[Article V :687] Fwd: Discussion of new Constitution On Facebook
Steven Moyer
From: <nodesn...@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, Apr 19, 2010 at 3:46 AM
Subject: Discussion of new Constitution
To: nodesn...@gmail.com
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1049131144&v=wall&story_fbid=114318365263238
Jodda Mitchell What is preventing us from doing this?---A constitutional convention is a gathering for the purpose of writing a new constitution or revising an existing constitution. A general constitutional convention is called to create the first constitution of a political unit or to entirely replace an existing constitutionen.wikipedia.org
Yesterday at 2:55pm · Comment · Unlike · Share
You, Florence Windfall and 4 others like this.
50 of 63
Greg McDonald I think the Tea Party is a Fox media creation, funded by the Koch brothers. They really are a very small group of confused middle class white people.
So I don't think they are going to bust anything wide open. At least as things stand at the moment. IMO, the only way to get a viable party on the left is to spark a new movement rooted in the working class, and that means generating new leadership among the unions, which are still throwing money at the democrats, the fools. If they would take some of that money and train organizers to start organizing the 90% of the working class who are not in unions, we might have a chance at creating a viable and independent left wing party.
So the question becomes, how to throw out all these corrupt piecards and regenerate a new movement with new leadership?
11 hours ago
Jodda Mitchell Greg, I say we need to get together and frame a new constitution, get it put to a vote, and when it passes, just hand the current regime an eviction notice. Then get through the ensuing bloodshed, 'cause these bastards won't give up without a fight.
11 hours ago
Arshad Ali @Lawrence: with all respect, and speaking as an Indian for once, it wasn't Gandhi and his non-violent methods that achieved independence. It was more people like Subash Chandra Bose, and also a bankrupt British empire that had neither the will nor the money to fight to keep India (unlike the Dutch in Indonesia and the French in Vietnam, who fought a losing war for years). The ruling class everywhere loves pushing people like Gandhi as exemplars -- precisely because that's not the way to go. How far would people like Gandhi and his non-violent methods get, for example, in opposing the US invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan? (To cover my own backside on FB, I'm not advocating violence. Just pointing out how ineffectual Gandhi-like methods are.)
11 hours ago
Michael Van Horn The Tea Party movement is not a creation of the media nor are they all white. They are a large group of people angry at many of the same things we all are.
But, the media makes them out to be a fringe group like they do WITH ANYONE that brings out the complaints of the people. Maybe if you actually listened to what the Tea Party movement was saying you would find common complaints I hear here all the time.
11 hours ago
Jodda Mitchell Neither am I advocating violence, just resistance against any violence directed toward a new government.
11 hours ago
Greg McDonald @Jodda--I still think you have it bass ackwards. If you look to the example of Venezuela, Ecuador, and Bolivia, you will note the new governments there convened constituent assemblies, rewrote the constitutions, and put them to a popular plebiscite vote. All that happened only after they were voted into power.
11 hours ago
Jodda Mitchell Greg, we also need to organize the homeless and the unemployed.
11 hours ago
Greg McDonald word on that.
11 hours ago
Evan Miller Ok maybe bust it wide open was overly optimistic but despite their numbers they're getting tons of coverage and exerting tons of influence even if they don't deserve it. They're not watering down their opinions and cynically dismissing things they believe in as unobtainable like so many Democrats are. They are pulling the Republican party rightward and we could learn a lot from that. And Fox News while being king cheerleaders are not the only outlet giving these folks press.
Also, I don't think they're middle class. They're rich!
I agree about the unions. They're money is much better spent elsewhere.
And given the treatment that Ralph Nader received in '00 and '04 a potential 3rd party progressive candidate would have to be off of his or her rocker to intentionally subject themselves to that kind of treatment by the "left."
11 hours ago
Jodda Mitchell Greg, I know what you mean, but I'm not at all sure we can vote anyone into power at this point, not within the framework of this regime. Meanwhile, people die every day as a direct result of US aggression.
11 hours ago
Greg McDonald Well, you have to remember Ralph got sabotaged because the Green party was infiltrated by democrats.
11 hours ago
Greg McDonald @Michael--trust me, I've been listening. A lot of it is coded racism, and they want their taxes only going to support "true americans", meaning white bread people. Screw that.
11 hours ago
Jodda Mitchell Michael, I agree with you. The Tea Party shares many of our concerns, but they seem very confused about many things, particularly socialism.
11 hours ago
Jodda Mitchell Yes, Greg, they seem racist as hell. I would like to see undocumented workers included in any revolution we begin.
11 hours ago
Lawrence Turner @ Arshad Ali,
I think that this is a different situation that needs different methods than those used by Gandi as this is a different culture but I believe the foundational principles are analogous to what is happening right here on these pages.
I do not believe that the material society we have in existence today can be tweaked to work worldwide ... the human race is hungry for spiritual comfort ... if that spiritual comfort can be found in our friends and neighbors then there is no need for any type of centralized institutional structures.
As long as these centralized institutional structures exist they will require that human beings conform to the needs of these institutions ... that is why we are at this juncture now!
11 hours ago
Greg McDonald Historically speaking, and up to the present moment, the only unions which have actively organized the undocumented are the UFW and the IWW. If there are any others I'm not aware of i'd love to hear about it.
And, ahem, I'm proud to call myself a Wob, even though I've backslid on dues. lol.
The UFW is in disarray due to some cult-like influences on their organizing strategy, which is unfortunate.
11 hours ago
Jodda Mitchell I just watched a great documentary on The Wobblies! I had no idea of this bit of history!
11 hours ago
Greg McDonald We're still around, all 2k of us.
11 hours ago
Greg McDonald http://www.iww.org
11 hours ago
Jodda Mitchell Awesome!
11 hours ago
Michael Pugliese Re : UFW, see the new book, The Union of Their Dreams: Power, Hope, and Struggle in Cesar Chavez’s
Farm Worker Movement
by Miriam Pawel
Bloomsbury Press, 2009, 384 pp., $28 http://www.dissentmagazine.org/article/?article=2452
10 hours ago
Chris Dorsey I believe that Constitutional Conventions be called for all over this country. In my opinion we would not have to come up with a new document only strategies to enforce the existing Constitution. The current institutions that control our government are explicitly unconstitutional according to Article I. Section 8. of our founding document. The Federal Reserve System and the current United States military have destroyed any sovereignty that the country may have had. The good news is these institutions have no legitimate legal authority.
10 hours ago
Florence Windfall Hey, hold your constitutional convention right here in the Hall where I'm working, "The Fellowship of Humanity" in Oakland, California. Oakland has actually been in the forefront of many radical movements. The only problem is that this is a small place with occupancy of only 260 people or so. But with conference calling and the web, maybe it could expand from within. You're welcome here before or after the revolution. Although after the revolution, I reckon you can hold it in Washington D.C. The wobblies held their annual convention here recently and they were here in the 1950s as well. At that time, they created our sign, the one on our building and on our website, that reads "The Fellowship of Humanity: The world is my country, to do good is my religion." Amen.
10 hours ago
Steve Moyer Yes, you can do it. There is a procedure for alling a convention for the purpose of amending the Constitution. But WE THE PEOPLE have the right to call a convention at any time for any reason. We don't need to appeal to anyone, we simply need to organize ourselves.
See my "Synergy Nation" group here on Facebook or at http://synergynation.net
or
or
10 hours ago ·
Michael Pugliese FOAVC co-Founder Joel S. Hirschhorn...still a 9-11 truther? I can imagine the ruckus at a constitutional convention full of the far left and far right fringes , where an amendment is proposed to hang bush and cheney and rumsfeld. these sites seen rather rather heavy on the libertarian right-edge , given your anti-capitalist ideology conficts with the libertarians, i can see little common ground .
10 hours ago
Michael Pugliese Why You Must Lead the Congress : The Limited Constitutional Convention
National Taxpayers Union on http://metamind.us/cc/
ntu is far right. say good bye to any adequate funding of social programs/safety net
9 hours ago
Chris Dorsey I believe the common ground can be enforcing the Bill Of Rights and publicly taking power away from the institutions that control our society that exist in clear violation of the basis for our country and the rule of law.
9 hours ago
Michael Pugliese http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Taxpayers_Union#History ah good old grover norquist, just for supporting savimbi, has blood on his hands , numerous authors on the left like thomas frank rip him to shreds in their texts on how the usa shifted hard rightwards ...yeehaw more far right extremists>
This web site is dedicated to the activities of the Nebraska Minutemen, a state chapter of Minuteman Civil Defense Corp, a national group of Americans concerned with United States boarder security, law enforcement and immigration issues. FOAVC member Mr. Dennis Murphy is currently state director of the Nebraska Minutemen. via http://foavc.org/file.php/1/Articles/Links.htm
9 hours ago
Chris Dorsey I believe Richmond Virginia would be a great place to have a Constitutional Convention in the fall of 2010. While the current power structure is engaged in Kabuki theater of a congressional election campaign we can point out the unconstitutional nature of the actions of congress and the institutions that control its members.
9 hours ago
Michael Pugliese
FOAVC member Michael Sandstrom founded this site to "bring God back into American politics." The site urges that all political parties come together as one party to help "restore America to a great nation again."
hm. more far right kookery , this time xtian , how about a constitutional amendment to restore prayer in schools, eh?
9 hours ago
Michael Pugliese "Hey, hold your constitutional convention right here in the Hall where I'm working, "The Fellowship of Humanity" in Oakland, California.
A Hall I know. Where I saw Gloria LaRiva, Stalinist, defend the DPRK and the anti-communist regime of Saddam Hussein. It is insrtuctive to have such meeting places where Sta-loons can be ridiculous. Leftists, esp. radical leftists who think a Constitutional Convention wouldn't be dominated by hard right-wing free-market orgs. hostile to the Left and liberalism are well, I think yoy get the point of my previous posts on this thread.
9 hours ago via Email Reply
Michael Pugliese given the learning that the libertarian and paleo-con cultural
conservatives have taken from the leninists and alinsky, um, any cxon
conv. is more than likely to have this balance 90% far right-wingnut, 10
far left wingnut , ever seen "packing a meeting, " ? Trotskyists and Far Rightists of all sorts will overwhelm any of the hippie good vibes folks
from vermont ...maybe kirkpatrick sale can show up with the
neo-confederate racists and an amendment for secession can be passed
..yee haw
>
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9 hours ago via Email Reply
Jason Sayre We should make an actual quality modern constitution for the people. That is a great idea! But what would it be besides paper? Would it matter? As Andrew Jackson said, "Justice Marshall has made his decision. Let him enforce it."
I think a revolution is also required.
9 hours ago
Steve Moyer I've been advocating a Convention for over 20 years. At one point I had the ONLY site advocating a convention on the web. I've dealt with lots of folks, including Libertarians and those whose primary concern is a "Balanced Budget."
I think the main point to remember is that we are seeking a 3/4 vote from the State legislatures on whatever is proposed. That's not easy to get. We couldn't even get it on the Equal Rights Amendment,.
From a strategic point of view it is important to remember that the very act of CALLING for a convention makes Congress and the President think twice about any further violations of the Constitution. It gives us a platform to make our grievances known.
I suggest we focus on the PROCESS of selecting Convention delegates. If we let the two parties pick them, we are already finished. I recommend that candidates be picked in a regular election by the people, with the ballot requirement to be no more difficult than what is required to run for Congress.
Each State will be able to set the process for that State.
So we have a massive organizing task ahead of us. We need to lobby the States to create a PROCESS for selecting delegates.
9 hours ago ·
Michael Pugliese Jason, "I think a revolution is also required." What kind of a revolution? Led by which vanguard parties of the marxist-leninist left or the neo-fascist right? A revolution is a pipe dream. ask any veteran of the radical left of the 60's or older leftists.
8 hours ago via Email Reply
Michael Pugliese Richmond, VA. ? Why not, as it was the seat of the Confederacy, no? Should please the neo-Confederate racists a lot .
8 hours ago via Email Reply
Jason Sayre Ask any failure about success? Why? No thanks. Peaceful types, internet scribes, all BS. Thanks but no thanks. Keep on with your reformism, though. That's working GREAT! :)
The kind of revolution that crusty activist failures dislike disciussing, which is the only possible revolution. Won't happen now. Currently a pipedream. But quit your revolution-is-impossible act. They're not. They happen all over the world, and they've happened here. And they will again.
The Marxist-Leninist Left of course! Enjoy the sun, Michael!
8 hours ago
Jason Sayre Gandhi showed us the way all right. Let's quit mythologizing real people, shall we? Dealing with fact makes me much more comfortable.
http://history.eserver.org/ghandi-nobody-knows.txt
http://www.isreview.org/issues/14/Gandhi.shtml
8 hours ago
Jodda Mitchell I am delighted to see that so many of you are open to this idea. I think it may be better to hold it somewhere in the middle of the country, as either coast (and probably the middle too) would be too far for everyone to travel to. Perhaps there is a way to do it electronically as Florence suggested? Or perhaps meetings all over the place, linked together online or through teleconferencing.
Steve, I don't think it should have to be voted on by any government now in place. It should just be up to 'we the people'.
Michael, I think the ultra-right is far smaller than you think. The problem is that our side never gets equal airtime, but given our ability to organize online, that is not so important as it once was.
8 hours ago
Michael Pugliese Ah, the M-L Left that has at least three dozen sects of any size above 100 cadre in a country of 300 million plus.
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8 hours ago via Email Reply
Jodda Mitchell Michael, there are more lefties in my friends list than that!
8 hours ago
Michael Pugliese three dozen is 36, times 100 cadre equals 3,600. Do you have 3,600 leftists in your list? And if u did are more than a fifth of them effective organizers...organizers, not activists, there is a diff. the latter is a circle jerk identity one relates only to other far leftists at demos that no one else pays attn. to since they are freak shows...organizers build movements like MLK, Jr. did that push for POWER through the political process pushed along by protest ...i haven't seen an effective left since i was a kid
7 hours ago
Jodda Mitchell No MLK yet, but everyone has potential! Our focus should not be on leading people, but on accompanying them. And, Michael, I am only one person. FB has what, 300 million members? How many more are there with tons of leftist friends?
I don't know why you're in denial on this. A recent poll showed that 32% of the population now views socialism as a good thing. I think the far right is smaller than that, and the folks in the middle can become enlightened at any time. We're all doing what we can!
7 hours ago
Michael Pugliese 32% of the population now views socialism as a good thing....and of that third do even a fifth of that have the slightest understanding of socialist theory or history? heck, of all the communists and socialists i have known barely a fifth could give a talk of 10 minutes about their vision of socialism , its successes and failures , that went beyond mom and apple pie bromides like peace and brotherhood ...who isn't for peace and brotherhood/sisterhood?
7 hours ago via Email Reply
Christopher Alan Driscoll Jodda, here I am at your urging.
I'm not so sure this is the time to be calling for a Constitutional Convention, mainly because the working class today is less well organized and mobilized than at any other time in the last 130 years. A call like this should come at the apex of a working class movement, not at its trough.
I hate to ever find myself agreeing with Pugliese, but I think this is not the time. This is a time we need to be educating and agitating, not overreaching.
Liberalism, with all of its imperial, murderous activities hidden by the smiles and pretty words of tricksters like Obama is at its apex today and I'd hate to see the kind of Constitution Obamamaniacs would create.
Would it include the Patriot Act that Obama recently signed after the Democrat Congress re-authorized it?
Would it give Obama war powers that our current Constitution forbids him—even though the Democrat Congress continues to allow Obama's illegal and unconstitutional waging of war without a Congressional act of war?
Would it allow Obama's trillion dollar bailouts of Wall Street banksters? I fear so. Since the Supreme Court has ruled that corporations are free to spend all the money they want to on political campaigns, would it be dominated by corporate powers and by the corporatists who run the Democrat and Republican Parties? I think so.
The current Constitution includes numerous faults, the worst of which is that it has allowed the money powers to rule and to lord over the rest of us, but it is far better than anything we could possibly expect from the dominant Democrats and Obama, bought off as they are by big money, big business and the rich and powerful.
The tide will turn.
People will wake up from their idolatry of corporatist Democrats and Republicans like Obama and Palin, but we are not there yet.
7 hours ago
Steve Moyer The proper business of government is the health of the people. This includes their security, of course.
Some may consider me a liberal but I simply think of myself as a pragmatist. What works? Our current system clearly has failed. We need a new economic system, one that works for everyone. I suggest we start by focusing on EQUAL HEALTH CARE provided by government, much like Canada's "Single Payer" system.
If government was concerned with the health of the people it wouldn't be running around the globe killing suspected "enemy combatants."
This is a proposal which has the potential to get the support of a lot of people who are unhappy with the "for profit" health care system and the people who want to stop the foreign wars.
A health care system could be structured on another kind of currency, one that doesn't need to be borrowed from the wealthy elite ( at interest ). Canada and Mexico might want to join us in this endeavor. Why shouldn't your health care work in Canada, the U.S. or Mexico? More choices = lower cost and better health care.
The current Constitution is premised on the idea that "money will make you free." But the reality is that money has made us poor servants of the wealthy. Perhaps money has worked for 20 percent of the population. It's a raw deal for the rest of us.
We need a new economic system. It should be structured to support the health of ALL the people rather than the wealth of a few.
7 hours ago ·
Jodda Mitchell Chris, I rarely ever disagree with you, but I think we should at least be discussing a new constitution. The current government has only a small approval rating. Most people are horribly unhappy with all the things you mention. The majority of those who vote dem do so because they don't know what else to do. Let's get busy showing them!
6 hours ago
Jodda Mitchell Steve, you are completely correct!
6 hours ago
Jodda Mitchell Michael, this is not the place to insult socialists!!!
6 hours ago
Christopher Alan Driscoll @Arshard and Jason, Gandhi offered some really valuable tactics for organizing people in large numbers. He successfully organized a nationwide general strike at one point that almost brought down the British control of India, however, his strict non-violence, even to the point of calling off a successful general strike because of associated violence, was his, and India's undoing. It's true, as Jason posted states, that Indian independence was probably delayed by decades because of Gandhi, but not as it states, because of his 'inconsistancy', but rather because at crucial points, points at which the independence movement had the Brits by the balls, Gandhi backed off because of the violence that came of it. I think we should take from Gandhi's life those positive lessons we can find while recognizing that he wasn't always right, and that you can't expect an entire nation of people to free themselves without also allowing themselves to defend themselve! s from imperialist violence. The article Jason posted critiquing the movie about Gandhi was written by somebody who is obviously a rightwing supporter of imperialism, so it was biased and inaccurate, but still it had one important point to make, that is, that no human being is as saintly as many make Gandhi out to be.
6 hours ago
Steve Moyer Here's a proposal that has a lot of support:
http://www.change.org/ideas/view/move_to_amend_constitutional_rights_for_people_not_for_corporations
Our existing Constitution put PROPERTY RIGHTS above HUMAN RIGHTS. We need to remember that it was LEGAL in the original Constitution for "one man to OWN another man."
Property was the highest "good" in society at the time.
The only people who voted were men who owned property.
Be wary of anyone who practices "Constitution worship" which is usually manifest by the idea that "there is nothing wrong with the Constitution; we simply need to follow it."
No, there are many things wrong with the Constitution. One of them is the idea that the States are sovereign entities.
That's nonsense. The concept of "sovereign" is inherently flawed anyway because it presumes to know what a "supreme authority" truly is.
The truth is that there is always a higher authority.
Think about it. Anyone asserting "States rights" or "individual sovereignty" is feedling you a line ... of B.S.
If you aren't struck by the very concept of "supreme authority" as something which shoudl be reverred as a mystery, then you simply didn't get the concept.
and can be found by searching the MetaMind.
--
"Consume less and share more."
Think virtue. Teach virtue. Live virtue
Steve Moyer
http://stevemoyer.us
http://groups.google.com/group/synergynation
http://nodes.net ( NODES Network )
802-324-9152 ( cell ) 508-471-7516 ( voice mail )
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