Little Red Laser Tube Replacement

[Blake Samuels]

Hey Committee and Laser Subcommittee,

I've looked through available CO2 laser tubes on ebay, ali express and cloudray for a replacement for little red. Some email correspondence with sellers too.

I think the best choice is this one:

MCMlaser 60W tube from Ebay Australia seller and ships from within Australia.

Price: $575.00

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/MCWlaser-60W-Peak-80W-CO2-Laser-Tube-125cm-Express-Engraving-Cutting-From-AU/283636917774 

Some advantages over the other tubes I've looked at:

• Same dimensions as existing tube (best chance of compatibility)
• Shipping from within Australia - cheapest freight (and good test of this seller if we need to replace a larger tube)
• Seller answered questions promptly and seemingly with good knowledge on laser tubes
• Ebay/paypal buyer protections

Risks are that seller is dodgy (mitigated with paypal) or that tube doesn't work with our cutter (mitigated by email exchanges to check size, PSU, etc).

There is a cheaper one (Will Fan on list) however its not an exact match for size and is probably "too cheap".  

Spreadsheet with tubes and email exchange here:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/10VToZ2vxRx4R_PR038KbK12sf-ESLjiUESysF_6BfBw/edit?usp=sharing

Ill be purchasing this tube unless there is a strong reason against it.

Cheers

Blake

[Nick Bannon]

On Sun, Nov 17, 2019 at 09:06:29PM +0800, Blake Samuels wrote:
> Hey Committee and Laser Subcommittee,
> I've looked through available CO2 laser tubes on ebay, ali express and
> cloudray for a replacement for little red. Some email correspondence with
> sellers too.

Ooh, I've been looking forward to the next "non-rush" order of this sort
of thing for a long time.

> [...] Spreadsheet with tubes and email exchange here:
> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/10VToZ2vxRx4R_PR038KbK12sf-ESLjiUESysF_6BfBw/edit

Excellent due diligence in checking out the options, thank you.

However... after 6 years, and 5 years since our first quote, I very much
want this to be the time we get a laser pointer aiming dot as either a:
* Beam combiner mount; or
* a factory-installed coaxial/colinear pointer/combiner

It has promise of making basic targetting and detection of a mirror
misalignment simple and obvious to all users; and streamline the alignment
process from a sometimes fiddly series of trial and error test fires
into something with instantly-visible feedback. A straightforward
quality-of-life improvement.

Any tube for the LG500 is considerably cheaper than the LC1290's, less
than AUD$1000 delivered. So - if it works out well, it's a good trial
for getting a similar one for the LC1290 in due course.

The LG500 has clearance for a 1250mm long tube; with 55mm diameter clamps.
(the previous 2013-08-08? Chengdu-Weegiant 60W-nominal tube is 1200mm?
and we have alternate adjustable diameter clamps?
Power supply is 60W , model MYJG-60.
See: https://perthartifactory.slack.com/archives/CB9S94S2E/p1571659689038500 )

Of the available models, the SPT TR50 in your spreadsheet does seem
appropriate - a little smaller, a little lower power (so the existing
PSU should suit?):

https://fivelaser.aliexpress.com/store/group/SPT-laser-tube-Tr-series/4847191_514966992.html
https://ae01.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1X4n9QHvpK1RjSZFqq6AXUVXa4.jpg
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/33002318658.html
http://www.laserwd.com/product_tr50-50w-co2-laser-tube-with-red-pointer_33096.html

It does cost a little more at USD$486.61 = AUD$714? (the exchange rate
has moved in our favour a little) shipped, plus FX conversion fees? GST?

Compare: SPT TR50 MCMlaser 60W:
Model: TR50 60125
Price: AUD$469.76 AUD$495 (AUD/USD moved slightly in our favour?)
Shipping: AUD$244.58 AUD$80
Total: AUD$714.34 AUD$575
Length: 1030mm 1200mm
Diameter: 50mm 55mm
Nominal: 50W 60W
Lifespan: 10000hours 3000-4000hours (at nominal power)
"Peak": 65W 70-80W (*not* nominal lifespan)

I think you have found a good vendor for the MCMlaser 60W , at 80% of
the delivered price of the SPT TR50. They claim to be shipping "from"
Australia, however some vendors do stretch the truth there. They claim
to be Hong-Kong based and also have listings "from" China on, say:
https://www.ebay.fr/sch/reci-laser/m.html
http://www.cncoletech.com/

[...]

> There is a cheaper one (Will Fan on list) however its not an exact match
> for size and is probably "too cheap".

Agreed, no need to penny pinch. ::-)

If any of the tubes are a bit of a price stretch at this time, I'd like
to ask the membership for some matching contributions for at least the
difference - I think the extra will be easy to find and it's a mistake
to avoid the feature upgrade for the sake of a few dollars.

> Ill be purchasing this tube unless there is a strong reason against it.
> Cheers
> Blake

I hope this is sufficiently strongly convincing.

Nick.

--
Nick Bannon | "I made this letter longer than usual because
nick...@rcpt.to | I lack the time to make it shorter." - Pascal

[Nick Bannon]

On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 09:36:40PM +0800, Nick Bannon wrote:
> [...] I very much want this to be the time we get a laser pointer

> aiming dot as either a:
> * Beam combiner mount; or
> * a factory-installed coaxial/colinear pointer/combiner

Could I hear (again?) from Blake and Glenn? Anyone else?
No need to pull rank or stand on ceremony here, we're looking at the
options and seeing if we can get a rough, written consensus about a
choice that doesn't come up very often.

Steve points out that aiming dots are only useful with our regular
ZnSe lenses, not GaAs:
> One obvious issue with the collinear red laser is that it limits your
> choice of lenses to those that are also transparent to red light.

Fletcher wrote:
> I support not spending the extra money on a coaxial tube for Little Red.

Understood.

I think you mean the difference between $575+a beam combiner
and $714? but can I confirm/clarify the following Q's with you?

* The original G-Weike screwed-on aim-assist pointers might not help
mirror alignments? but:

* Q: Do you think that they're better than nothing and really do make
the machines a bit more friendly?

* A beam combiner has been a "maintainer" (possibly "member"?) project
ever since we knew they were available and we've explicitly said
"right, we should order one next time" loud and clear.

* Q: Do you want to order some? and get them on all three machines
in due course?

* I agree that it's of most benefit on the LC1290, though that doesn't
mean it has to be first one we try an install on.

* Maybe they are only USD$10 each(!), though previous quotes have been
closer to AUD$250 delivered.
https://www.lightobject.com/Mount-Fixtures/Pro-25mm-Beam-Combiner-Mount-with-Laser-Pointer
https://www.lightobject.com/Lens-Mirrors/25mm-Laser-Beam-Combiner
https://www.cloudraylaser.com/collections/co2-beam-combiner/products/cloudray-beam-combiner-set-20-25mm-znse-laser-beam-combiner-mount-laser-pointer-for-co2-laser-engraving-cutting-machine

* The coaxial red+IR tubes appeared and they seem to some of us like
a fabulous upgrade, all else being equal

* Q: Do you agree?

* (I acknowledge that any particular tube might have a different
price or different specs)
http://www.laserwd.com/products_tr-series-laser-tube_2017.html

* There was no expectation that a fit-for-purpose replacement tube
would be under $500 delivered. There's no scope creep, in fact prices
have come down a bit; especially now that there's three machines,
there's latitude to make changes with one while the others are
in service

* of course, that was part of the point of having two in the first
place, but we still felt the demand when one was down

* wow, there's a 40W tube for $129?!

* Anyway, all these prices seem pretty reasonable for a consumable
that should last 2-4 years and we're not expecting them to come
down much in the future.

[Nick Bannon]

On Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 11:50:20AM +0800, Nick Bannon wrote:
> On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 09:36:40PM +0800, Nick Bannon wrote:
> > [...] I very much want this to be the time we get a laser pointer
> > aiming dot as either a:
> > * Beam combiner mount; or
> > * a factory-installed coaxial/colinear pointer/combiner
>
> Could I hear (again?) from Blake and Glenn? Anyone else?
> No need to pull rank or stand on ceremony here, we're looking at the
> options and seeing if we can get a rough, written consensus about a
> choice that doesn't come up very often.

Hey all! No rush, but it'd be good to make a plan before some outage makes
it feel urgent again. That is - I don't think there's a need to put an
order in immediately? but we should have some items/vendors in mind.

There's been a few updates here:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/10VToZ2vxRx4R_PR038KbK12sf-ESLjiUESysF_6BfBw/edit

===
Summary points:
(I think the following are not in dispute - please say so if
otherwise, but please be specific and consensus building.
"We" includes our best guess about the members at large, not just the
people showing up on fourth-Monday, unless otherwise mentioned)

* We're probably after 60W nominal, even if there are cheaper
alternatives available

* We - laser subcommittee - are fairly confident that the existing
HV PSU will light up a 60W tube at 1080mm-1250mm; and we can't fit
anything longer, anyway

* A Perth seller would be worth paying extra - 50%?

* An Australian seller would be worth paying a bit extra - 20%?

* ...but in any case, we have no qualms about going straight to the
source if the value or benefits encourage it - usually works!

* We'd all like an aiming dot of some sort on every machine, but the
original screwed-on ones kinda sucked and would not stay accurately
pointed

* A coaxial red dot will make tube and mirror alignment considerably
easier and instantly verifiable; but opinions vary on whether it's
worth paying an extra 30-50% for

* Failing that, we should get a set of three beam combiner addons -
all together if they're cheap? Preferably before this upcoming
tube install, so we can try one out.

===

I worry there's something suspicious about an ebay seller that claims
"Australia" (with no address/postcode/state/phone number) on one page,
"Hong Kong" on another; and "Air Express & Insurance 5-6 Days Delivery AU".

Fletcher's got a shiny new steeple-fund pledge-tracker as part of:
https://finance.artifactory.org.au/

We could add an earmarked item to that fundraising list; though as one
of the major tool categories with some sort of longterm expense tracking
and amortised budget we could consider ourselves as saving for it.
Question: at a rate closer to:
* $100/month as around 2016.08.13 ? or
* $34/month, or $102 in the last 90 days?

* Nick: I'm in favour of choosing a SPT TR75
* Fletcher: Has a lower target price in mind for a MCWLaser 60W
or similar? but wants to spend a bit more to test a tube
order from an Australian vendor.

"I support not spending the extra money on a coaxial tube for Little Red."

* Lemming: Happy to pledge some extra towards a SPT TR75 or similar
* Anyone else: ?

[Blake Samuels]

Hi All,

My recommendation is still the ebay reci-laser MCWLaser M60 (total cost $575.00):

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/MCWlaser-60W-Peak-80W-CO2-Laser-Tube-125cm-Express-Engraving-Cutting-From-AU/283636917774 

Thanks for your research and summaries Nick. What follows are some points I have been thinking about. Apologies for the delay on getting them written out.

I agree that the TR75 is the appropriate one to compare MCW M60 to since both have nominal 60W outputs.

The SPT TR75's integrated red dot is a nice feature but I think its not great value for money. The purchase price from Aliexpress starts around $800 depending on exchange rate and credit card fees. However I think there might be customs fees and other import costs to consider on top of that? I am not experienced in this area. Various sellers have flagged that their costs are excluding such fees. Ebay seller "Reci-laser" (from above) warned that if I opted for the "from China" version of the MCWLaser M60 tube that extra fees would apply ("But you need to pay customs cost," - message history in spreadsheet). I had a bit of a look on AU gov customs websites but couldn't make much sense of it.

The MCWLaser tube "within Australia" option doesn't really come at a premium in price. The "from china" version from same seller is $616 shipped to australia (excluding import fees). Whether the tube is any good or not, I cant really say. I wasn't able to find much info about it online. Although the estimated service life is less than specified on other tubes, I'm not sure I trust any manufacturer's spec in that regard. On the positives, the ebay seller was responsive to questions and seemed good to deal with.

However the ebay seller "reci-laser" only has 50W, 60W and 80W available as ship from australia. From correspondance with them it looks like they have a warehouse somewhere in australia that holds some tubes that they reship from there. I imagine it saves them a bit of money to ship some tubes in bulk and resell them from there.

The other downside with MCWLaser tube is that its "unsoldered". The high voltage connection points are graphite rods and I've read that soldering onto them can damage tube so we need to be careful. Most other tubes on the list are either presoldered or have screw connection points like larger tubes (big red and kellog). A reasonable option is to buy some caps like described here: https://dzone.com/articles/replacing-a-cheap-chinese-co2-laser-tube. So I think we can manage.

My benchmark for quality/price is cloudray. We have had several good dealing with them for laser cutter consumables. Their 60W tube is approx $650 shipped (excluding any customs/import fees). Most other ali express tubes are cheaper but I don't have much faith in them. Probably the best candidate of cheaper ones is Will Feng "Yong Li 1200-Y Y3" for something like $425 AUD (excluding any import/customs fees). I've seen that tube model on multiple sellers. It would be a reasonable test of importing a tube ourselves with decent head room for unexpected fees and if it did fail after a year or so we could probably justify buying another tube (with increased knowledge).

Here is some background on the SPT lineup. They have the C series (cheapest - competitor for most other tubes), T series (premium) and TR series (premium with colinear laser fitted). The prices are arranged like this:

SPT C60  60W $603.37 AUD
SPT T75  60W $727.49 AUD
SPT TR75 60W $806.03 AUD

So they have added the colinear laser to their premium tube. If we think about the little red tube as a test for big red, unfortunately the extra price for the premium tube becomes even more unrealistic. I think that means it would not be practical to buy one of these for big red. (I've grabbed 150W accidentally instead of 130W but I believe the trend holds).

SPT C150  150W  $1,280.38 AUD
SPT T150  150W  $1,682.41 AUD
SPT TR150 150W  $1,729.45 AUD

The problem with buying a premium tube for an Artifactory laser cutter is that it might not last longer than a regular tube. I know of three tubes that have failed at the Artifactory - big red, little red and an old big red tube in the office. All have had a buildup of material over the output lens of the tube. I think it is the vapourised material (wood glue) which coats all internal surfaces of laser cutter. While I don't know for sure, I think its possible that this buildup contributes to the failure of the tubes. Since we have no way to clean discharge it might mean that more expensive tubes will not laser longer. However I don't have enough information to say with confidence.

It would be great if another manufacturer put a colinear laser on their standard tube. $50 to $100 would be my feeling of an acceptable price increase over a standard tube since the colinear laser is disposable with the tube.

In terms of red dot aiming assistance, I would be in favour of a beam combiner setup. I think with Kellog running that we could take on install of one. Maybe Big Red would be a good place to start. A quick browse on cloudray seemed to indicate they have various kits and components confusingly arranged on their websites. Something like $100-150 for a set. I think we would need a detailed costing to take to the committee to approve and a plan of when we would install it.

Cheers

Blake

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