[asom] Assamese-Bengali script nomenclature debate over Unicode.
kalyan & rani dutta choudhury
Dear all
I learned Russian for a year in Bombay. I could read and translate into English relevant technical publications.
Switching from Russian to English wasn't exactly a piece of cake but I managed that quite well. I also realized the Greek script is
same as as Russian. Do the Greeks complain to Russians, ''No, you can't use our script. That's ours''.
I also know Bengali well and well-read in old Bengali literature. Being a born-Assamese but speaking mostly ''Desh'' at home and with local friends, I also read whatever came my way in Assamese. I had two novels in my hand - one in Assamese and the other in Bengali - I'll pick up the one depending on who were the authors. Of course, Sheelabhadra would always win. But with my sister-in-law, wife of Sheelabhadra, it's different. She is ga-ga about Mamoni Raisom Goswami. I like the works of Assamese humorist of ''Coupling Shinga Rail''. How many of us read him?. How many of us read the works of Bhabendra Nath Saika or Homen Borgohain or Chandra Prasad Saikia or Amal Guha or his wife Anima Guha? Both the Guhas are linguists having studied at the Institute of Oriental Studies in Puney,
Language, literature and culture are evolutionery processes of long duration. George Bernard Shaw, I read in a book by him, complained that there weren't enough scripts in the English language to express his thoughts..Naom Chomsky, a renowned linguist, doesn't write anymore about languages but writes about social issues.,At close to 90, he still grapples with issues social inequities that exists today in the American society. Is there is a lesson to be learned?
Assamese language didn't start with the arrival of the MIssioneries in Assam though some would like to think so. I would hasten to add that was an important component of the Assamese language. What would've Sankardeva and Madhabdeva done? We're descendants of that lineage, I'm proud to say that. Our forefathers came to Gauripur by way of Barpeta, Chenga, Madhupur, Ghulla. .
As I wrote to Rajen Barua some months back, we shouldn't introduce emotions into an issue that has long-term consequences for the common people. So, think hard, hard and super hard about introducing a new element in Assamese. As it is, Assamese readership is dwindling fast. I asked my brother if he could have a made as a writer. He just laughed. The same would happen if you ask Dr. M(adhurja?) Bora. He's a medical doctor .He writes well in English as well as Assamese .
Kalyank
Pankaj Barah
Dear All,
Once again Lord Mani aka Manimugdha Sharma has written a bold story on a prevailing hot issue related to Assam and Assamese language, in his Times of India column. This time he has rightly picked up the Assamese-Bengali script nomenclature controversy issue over Unicode. Here is the link to the full story.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/In-the-east-a-war-of-words/articleshow/16417273.cms
We would appreciate all of your comments and support under the TOI discussion thread. For the first time, this crucial issue has been brought into focus by national media. The online discussions, and comments etc can be of great importance in near future while communicating with the Unicode consortium. I appeal all of you to come forward with your comments to prove the indigenous identify of Assamese script and hence the language.
Another update:
The new issue of Xahitya.Org (A Platform for Assamese Unicoded Literature) has been released yesterday. As per recent statistics, this portal has been accessed from over 54 countries across the globe. This issue has been beautifully edited by a recently passed out young Engineer Mr. Ishanjyoti Borah. This month's theme was unique and interesting -
"এই দেশ মোৰ দেশ"
দেশ বুলিলে আদেশ নালাগে,
মোৰ তুমৰলি তেজত তগবগাই উঠে
এহেজাৰ ৰণুৱা ঘোঁৰা
–হীৰুদা
--
Pankaj Barah
kamal deka
I would like to to make three quickcomments.
Firstly,The Assamese language will not find the way of the Dinosaurs because it has only 20 million speakers while Bengali has 120 million in terms of speakers.A language dies of many different reasons.One of the prime reasons is : when people stop speaking it.
Numbers aren't the only criterion.If you will pardon a crude American aphorism, "Garbage must be wonderful:a million flies can't be wrong!". If we focused on numbers alone, then we should all learn Mandarin Chinese: more people speak it than any other language in the world. So why aren't we learning Mandarin in preference to English?Because Mandarin has little commercial value. By the same logic of utility, a South Indian prefers English (very useful) to Hindi (slightly useful) or Mandarin (not useful).
Secondly,according to the IndianCouncil of Historical Research ( ICHR), if I am not greatly mistaken, India's classical languages are: Sanskrit, Persian and Arabic! I agree that Persian andArabic are classical languages -- for Persia and Arabia, respectively, not for India. Why English is not a classical language in India according to these esteemed ICHR, by the same token, is not clear to me.Pali/Prakrit,mark you,has no place.
Thirdly,transliteration,as pointed out by Kalyanda,( regardless of Coding System) is not as easy as we think it to be.I am reproducing a comment ad verbatim made by Harekrishna Deka in a recent Facebook discussion in this regard.
"Can there be an exact translation of a poem? There cannot be. The translator's mind meets the poet's mind in the words of the poem and he reads that mind in his own words. He transfers that reading to the language to which he translates. That is why every translation becomes a different poem not only from the original but also from each other.Look at the following translations of a single famous poem of Fernando Pessoa and note the different personalities involved in these translations subtly altering the meaning of each translated poem.
"Autopsychography"
The poet is a fake.
His faking seems so real
That he will fake the ache
Which he can really feel.
And those who read his cries
Feel in the paper tears
Not two aches that are his
But one that is not theirs.
And so in its ring
Giving the mind a game
Goes this train on a string
And the heart is its name.
—Keith Bosley
"The poet fancying eachbelief"
The poet fancying each belief
So wholly through and through
Ends by imagining the grief
He really feels is true.
And those who read what he has spelt
In the read grief feel good--
Not in the two griefs he has felt,
But one they never could.
Thus to beguile and entertain
The reason, does he start,
Upon its rails, the clockwork train
That's also called the heart.
—Roy Campbell
"Autopsychography"
"Autopsychography"
Poets are people who feign
They feign so thoroughly,
They'll even mime as pain
The pain they suffer really.
Read what a poet has said --
In the pain on the page you discern
Not the two he had, Only one they disown.
So on the circular track,
To keep the mind happy, it
Runs on, round and back --
This clockwork train called the heart
—Jonathan Griffin
"
"Self-Analysis"
The poet is a forger who
Forges so completely that
He forges even the feeling
He feels truly as pain
And those who read his poems
Feel absolutely, not his two
Separate pains, but only the
Pain that they do not feel
And thus, diverting the
Understanding, the wind-up
Train we call the heart
Runs along its track.
—George Monteiro-
Jyoti Prakash Nath
The point is that the Assamese script is represented by a abbreviation of the Bengali script to the rest of the world which is not true.
Regards
Jyoti Prakash Nath
Guwahati, Assam
>________________________________
> From: kamal deka <kjit...@gmail.com>
>To: assam...@yahoogroups.com
>Sent: Wednesday, 19 September 2012 1:30 AM
>Subject: [asom] Re: Assamese-Bengali script nomenclature debate over Unicode.
Deka, Rabin
Just wondering whether
Pankaj Barah or Wahid or Rajen Barua or someone gave 1st draft
to Manimugdha S Sharma for this TOI story :)
Please help me with following.
"Unicode
Consortium modified the character code and changed the nomenclature to
'Bengali-Assamese' script." - Manimugdha S Sharma.
From what time (month & year) to what time (month & year)
there were this 'Bengali-Assamese' script existed in Unicode?
What is his (Manimugdha S Sharma's) source for this?
"But
the Assamese delegation failed to push the case forward. As a result,
the Unicode Consortium again modified the nomenclature and mentioned
Assamese as a subscript of Bengali," Haque adds.
When (month & year) Unicode "again modified the nomenclature and mentioned Assamese as a subscript of Bengali"?
What is his (Muhammad Azizul Haque's) source for this?
From: Pankaj Barah <panka...@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2012 at 2:05 AM
Subject: [asom] Assamese-Bengali script nomenclature debate over Unicode.
To: assam...@yahoogroups.com
Dear All,
Once again Lord Mani aka Manimugdha Sharma has written a bold story on a prevailing hot issue related to Assam and Assamese language, in his Times of India column. This time he has rightly picked up the Assamese-Bengali script nomenclature  controversy issue over Unicode. Here is the link to the full story.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/In-the-east-a-war-of-words/articleshow/16417273.cms
We would appreciate all of your comments and support under the TOI
discussion thread. For the first time, this crucial issue has been
brought into focus by national media. The online discussions, and
comments etc can be of great importance in near future while
communicating with the Unicode consortium. I appeal all of you to come
forward with your comments to prove the indigenous identify of
Assamese script and hence the language.
Another update:
The new issue of Xahitya.Org (A Platform for Assamese Unicoded
Literature) has been released yesterday. As per recent statistics, this
portal has been accessed from over 54 countries across the globe. This
issue has been beautifully edited by a recently passed out young
Engineer Mr. Ishanjyoti Borah. This month's theme was unique and
interesting -
"এই দেশ মোৰ দেশ"
দেশ বুলিলে আদেশ নালাগে,
মোৰ তুমৰলি তেজত তগবগাই উ�¦ ে
এহেজাৰ ৰণুৱা ঘোঁৰা
–হীৰুদা
--
Pankaj Barah
Manimugdha Sharma
Dear Shri Deka,
Humble apologies for the delay in replying to your snide remarks on my TOI article. I was out of station and reached Delhi just this morning. I hope my mail catches you in the best of spirits.
Rest assured, neither of the three people you mentioned in your email wrote the first draft of my piece. That kind of journalism got over after the Radia Tapes controversy. Now, even fry journalists like me are extra cautious about writing our own pieces, lest we find ourselves in the midst of muck. There is a lot of apprehension among enlightened minds, both in India and abroad, about the quality of journalism being practised in India. Many people think Indian journalists are not worth their salt, this is particularly a concern among Indians living abroad, who almost every day wake up with superior reports of The Times, The Guardian, The New York Times or Washington Post. The comparison is almost immediate, as you would compare streets in Berlin to those of New Delhi. But even the press in the West has had its pitfalls, like the press in India.
As regards the sources, you can find the details here http://www.unicode.org/charts/ under the heading 'South Asian Scripts' (3rd column). Unicode has already listed those out for your perusal. I would like to request you to go through those at leisure. The people I have quoted in my article have the locus standi to comment on the issue, since they were the people who have been associated with this movement of sorts for years now.
Of course, you may choose to disagree with the article. There are many readers who write to us with their objections and different opinions. We appreciate feedback. We all want our stories to get better, so if you have anything to add to this, feel free to write to me. I am available 24/7.
I hope I could do justice to your query. Have a great morning or evening ahead.
Muntazir,
--
Manimugdha S Sharma
Khusro dariya prem ka, ulṭī vā kī dhār,
Jo utrā so ḍūb gayā, jo ḍūbā so pār
Deka, Rabin
Appreciate Muntazir for the reply and posting the link.
Yes I see "Bengali and Assamese" is listed under "South Asian Scripts" column in that link.
Referring to Muhammad Azizul Haque's say:
What nomenclature the Unicode Consortium again modified?
("Bengali and Assamese" is still there in that link).
What did he mean by "mentioned
Assamese as a subscript of Bengali"?
[
"But
the Assamese delegation failed to push the case forward. As a result,
the Unicode Consortium again modified the nomenclature and mentioned
Assamese as a subscript of Bengali," Haque adds.
When (month & year) Unicode "again modified the nomenclature and mentioned Assamese as a subscript of Bengali"?
What is his (Muhammad Azizul Haque's) source for this?
]
Thanks, -Rabin
Jyoti Prakash Nath
Now, let me clear one thing that Sir Azizul Haque didn't say like "As a result, the Unicode Consortium again modified the nomenclature and mentioned Assamese as a subscript of Bengali,". I think the again word is typed here by mistake and must not make an issue of that.
From: "Deka, Rabin" <deka....@gmail.com>
To: assam...@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, 24 September 2012 10:24 PM
kalyan & rani dutta choudhury
Dear Jyoti
rabindeka
<:
I
was present at the press conference held at Guwahati press club on 7th
August 2012. This was an initiative os a NGO names "HITAKALPA", they are
collecting signatures all around the state to send a letter to the
prime minister regarding the Assamese script issue.
:>
Can you post the letter to assamonline?
<: I think the again word is typed here by mistake and must not make an issue of that.
Ok lets get rid of "again".
Referring to Muhammad Azizul Haque's say:
What nomenclature the Unicode Consortium modified?
("Bengali and Assamese" is still there in that link http://www.unicode.org/charts/).
What did he mean by "mentioned Assamese as a subscript of Bengali"?
[
"But
the
Assamese delegation failed to push the case forward. As a result, the
Unicode Consortium modified the nomenclature and mentioned
Assamese as a subscript of Bengali," Haque adds.
When (month & year) Unicode "modified the nomenclature and mentioned Assamese as a subscript of Bengali"?
What is his (Muhammad Azizul Haque's) source for this?
]
Thanks, -Rabin
--- In assam...@yahoogroups.com, Jyoti Prakash Nath <jpnath008@...> wrote:
Now, let me clear one thing that Sir Azizul Haque didn't say like "As a result, the Unicode Consortium again modified the nomenclature and mentioned Assamese as a subscript of Bengali,". I think the again word is typed here by mistake and must not make an issue of that.
Regards
Jyoti Prakash Nath
Guwahati, Assam
From: "Deka, Rabin" <deka.rabin@...>
To: assam...@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, 24 September 2012 10:24 PM
Subject: [asom] Assamese-Bengali script nomenclature debate over Unicode.
Yes I see "Bengali and Assamese" is listed under "South Asian Scripts" column in that link.
Referring to Muhammad Azizul Haque's say:
What nomenclature the Unicode Consortium again modified?
("Bengali and Assamese" is still there in that link).
What did he mean by "mentioned Assamese as a subscript of Bengali"?
[
"But the Assamese delegation failed to push the case forward. As a result, the Unicode Consortium again modified the nomenclature and mentioned Assamese as a subscript of Bengali," Haque adds.
When (month & year) Unicode "again modified the nomenclature and mentioned Assamese as a subscript of Bengali"?
What is his (Muhammad Azizul Haque's) source for this?
]
Thanks, -Rabin
From: Manimugdha Sharma <quizzicalguy@...>
Date: Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 3:16 AM
Subject: Re: [asom] Assamese-Bengali script nomenclature debate over Unicode.
To: assam...@yahoogroups.com
Dear Shri Deka,
Humble apologies for the delay in replying to
your snide remarks on my TOI article. I was out of station and reached
Delhi just this morning. I hope my mail catches you in the best of
spirits.
Rest assured, neither of the three people you mentioned in your email
wrote the first draft of my piece. That kind of journalism got over
after the Radia Tapes controversy. Now, even fry journalists like me are
extra cautious about writing our own pieces, lest we find ourselves in
the midst of muck. There is a lot of apprehension among enlightened
minds, both in India and abroad, about the quality of journalism being
practised in India. Many people think Indian journalists are not worth
their salt, this is particularly a concern among Indians living abroad,
who almost every day wake up with superior reports of The Times, The
Guardian, The New York Times or Washington Post. The comparison is
almost immediate, as you would compare streets in Berlin to those of New
Delhi. But even the press in the West has had its pitfalls, like the
press in India.
As regards the sources, you can find the details here http://www.unicode.org/charts/
under the heading 'South Asian Scripts' (3rd column). Unicode has
already listed those out for your perusal. I would like to request you
to go through those at leisure. The people I have quoted in my article
have the locus standi to comment on the issue, since they were the
people who have been associated with this movement of sorts for years
now.
Of course, you may choose to disagree with the article. There are
many readers who write to us with their objections and different
opinions. We appreciate feedback. We all want our stories to get better,
so if you have anything to add to this, feel free to write to me. I am
available 24/7.
I hope I could do justice to your query. Have a great morning or evening ahead.
Muntazir,
kamal deka
Jyoti Prakash Nath
It is very easy to argument on mails and finding ones mistake by sitting behind the scenes.
At this time it is very important to write articles and stories about Assamese language and literature on the national and international media so that the rest of the world may know that we exist instead of giving arguments on others works. It might be worked or not but those people on the road are doing something, we must not discourage them. I know well that nothing gonna happen by giving a letter to our PM, but at least we will have some prove that we are working on the issue.
This is my humble request to all of you that if you can please write some articles, letters, stories or news or anything on the national and international media to prompt the language.
From: kalyan & rani dutta choudhury <dutta.c...@gmail.com>
To: assam...@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, 25 September 2012 11:08 PM
atul sarma
Within this millennium or in the next, Assamese language will not be one to come into global existence. It's lunatic endeavor to think that by participating in this valueless we achieve anything but self-gratification. Those of you are promoting this useless argument, ask your children what they think about it. Let us not ask others to read your intellectual affluence of writing what do you think, ask yourself what are you doing for for the language, heritage and culture of Assam.-- Mostly you are in the western world or outside Assam having no concern what the other people of Assam are doing. We understand, you have enormous talent of thinking, but all are useless hypocrisy doing nothing for anyone even your own families that you left behind. It is a disgraceful exposure of your own emptiness that you are good for nothing for anyone including yourself. Stop your senseless outburst. You pollute people at work in Assam. -- You should beg an apology!!
8100 Harrow Court Louisville, KY 40220, USA
PHONE: 502-499-7075
E-mail: acsarma@ yahoo.com
From: Jyoti Prakash Nath <jpna...@yahoo.co.in>
To: "assam...@yahoogroups.com" <assam...@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2012 1:18 AM
kalyan & rani dutta choudhury
Dear Sharma
On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 7:45 PM, atul sarma <acs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Within this millennium or in the next, Assamese language will not be one to come into global existence. It's lunatic endeavor to think that by participating in this valueless we achieve anything but self-gratification. Those of you are promoting this useless argument, ask your children what they think about it. Let us not ask others to read your intellectual affluence of writing what do you think, ask yourself what are you doing for for the language, heritage and culture of Assam.-- Mostly you are in the western world or outside Assam having no concern what the other people of Assam are doing. We understand, you have enormous talent of thinking, but all are useless hypocrisy doing nothing for anyone even your own families that you left behind. It is a disgraceful exposure of your own emptiness that you are good for nothing for anyone including yourself. Stop your senseless outburst. You pollute people at work in Assam. -- You should beg an apology!!
8100 Harrow Court   Louisville, KY 40220, USA
PHONE:Â 502-499-7075
E-mail: acsarma@ yahoo.com
From: Jyoti Prakash Nath <jpna...@yahoo.co.in>
To: "assam...@yahoogroups.com" <assam...@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2012 1:18 AM
Subject: [asom] Assamese-Bengali script nomenclature debate over Unicode.
It is very easy to argument on mails and finding ones mistake by sitting behind the scenes.
At this time it is very important to write articles and stories about Assamese language and literature on the national and international media so that the rest of the world may know that we exist instead of giving arguments on others works. It might be worked or not but those people on the road are doing something, we must not discourage them. I know well that nothing gonna happen by giving a letter to our PM, but at least we will have some prove that we are working on the issue.
This is my humble request to all of you that if you can please write some articles, letters, stories or news or anything on the national and international media to prompt the language.
Regards
Jyoti Prakash Nath
Guwahati, Assam
From: kalyan & rani dutta choudhury <dutta.c...@gmail.com>
To: assam...@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, 25 September 2012 11:08 PM
Subject: [asom] Assamese-Bengali script nomenclature debate over Unicode.
ÂDear JyotiCollecting signatures is a monumental waste of time. Secondly, giving that, of all people, to Manmohan Singh who is a no-action fellow is far worse. Far better would be to go to Nabagraha temple at night and taking a few puffs of Bhang from a communal ''Chilm'' and discussing the  marvels of ancient Indian science and religion. I hope that you're an adultÂKalyan
On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 at 10:49 PM, Jyoti Prakash Nath <jpna...@yahoo.co.in> wrote:
ÂDear All,Â
As regards the sources, you can find the details here http://www.unicode.org/charts/ under the heading 'South Asian Scripts' (3rd column). Unicode has already listed those out for your perusal. I would like to request you to go through those at leisure. The people I have quoted in my article have the locus standi to comment on the issue, since they were the people who have been associated with this movement of sorts for years now.
Of course, you may choose to disagree with the article. There are many readers who write to us with their objections and different opinions. We appreciate feedback. We all want our stories to get better, so if you have anything to add to this, feel free to write to me. I am available 24/7.
I hope I could do justice to your query. Have a great morning or evening ahead.
Muntazir,
On 21 September 2012 09:07, Deka, Rabin <deka....@gmail.com> wrote:
Just wondering whetherto Manimugdha S Sharma for this TOI story :)
Pankaj Barah or Wahid or Rajen Barua or someone gave 1st draft
Please help me with following.
"Unicode Consortium modified the character code and changed the nomenclature to 'Bengali-Assamese' script." - Manimugdha S Sharma.
From what time (month & year) to what time (month & year) there were this 'Bengali-Assamese' script existed in Unicode?
What is his (Manimugdha S Sharma's) source for this?
"But the Assamese delegation failed to push the case forward. As a result, the Unicode Consortium again modified the nomenclature and mentioned Assamese as a subscript of Bengali," Haque adds.
When (month & year) Unicode "again modified the nomenclature and mentioned Assamese as a subscript of Bengali"?
What is his (Muhammad Azizul Haque's) source for this?
From: Pankaj Barah <panka...@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2012 at 2:05 AM
Subject: [asom] Assamese-Bengali script nomenclature debate over Unicode.
To: assam...@yahoogroups.com
Dear All,
Once again Lord Mani aka Manimugdha Sharma has written a bold story on a prevailing hot issue related to Assam and Assamese language, in his Times of India column. This time he has rightly picked up the Assamese-Bengali script nomenclature ÂÂ controversy issue over Unicode. Here is the link to the full story.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/In-the-east-a-war-of-words/articleshow/16417273.cms
We would appreciate all of your comments and support under the TOI discussion thread. For the first time, this crucial issue has been brought into focus by national media. The online discussions, and comments etc can be of great importance in near future while communicating with the Unicode consortium. I appeal all of you to come forward with your comments to prove the indigenous identify of Assamese script and hence the language.
Another update:
The new issue of Xahitya.Org (A Platform for Assamese Unicoded Literature) has been released yesterday. As per recent statistics, this portal has been accessed from over 54 countries across the globe. This issue has been beautifully edited by a recently passed out young Engineer Mr. Ishanjyoti Borah. This month's theme was unique and interesting -
"এই দেশ মোৰ দেশ"
দেশ বুলিলে আদেশ নালাগে,
মোৰ তুমৰলি তেজত তগবগাই উ�¦Â ে
এহেজাৰ ৰণুৱা ঘোঁৰা
–হীৰুদা
--
Pankaj Barah
Vavani Sarmah
Can somebody tell me
- how many meaningful words we have in Assamese Language?
a. Less than 10000
b. Less than 20000
c. Less than 25000
d. More than 25000
From: kalyan & rani dutta choudhury <dutta.c...@gmail.com>
To: assam...@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 4:33 AM
Subject: [asom] Assamese-Bengali script nomenclature debate over Unicode.
Dear Sharma
Go easy on some of us. You're thinking too many thoughts together. But I get one point that Assamese isn't going to
be one of the best languages of the world. That's fine with me as long as we strive to express our fine thoughts and sentiments
progressively well in Assamese. That can happen only if we use it variously not only in literature but also in science and technology .
Kalyan.
On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 7:45 PM, atul sarma <acs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Within this millennium or in the next, Assamese language will not be one to come into global existence. It's lunatic endeavor to think that by participating in this valueless we achieve anything but self-gratification. Those of you are promoting this useless argument, ask your children what they think about it. Let us not ask others to read your intellectual affluence of writing what do you think, ask yourself what are you doing for for the language, heritage and culture of Assam.-- Mostly you are in the western world or outside Assam having no concern what the other people of Assam are doing. We understand, you have enormous talent of thinking, but all are useless hypocrisy doing nothing for anyone even your own families that you left behind. It is a disgraceful exposure of your own emptiness that you are good for nothing for anyone including yourself. Stop your senseless outburst. You pollute people at work in Assam. -- You should beg an apology!!
Dr. Atul C. Sarma
8100 Harrow Court Louisville, KY 40220, USA
PHONE: 502-499-7075
E-mail: acs...@yahoo.com
see rest - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/assamonline/message/5562
kamal deka
Once again,let me get down to brass tack by posing this question:
Of what measure is an effort in which the end-product is zero?
In what way am I wrong by raising this question in an open discussion?
Difference of opinion is an imperative in any debate.
Must I toe the same line, every time I participate in such debate?
Says who?
Why should I be ostracized if my point of view is found to be at variance with others?
If that is the case,I don't see any valid reason to discuss a topic in this forum.
DISPARITY OF OPINION DOES NOT MEAN THROWING COLD WATER ON SOMEONE'S EFFORT.
Let me reiterate that an idea can be demolished by another seminal/innovative one---not by resorting to judgemental catcalls and feeble display of reasoning.In the same breathe we should remember that exchange of ideas can be conducted only in an atmosphere of interpersonal civility.
It seems to me,this is a classic case of confusion worse confounded.
Kamaljit Deka.
Subject: [asom] Assamese-Bengali script nomenclature debate over Unicode.
On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 7:45 PM, atul sarma <acs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Within this millennium or in the next, Assamese language will not be one to come into global existence. It's lunatic endeavor to think that by participating in this valueless we achieve anything but self-gratification. Those of you are promoting this useless argument, ask your children what they think about it. Let us not ask others to read your intellectual affluence of writing what do you think, ask yourself what are you doing for for the language, heritage and culture of Assam.-- Mostly you are in the western world or outside Assam having no concern what the other people of Assam are doing. We understand, you have enormous talent of thinking, but all are useless hypocrisy doing nothing for anyone even your own families that you left behind. It is a disgraceful exposure of your own emptiness that you are good for nothing for anyone including yourself. Stop your senseless outburst. You pollute people at work in Assam. -- You should beg an apology!!
8100 Harrow Court Louisville, KY 40220, USA
PHONE: 502-499-7075
E-mail: acsarma@yahoo.com
atul sarma
Sept. 27, 2012
Dear Dutta Choudhdury:
You are exactly right hitting the focal point of our language problem. I
have been writing couple of books and serialized article for Asam Ban
for quite while in Assamese. I understand the extreme poverty in
Assamese language to write about contemporary issues related to science,
technology, business ventures, economy, healthcare, so on so forth. We
do not have vocabulary, no words to express complexity of the modern
world for our ordinary readers back in Assam. Do you believe, with such
crippling shortcomings our Assamese language will ever be a competitive
language in the linguistic world? -- What's the worth of creating a
forum of activists when we cannot create a word to enrich our
language? -- Who will care for Assamese language where there is no
materials for today or tomorrow? -- Other than endless digestion and
re-digestion historical bragging rights, could we think about doing
something constructive collectively!!
==merged 2 e-mails by moderator==
Since we are our out to the global platform experiencing quite a bit about reality, let us point out the truth about language world. Rich languages like German and French are yielding English to maintain the leadership in our modern civilization. Japanese, Chinese even Spanish gave up. Forget about other European, Asian, African and South American languages. This is reality! I experienced personally what is the value of individual language when participated in international activities such as those of ISO.
For me or anyone else, the value and status of a language in the world are measured not by how many millions or billion people speak it, how much knowledge and communication skill it radiates to mankind. To be on the global stage, a language must build treasury of knowledge, resources and documentation of data and results -- that measure its value and status.
Sarma
8100 Harrow Court Louisville, KY 40220, USA
PHONE: 502-499-7075
E-mail: acs...@yahoo.com
Subject: [asom] Assamese-Bengali script nomenclature debate over Unicode.
On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 7:45 PM, atul sarma <acs...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Within this millennium or in the next, Assamese language will not be one to come into global existence. It's lunatic endeavor to think that by participating in this valueless we achieve anything but self-gratification. Those of you are promoting this useless argument, ask your children what they think about it. Let us not ask others to read your intellectual affluence of writing what do you think, ask yourself what are you doing for for the language, heritage and culture of Assam.-- Mostly you are in the western world or outside Assam having no concern what the other people of Assam are doing. We understand, you have enormous talent of thinking, but all are useless hypocrisy doing nothing for anyone even your own families that you left behind. It is a disgraceful exposure of your own emptiness that you are good for nothing for anyone including yourself. Stop your senseless outburst. You pollute people at work in Assam. -- You should beg an apology!!
rabindeka
Friends,
My ancestors were not Assamese (not Bengali either).
But may I suggest
to discuss in this thread within "Assamese-Bengali script nomenclature
debate over Unicode".
Pankaj Barah posted the thread asking to visit TOI as well, pl do so
see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/assamonline/message/5529
Please keep Assamese language matter out, probably use separate thread.
Terminology I am using:
Unicode => Unicode, Inc
UTC => Unicode Technical Committee
Ahom people=> Native Assamese, both Dravidian & Mongoloid
The following from TOI as presented at Guwahati Press Club are incorrect.
"the Unicode
Consortium modified the nomenclature (again) and mentioned Assamese as a
subscript of Bengali," Haque adds.
Use (not use) of again makes no difference in meaning.
"We also realized that due to incorrect information submitted to the
Unicode organization by the concerned authorities, Assamese script was
defined as a subset of the Bengali script with 'waba' and 'ra' included
in the Bengali font," says Saleh.
Wahid shall disclose who were "concerned authorities"?
Stuff like what Rajen Barua talks (see from TOI ) - can these help?
Kamarupi ruled yesteryear Bengal.
So why can't they use ''ra'' and "wa" derived from Kamarupi script?
- I knew in September 2011 some Ahom people filed a petition to Unicode - these Ahom people did not reveal the petition to people of Assam (I did not see appeared in any newspaper).
- In addition to the petition, 3 individuals wrote to Unicode - all 3 are Ahom as well
- UTC reviewed all in November 2011 - these people had gotten response from Unicode.
These people shall disclose both petition and the UTC outcome to people of Assam.
Are those NGO HITAKALPA people same as above Ahom people?
If so, these people need counseling (including legal counseling) else they may very well put Hemchandra Barua crafted Assamese script to sleep - one more blow is needed.
These people are parametric-mannered
- it would not surprise should they go one more step make the final blow.
<:
I
was present at the press conference held at Guwahati press club on 7th
August 2012. This was an initiative os a NGO names "HITAKALPA", they are
collecting signatures all around the state to send a letter to the prime
minister regarding the Assamese script issue.
:>
Can you post the letter to assamonline?
<: I think the again word is typed here by mistake and must not make an issue of that.
Ok lets get rid of "again".
Referring to Muhammad Azizul Haque's say:
What nomenclature the Unicode Consortium modified?
("Bengali and Assamese" is still there in that link http://www.unicode.org/charts/).
What did he mean by "mentioned Assamese as a subscript of Bengali"?
[
"But
the
Assamese
delegation failed to push the case forward. As a result, the Unicode
Consortium modified the nomenclature and mentioned Assamese as a
subscript of Bengali," Haque adds.
When (month & year) Unicode "modified the nomenclature and mentioned Assamese as a subscript of Bengali"?
What is his (Muhammad Azizul Haque's) source for this?
]
Thanks, -Rabin
kalyan & rani dutta choudhury
Dear All
My brother Sleelabhadra once told me succintly that ''Migration and adaptation is the history of mankind''. Ambicagiri Roy Choudhury who
forefathers came to Assam (what was Assam then?) from Bengal. But he was one of the most ardent proponent of Assam's interest in all fields including Assamese. He was my wife's grandfather from
her mother's side.
Well, my brother wrote an article titled ''Abyapareshu'' after he was criticised roundly by language purist for using words that weren't
'purely' Assamese. In that he argued that language is a living entity. It grows by borrowing from others and also rejects what is no longer needed. I suspect that ''awajdo'' that you see in the back of trucks will enter the Assamese popular lingua. ''Dukan' is a Khasi word now. American English which is vibrant isn't the same thing as the British English. a Pandit is an American word now.
In this new world of the Internet and hi-tech, you've not seen the last phase development of all languages. What's the Assamese word for DNA? The same if you're not a crazy one..
So, I say keep an open mind on language
Kalyan
kamal deka
European nations, many of them very small, face the risk of losing their linguistic heritage much as we do. Even relatively large nations like France are now facing this threat as the Internet, dominated by English, charges in. There are at least two lessons that we can learn from the way these nations are responding.
First,they have not equated the process of learning English with unlearning German, Flemish or Spanish. The arts, science, and commerce classes in schools and universities are held in their own tongues, which is only natural. As such, English is learned as what it is -- a foreign language and a marketable skill.
The other lesson we can learn from the European experience is this -- to give no quarter. The French have tight laws regulating the use of languages other than French in commerce. Systematically, English is forced to play second fiddle. Apart from relying on the legal powers it holds, the French government also continually appeals to French nationalism and patriotism to garner support for the laws it enacts. "We are French, it's up to us to protect that identity" resonates across the land. Our government, on the other hand, has succumbed without a fight to the self-serving interests of the literate (and often thereby wealthy) class and mostly given up on learning in Assamese language.Non-implementation of Language Act of Assam is a glistening example.
While all humans have the ability to learn any language, they only do so if they grow up in an environment in which language exists and is used by others. Language is therefore dependent on communities of speakers in which children learn language from their elders and peers, and themselves transmit language to their own children. Due to the way in which language is transmitted between generations and within communities, language perpetually changes, diversifying into new languages or converging due to language contact Because of the increased language contact in the globalizing world many small languages are becoming endangered as their speakers shift to other languages that afford the possibility to participate in larger and more influential speech communities.
Among Assamese in Assam, it has become fashionable to say that one's child can speak English whereas ignorance and illiteracy in one's own mother tongue is tolerated. In this zeitgeist, it is hardly surprising that many Assamese children cannot read or write their own mother tongue. In order to enrich our language,we must set our own house in order first and any effort less than this will be as good as putting the cart before the horse.
Dilip Deka
You are right.Walk the talk. Otherwise, talk is cheap.Many of us have failed in this walk.
===============================
Dilip Deka
Dear Dutta Chaudhury,You are absolutely right about evolution of languages. Take some in and leave some out-that is how it goes.However, American English does not use "Pandit" but uses "Pundit" and that is important to know the nuances in a language. Yes, DNA will find its way into Assamese just like School and Station did in the past.I am so happy that you are feeling well and participating in a verbal duel with full intensity.Dilip Deka
Houston, Texas
==============================================================
--- On Sat, 9/29/12, kalyan & rani dutta choudhury <dutta.c...@gmail.com> wrote:
From: kalyan & rani dutta choudhury <dutta.c...@gmail.com>
Subject: [asom] Re: Assamese-Bengali script nomenclature debate over Unicode.
To: assam...@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, September 29, 2012, 7:52 AM
Dear All
My brother Sleelabhadra once told me succintly that ''Migration and adaptation is the history of mankind''. Ambicagiri Roy Choudhury who
forefathers came to Assam (what was Assam then?) from Bengal. But he was one of the most ardent proponent of Assam's interest in all fields including Assamese. He was my wife's grandfather from
her mother's side.
Well, my brother wrote an article titled ''Abyapareshu'' after he was criticised roundly by language purist for using words that weren't
'purely' Assamese. In that he argued that language is a living entity. It grows by borrowing from others and also rejects what is no longer needed. I suspect that ''awajdo'' that you see in the back of trucks will enter the Assamese popular lingua. ''Dukan' is a Khasi word now. American English which is vibrant isn't the same thing as the British English. a Pandit is an American word now.
In this new world of the Internet and hi-tech, you've not seen the last phase development of all languages. What's the Assamese word for DNA? The same if you're not a crazy one..
So, I say keep an open mind on language
Kalyan
kamal deka
| Country | GNP per capita ($) | Official Language | |
| Switzerland | 38,380 | German/French/Italian | |
| Denmark | 32,050 | Danish | |
| Japan | 32,030 | Japanese | |
| United States | 31,910 | English | |
| Sweden | 26,750 | Swedish | |
| Germany | 25,620 | German | |
| Austria | 25,430 | German | |
| Netherlands, The | 25,140 | Dutch | |
| Finland | 24,730 | Finnish | |
| Belgium | 24,650 | Dutch/French | |
| France | 24,170 | French | |
| United Kingdom | 23,590 | English | |
| Australia | 20,950 | English | |
| Italy | 20,170 | Italian | |
| Canada | 20,140 | English/French | |
| Israel | 16,310 | Hebrew | |
| Spain | 14,800 | Spanish | |
| Greece | 12,110 | Greek | |
| Portugal | 11,030 | Portuguese | |
| South Korea | 8,490 | Korean |
The first fact we note is that there is a wide variety of languages found in this list, dominated by European languages. The more interesting fact is that in none of the top 20 richest countries is the language of official business (and the primary medium of education at the school level) different than the native language used by the general population.
MY POINT IS SIMPLE.WHEN IT COMES TO THE QUESTION OF SURVIVABILITY AND ENRICHMENT OF ASSAMESE LANGUAGE,ITS USE MUST BE ENCOURAGED BY THE GOVERNMENT/ORGANIZATIONS/GENERAL PUBLIC--SO ON AND SO FORTH.THE ASSAMESE LANGUAGE IS NOT GOING TO KICK THE BUCKET, IF IT IS NOT ALLOTTED A SEPARATE SLOT IN THE UNICODE CONSORTIUM.IN FACT,IT MAY MEET THE FATE OF THE DINOSAURS
Manimugdha Sharma
Dear friends,
Lord Mani
98993 03108
Khusro dariya prem ka, ulṭī vā kī dhār,
Jo utrā so ḍūb gayā, jo ḍūbā so pār
kamal deka
You have hit the mark,Mani.In order to nurture and spawn our language,its use must be encouraged by one and all.That's why we have all the more reason to force the Government to implement Assam Official Language Act,1960 in letter and spirit.
People in Israel migrated from all parts of the world in the twentieth century. These people spoke many different languages, yet Israel chose Hebrew, not English as the official language--a language considered,not too long ago,as dead or classical language.
Also,I do not find any compelling reason as to why Assamese grand conclave ( Oxomiya maha abhibexon/Oxomiya mela) and Bihu function here in the USA are to be conducted in English.I believe,the use of Assamese would certainly give a far greater sense of pride and rootedness.Yet, a few flag-bearers of the same community have been trying to rend the sky asunder for not allotting Assamese a separate slot in the Unicode Consortium.Double-speak---beyond any speck of doubt.
Kamal
rabindeka
http://bytopan.blogspot.com/2012/09/unicode-support-for-assamese.html
(have few questions as well if you care to answer)
I am using same terminology as before
Unicode -> Unicode Inc
UTC -> Unicode Technical Committee
Ahom people -> people of upper Assam
<:
Suffice it to say that, due to the efforts of several people to sensitize the standards body about the issue, Unicode is beginning to make some changes in its communication to be more explicit that Assamese letters are included in the code chart, despite its name as the "Bengali" code chart. Their web-site now says "Bengali and Assamese" code-chart http://www.unicode.org/charts/ .
:>
Satyajit who were these people that led to this?
<:
For example, I am currently typing in the Roman script to write in the English language. But, since "je parle un peu francais", I have used the same Roman script to write in the French language in the previous clause. Thus, two languages (English and French) use the same script (Roman).
Unicode specifies this distinction between scripts and languages as follows. It defines a CODE CHART for a script, and, separately, it defines a LOCALE for a language that uses that code chart. Thus, Unicode standardized the Latin code-chart (to represent an extended version of what we call the Roman script), and then defined English, French, and other languages as locales that use that code chart.
:>
So a code-chart includes a script-set name.
Am I correct?
Unicode does not have a script-set called "Roman script", but it has "Latin Script".
Similarly, Unicode does not have a script-set called "Assamese Script", but it has "Bengali Script".
<:
But why did Unicode choose the same code chart for those languages? It is because 90% of the written script is the same for English, French, Dutch, German, and other related languages. Noticing this, Unicode defined the Latin code chart to include ALL letters used in writing those languages. That way it takes less number of character codes to provide coverage for all the letters used in total by all those languages. This is done due to a natural economy of encoding that computer design always strives for. Thus, it is a guiding principle that Unicode uses in all its language standards work.
:>
Good question, but answer does not sound good to me.
You might as well want to approximate % of "letters/symbols" that are duplicate, triplicate, quadruplet , … … …
You need to visit at least Latin Script and Greek Script to approximate % of duplicate and triplicate (http://www.unicode.org/charts/ or http://www.alanwood.net/unicode/coptic.html ;
included are from Cyrillic Script.
ISO Unico. Charac. Description ---- ------ ------- ----------- 0x80 0x0410 [А] [А] CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER A 0x82 0x0412 [В] [В] CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER VE 0x83 0x0413 [Г] [Г] CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER GHE 0x84 0x0414 [Д] [Д] CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER DE 0x85 0x0415 [Е] [Е] CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER IE 0x87 0x0417 [З] [З] CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER ZE 0x88 0x0418 [И] [И] CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER I 0x89 0x0419 [Й] [Й] CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER SHORT I 0x8A 0x041A [К] [К] CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER KA 0x8B 0x041B [Л] [Л] CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER EL 0x8C 0x041C [М] [М] CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER EM 0x8D 0x041D [Н] [Н] CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER EN 0x8E 0x041E [О] [О] CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER O 0x8F 0x041F [П] [П] CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER PE 0x90 0x0420 [Р] [Р] CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER ER 0x91 0x0421 [С] [С] CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER ES 0x92 0x0422 [Т] [Т] CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER TE 0x93 0x0423 [У] [У] CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER U 0x94 0x0424 [Ф] [Ф] CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER EF 0x95 0x0425 [Х] [Х] CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER HA 0x96 0x0426 [Ц] [Ц] CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER TSE 0x97 0x0427 [Ч] [Ч] CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER CHE 0x98 0x0428 [Ш] [Ш] CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER SHA 0x99 0x0429 [Щ] [Щ] CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER SHCHA 0x9A 0x042A [Ъ] [Ъ] CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER HARD SIGN 0x9B 0x042B [Ы] [Ы] CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER YERU 0x9C 0x042C [Ь] [Ь] CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER SOFT SIGN 0x9D 0x042D [Э] [Э] CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER E 0x9E 0x042E [Ю] [Ю] CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER YU 0x9F 0x042F [Я] [Я] CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER YA 0xD8 0x040E [Ў] [Ў] CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER SHORT U 0xD9 0x045E [ў] [ў] CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER SHORT U 0xDA 0x040F [Џ] [Џ] CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER DZHE 0xDB 0x045F [џ] [џ] CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER DZHE 0xDD 0x0401 [Ё] [Ё] CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER IO 0xDE 0x0451 [ё] [ё] CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER IO 0xDF 0x044F [я] [я] CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER YA 0xE0 0x0430 [а] [а] CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER A 0xE1 0x0431 [б] [б] CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER BE 0xE2 0x0432 [в] [в] CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER VE 0xE3 0x0433 [г] [г] CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER GHE 0xE4 0x0434 [д] [д] CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER DE 0xE5 0x0435 [е] [е] CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER IE 0xE6 0x0436 [ж] [ж] CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER ZHE 0xE7 0x0437 [з] [з] CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER ZE 0xE8 0x0438 [и] [и] CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER I 0xE9 0x0439 [й] [й] CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER SHORT I 0xEA 0x043A [к] [к] CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER KA 0xEB 0x043B [л] [л] CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER EL 0xEC 0x043C [м] [м] CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER EM 0xED 0x043D [н] [н] CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER EN 0xEE 0x043E [о] [о] CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER O 0xEF 0x043F [п] [п] CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER PE 0xF0 0x0440 [р] [р] CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER ER 0xF1 0x0441 [с] [с] CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER ES 0xF2 0x0442 [т] [т] CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER TE 0xF3 0x0443 [у] [у] CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER U 0xF4 0x0444 [ф] [ф] CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER EF<:
So, it should not be surprising that Unicode would apply the same principle to the Assamese and Bengali languages. The scripts used by Assamese and Bengali have some differences, but 90% of the letters used in the scripts are the same. Thus, it made sense for Unicode to define a COMMON code chart that includes ALL letters used by either Assamese or Bengali.
:>
Did Unicode apply a principle to choose "Bengali" as script name?
Or was this a mistake that UTC did in the past?
Is "Bengali" a neutral name for a script that Bangla people shares with others including Ahom people?
Is "Latin" a non-neutral name as script name?
<:
So, there was some method to how Unicode chose a common code chart for the two languages.
:>
What was the method then?
<:
But, did Unicode do everything right for the code chart for Assamese and Bengali? No, Unicode chose a poor name for the code chart. By calling it the "Bengali" code chart, they hurt the sentiment of the Assamese people due to past history of Assamese/Bengali language relations, that I do not plan to include in this technical discussion.
:>
"it is a relatively minor issue" - this is what Satyajit wrote.
<:
But, there is still an open issue about the name in the actual standard itself. The code chart specification document still calls it the "Bengali" code chart, even though the web-site lists it as the code chart for "Bengali and Assamese". Can Unicode do more to make the actual name of the code chart in the specification more inclusive of both languages?
It certainly could, but the change will cause a lot of work for all software platforms that implement the current Unicode standard. This includes Microsoft Windows, and all the Unix variants (FreeBSD, Linux, MacOS, Solaris, Android OS, iOS, to name some of them) for which software has been written to support the list of code-chart names in the Unicode standard (Latin, Arabic, Bengali, etc.). Any changes to any of those code chart names in the standard would cause software developers for all those platforms to modify existing source code and release an update that will impact billions of computers, tablets, smart-phones, and other computing devices world-wide.
So, Unicode has to carefully weigh the benefit of such a name change for input, processing, or display of Assamese characters on computing devices before making a decision. It turns out that there will be no benefit with such a name change for Assamese. That is because (1) all the character codes required to support input, processing, or displaying Assamese are already defined in the current code chart, and (2) additional language characteristics such as alphabetical order, which are language specific, are already standardized elsewhere in Unicode for Assamese. More on the additional language characteristics in the next section, but, it is important to understand that the reasons above are why the Unicode organization has not changed the name in the actual code chart, and has stopped at the step of making the web-site list it as "Bengali and Assamese".
:>
Is this an indication that some Ahom people are submissive?
| Reply via web post |
Satyajit Nath
You have a question on whether a code-chart includes a script-set name. In my study of the Unicode standards, I have not found any term called the script-set name. The code-chart itself has a name and I did find any other term or label for that name. The first word of each of the code-chart specifications is simply the name of the code-chart: Latin, Devanagari, Bengali, etc.
The only other place it is actually referred to by a term is in the locale for the Assamese language. But you said your questions were only for the script not language. So, I've not included that info here.
You also asked who the people are who sensitized the Unicode people. The answer is that there are no real names I can point to because they have not been revealed in any of my study. The Unicode forum discussions allow people to use any handle they like. For example, here is one such vigorous discussion I found which discusses the topic: http://www.unicode.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=268 but I don't know who DelexR is.
Those were the two questions about Unicode that I found in your note that I felt I had the knowledge to answer. Please let me know if I missed any other such questions about Unicode below. I looked carefully at your comments about the codes from the Cyrillic code chart and your reference to the Greek code chart, but wasn't sure that you had a question for me about it.
Thanks,
- Satyajit
rabindeka
in link - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/assamonline/message/5618
Actually, I was looking for an answer for -
who were these people that led to {Their web-site now says "Bengali and Assamese"}?
(As TOI, Assam Tribune, Guwahati Press-Club, and so on highlighted it, i.e., "Bengali and Assamese", was not found in http://www.unicode.org/charts/ before).
FYI a group of Ahom people filed a petition to Unicode last year;
a few other Ahom people wrote individually as well -
may I ask those people to disclose all including responses received from Unicode;
this may help Satyajit and other Ahom people
Some of these people are members of this Ahom forum as well,
please do not take longer than 10 days to disclose all.
<:
In my study of the Unicode standards, I have not found any term called the script-set name. The code-chart itself has a name and I did find any other term or label for that name. The first word of each of the code-chart specifications is simply the name of the code-chart: Latin, Devanagari, Bengali, etc.
Unicode uses script-name; it does not use "script" or "script-set" after any "script-name";
script (set of characters) <- this is how Unicode defines "script".
I have used "script-set" for "script (set of characters)"
and "letters/symbols" for "characters" - thought more intelligible but less technical.
Now that terminology used is understood.
The "code-chart title" is nothing but script-name -> script (set of characters).
Unicode does not have script (set of characters) called "Roman", but it has "Latin".
Similarly, Unicode does not have script (set of characters) called "Assamese", but it has "Bengali".
How Unicode names a character in a script that it encodes?
A character-name has 2 parts.
1st part is script-name and 2nd part is character-name.
How will you read both characters ৰ and ৱ?
clue {script-name character-name} i.e., both are 2 characters in the script call Bengali.
This is how it is written in http://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/U0980.pdf
<:
I looked carefully at your comments about the codes from the Cyrillic code chart and your reference to the Greek code chart, but wasn't sure that you had a question for me about it.
In Unicode, Cyrillic Latin and Greek are 3 scripts,
i.e., Cyrillic script, Latin script, and Greek script and a Unicode code-chart-title is nothing but script-name.
Now for these 3 scripts, i.e., Cyrillic Latin Greek
what are the %s of characters (letters/symbols) that are (a) duplicate and (b) triplicate but each character has separate code-point?
find duplicate %s among Cyrillic Latin; Cyrillic Greek; Latin Greek
similarly, find triplicate % among Cyrillic Latin and Greek
Calculate above %s to feel whether UTC uses uniform method;
whether UTC method used for Bengali script is neutral;
:)
Cyrillic <- Russian
Latin <- European
Greek <- Greece
Hope my explanation helps!
Satyajit Nath
If you don't mind, I would like to take a few weeks (of weekend and other free time) to review those chapters again, and then we can pick up the discussion.
Thanks,
Satyajit
Mrinal Talukdar
Since most of us use Ramdhenu font..is their any easy way to convert the
soft copies of our books typed in Ramdhenu font to unicode?
Tridip Baruah
On Mon, Oct 8, 2012 at 12:35 PM, Mrinal Talukdar <mrinal....@gmail.com> wrote:
Since most of us use Ramdhenu font..is their any easy way to convert the
soft copies of our books typed in Ramdhenu font to unicode?
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Pankaj Barah
Yes Mrinal da.
Since most of us use Ramdhenu font..is their any easy way to convert the
soft copies of our books typed in Ramdhenu font to unicode?
Satyajit Nath
work is due to efforts by folks in Tezpur University. Here is the info:
http://www.tezu.ernet.in/~nlp/g2u.htm on how to get the software.
I have spoken to Navanath Saharia at Tezpur U regarding the same. He's one
of the key contributors, and his contact info is at the link above.
Regards,
Satyajit
On Mon, Oct 8, 2012 at 12:05 AM, Mrinal Talukdar
<mrinal....@gmail.com>wrote:
> **
>
> Since most of us use Ramdhenu font..is their any easy way to convert the
> soft copies of our books typed in Ramdhenu font to unicode?
>
>
>
Binoy Bordoloi
Excellent; you all are incredible IT folks. I saw an earlier e-mail that an Assamese dictionary was in progress or may be even completed by now. If so, it would be nice if it gives the prompt to make a correction for the vowels or other "combination words" typed incorrectly. For example, I can write in Assamese. But I have the fear of spelling mistakes. (I "left" Assam in 1969, though that should not be an excuse).
By the way, I have seen a dictionary from "Brojawali" to Assamese also, compiled by Dr Kripa Bora and his elder brother.
Good luck to all
Regards
Binoy K. Bordoloi, Ph.D.
Bridgewater, NJ
On Tue, Oct 9, 2012 at 6:55 AM, Tridip Baruah <tridip...@gmail.com> wrote:
Yes! I have developed the conversion tool for converting Ramdhenu text to Unicode.
On Mon, Oct 8, 2012 at 12:35 PM, Mrinal Talukdar <mrinal....@gmail.com> wrote:
Since most of us use Ramdhenu font..is their any easy way to convert the
soft copies of our books typed in Ramdhenu font to unicode?
Tridip Baruah
My Ramdhanu to Unicode converter works with all the Ramdhnau fonts (even mixed fonts) and it supports Assamses number and embedded English number and English words. More over it retain Bold, Italic and underline formatting of the original text. Conversion process is very simple, just select and copy the Ramdhnau Text from PageMaker then convert it by a hot key and paste whenever you want to paste the unicode converted text.
regards
Tridip Baruah
Mrinal Talukdar
On 11 October 2012 01:44, Pankaj Barah <panka...@gmail.com> wrote:
Yes Satyajit da,
I forgot to mention about the Geetanjali converter by Nava. Also there is another tool developed by Pallav Saikia da. The problem I have noticed using this two programs was that, they were not able to convert numbers and juktakshars properly. I have randomly tried couple of different ASCII materials to be converted to Unicode. Another issue I have observed was , these proagms works fine if only a single ASCII font is used (say Gitanjali). But most of the publishing houses in Assam uses multiple Bengali fonts in their composition, in such cases these two programs did not work well for me. Tridip Baruah's tools was 100% perfect. Nava and Pallav da can update about it if these issues has been rectified by now.
---
Pankaj
Satyajit Nath
SInce I only knew about the Geetanjali java converter earlier that Nava Saharia and others at Tezpur University worked on, one of my wish-list items was to see how to get it offered as a web service, with a simple interface where people could upload their Ramdhenu content, and get back Unicode content in return.
I think it will be great if the Tezpur University team, Pallav, and Tridip Baruah, who have done different converters, pool their thoughts and their programs, to create a web-service (hosting it on something like AWS, or Google Compute Engine). That way, we could get a resource that all could use. It could even charge a nominal fee to users to recover costs of hosting it in AWS or Google CE. Just a thought ...
Regards,
Satyajit
rabindeka
<:
would like to take a few weeks (of weekend and other
free time) to review those chapters again, and then we can pick up the
discussion.
:>
That is a time-commitment Satyajit is making to do whole lot of readings.
It is ok to read whole lot provided you have another objective such as
(1) you want to guide <Ahom people> how to get Unicode Assamese
script or
(2) you want to tell <Bangla people> how to hold on to
Unicode Bengali script or
(3) you want to defend <UTC people> to
do nothing
None of the above are my objective. I have highlighted my observation.
Highlights of some of my past observations:
(a) Cyrillic Greek Latin scripts' nomenclatures are neutral.
(b) Unicode does not have Assamese script but it has Bengali script.
(c) <Ahom people> do not read ৰ and ৱ the way both should be red as per UTC nomenclature
(d) <UTC people> stepped in "moral conflict"
(e) <Ahom people> follows <Bangla people> on script matter
(f) <Ahom people> and <Bangla people> have common parametric-manner on script matter
Above are some of my observations
Tell me which one is incorrect :)
parametric-manner -> a manner that is inappropriate currently found but it has been repeated in the past.
"may I ask those people to disclose all including responses received from Unicode;
this may help Satyajit and other Ahom people"
17
October will pass 10-day for above. Please meet this deadline to help
Satyajit and other Ahom people - and help me save my time as well.
After 17 October I will look at ---
who were these people that led to {Their web-site now says "Bengali and Assamese"}?
Satyajit Nath
Thanks,
Satyajit
On Wed, Oct 10, 2012 at 11:01 AM, Tridip Baruah <tridip...@gmail.com>wrote:
My Ramdhanu to Unicode converter works with all the Ramdhnau fonts (even mixed fonts) and it supports Assamses number and embedded English number and English words. More over it retain Bold, Italic and underline formatting of the original text. Conversion process is very simple, just select and copy the Ramdhnau Text from PageMaker then convert it by a hot key and paste whenever you want to paste the unicode converted text.
regards
Tridip Baruah