Budget Update

[Karl Matthews]

Hi everyone,

The finance team has been working away and we have come up with our first clear indication of where we are at after this years event.

We are 95% sure that we a looking at a pre tax net surplus of about 12k. This already incorporates a 2k donation to the fire service and assumes spending of $5k for Summit and incorporates payment of the carbon offsets of $2477.80.

So now we have to decide where we want to go from here.

We are looking at a 30% tax bill on that 12k at the end of the financial year, so it would be wise of us to lay out for as much of our projected costs for next years event now and think of infrastructure that we can buy now and store for next year.

Our first priority is to nail down out dates for the summit and try spend as much of the summit related expenses as possible before April. As soon as we lock in a date we can be invoiced for the lodge.

We also need to call a vote and decide if we would like to go ahead  with the fire service donation.

And we need to decide if we would like to donate our carbon offset to the same organisation as we did last year (separate thread).

Now we have to decide how much of our surplus we would like to spend. This event we started with about 23k in the account at the start of our cycle. This lasted until we made our first withdraw from Cosmic of about 32k. We had more pre festival costs this year but that money lasted until after the festival, even though things did get a little tight.

The finance team would recommend that we increase our reserves by about 4k to help with extra pre festival expenses. Remember this is 5k net surplus AFTER tax, and the Governmet allows 1k tax free.

So now for the fun part, how are we going to spend about 7k before the end of March, if we decide that 5k is the right amount to grow our reserves by?

So the floor is open to any suggestions. I know I have a pretty long list.

The actuals budget spread sheet is just being tidied up by the finance team now and will be posted here soon. 

Cheers!

Karl

[Isa Ritchie]

Golf carts?

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[Ashleigh Easton]

I'm sure there will be heaps of really sick and important suggestions made, I can't wait to hear them! Mine are all just nice extras that would be sweet but aren't top priority... Money-left-over type stuff.

A projector - $600ish on trademe - for movie nights, karaoke, photo shows etc pre event for crew then at centre camp during the event! can also be used at the summit (waggles eyebrows)

A stretch marquee - couple thousand - for kitchen/centre camp. this may be a year or two early but we should definitely invest in one of these!

Microsoft Office Suite subscription - $16 a month for up to 5 devices. I know this has been discussed before and a lot of you prefer to use open-source software but there are a few of us who will tear our fucking hair out so just thought I'd bring it up again.

Cards Against Humanity - up to $100 - for crew morale inc summit!! Soooo fun!!!

[Albert Hopley]

I like the idea of a stretch marquee but thought they were a bit more expensive?

[Shelley Watson]

like the idea of a stretch marquee too, and a golf cart would be cool. I'd love us to invest in some really nice colourful and fun flags like this https://www.facebook.com/flagfiesta?fref=ts for greeters and the paddock entry gates, and general use around paddock - they always add colour and movement and fun :-)

[Pete Wyatt]

one of my awesome festival friends, she has the best selection of flags in the country, ideally we want some bamboo poles 8 metres or more long to fly them from so storage of the poles would have to be worked out, they are best erected with 2 or 3 warratahs to hold each one and then wire and tape, I have been on the flag erection team at several fesivals over the years.

On Sat, Feb 14, 2015 at 10:28 AM, Shelley Watson <she...@design.gen.nz> wrote:

like the idea of a stretch marquee too, and a golf cart would be cool. I'd love us to invest in some really nice colourful and fun flags like this https://www.facebook.com/flagfiesta?fref=ts for greeters and the paddock entry gates, and general use around paddock - they always add colour and movement and fun :-)

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[Wendy]

Is it worth having a look at some of the budget items from last year that we dropped in favour of buying the gennie?

I agree that a stretch tent of our own would be dead useful.

[Karl Matthews]

I don't think we dropped anything in favor of the gennie.

Just a bit more info on the stretch tent - Dre's one that we used this year was bought in Australia for about 3k and he spent about $500 sending it over to NZ. This is just the tent and not the poles. So that will be about $3500.

This would be a big purchase and something we should think about carefully before we decide to do it.

I would like to buy another gene, a 2 kva honda inverter for odd jobs around site and to run power for the very early crew and the very late crew who don't really need to run the big one. It would also be handy if either Effigy or temple want to run lighting during the event. It would also mean we wouldn't have to hire a second one.

The will be selling them at Northland field days in Dargaville for $2,495, which is a good price. It will come with a 5 year warranty and Ryan Stuve said he would be happy to buy one for us and store it at his house.

I would also like to spend a few hundred dollars on leads and plug boxes. However this could potentially wait and be worked into next years budget.

If we could invest more on solar and lighting equipment that would be good too.

The kitchen desperately needs a calafont for water heating. I think these are $500-600? Maybe we could buy two and make a crew shower?

We had issues with out STMS traffic person this year and I would recommend we never rely on him again. This is a critical part of our resource concent and would meant a $10,000 fine if we were caught not doing it properly. I think it is time that we had one of our crew trained to do the job. Patrick Norton from MPW seems to be the logical person to do it. We could book this in before April. I'm not sure how much this costs.

There was talk of buying town hall a PA system this year but I don't think it happened. There need to be one so this could go on the list.

There is also a bunch of hand tools that need to be bought for build. These are easy to get and store. Ryan an get 30% off with his farmlands card at bunnings, and he is happy to store them. These are things that will be bought next year if we don't get them now.

Flags sound good and there actually is a budget for them that wasn't spent this year.

A golf cart would be to expensive I think and we will have the issue of where to put it.

I'm not sure we really need a projector, but I could be convinced I guess.

[Poppy Norman]

I don't think we should rush into buying a stretch tent, Andreas mentioned he could be keen to sell us his later in the year potentially.

I agree with the need to purchase an inverter, leads, plug boxes and hand tools. I think these items should be the priority. 

Also agree with purchasing more lighting and solar equipment. 

Two califonts would be ideal, the ones I was looking at were $300 to $400 but need to talk with Ryan more about what we need.

The STMS training is $900-$1000 - I think this should also be a priority. Pat is keen to do it. 

A centre camp PA and flags are also a great idea. 

Agree with Karl re: golf cart - although we really do need someway for the site managers to get around. 

I can't really see how we could justify getting a projector when there are so many other more important things we need. 

[Isa Ritchie]

Do we want to spend as much of the surplus as possible (in sensible ways) so that we avoid tax?

Maybe if we draw up a list of things in order of priority we can see how far it would stretch.

[Wendy]

That makes a lot of sense Isa.  I don't feel specifically qualified to prioritise need for operations-based equipment, but I'd be looking at this as a general principle:

1.  Things that have been suggested because their absence is glaringly obvious (ie the califonts, traffic training, tools)

2.  Things that will reduce workload on onsite teams or make life easier (ie spare gennie, transport for site manager)

2.  Things that are nice to have but we could do without if necessary (ie centre camp PA, stretch tent)

[Hippie Tim]

I think we should spend a bunch of this on improving our volunteer base and getting our subcommittees together for training and getting shit done!

I think the Kiwiburn Conference idea should be mooted again and perhaps we could apply for funding again.

I also think it may be a really good idea for us (if we plan to stay and not-for-profit and not become a charity) would be to move our IRD balance date to September or when ever time we start sales for the next event. This would mean that we have much longer to spend this money and make decesions and think it makes a lot more sense that way. It would mean that our new financial year would start with the sales on the next event. It is possible to do so and the information on this can be found here: http://www.ird.govt.nz/technical-tax/standard-practice/general/sps-2009-gnl-0804-election-to-change-balance-date.html

[Wendy]

I agree re: changing our tax date if this is possible.

[Isa Ritchie]

That's a really good idea

[Karl Matthews]

I will look more into changing the balance date. I agree with the idea and think we should go ahead with it, but if it is not possible for this year we are still in the same boat.

Can't hurt to to start a thread about the conference idea. I like the idea.

[Mark Stirling]

Harping back to the stretch tent idea... I think our own center camp tent should be a good use of some of the surplus.

[Pete Wyatt]

we should also check with the STMS training how long the license is valid before they need to do a refresher course etc, with some of these licenses you need to update every couple of years

[Karl Matthews]

It wouldn't make a difference if we did it in April or May or in December, we will still get the same amount of events out of the training.

[Pete Wyatt]

just saying that we may find that every couple of years we have to spend another $1000 to keep the STMS licensed user up to date

[Poppy Norman]

Pat will need to do a one day TC course which costs $250 plus GST and then he needs to wait a month before he can do the STMS course which cost $500 plus GST.

Both qualifications last three years.

[Wendy]

Worth it IMO.

[Poppy Norman]

Spending $900 on this every three years is bugger all in the scale of things. 

Like Karl said we cannot rely on our current person and we risk a $10'000 fine if we don't do it right. 

[Jax Watt]

I reckon its worth it too

[Bruce Scanlon]

>I also think it may be a really good idea for us (if we plan to stay and not-for-profit and not become a charity) would be to move our IRD balance date to September or when ever time we start sales for the next event.

Hey there, Kathy mentioned you were talking about changing the fiscal year. 

On a tangential but related topic, I don't know if you have done this yet but you need to go through a procedure to authorize an individual to talk to the IRD about kiwiburn matters.

I did call the IRD once and talk about changing the tax year.  The person I talked to was rather hostile and suspicious about our motives.  What this person told me was that basically the IRD wants to see the income and the expenses for an operational cycle occur in the same tax year, and since this is already the case for us, he was discouraging of an attempt to change our fiscal year, and more or less accused me of wanting to do it for purposes of reducing our tax, which is not a valid reason to do so from their perspective.

Your mileage may vary.

Bruce :-)

[Karl Matthews]

Thanks for that Bruce.

The finance team have discussed it and we think it is a possibility for the future but there it might be harder than initially thought. Given our current work load and limited time to d it in we have decided this isn't feasible for this tax year.

Given Bruce's experience I'm not sure it is really an option. Given that we cannot change the date for "tax differential or avoidance" which is basically what we are doing, I'm reluctant to send anyone on a wild goose chase the will create a big work load without any promise of success.

And given we have a full month and a half to work out where we want to do some spending, I think it isn't so bad.

I think the better option would be to revisit becoming a charity.

[Wendy]

I have some ethical concerns about attempting to become a charity, but I'm willing to be persuaded.  And fair enough on the decision re: tax.

I was planning on putting up a summary of what's been discussed so far sometime over the weekend, and then maybe we can get onto the nitty gritties of prioritising and deciding about purchases.

[Wendy]

Just bumping this because we need to get on it if we're to have the money spent by the end of next month.  So far it seems we're more or less in agreement to pursue the traffic training requirements.

Other things that seemed to be prioritised - califonts for the kitchen and tools for MPW.

Next on the list were a spare small gennie, transport for the site manager, and a PA for centre camp (also, flags).

And then there was the stretch tent.

It'd be good to get this discussion done over the next two weeks, so we can vote say on the 15th of March, which will leave another 2 weeks to make the purchases.  Does this work Karl, or would you prefere a shorter discussion time to allow longer for the logistics of purchasing?

[Albert Hopley]

I agree with Wendy's prioritised list, what will the total cost be for these vs. what we want/need to spend?

[Wendy]

From further upthread:

Traffic training $900-$1000

Califonts $300-$400 (each?)

Tools (inverter, leads, plug boxes, hand tools) - ??

Spare gennie $2500

Transport for site manager - ???

PA for centre camp  ??

Stretch tent $3500

Also, Ash suggested Cards Against Humanity ($100), a projector ($600), and MS Office ($192 for a year).

If those in the know could fill in the blanks, that'd be awesome.  We have $7k to spend.  This list totals $8692 with just the things we already have prices for, so it'd be good to get prices on those higher-prioritised things that don't yet have one.

[Karl Matthews]

I would prefer a shorter discussion time as I will have limited internet from March 12.

[Wendy]

Ok, how about one more week for discussion then vote?

[Karl Matthews]

Sounds good

[Shelley Watson]

Lumos, do you think we could we get a good price for a bulk lot of flags from her?

On Sunday, February 15, 2015 at 4:39:21 PM UTC+13, Lumos wrote:

one of my awesome festival friends, she has the best selection of flags in the country, ideally we want some bamboo poles 8 metres or more long to fly them from so storage of the poles would have to be worked out, they are best erected with 2 or 3 warratahs to hold each one and then wire and tape, I have been on the flag erection team at several fesivals over the years.

[Pete Wyatt]

well I would certainly twist her arm her to throw in some free ones or a discount, but good flags don't come cheap, do we have an idea of a budget for flags ?

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[Karl Matthews]

I actually took it out.

How much do you reckon it'll cost?

[Pete Wyatt]

how about we pencil in a budget figure for flags of say $300

[Wendy]

Hey folks,  just a headsup that we've been requested by the finance team to vote on this on Thursday, so we can get on with the job of spending it before the 31st.  Current priorities are:

Traffic training $900-$1000

Califonts $300-$400 (each?)

Tools (inverter, leads, plug boxes, hand tools) - ??

Spare gennie $2500

Transport for site manager - ???

PA for centre camp  ??

Flags for centre camp $300

Stretch tent $3500

Also, Ash suggested Cards Against Humanity ($100), a projector ($600), and MS Office ($192 for a year).

I would like to suggest that if nobody has anything to add to this, we look at setting an amount we want to spend for the MPW tools, inverter etc, and also on the transport for site manager, and then just count back from the top till we hit our $7000 limit.

I'm not any kind of an expert on this so would appreciate recommendations from Ops team as to how much the tools/transport are likely to cost.

[Pete Wyatt]

I suggest the PA for Town hall is removed from the list as it should be able to be purchased within the normal town hall budget next year

[Isa Ritchie]

Sounds good to me

[Hippie Tim]

I feel somewhat uncomfortable with spending money a little willy nilly like this and think that everyone of those line items should have a brief business case attached to them (maybe some of them have and I just missed it?). Some details about why we need it, if it would save us money and if so how much etc would be prudent so that we can make a decision properly.

At the moment it feels like a bit of a lolly scramble.

Having a quick look up it looks to me like the stretch tent and training are quite justified.

Could the people who have suggested the various items please sum up with a brief business case to make it easy for us to justify the spending?

On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 9:23 AM, Pete Wyatt <lum...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Wendy]

Some cases have been made in the thread above for the various items, and my priority list is based on a combination of perceived necessity and popularity of the idea.  Here's a summary, in the words of the people who suggested the item, or paraphrased where more than one person's weighed in.

Traffic training $900-$1000  -this has been an ongoing issue and we need it.  We have someone willing to undertake it

Califonts $300-$400 (each?) - kitchen desperately needs them for water heating. 

Tools (inverter, leads, plug boxes, hand tools) - For the build, already needed and will be bought next year if not now - so doing it now is merely helping with our spending.

Spare gennie $2500 - for odd jobs around site and to run power for the very early crew and the very late crew who don't really need to run the big one. It would also be handy if either Effigy or temple want to run lighting during the event. It would also mean we wouldn't have to hire a second one.

Transport for site manager - we really do need someway for the site managers to get around.

Flags for centre camp $300 - mostly because everyone agrees they are a good idea and they've been in a budget before but never actioned.  Another one that is helping with spending.

Stretch tent $3500 - we've discussed this on and off for years, and now they are more available and affordable, so the idea's cropped up again.

Also, Ash suggested Cards Against Humanity ($100) - for crew morale inc summit!

a projector ($600) - for movie nights, karaoke, photo shows etc pre event for crew then at centre camp during the event! can also be used at the summit 

MS Office ($192 for a year) -  I know this has been discussed before and a lot of you prefer to use open-source software but there are a few of us who will tear our fucking hair out so just thought I'd bring it up again.

I did note your suggestions Hippie, but they do look more like items that would take time to organise (like who needs training in what), and would perhaps be better off as budget items.  This is part of the reason why I think it's important that we all pay a bit more attention to Kathy's offer to get the ball rolling on moving the tax date - so we have the luxury of taking our time deciding on end of year spending.  

Another option is to make an executive decision to put all these items into next year's budget and take the tax hit for this year.

Whichever way, we don't have the luxury of time and need to make the decisions quickly.  I hope the above info helps.

[Albert Hopley]

Thanks, Wendy. Looks good. Do we know how much the tax hit will be if we decide to put these in next year's budget?

[Wendy]

It'd be whatever the tax is on the $7000 extra - I don't know the exact rate but probably about 30% of that?  Karl?

[Pete Wyatt]

I believe that there are more than enough good items on the list to spend the $7000 so that we don't just throw money away about $2000 to the tax man

I think that "Transport for site manager" needs to be left out at this point as we have talked about it before and there are too many expensive options to be sorted thru and we would not be able to make a reasonable decision in the short time we have available

some of the items like "MSoffice" will get use over the year leading up to the event and should be spent now, others will probably be purchased in the run up to the next event if they are not purchased now

[Wendy]

I tend to agree about moving the site manager transport down the priority list - but I fully acknowledge that I'm not the one doing the job and that getting around the site on foot disadvantages the people who are.  I think maybe it's worth discussing as a budget item for next year, which would give us time to consider exactly what we'd want and how much to spend.  I also think the conference idea is worthy of consideration as a budget item.

[Hippie Tim]

Thanks for that Wendy.

Site Manager vehicle has been an ongoing issue and is going to take more time than we have to discuss. One note on this though is that Splore hire their's from here http://www.ezgo.co.nz/rentals/ for about $350 for the week. Could be a very good option to be included in next years budget.

I would say we only need 1 califont and I would prioritise a centre camp structure for $3500 over a gennie as the savings would be greater in the long term from not paying $1000 a year in hire costs.

[Shelley Watson]

I wasn't envisaging flags to be for centre camp - more for entrances to fields etc so there is a sense of excitement created as people arrive. I think flags help create a 'festival' or event feel. There was no pricing on the website so I hope $300 is enough - might need a bit more than that as would be great to have them spread across the site?

[Karl Matthews]

Fact is were aren't really going to be able to make the stretch tent happen before March 31. It is going to take some research and someone to actually receive and store and send in Australia which I'm not in a position to do and I'm not sure anyone else is either. This is not a simple buy. Again I want to highly recommend we don't think about buying the stretch tent now. I'm not yet even convinced it is the best option for centre camp and I think if we were going to buy something the size we had this year was to small for a really good functioning space when it is given the attention it deserves.

That $3500 is a very nominal number. $3000 for the tent and $500 for shipping. I would also like to point out the it wasn't shipped with its poles, and dre has just got a new set made for it.

The one we had this year was a 12 x 12 meter. Burning Seed use a 20 x 20 which gives a much better area for a functioning space. Burning Seed have also just bought a 15 x 15 meter that they got cheep from Africa Burn, It is huge and takes about 4 people to move it. I think that will cost significantly more to ship and buy, not even taking into account the poles.

So if we do this right we could be looking at close to 4-5k in reality.

We also have the issue of storage. This is something that has stopped us buying marquees in the past. If anything is stored even slightly wet, or in a container the has anything in it that is slightly wet then it will get mouldy and we are in deep shit. Given the nightmare we had with mould this year it would be stupid to store something brand new and expensive in the containers on site before we have seen if the prosecutions we have taken have worked.

Please can we take our time on this one to think it though clearly and make the right decision? We can work it into next years budget.

As for the generator, I think it is a no brainier. The use we will get out of it for work weekends, very early and very late crew, jobs around site and emergency power to operational departments like gate greeters and centre camp will be priceless. It might not get used all the time but it will be invaluable and also almost indestructible. The fact that they have such long warranties is also important. It will also take out any need for us to hire anything anymore.

I love the idea of hiring  golf cart! Didn't realise they were so cheep, that should defiantly go into the budget for next year. Nice one.

Can't see a reason to not get two califonts if means we can have crew showers. As someone that is part of the early crew I'm pretty sick of not being able to have that pretty basic and easy to create comfort. We have ample running water now so it is even easier. Fact is people are making a sacrifice to be working on this and we should be doing everything we can to make the experience as good as possible for everyone.  

     

[Wendy]

I agree on both the gennie and the califonts.  I actually think we're doing ourselves a disservice if we only look at monetary value and savings.  I'm keen to spend money to make the lives of everyone who volunteers easier, because that job not sucking is really helpful to volunteer retention.

Anyway, if we were to incorporate the suggestions from today, and separating things that appear of more value from those that are controversial or not deemed necessary,  it'd look something  like this (transport for site manager has been removed in the assumption that most folks would support hiring this at this point):

Traffic training $900-$1000

Califonts $300-$400 (each?)

Tools (inverter, leads, plug boxes, hand tools) - ??

Spare gennie $2500

Flags for centre camp $300

MS Office ($192 for a year).

At this point the total spend would be $4800 without the tools element.  It'd be really good to get a ballpark on that, because if it's around $2000 we might just have our list, more or less.

Here are the things that haven't had a lot of support.  The CoH would be nice if we've a hundred or so left over to spend.

Cards Against Humanity ($100)

Stretch tent $3500

 a projector ($600)

It sounds to me like the stretch tent should be a one-off, planned purchase.  Like if we were to decide that we'll buy one in X year, then plan for it.

[Pete Wyatt]

I agree with Karls points about the stretch tent, (bigger would be better and storage can be a pain) the generator and golf cart

I am open to the idea of 2 caifonts for hot water, I guess that does give us backup systems for hot water and it would be nice to give the hard working crews a hot shower

[Isa Ritchie]

Do we know what tools are required? I recall a few people getting really frustrated about not having decent tools and things this year. Having good tools makes a lot of sense and would also help with improving volunteer experience.

[Wendy]

The ones in the list (inverter, leads, plug boxes, unspecified hand tools) are the only ones that have been mentioned in this thread.  I too would like more info on this, preferably with estimated prices - cos now's the time to get these things if we need them!

[Hippie Tim]

With Karls comments I'm happy to put the tent to the side for now and think 2 califonts is fine but one would be enough to rig both as well.

[Albert Hopley]

I see Karls points and agree with Wendy's summation.

[Karl Matthews]

Hey all,

here is the the budget actuals spreadsheet as promised a while ago, sorry for the delay.

​

 Kiwiburn 2015 Actuals

​

As you can see down the bottom in row 104 we are looking at a net cash movement before tax of about 11k. We decided earlier that we would like to keep about 5k so we have a slightly revised figure of 6k to spend ASAP.

My personal recommendation would be;

Gene - $2,500

Califont (maybe just one) - $600

STMS class - $900

Tools - I'll look into costing these and report back.

Flags - $300

I think everything else mentioned is valid and can be worked into the budget for next year.

 

[Wendy]

I agree with the above but see no reason not to get a second califont if our budget allows it, and would also recommend getting the Office suite for the team.  They've asked for it two years in a row and it's not a huge expense to stop some of our most valuable people from going nuts.

[Pete Wyatt]

thanks for the updated spreadsheet Karl

I agree with Wendy about the MSOffice as it is only a small amount and some of our team need access to it ASAP

also agree with Karl on the other spending priorities

[Albert Hopley]

I agree with Wendy and Pete

[Wendy]

OK so we are supposed to vote on this today.  I feel like we've mostly reached agreement, but there are still a couple of things that aren't clear.  Here's what I think we've agreed on:

We have $6000 to spend.

Spare generator - $2,500

Califont - $600

STMS class - $900

Flags - $300

MSOffice $200

Total: $4500

That leaves $1500.  We have agreed that we need tools but don't have a price for them, and there's a question mark over the second califont.  

I'd like to suggest the following:

Tools $900

Califont $600

If the necessary tools come back at more than $900, we don't worry about the second califont.  

I'll leave this thread open until tomorrow, but we are fast running out of time so tomorrow we have to decide one way or another.

[Pete Wyatt]

sounds good, I agree with Wendy

[Albert Hopley]

Same here, agree with Wendy

[Shelley Watson]

btw, creative commons is free under a CC license if someone wanted to print it and make it: 

http://cardsagainsthumanity.com 

[Ashleigh Easton]

I have done that in the past Shelley, it's a lot of work and does not last. After playing with real cards recently I'm totally convinced paying is worth it.

Btw, the original deck is only $30 - $100 is for all the expansion packs too. That's why I said "up to $100". So we can get the basic pack of people prefer.

On Saturday, 7 March 2015, Shelley Watson <she...@design.gen.nz> wrote:

btw, creative commons is free under a CC license if someone wanted to print it and make it: 

http://cardsagainsthumanity.com 

--

[Shelley Watson]

good to know :-)