Rapier vs longsword

[John Harmston]

Here is a Youtube video that I encountered showing longsword vs rapier
sparring.

Some positives:

- Although they are padded up, they deserve credit for using steel.
- The martial intent is quite good in my opinion, again, considering
they are using steel.

Negatives:

- I don't see the rapier fighter using historical guards much at all.
- The longsword is trying to fight like the rapier with a lot of
thrusting and very linear footwork.

So, I am interested in your thoughts?

John H

[Stewart Feil]

You didn't attach the link

--
Stewart Feil
Spokane, WA


"In framing a government which is to be administered by men over men, the great difficulty lies in this: you must first enable the government to control the governed; and in the next place oblige it to control itself." -- James Madison, Federalist No. 51


"[I]f a man neglects to enforce his rights, he cannot complain if, after a while, the law follows his example..." --Oliver Wendell Holmes

[W]e’ve been tempted to believe that society has become too complex to be managed by self-rule, that government by an elite group is superior to government for, by, and of the people. Well, if no one among us is capable of governing himself, then who among us has the capacity to govern someone else?  --Ronald Reagan

--"We shall never prevent the abuse of power if we are not prepared to limit power in a way which occasionally may also prevent its use for desirable purpose." --F.A Hayek, The Road to Serfdom

[kros...@hotmail.com]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6r7VWIQCHvM&feature=channel_page

[Mark Driggs]

The long swordsmen hangs out in alber and pflug a lot, of course, I would probably do the same against rapier.  I did notice towards the end, the Long sword was hanging out in the conan-esque guard and suffered as a result.  I can't really comment on the rapier too much.  I liked the long sword schnit at the end though.

Mark

[Howard Coons]

I noticed a number of hits with a single-handed thrust in the first third of the clip. A nice move to catch someone off guard who is used to the slightly less extended double-hand reach, or a risky move with slightly less control of the weapon?

Howard

[Stewart Feil]

Decent levels of intent. Good for them for doing Rapier v. Longsword. I don't know many people besides me and Eli who have spent much time with that. I think that their training tools leave much to be desired. Even the longsword looked rather noodly. What I am most critical of is their poor use of range. The longsword guy shouldn't let the fight stay at a range where the rapier has the advantage without the rapier guy having to really work for it. This requires serious application of dynamic footwork. The longsword guy was pretty much moving the same way as the rapier guy. This left him open to the rapier's strengths, and closed off his ability to use the longsword's strengths. The way that you succeed in unlike weapon fighting is to play your strengths agains their weaknesses. Don't fight similarly to your opponent, fight dissimilarly. Rapier wants to stay at range and stab. Longsword should close almost to a clinch.

With a little bit more work on the fundamentals of longsword, the guy could probably really change the dynamic of the fight. It looks like they are at least in the same general area as the right path for their study. Good effort. Wouldn't mind spending some time with them and cross-polinating some ideas.

Stew

[Brian Hunt]

Hi John,

Actually the rapier fighter does a very nice job of staying within the Capo
Ferro system. I saw all four guards though he mainly stayed in third. I
especially liked the clean thrust as he transitioned from third to second
and thrust around the longsword from second. Nice thrust, one of my
favorites. I personally hit a lot of people with that one.

He is a fairly good rapier fighter. I would love to cross blades with him.
He has good distance and timing, a decent lunge and firmly undstands that
fighting with a rapier also means you need to be able to defend yourself
after you hit your opponent as you move back out away from him. A thrust is
not a fight stopper the way a major cut can be unless you hit the correct
ventrical on his heart (the upper ones drops you, the lower ones generally
bleeds you out) or the brain through the eye. You have to defend yourself on
the way in and on the way out. The minute you enter his measure you put your
own life at risk, you need to minimize that as much as possible (whether
with the rapier or the longsword).

I really enjoyed this video. I have played with rapier vs. longsword on more
than one occasion and I find if I control the range I can usually take a guy
with a longsword with a rapier. Especially if he follows my lead and plays
my game. I have also done smallsword/epee vs longsword and I find that while
the range is shorter for me, I can still usually win if they make the
mistake of playing my game.

The longsword fighter needs to learn how to better cover his lines so he can
get in closer plus he needs to traverse more so he can exploit his opponents
opening after closing off the line.

I would love to spar with either of these fellows. I wish there were more
videos like this one on youtube.

Brian.

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10:36:00

[Krosshair]

Thanks for the comments, everyone.  Exactly the type of feedback I was looking for.

John H

[Michael Chidester]

The longsword fighter's problem was definitely the range. The static range they fought at put him at a distinct disadvantage. Most of my successes in longsword vs rapier with Eli come from closing range. (Most of my successes in rapier vs rapier at the SCA also come from closing range).


Michael Chidester
Senior Instructor
Provo WMA Study Group


STRENGTH AND HONOR

[Andrek & Jen .]

Are any of you interested in doing a WMA conter video that shows how this group interprets manuals?

--

Andrek & Jennowynne LLC
Director
www.usableweapons.com

[Howard Coons]

I would be happy to volunteer as one of the guys who knows very little about what's going on. :-) (ie, the amateur's way of doing things).

It might even be fun to do an instructor's video of poor technique vs. good technique. I wouldn't mind being the "poor technique" example as it would give me a chance to observe what I should work on improving.

Howard

[John Bickerstaff]

Yup!

As Eli has heard me say many times, I've wanted to help with such an effort since I first became aware of WMA...

My own two-cents worth is that it would be excellent if we also created video to help those who want to learn establish a useful practice routine and develop their basic skills in their own backyard...

I'm not the guy to demonstrate perfect technique, but I do have video editing tools and skills and would be happy to participate in whatever way is useful to the group...

Publish first, often, with high quality and own the space...

--- On Thu, 4/23/09, Howard Coons <hlc2...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Andrek & Jen .]

That is exactly what Jen & I have wanted to do for a few months.  Both camera's we have used didn't record well, or they didn't transfer the files.  So we have picked up a new on that will automatically load it to our video site from the camera anywhere there is a signal :D

[John Bickerstaff]

Excellent!

I'll be happy to help in whatever way is useful. I can be in the video and I also have FinalCut etc... on a Mac for the editing of video if needed.

I dream of the production of some high-quality DVDs that will put good interpretations of the source materials of the WMA on the map as a serious martial study...

--JohnB

--- On Fri, 4/24/09, Andrek & Jen . <usable...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Eli Combs]

This is definitely something we want to move forward with as HEC Fed.  Give us a little more time... :)

Eli Combs

[John Bickerstaff]

To quote the Sheriff of Nottingham... "I'm relaxin', I'm relaxin'"

No worries! I'll be here when we're ready to roll...

--- On Sun, 4/26/09, Eli Combs <arma...@gmail.com> wrote:

> From: Eli Combs <arma...@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: Rapier vs longsword
> To: arma...@googlegroups.com