Response to the Question, "What Is Existence?"
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Robert Mackay
Jul 8, 2010, 6:39:48 AM7/8/10
to AskPhil...@googlegroups.com
Existence is anything real or imagined that in some
way has a VALUE, positive or negative.
The word "Is" means "exists", and can also describe
things or thoughts that exist in relation to other things
that exist.
The Comparison of the substance and boundaries of
various things and thoughts that exist in relation to
each other, is precisely what describes the values
and usefulness. This is the necessary process
required to make sense of reality.
If you are questioning whether you actually DO exist,
there is a simple test: Try to hold your breath until
you die - you can't do it. No cheating - no self inflicted
wounds first, no confining yourself under water or
breathing toxic substances, and no hanging.
Existence is great - there are limitations, but the most
of it is what we make it. Be the BEST you can be at
something, and happiness will follow you around.
Ask me a HARD question.
robertmackay
way has a VALUE, positive or negative.
The word "Is" means "exists", and can also describe
things or thoughts that exist in relation to other things
that exist.
The Comparison of the substance and boundaries of
various things and thoughts that exist in relation to
each other, is precisely what describes the values
and usefulness. This is the necessary process
required to make sense of reality.
If you are questioning whether you actually DO exist,
there is a simple test: Try to hold your breath until
you die - you can't do it. No cheating - no self inflicted
wounds first, no confining yourself under water or
breathing toxic substances, and no hanging.
Existence is great - there are limitations, but the most
of it is what we make it. Be the BEST you can be at
something, and happiness will follow you around.
Ask me a HARD question.
robertmackay
Prem Das
Jul 8, 2010, 11:31:25 AM7/8/10
to robertmac...@gmail.com, askphil...@googlegroups.com
If, as you say, the determination of existence is to suspend the act of breathing until the state of death sets in,
that would then suggest all inanimate objects that neither breathe nor die simply does not exist.
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2010 06:39:48 -0400
Subject: [AskPhilosophers] Response to the Question, "What Is Existence?"
From: robertmac...@gmail.com
To: AskPhil...@googlegroups.com
that would then suggest all inanimate objects that neither breathe nor die simply does not exist.
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2010 06:39:48 -0400
Subject: [AskPhilosophers] Response to the Question, "What Is Existence?"
From: robertmac...@gmail.com
To: AskPhil...@googlegroups.com
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Kenneth Stern
Jul 10, 2010, 7:09:36 AM7/10/10
to AskPhilosophers
The clearest way of asking about what is existence is to ask the
question, what are we saying when we say of something, X that it
exists (or does not exist)? Once we ask the question in this way, one
thing that jumps out is a question that Plato asked, which was how can
we say of X that X does not exist? For, Plato argued, to say that X
does not exist seems to imply a contradiction, since by asking that
question, we seem to be assuming both that that X does X exist, and
yet to be saying of X that it does not exist. After all, it would seem
that when we ask of anything whether it has some property, aren't we
assuming that it exists? For how could it even have a property unless
it exists? If it did not exist in he first place, what would have the
property. For instance, if we ask whether Barack Obama is president,
we must be supposing that something is Barack Obama. Else, of what
are we asking whether he is president? But, then, how could we then
truly say of anything that it does not exist, for of what would we be
asking that question. So the issue is this: to say of something that
it does not exist seems to imply that it does exist. So how could it
even make sense to say that something does not exist? Yet, on the
other hand, all of us know that not only can we say that something
does not exist (for example, Martians do not exist) but it is true
that somethings do not exist (Martians do not exist). So we appear to
be in the following paradoxical pickle: on the one hand we can say
truly that something does not exist, and yet it seems we cannot
sensibly say such a thing because it implies a contradiction.
The inevitable intuition is that to say of something that it exists
(or does not exist) must be different from simply saying of something
that it has a particular property, since for all other properties, we
can deny that something has that property without contradiction, but
we cannot deny that something has the property of existence without
contradiction. So, what kind of property is the property of
existence? Or, as some have argued, despite its surface appearance,
saying of something that it exists is not really saying of that thing
that it has a property, and existence is not a property as it first
appeared, and as the question, what is existence? assumes.
Prem Das
Jul 10, 2010, 7:51:33 PM7/10/10
to kenne...@gmail.com, askphil...@googlegroups.com
Hi, Greetings.
As I was reading your post, I had a sudden revelation. Axiomatically this question could/would not
be asked unless there is already an object, a subject, a idea, a theory, a happening causing contention,
causing contemplation, needing a definition.
I mean, how do we ask this question about nothing in particular ?
Another chicken or the egg conundrum or does existence have to be the very genesis of the
question ?
> Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 04:09:36 -0700
> Subject: [AskPhilosophers] Re: Response to the Question, "What Is Existence?"
> From: kenne...@gmail.com
> To: askphil...@googlegroups.com
As I was reading your post, I had a sudden revelation. Axiomatically this question could/would not
be asked unless there is already an object, a subject, a idea, a theory, a happening causing contention,
causing contemplation, needing a definition.
I mean, how do we ask this question about nothing in particular ?
Another chicken or the egg conundrum or does existence have to be the very genesis of the
question ?
> Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2010 04:09:36 -0700
> Subject: [AskPhilosophers] Re: Response to the Question, "What Is Existence?"
> From: kenne...@gmail.com
> To: askphil...@googlegroups.com
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robdashu
Jul 12, 2010, 10:58:01 AM7/12/10
to AskPhilosophers
First one must define the term “existence”. There are several
different senses of the word that are not mutually inclusive. The
concept of existence must first be defined. A concept is an idea. It
need not have a representation in the real world – many who have had
the concept of utopia, and tried to render it a reality have found
this out. So though a concept may be real – i.e. have existence in
someone's mind – it might exist only there.
The term has one meaning in reference to physical objects – the most
concrete sense. This one is a problem because of the perceptual
filter each of us has, and the inability to have precisely the same
idea in two human minds about what has been perceived; there is never
a certainty that two conversants fully understand each other and their
references. But, for physical objects, I think the definition has
some foundation, as basically being perceived by the majority of
observers, and having some physical characteristics that are
measurable.
When we move to the abstract world of ideas, we can define concepts
that we think describe “reality”, and then debate whether these
concepts are visible or demonstrated in any perceivable way. If we
can find evidence of their operation or impact, we may say they
“exist” - but primarily as concepts for which there is some evidence
of actual functioning. Then there is the sort of “existence” that is
purely of the human mind – such as spoken lore; in this case, the
unwritten word does not “exist” anywhere except in the human
consciousness, and is occasionally expressed when the story is
recounted. Does this story exist? Yes, but it is far from a concrete
existence.
As far as the existence of self, Descartes summed it up, though a
corporeal self (i.e. a body) is not necessary, only a thinking unit!
different senses of the word that are not mutually inclusive. The
concept of existence must first be defined. A concept is an idea. It
need not have a representation in the real world – many who have had
the concept of utopia, and tried to render it a reality have found
this out. So though a concept may be real – i.e. have existence in
someone's mind – it might exist only there.
The term has one meaning in reference to physical objects – the most
concrete sense. This one is a problem because of the perceptual
filter each of us has, and the inability to have precisely the same
idea in two human minds about what has been perceived; there is never
a certainty that two conversants fully understand each other and their
references. But, for physical objects, I think the definition has
some foundation, as basically being perceived by the majority of
observers, and having some physical characteristics that are
measurable.
When we move to the abstract world of ideas, we can define concepts
that we think describe “reality”, and then debate whether these
concepts are visible or demonstrated in any perceivable way. If we
can find evidence of their operation or impact, we may say they
“exist” - but primarily as concepts for which there is some evidence
of actual functioning. Then there is the sort of “existence” that is
purely of the human mind – such as spoken lore; in this case, the
unwritten word does not “exist” anywhere except in the human
consciousness, and is occasionally expressed when the story is
recounted. Does this story exist? Yes, but it is far from a concrete
existence.
As far as the existence of self, Descartes summed it up, though a
corporeal self (i.e. a body) is not necessary, only a thinking unit!
robdashu
Jul 12, 2010, 11:17:34 AM7/12/10
to AskPhilosophers
I don't buy that value has anything to do with it. Value in what
dimension? If by value, you mean having measurable characteristics,
okay, but I don't think that's what you mean, is it?
As far as the holding your breath thing, I don't think that proves
very much. When I was in elementary school, nuns told us God put us
here to test us; I considered this, and entertained the notion that
only I might exist, and God is putting my perceptions of the rest of
the world "in my head", so to speak (even though I might have no
body). Can you easily prove that this situation is not the case?
dimension? If by value, you mean having measurable characteristics,
okay, but I don't think that's what you mean, is it?
As far as the holding your breath thing, I don't think that proves
very much. When I was in elementary school, nuns told us God put us
here to test us; I considered this, and entertained the notion that
only I might exist, and God is putting my perceptions of the rest of
the world "in my head", so to speak (even though I might have no
body). Can you easily prove that this situation is not the case?
fisher
Jul 12, 2010, 7:47:48 PM7/12/10
to AskPhilosophers
Maybe the question ‘what is existence?’ boils down to ‘what is real?’.
And, in turn, because we cannot know what others can conceive of, this
implies the question ‘what is ‘real’ to me?’. And the only thing(s)
that can be ‘real’ to anyone are the impressions they make on one –
the experience one has of them.
Here we must be very careful because what one thinks is an impression
of something real may, in social terms, define the difference between
sanity and madness – i.e. if the society in which one lives has an
opinion that ‘x’ is real, then any one who thinks otherwise may be
labelled ‘mad’.
Does this make sense to anyone?
On Jul 8, 11:39 am, Robert Mackay <robertmackaywri...@gmail.com>
wrote:
And, in turn, because we cannot know what others can conceive of, this
implies the question ‘what is ‘real’ to me?’. And the only thing(s)
that can be ‘real’ to anyone are the impressions they make on one –
the experience one has of them.
Here we must be very careful because what one thinks is an impression
of something real may, in social terms, define the difference between
sanity and madness – i.e. if the society in which one lives has an
opinion that ‘x’ is real, then any one who thinks otherwise may be
labelled ‘mad’.
Does this make sense to anyone?
On Jul 8, 11:39 am, Robert Mackay <robertmackaywri...@gmail.com>
wrote:
Prem Das
Jul 12, 2010, 10:44:06 PM7/12/10
to fento...@dsl.pipex.com, askphil...@googlegroups.com
Hi.fenton.robb,
It makes perfect sense. You have described reality as we know it.
Individuals come together to form what we call societies and through consensus
arrive at a set of rules and regulations that ensure a peaceful and harmonious
atmosphere for all to live and prosper as per their abilities. This is called morality.
But of course there are those who place a great store on their individuality and
are content to live at the fringes of society. These are the thinkers, the philosophers, the miscreants,
the mendicants and so on and so forth.
Then there are those that fall through the cracks. The derelicts, the disenfranchised,
the marginalised. This is where morality falls flat upon its face.z
> Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 16:47:48 -0700
It makes perfect sense. You have described reality as we know it.
Individuals come together to form what we call societies and through consensus
arrive at a set of rules and regulations that ensure a peaceful and harmonious
atmosphere for all to live and prosper as per their abilities. This is called morality.
But of course there are those who place a great store on their individuality and
are content to live at the fringes of society. These are the thinkers, the philosophers, the miscreants,
the mendicants and so on and so forth.
Then there are those that fall through the cracks. The derelicts, the disenfranchised,
the marginalised. This is where morality falls flat upon its face.z
> Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 16:47:48 -0700
> Subject: [AskPhilosophers] Re: Response to the Question, "What Is Existence?"
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Prem Das
Jul 12, 2010, 11:37:16 PM7/12/10
to robd...@gmail.com, askphil...@googlegroups.com
The corporeal, if it does not think, it is meat. But if it does it is an entity.
I can live with that.
A long time ago I made a decision to filter out all outside influences by eschewing
books of any and all philosophical bend. I want a clear mind. Any credit I earn
and any mistakes I make, I wanted it all to be of my own endeavor. I find, the mind
left to its own devices, more often than not, finds its level at the truth. The secret
is to be free of pre-conceptions. They muddy the water. They distort the present by
the beliefs of the past. Score one for the hermits and the detached.
> Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 07:58:01 -0700
I can live with that.
A long time ago I made a decision to filter out all outside influences by eschewing
books of any and all philosophical bend. I want a clear mind. Any credit I earn
and any mistakes I make, I wanted it all to be of my own endeavor. I find, the mind
left to its own devices, more often than not, finds its level at the truth. The secret
is to be free of pre-conceptions. They muddy the water. They distort the present by
the beliefs of the past. Score one for the hermits and the detached.
> Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 07:58:01 -0700
> Subject: [AskPhilosophers] Re: Response to the Question, "What Is Existence?"
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "AskPhilosophers". To post to this group, send e-mail to AskPhil...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send e-mail to AskPhilosophe...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/AskPhilosophers.
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