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Zeno777
which then branched out into two directions,all aimed at willing in
court, 1st politics sub-branch of Ethics, and 2nd topics leading into
Logic. Aristotle worked dililgently to organize Plato's Academy,
which he entered when he was 18 and Plato 60, and the main effort of
the academy, like the sophists befor them, was to teach rich young
men how to defend themselves in court, the Athenian General Assembly
of all Citizens, and protect their fortunes from lawsuits. Young men
of the day had to become their own lawyers, as being represented by
professional lawyers would have been prohibited. Sir Ernest Barker
mentions that the Natural Law consists of Aristotles Rhetoric, Ethics,
and the Seven Extant Pages of Zeno of Citrum, Cyprus, and that all
attmepts at International Law and Comparative Law boil down to the
Natural Law.
Xeno, like Socrates, was a poor boy could not affford to attend the
paid lectures of Aristotle, nor the Academy, nor the Sophists nor the
Rhetoricians, so he paid a Cynic to teach him philosophy, but never
knew Aristotle's private lectures, only Aristotle's Public Lectures,
mostly as Master Publicist for the Academy and later for his own
Lyceum. Aristotle was said to be the Greatest Public Writer of the
Ancident Greece, and became the model for Cicero, whose own writings
became the model for Latin (Ciceronian Latin.)
When Plato died and left the Academy to his nephew, Speusippus,
Aristotle was very dissappointed and left the Academy, accompanied by
Eudoxus, the greatest Mathmatician of the day. Eudoxus, to gain
credibility for his mathematics attributed some of his own earlist
discoveries to Thales, and accomplished what was later accreditied to
textbook writer Euclid. The system of Cycles and Epicycles was
Eudoxus independent invention, and sought to disencourage the use of
astrology, invented by the Summarian astronomers as a scam to make
money to support their astronomical researchs.
The Judeo-Christian Bible, books of philosophy only, until 199 CE,
also disencouraged astrology. Eudoxus knew better than his publicaly
offered, little white lie, Geo-Centric System, but never dreamed that
it would cause any problems, merely to prevent people from being
exploited by Astrologers. The pythagoreans it is now believed
invented what first was known as the arabic numerical system, then as
the hindu numerical system, but the Pythagoreans, a society of
professional mathmaticians, kept it secret, having their slaves and
other menial employees use the Abacus, whose invention reaquired
knowledge of the base ten numerical system, but could allow metirics
and slaves to enploy the abacus, with out knowing the base ten
numerical system. Examining Coffey's Logic in the Columbia University
Lilbrary, if was a gift from William O'Donovan, better known as "Wild
Bill, " founder of the OSS, for runner of the CIA. Alen Dulles,
first head of the CIA. was the attorney for Prescott Bush, and a much
inferior man. Coffey's Logic is a two volume set, composed by a
Catholic Priest from Ireland, and is the most encyclopedic of
traditional Aristotelian Logics. Lionel Ruby's Logic, was written by
a professor at Rockefeller University, which along with the Pasteur
Institute in Paris, France, is one of the Two most outstanding Bio-
Medical Research Institutes in the World; therefore it had to be very
practical, and is good after the first two chapters, and has a great
set of practical problems one should enjoy working through in a
summer. Professor Leonard Peikoff's Logic is said to be good. So
logic evolved to solve legal problems and then proved its usefullness
to science. Euclid's Geometry is orgaized according to Aristotle's
Logic and Metaphysics.
waveletter
Well, in order to rebut what you say, it's hard to find a starting
place. There are so many implicit ideas and so many half-truths, that
countering any one of them would seem to be an endorsement for the
some of the others. Well, let me just take them in rough order.
On Apr 15, 10:05 pm, "Zeno777" <JamesThompso...@gmail.com> wrote:
> My Understanding is that Aristotle's thought began with the Rhetoric,
> which then branched out into two directions,all aimed at willing in
> court, 1st politics sub-branch of Ethics, and 2nd topics leading into
> Logic.
Most scholars believe that the chronological order of Aristotle's
logic works is: "Categories", "On Interpretation", "Topics",
"Posterior Analtyics", "Prior Analytics", and "On Sophistical
Refutations", which might well be an appendix to the "Topics". Where
does his "Rhetoric" fit in? Well, there are references in the
"Rhetoric" to things that happened after Aristotle left Athens. Then
these parts of the text can't be early. Period. But maybe they were
added later, redactions to the original notes. Still, it seems that
the body of the "Rhetoric" presupposes the "Topics". Thus, the
"Rhetoric" probably appears in reasonably full form before the
"Analytics" and after the "Topics". So, it's an earlier work, but not
the starting point, as you contend.
Where did Aristotle concentrate on "willing in court" as you say? As a
metic in Athens, he would have had no right to appear in court. As an
advisor to those Athenians that did appear in court to argue, he could
have been their sophistic lawyer, but that role of an advisor that you
impute goes against the method and teaching of Socrates, Plato, and
the whole rest of the Academy. You say "two directions", but "all
aimed at willing in court". So did Aristotle pursue only "two"
theoretical directions? Well, no, that's not true. How could his
"Physics" or "Parts of Animals" or the "History of Animals" or the
"Metaphysics" or "Meteorologica" or "Generation of Animals" or any
number of physical, social, metaphysical, dialectical, or historical
works be relevant in a court of law? What about his works on comedy
and tragedy? What about his lost dialogues? Useful in court, handbooks
for lawyers?! That's just nonsense.
Aristotle worked dililgently to organize Plato's Academy,
> which he entered when he was 18 and Plato 60,
Aristotle was 17.
and the main effort of
> the academy, like the sophists befor them, was to teach rich young
> men how to defend themselves in court, the Athenian General Assembly
> of all Citizens, and protect their fortunes from lawsuits.
Well, this just does not jibe with Plato's arguments against
rhetoricians in almost all of his works. Plato was the founder and
head of the Academy, by the way.
You seem to be confusing Aristotle with a figure such as Demosthenes.
Or even with sophists, who did teach Athenian men how to argue in
court; the sophists were largely metics, though, not natives like
Plato, Xenocrates, and Speusippus. Oh, yeah, Demosthenes defended
others in court, not just himself. And Demosthenes did not defend
himself against a lawsuit, as you you assert, but actually initiated
one himself in order to acquire an inheritance.
Aristotle tried to organize the Academy? You must be joking. He was a
teenager, from Macedonia, the boondocks, dropped into a seminar of
hightly educated older men. He was probably a bright, obedient
disciple, and he organized nothing except perhaps his trips to the
latrine for many years. Nobody listens to someone in their 20s, let
alone someone in their teens. Does an American 18 year-old, fresh out
of high school, set out to organize Clare College, Cambridge upon
matriculation? Oh, come on. That's ridiculous. Aristotle did take his
own course, eventually, as we all know. But your chronology sounds
like some kind of comic book conspiracy theory. Are you really
serious?
Young men
> of the day had to become their own lawyers, as being represented by
> professional lawyers would have been prohibited.
Again, what are you talking about? Many Athenians paid handsome
salaries and were educated in rhetoric and aided in court and public
political debate by sophists. Plato's Academy counterposed itself to
this tradition. You have it completely backwards.
Sir Ernest Barker
> mentions that the Natural Law consists of Aristotles Rhetoric, Ethics,
> and the Seven Extant Pages of Zeno of Citrum, Cyprus, and that all
> attmepts at International Law and Comparative Law boil down to the
> Natural Law.
What, not the "Politics"? Not "Athenian Constitution"? Very odd. Well,
enough for now. I might come back to this thread. There are some
teasing half-truths in the remarks below. Where do you get this? Are
you serious?
Thanks,
--Ron
waveletter
I've already responded to the first paragraph of James's post, so let
me have a look at the second paragraph. I hope that it's OK for me to
snip out what I've already addressed. My comments inserted into
James's original reply to my new homepage are below.
On Apr 15, 10:05 pm, "Zeno777" <JamesThompso...@gmail.com> wrote:
[snip 1st paragraph]
> Xeno, like Socrates, was a poor boy could not affford to attend the
> paid lectures of Aristotle,
Who is "Xeno"? I guess you must mean Zeno of Citium. There are hardly
any other "Xeno"s in ancient Greek philosophy. You can't mean
Xenocrates, can you? He wasn't poor, and he was not taught by a Cynic,
and--indeed--he later became head of the Academy. And you can't mean
Zeno of Elea, because he wasn't even there.
But Zeno of Citium was not poor. He had been a merchant, according to
tradition.
Well, I don't know how to extricate historical fact from your post,
except to describe, in brief, some of what we know of Xenocrates of
Plato's Academy; Zeno of Citium, whom I think you are referring to
here; briefly, Zeno of Elea, whom I think your are not referring to
here (correct me, if I'm wrong!); and Eudoxus of Cnidus, who seems to
match better than all of the aforementioned, by the characteristics
you ascribe, even though the name doesn't match. I'll do this in
subsequent posts.
So, for the rest of you, this will turn out to be a rather historical
thread. I'll get back to the modern interpretation of Aristotle's
logic in a day or so.
Thanks!
--Ron