Nuts and Bolts Discussion: Conduct committee

[ben curran]

Okay. There's a bunch of stuff we need to sort out for this before we make it active. 

Firstly, where does this sit in the organisational structure? When I was initially thinking about this, i envisioned it sitting outside the usual operational structure of KB. Geveta brought up the point that there's probably no need for that, which is true. As a group/department/whatever, they'll still need support from excom/the bods at the top of whatever the new structure is. In which case, where does it go? 

One of the other points Geveta (I think) made was that there should be an excom member on it. For the record, I disagree with this. The idea of handling everything separately is that the committee and the excom are checks on each others power. I doubt that it would ever occur, but, for the sake of thoroughness, we should then think about what happens when excom doesn't want to carry out the committee's recommendations.  I don't, I think, have any objection to a member of excom being part of the conduct committee, but they shouldn't officially be wearing both hats at the same time. I'd suggest something along the lines of if that happens, then that person has to either recuse themselves from the investigation completely or recuse themselves from the excom vote enacting the recommendations of the committee.  

Getting people to be one the committee. I've spoken to Hanna/Kylie and they're happy to post a small blurb to the woman's group asking for volunteers/recommendations. We should probably, at some point in time soon, make a general announcement about what we're doing so we can ask for recommendations for people to be on it, though we should have at least a page or so talking about what we're trying to do together first (working on it). I have ideas/text for this but don't want to go getting ahead of myself.    

We need to compile a list of what training people who will be on it will need. So far - RPE and conflict resolution. Any other suggestions?

Do we want a code of conduct for participants? Whole bunch of documentation for what the committee will deal with. I'm guessing we don't have a staging server for putting up drafts of policy so we can work on so I guess I'll start some google docs. 

As an aside, we need to figure out how we go about putting a workshop out for the general community, though that's probably a separate thread on it's own. 

The chances of me not missing something blindingly obvious are small. What else do we need to talk about with this?

[Jamie Ryan]

Number of people on the committee.

Requirements of the committee members.

Ways to remove and replace people.

Possible time frame for decisions.

[Jamie Ryan]

If we are including the conduct committee in the structure then it would naturally fall under the site safety facilitator. Or, as that is a large role, the crew facilitator could oversee this as they have easy access to volunteer lists and the conduct committee will be formed with their help anyway.

Can we tie it in with the VolCor software once the conduct committee makes final decisions on an individual/s? If access to certain groups of people can be limited then this software will provide security of information and easy organisation.

[Geveta Cook]

I would like to see the conduct committee have its own Lead facilitator that sits outside of these existing headings as a large role, this would help it appear independent from other operations too.

Not sure about VolCor, I've been thinking of how the committee could set up its information securely - ooh this may be better switched to the conduct committee thread actually. 

Sent from my iPhone

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "kiwiburnExComLIVE" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to kiwiburnexcoml...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[Jo Artemis]

I'm a bit unsure of putting out a general call for members. This will be dealing with highly sensitive information so the people involved need to be fully known and trusted. You suggested at summit, and i agree, that it would be good to have a balance of genders. Already Tanya, Poppy (i think so yes?) and myself have already shown keen to be involved. How does this committee get put together? Is it an ExCom vote to decide who's on it? 

[ben curran]

A general call out for members does not automatically mean someone gets on it. Anyone getting on it would have to be known and trusted, yes, but I don't see the harm in asking for recommendations from people. Also, I think the community should be aware of/onboard with/be a part of the process of putting something like this together. 

As for excom voting who gets on it. Yeah. Totally. Letting something like this be decided by an open vote of whoever leaves it wide open to abuse. If you've got a better idea than excom putting it together from a pool of people trusted by excom and the community, that'd be great. It's the best I've managed to come up with so far though. 

Actually. Poppy's role on the committee, should, I suspect be ... a special role. I'd possibly suggest that the head of ops should be on the committee as a source of information/witness/participant in discussions but not someone actively involved in running investigations of specific people. I don't think that sounds unreasonable. I could be wrong. 

As for specific ideas of who's on it. No. Which is why I want recommendations from the community. 

[Geveta]

The committee needs conduct policy, absolutely.

I understand Jos comment about a general call out being tricky. This goes back to what Karl and Holly were discussing about screening people during the application process.

It's also important that we remember to go outside of woman's groups for sources (keep in mind the committee will handle theft, assaults, destruction of property, intimidation etc.).

Jeanette spoke at summit about her background as a drug and alcohol councillor, I think she has a good background for the conduct committee.
Personally, I would like to see Jeanette Lead the committee, due to her background, and that she is new blood as it were to the ExCom anyhow (non bias as she has only just met most of us).

[Geveta Cook]

Agreed that ExCom should vote for members.

- at least initial members.

Sent from my iPhone

[Pete Wyatt]

I agree with Geveta and we need some suitable males to balance the group

[ben curran]

The womans group is only one place we should be communicating this. I'd suggest the corresponding mens group, but to be honest, it's pretty dead. Other forums that we should be communicating to about this? The main KB facebook group, yeah. What else have we got? 

Going out to the groups is not a general free for all. It'd be trying to find recommendations for people. At the moment we've got a few people. No chaps. And no one is suggesting other people that we could potentially shoulder tap. Which is why, unless someone can come up with a balanced list of names a dozen people long, that I would suggest:

a) let the various forums know what we're doing. We have to do this anyway. 

b) ask for recommendations for people. 

c) come up with a list. Go through and find people we know and trust and approach them. 

d) train them. 

Which ever way we do it, we're at risk of getting problematic people who talk the talk. We make every effort to make sure that they don't get on it, and we have mechanisms in place for if they do. 

 

On Thursday, May 25, 2017 at 4:20:38 PM UTC+12, Lumos wrote:

I agree with Geveta and we need some suitable males to balance the group

On Thu, 25 May 2017 at 4:00 PM, Geveta Cook <gevet...@hotmail.com> wrote:

Agreed that ExCom should vote for members.

- at least initial members.

Sent from my iPhone

> On 25/05/2017, at 3:58 PM, Geveta <geve...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> The committee needs conduct policy, absolutely.
>
> I understand Jos comment about a general call out being tricky. This goes back to what Karl and Holly were discussing about screening people during the application process.
>
> It's also important that we remember to go outside of woman's groups for sources (keep in mind the committee will handle theft, assaults, destruction of property, intimidation etc.).
>
> Jeanette spoke at summit about her background as a drug and alcohol councillor, I think she has a good background for the conduct committee.
> Personally, I would like to see Jeanette Lead the committee, due to her background, and that she is new blood as it were to the ExCom anyhow (non bias as she has only just met most of us).
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "kiwiburnExComLIVE" group.

> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to kiwiburnexcomlive+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "kiwiburnExComLIVE" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to kiwiburnexcomlive+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

[Geveta Cook]

ExCom will need to start a private thread for this discussion.

I agree with recommendations being passed forwards as well as a call out.

Sent from my iPhone

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to kiwiburnexcoml...@googlegroups.com.

[ben curran]

Excom involvement in the committee. This is a thing that needs to be discussed. Two points of view have been expressed so far. 

1) That excom members should not be involved in the conduct committee. Or that there should be at most 1 excom member on the committee. If there is 1 person involved, they should recuse themselves from voting on the outcome of any investigation that they have participated in. Limiting excom's involvement means that the two bodies are checks on each others power. Excom can't ban without a recommendation. CC can't ban at all. The two should be at arms length. The more overlap there is, the less distance there is between the two bodies. 

2) I was going to try and summarise the reasons for mandating that an excom member be on the CC but in doing so, I realise I don't know what the reasons for this are, only that some of us think it's important. Sorry. Geveta? Could you summarise the reasons you think there should be an excom member on the CC? 

Anyone else got views?

[Geveta Cook]

Sure.

I'd like to see the Lead of the Conduct committee be a member of ExCom (like the other Team Leads under the new org structure)

- be conduct committee representative for/to ExCom

- be the contact member for sharing info (actions to present to ExCom for voting)

- being the conduct committee link (loosely of course), but represented as a part of the Kiwiburn organisation (rather than an entirely unaffiliated block)

- share info through other team leads (Admin Secretary, web, maybe volunteer coordinators) such as email addresses to de/activate, forward, updating Volcore for public addresses (non anonymous)

 - to relay possible areas for improvement around incidents to ExCom to feed down through org structure

Sent from my iPhone

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to kiwiburnexcoml...@googlegroups.com.

[Rainbow Ronan]

i disagree with this idea of excom and conduct committee being checks on each others power. its make them sound like potential run away banks before a financial crisis. exactly how would they check each others power anyway? if it does ever descend into chaos then why would either group listen to the other anyway. i think its more important to get the right people for the job, then we know its not all going to go pear shaped

i also don't like the idea of the excom being the one that carries out the conduct committees recommendation. if we are giving the committee all the info, and that info is not shared beyond that committee then what they decides goes. i think they should be able to issue warnings, ban people etc with no excom input at all. under the new proposed structure i think they should operate as a separate entity that reports back to the excom and to the community. if we are trusting people with sensitive info, then we have to trust their decision. the only time excom should be involved is if someone expresses that a member of the committee being excluded from their incident for what ever reason

def think a 50/50 split between boys an girls is very important. and lets not talk about a lead for the committee till we know who is on it

[Jamie Ryan]

I would like to see a 'no confidence mechanism' put into place for all roles with responsibilities.

If this is in place I would be happy to extend trust to the Conduct Committee so it can act autonomously (even if it has to be voted on by ExCom).

For clarification, does ExCom have to officially vote and provide legal backing to any action the Conduct Committee recommends?

On the issue of number of Conduct Committee members a 50/50 gender split is important but means there can be a deadlock on a decision. To prevent this, some way to decide the deadlock needs to be in place to prevent an investigation dragging out beyond a reasonable time (this also needs discussion). 

To prevent a protracted investigation any decision should be by majority vote not consensus.

> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to kiwiburnexcoml...@googlegroups.com.

> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "kiwiburnExComLIVE" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to kiwiburnexcoml...@googlegroups.com.

For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "kiwiburnExComLIVE" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to kiwiburnexcoml...@googlegroups.com.

For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "kiwiburnExComLIVE" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to kiwiburnexcoml...@googlegroups.com.

For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "kiwiburnExComLIVE" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to kiwiburnexcoml...@googlegroups.com.

[Geveta Cook]

I'm of the mind that ExCom should be the acting body to carry out the actual vote and resulting actions (warning letters, banning procedures).

This protects the committee and also provides a more solid front of delivery  (sent straight from the org heads themselves).

Sent from my iPhone

[Geveta Cook]

Edit for clarity: the above would be done when committee hands over there proposed recommendations of action from their investigation. 

Sent from my iPhone

On 31/05/2017, at 2:29 PM, Jamie Ryan <jamie.p...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Jnette Saxby]

Jeanette here,

thinking about the conduct committee. Perhaps there could a few or quite a few people on the conduct committee so when these situations arise there is a choice of rational level headed people to formulate a solution. So there may be a pool of able bodied people to use when needed. As a women i may not want to discuss my assault with a man or i may feel only a man can handle my problem.  I envisage the solution to be something like a restorative justice system or arrangement as this seems to be along the principals of the burning man. The use of the words "power" and where in the" heirachical structure this is" does not seem very important as to deciding on a progressive and fair way to resolve conflict without being ugly and heavy with people. 

i also feel a bit like Marla , unsure how to go about stuff. Like i know of a person who wants to be a volunteer , but im not sure how much time he spends on a computer... not all people are fans of computers.. so my second question is , what direction do i point a really skilled volunteer who may not spend much time online..he is a blacksmith/certified welder with portable welding set up... and i have suggested he may want to come for the whole burn. He may also help create a portal for greeters... i just don,t know who to ask or how to go about the process..

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "kiwiburnExComLIVE" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to kiwiburnexcomlive+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

[Geveta Cook]

Jeanette - definitely get your person to contact the volunteer coordinators listing there skills and interests. If they do not have a specific role they are looking at this is the best way to have their merits stored for future reference when something does arise :)

 I feel that there definitely must be a Team Lead or admin role within the conduct committee for the purpose of info sharing and keeping track of all members and there details.

Sent from my iPhone

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to kiwiburnexcoml...@googlegroups.com.

[Pete Wyatt]

you have some good points Jeanette, we have some pretty good information streams going out and allowing burners to connect on the internet and Facebook but we have not done enough for the others, some of whom I know do not like using computers and Facebook.

I guess the important thing is to speak up if you don't know !

[Pete Wyatt]

the excom is the executive body that heads Kiwiburn and has the power and responsibilities, they already administer the banning process for participants etc and I believe the Conduct committee should make their recommendation to the excom but the excom would need to have a good reason to not follow that recommendation.

As was suggested earlier this provides some checks and balances in the process

[Pete Wyatt]

Jamie - what is the problem with me talking about the possible structure of the committee ?

On Wed, May 31, 2017 at 6:06 PM, Jamie Ryan <jamie.p...@gmail.com> wrote:

Lumos please recuse yourself from this conversation, unless asked for further information, for reasons of impartiality.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to kiwiburnexcoml...@googlegroups.com.

For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "kiwiburnExComLIVE" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to kiwiburnexcoml...@googlegroups.com.

For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[Jamie Ryan]

Sorry, I posted in the wrong thread. I have deleted the post.

[ben curran]

To answer Nan's points - 

It's important to try and get the right people on the committee both at the start and further down the line. Whatever we do, we're never going to be able to guarantee 100% that the people on the committee are beyond reproach. We're also never going to be able to guarantee that the people on excom are perfect either. So we build a system that is designed to cope with failure. If we do this right, we have to assume that at some point in time, it is going to go completely pear shaped and build to be able to deal with/recover from that. 

Giving all the power to ban/warn to the CC opens up the possibility of abuse of power. If we restrict the CC to making recommendations, then outline a series of reasons for which excom might reject that recommendation then we have a system were the power in the process is split across two bodies that have to be in agreement for anything as serious as a ban to happen.

For example. We could have excom as a sort of final court of appeal. If someone who is about to be banned feels they have been unfairly treated by the CC they can inform excom. Excom could then look to see if the CC followed the correct procedures (not necessarily looking at the details, just making sure that everything was done properly), if excom is happy that everything has been handled properly, appeal rejected. Or if not, then appeal upheld, sort of thing. 

One of the things that Firefly do, is that when a complaint is laid, two people within the CC are designated to the complaint. One person talks to the the people involved, the complainant, the complainer, any witnesses (ops/rangers/bystanders). The other person sits back and makes sure that everyone is getting a fair hearing/procedures are followed. The two people then return to the CC, where a discussion is had and recommendations made. Excom, would have access, if necessary to a report made by the observer. 

TLDR; there's a structure to investigations/bannings/warnings etc that gets laid out, very, very publicly. That structure does not vest complete power in any one group, this is explicitly described to the community as a means to deal with faults in the system. 

[Geveta Cook]

Sounds fair Ben. Building for an 'in case of' or 'worst scenario' moment is essential.

Sent from my iPhone

--

[Pete Wyatt]

I like it, plan for the worst and hope for the best

[ben curran]

Some other thoughts.

Structure:

Lead - communicates recommendations with excom chair

         - conducts investigations, 

         - assigns committee members to new cases. 

         - participates in discussions 

         - votes in committee recommendations. 

         - selected by the conduct committee but requires the formal approval of the group leads, as per any departmental head.

6-7 members -conducts investigations, 

         - participates in discussions 

         - votes in committee recommendations. 

        

Ops representative  - advisory role.  

         - participates in discussions 

         - designated by head of Ops, requires approval of CC lead. 

Maximum of 1 excom member. If there is an excom member on the CC, they do not automatically become the lead and must recuse themselves from excom votes enacting warnings or bans. The responsibilities of each member should be explicitly documented at all times. 

Anyone have any major problems with this?

[Rainbow Ronan]

the Excom already has the power to warn and ban people, how is giving the CC this power any different? and baning people is not the 'power' of the CC, it is the fact they are going to be the ones we trust with the very personal details of very traumatic experiences from people's lifes. how can we trust them with this info but not trust the decision they make using it? what is the point of splitting the power between two bodies when only one body knows what it's talking about? yes allowing people to have some sort of recourse is a good idea but having one body of people who have training and info being able to be over ruled by another body with no training and no info doesn't make any sense to me

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "kiwiburnExComLIVE" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to kiwiburnexcomlive+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

[ben curran]

Try looking at it as one body looking at the facts of the incident (CC), another (excom) being concerned with making sure the proper process has been followed, which in turn, places the judgement of the CC beyond reproach. I'm suggesting that both arriving at the correct decision and the manner in which that decision is arrived at are both important facets of the process. Otherwise you end up with the possibility of a bad egg or someone with a vendetta managing to influence the CC, which in turns reduces the trust that the community has in the process. 

In effect, what we're doing is training the CC to deal with the incidents, essentially deputising the CC to go and find out what's what. Not relinquishing, what is, after all, a fairly hefty power.   

[Jasmine Hunter]

How's this going? Ticketing has received a complaint that we need to submit. Not against ticketing but a complicated related matter. It is not a judgment that myself and Hayley can make. Where shall I forward the email with additional information?

[Kiwiburn Committee Gmail]

Try http://www.kiwiburn.com/contact/

Conduct committee (which I presume if fowarding to ExCom gmail until better established), otherwise through to ExCom tab?

[Shelley Watson]

yup, it forwards to ExCom email address until the gsuite changeover

[Jasmine Hunter]

I forwarded it yesterday FYI

[Jasmine Hunter]

Hey ExCom. When you receive emails it would be really helpful to get some kind of acknowledgement please, otherwise we're all left guessing.

[Geveta Cook]

Noted.

Sent from my iPhone

On 29/11/2017, at 7:57 AM, Jasmine Hunter <morepork...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hey ExCom. When you receive emails it would be really helpful to get some kind of acknowledgement please, otherwise we're all left guessing.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "kiwiburnExComLIVE" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to kiwiburnexcoml...@googlegroups.com.