Artemis and Apollo
pj
only remember one of them! So, I'll ask the one I know know and if I
can remember the other one later will ask in another thread.
It came to me today that generally in literature and in things like
temples and ancient scriptures (that have been discovered), coins,
images on vases etc, there seems to me that there is more reference to
Artemis than to Apollo.
I have no data on this but is there anybody that agrees (or disagrees)
with me? It seems strange to me that in ancient Greece, which we can
all admit was a man's world, there would be more dedications and
references to Artemis than to her twin brother Apollo.
ga...@berkeley.edu
> only remember one of them! So, I'll ask the one I know know and if I
> can remember the other one later will ask in another thread.
>
> It came to me today that generally in literature and in things like
> temples and ancient scriptures (that have been discovered), coins,
> images on vases etc, there seems to me that there is more reference to
> Artemis than to Apollo.
My guess is that it is the other way around and your sample size is
small. If you look on vases you might get a different %, but who
knows?
It is worth checking out. Try your HERODOTUS index for both gods and
see what the breakdown is.
gaius
Dan Powers
"My guess is that it is the other way around and your sample size is
small. If you look on vases you might get a different %, but who
knows? "
************
I think that Gaius is dead on here - in that whatever you are looking at -
the sample size is "off"
In general terms here are my thoughts - which may also be "off"
1) The trend of religion (arguably until Christianity) has had central
themes related to fertility cults. The most common form is some 'version'
of the "fertility goddess" - much of this is based on the anthropological
perspective, but looking at the Greeks, and Romans in our case - what
records we have, along with the material evidence - representations of women
is a relative norm.
2) As far as number male versus female gods, the number and frequency
(especially in terms of representation & importantly number of
shrines/temples/ and artwork) vary widely from one polis to the next and
also vary according to region, at least within Greece - and I would suspect
this of Roman areas as well.
3) Looking at the specific places of the Olympian pantheon - Artemis
represents 'hunter' and 'nature' - in Greece where the physical terrain
allows for only a relatively small amount of "wild nature" a God of some
sort is necessary to be able to harvest beast or plant for sustenance. -
This idea may relate back to the Titan, Rhea* (Mother Earth) who was also
the mother who gave birth to Zeus. So I would suggest that there is a deep
seated mythological memory that connects 'mother earth' + 'nature' = more
emphasis on worship of the respective associated female deity. (Which seems
to include most cultures, not just Greek and Roman.)
In the case of Apollo, he is more widely known for
4) Evidence (that survives anyway): It may well be that the number of
temples and other artifacts leave us an incomplete record, but we do have a
number of texts that survive. Beyond the standard historians, I would
suggest perusing Pindar's Odes, Aristotle, Plato, and Pausanias the travel
writer (as he records most of the landmarks of religious type as well as
others), and also Strabo may be of more help in informing us about Greece
and also importantly "beyond Greece" for matters throughout the ancient
world. Of course during the early Hellenistic period, things get very
muddled - it is a trademark of ALL the Hellenistic Rulers to attempt to
build their own personal hero cults as well as giving patronage to the
"commemoration" of various deities - which definitely distorts the record,
and mixes man/god (example the buildings of the Pergamum Acropolis, now in
the Berlin Museum.) The other two places that might shed light, are first
Olympia, Zeus was not the only god who had a temple there. Second, not just
the temple remains but also the treasuries we know about at Delphi. Of
course there were similar treasuries at Olympia (and treasuries at both
sites sparked wars leading into the rise of Philip II of Macedon.)
I think if a person were to investigate the number of representations
(textual + material) that it may turn out there is only a narrow gap. In
this case, you would need to define the specific criteria for what
constituted a single representation. If you count each 12 coins with
Artemis on one side as 12 separate representations, or if you know the coins
came from the same coin horde (minted and pressed at the same time in the
same place) as a single separate representation - that is something you
would need to clearly state in your parameters before your analysis of the
evidence. Those definitions could easily tilt the evidence to favor one or
the other.
Just some thoughts.
Dan
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Dan Powers
It does seem a bit fortuitous that I happen to be working on a book review of a monograph on "Pindar's Odes." So this thread provides a timely reminder to me to re-consult all these sources. I will provide a report of what I find related to this in the next two weeks.
Dan
pj
temples etc) of Artemis that there are of Apollo. (I know I will have
to give some examples at some point)
But just consider this quickly. While twins like Castor and
Polydeuces (the Gemini twins in Latin and in Greek refereed to as the
Dioscuri). Are always portraid together (at least as far as I
know). The twins, Artemis and Apollo rarely are. How many statues or
temples do you know of with both of them together? There are plenty
of temples of Artemis or Apollo for instance, but as they are twins I
would think that one temple should be for the both of them, not just
dedicated to Artemis for instance.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
On another side note wikipedia says that "Dioscūrī; Greek: Διόσκουροι,
Dioskouroi, "sons of Zeus",
But I can quite clearly see two Greek words here Dio (meaning the
number 2, as in Duo in English). And skouroi, which means 'blackened'
as in to 'dirty' your face, could be described as skouroi.
Why does wikipeida say it's means 'sons of Zeus'?
ga...@berkeley.edu
> temples etc) of Artemis that there are of Apollo. (I know I will have
> to give some examples at some point)
Castor and Polydeuces are nearly gods of twins and appear together
all the time. Apollo and Artemis have separate functions and related
functions. They appear together sometimes but not always.
The dio in Dioskouroi is genitive of ZEUS.
Kouros (like the Getty Kouros) is youth. They are "sons of Zeus."
> but as they are twins I
> would think that one temple should be for the both of them, not just
> dedicated to Artemis for instance.
Nah it does not work that way with all siblings or twins. For all
practical purposes you should think that C + P took over the realm of
divine twins from A+ A.
Dan Powers
"Why does wikipeida say it's means 'sons of Zeus'?"
My own personal take on Wikipedia is this:
It is okay to find some basic sources I know nothing about, and then reach out to the sources listed in the particular article, if those are there. I find that a large number the facts are either incorrect or misrepresented, which means for me mostly using it is a waste of time. N
Here in, lies Wiki's credibility-reliability problem. Anyone, can log in and change all of the info, and there is no review. Most often there are no source citations backing up the respective article. To ask why something is on wiki then, is a question that is not going to create an understandable answer.
I would always prefer to consult the OCD, Or the Cambridge dictionary of the classical world as the first starting point. That is just my two pence worth.
George T
I do have some questions, if you don't mind responding futher:
How do you reconcile that 'dio in Dioskouroi is gentitive of Zeus'?
One of the twins' father was not Zeus, but a mortal. (so how come called
'sons of Zeus')
I understand Zeus (pronounced 'Ziss' in greek) is pertaining to mean 'life',
it being the male version of the female name Zoe. How does dio come from
his name?
The modern Greek word for youth is νεροσ (though I do not know what the
ancients used). I though Kouros meant hansome body/man, I didn't realise it
means youth, as in being young. I would of thought a old man with a
six-pack abs and in great physical fitness could be described using the
word, but now I'm thinking he can't if he must be young.
Wow, 'you should think that C + P took over the realm of divine twins from
A+ A' that is an eye opener of a comment, I have never thought it that way
before.
Thanks for your input.
gt
-----Original Message-----
From: arkaion...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:arkaion...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of ga...@berkeley.edu
Sent: Thursday, 24 November 2011 5:01 PM
To: arkaion...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Artemis and Apollo
--
George Makris
From: pj <pj2...@gmail.com>
To: Arkaion Bellum (Ancient Battle and Warfare) <arkaion...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, 24 November 2011 12:58 PM
Subject: Re: Artemis and Apollo
ga...@berkeley.edu
> young males/ sons. The two words combined doesn't equate to the two
> literal meanings, but mean 'Twins'. And used a noun to refer to C & P.
>
> It does not mean sons of God, as Dios is Latin for God, but this is a
> Hellenic word.
>
My Latin is good; my Greek is not. DEUS is Latin for god with an e.
Sorry I wasn't clear enough before.
I am pretty sure the genitive of Zeus is Dios, check Lidell and Scott.
I don't know all of my numbers and ancient Greek. Kouros means
youth, alright, but in a looser sense it can be son. So the
translation is Zeus'-boys.
I hope this is correct, and if so, it solves your mystery.
(PS most of us say Greek instead of the proper word Hellenic)
George Makris
From: "ga...@berkeley.edu" <ga...@berkeley.edu>
To: arkaion...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, 30 November 2011 2:12 PM
Subject: Re: Dioskouroi
ga...@berkeley.edu
>
> I do have some questions, if you don't mind responding futher:
>
Dear George,
sorry I did not read this before I replied. We will exhaust my
knowledge about the linguistics and the Dioskouroi.
> How do you reconcile that 'dio in Dioskouroi is gentitive of Zeus'?
> One of the twins' father was not Zeus, but a mortal. (so how come called
> 'sons of Zeus')
on a linguistic matter the genitive is Dios; you are correct in a
biological sense, but apparently Zeus treats them both to the same
goodwill. I guess he's a good stepfather. In any case the twins always
run around together, and I recall reading in some mythology book that in
certain poleis the youths were considered both to be sons of Zeus, along
with their full sister Helen, so only Clytemnestra was regarded as 100%
mortal. In other cities Clytemnestra had a full brother.
> I understand Zeus (pronounced 'Ziss' in greek) is pertaining to mean
> 'life',
> it being the male version of the female name Zoe. How does dio come from
> his name?
This is all news to me. In my ancient Greek 1 class 20 years ago, we
were taught that Zeta was Dz in some poleis and Zd in others. The
genitive Dios undergoes stem change to change Zeta to Delta. We were
supposed to say ZDeus (this comes up in Athenaze).
>
> The modern Greek word for youth is νεροσ (though I do not know what the
> ancients used). I though Kouros meant hansome body/man, I didn't realise
> it
> means youth, as in being young. I would of thought a old man with a
> six-pack abs and in great physical fitness could be described using the
> word, but now I'm thinking he can't if he must be young.
>
(I cannot type in Greek characters in this e-mail program) Kouros
does normally mean handsome fellow. All the statues I can recall
said to be of a kouros are youths between the ages 15-21. My sample
size could be too small. I thought neros = new in Greek. If so I
can understand how this means young i.e. (newly) man.
> Wow, 'you should think that C + P took over the realm of divine twins from
> A+ A' that is an eye opener of a comment, I have never thought it that
> way before.
> > Thanks for your input.
Gaius
George T
Still, stay with me here and I take the long way around to where I want to get at, I'm hoping when you read this you have already heard in Greek Myth the name 'Kore' who is better known as Persephone (who spent half the time in Hades (winter) the other half on earth (spring/summer).
In English she can be called Kore, this is because this is the greek word for 'daughter' (it sounds like Kory or Koree) as she is the daughter of Demeter (harvest/fertility).
Kouroi is the male equivalent, and now that I looked it up Wikipedia it shows that the words are male and female version of the same word.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kouros
kouros would be used singularly as in boy, kouroi is used for plural as in boys.
Dio is the Latin (and Spanish) word for God, see here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dio
I'm not sure how it could be greek for God.
Theo is the Greek name for god. Some people are called Theo, also see Theology (study of gods) and anything else that starts with theo.
The greek work for the number two is 'duo' (where the English word duo comes from, meaning two).
In greek it is spelt with the middle letter being 'u' but it is pronounced like an 'i' (so if you heard it in greek you would hear this 'dio' (for the letter d you need to put your tongue between your teeth to make the correct sound)
It is spelt Dioscuri not Duoscuri, but I still can see that through translation the Dio is refering to the number two.
So what I'm trying to get out is Dio = Two and kouroi = Boys, so literally it means 'Two boys'; twins being the closest meaning to what their name really means and not 'sons of Zeus'. Let us remember that when they died they went up to heaven and became the star sign Gemini, so 'twins' in name and in nature.
Still I admit that I have not accounted for the letter 's' in Dioskouroi.
Thanks for being patient through all this. I am open for any criticism.
Gt
-----Original Message-----
From: arkaion...@googlegroups.com [mailto:arkaion...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of ga...@berkeley.edu
>
> The modern Greek word for youth is ?e??s (though I do not know what the
> ancients used). I though Kouros meant hansome body/man, I didn't realise
> it
> means youth, as in being young. I would of thought a old man with a
> six-pack abs and in great physical fitness could be described using the
> word, but now I'm thinking he can't if he must be young.
>
(I cannot type in Greek characters in this e-mail program) Kouros
does normally mean handsome fellow. All the statues I can recall
said to be of a kouros are youths between the ages 15-21. My sample
size could be too small. I thought neros = new in Greek. If so I
can understand how this means young i.e. (newly) man.
> Wow, 'you should think that C + P took over the realm of divine twins from
> A+ A' that is an eye opener of a comment, I have never thought it that
> way before.
> > Thanks for your input.
Gaius