://bear.sbszoo.com/>are some notes on one group's past
> possible and just use the phone by itself. If you do decide to use a
> separate tracker, I'd be happy to lend the experience I have with
> > (503) 766-2258
>
> > > From: Brian Davis <briantheda...@gmail.com>
> > > Reply-To: "astd...@googlegroups.com" <astd...@googlegroups.com>
> > > Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 21:56:56 -0700
> > > To: Astdroid <astd...@googlegroups.com>
> > > Subject: Astdroid Re: Craft/Payload design
>
> > > Seems like the styrofoam would be good as an insulator and impact
> > > shield....possibly some packing peanuts inside to provide more impact
> > > protection and keep the phone from shifting around in the container?
>
> > > As to the -70 degrees...seems like the phone won't generate enough
> > > heat on its own, so insulation alone won't keep it warm. Perhaps some
> > > heaters will keep the battery warm enough - you could try those small
> > > charcoal handwarmers which last for about 6 hours, but they may not
> > > generate enough heat. You could also try a re-usable hand warmer like
> > >http://tinyurl.com/38dgbkj. They tend to generate more heat, but
> > > From: Brian Davis <briantheda...@gmail.com>
> > > Reply-To: "astd...@googlegroups.com" <astd...@googlegroups.com>
> > > Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 21:56:56 -0700
> > > To: Astdroid <astd...@googlegroups.com>
> > > Subject: Astdroid Re: Craft/Payload design
>
> > > Seems like the styrofoam would be good as an insulator and impact
> > > shield....possibly some packing peanuts inside to provide more impact
> > > protection and keep the phone from shifting around in the container?
>
> > > As to the -70 degrees...seems like the phone won't generate enough
> > > heat on its own, so insulation alone won't keep it warm. Perhaps some
> > > heaters will keep the battery warm enough - you could try those small
> > > charcoal handwarmers which last for about 6 hours, but they may not
> > > generate enough heat. You could also try a re-usable hand warmer like
> > > they're significantly heavier and only last maybe 30 minutes)...
> > > Either way, I think you'll want to ensure that the payload is as
> > > sealed as possible...
>
> > > Let me know if I can help!
>
> > > On Aug 9, 11:58 pm, Danny Pier <bigonthepig...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> Does anyone have any particular ideas for how the payload should be
> > >> designed. From most of the similar projects I¹ve seen, it¹s
> > >> traditionally a styrofoam cooler, but I¹m up for other suggestions.
> > >> What about padding? Rope? Anything to keep it warm since the air is
> > >> going to get down to -70 degrees Fahrenheit? Something better than
> > >> acrylic for ³windows²
>
> > >> Let me know your thoughts and be sure to check out the latest post
> > >> atwww.Astdroid.com!
>
> > >> -dp- Hide quoted text -
> > > Either way, I think you'll want to ensure that the payload is as
> > > sealed as possible...
>
> > > Let me know if I can help!
>
> > > On Aug 9, 11:58 pm, Danny Pier <bigonthepig...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> Does anyone have any particular ideas for how the payload should be
> > >> designed. From most of the similar projects I¹ve seen, it¹s
> > >> traditionally a styrofoam cooler, but I¹m up for other suggestions.
> > >> What about padding? Rope? Anything to keep it warm since the air is
> > >> going to get down to -70 degrees Fahrenheit? Something better than
> > >> acrylic for ³windows²
>
> > >> Let me know your thoughts and be sure to check out the latest post
> > >> atwww.Astdroid.com!
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
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