Draft budget proposal

[Karl Matthews]

The finance team has been working on correlating all the ideas and suggestions for the following financial year into a workable budget, and here it is for your review!

In the spreadsheet attached, all new line items are highlighted in green and all budget increases are highlighted in yellow with the previous amount in the column to the right. 

Right now we have about 24,000 not taking into consideration the aprox $1250 we will have to pay to the IRD in July.

The spreadsheet has two 0% projection columns, the first is based on keeping the tier on sales limited to 200 with extras allowed for crew tickets and local. As you can see this is how it breaks down;

-235 tire one 

-172 tier two 

-352 tier three 

-23 Gate 

This is based on the historical average for the split between the tiers. Based on this we would be looking at $99,936 in revenue.

The second column is the ticket sales adjusted to allow for 250 general sale tickets. I wasn't exactly sure how this would exactly impact the overall distribution of sales so I took the easy rout and just added 50 to tier one and subtracted 50 from tier two, which looks like this;

-285 tier one

-122 tier two

-352 tier three

-23 Gate

Again based on 0% growth, we are looking at $98,406 revenue, a reduction of $1,476. 

At 300 tier one, based on the same assumption that the sales will be directly lost form tier two we are looking at $96,936, a reduction of $3,000.

I would strongly recommend we hold the increase to 250 first tier tickets for this year, if we are going to increase.

Now to run through the main talking points of the budget itself.

Budget line item increases;

- Art Grants +$1,000 ($8,000)

This has bee talked about in the other thread, and seems like an appropriate amount to increase.

-Effigy/Man +$500 ($5000)

-Temple +$1500 ($5000)

There seem to be a feeling to bring these together in terms of funding as the both hole an equally special place for the event. I look at this more as a $2000 increase for both.

-Tools +2500 ($3000)

We did have a budget of $2500 for two or three years previous to 2014. We decided to cut budget items to make room for the extra money needed for the move. We need to make a solid investment this time around.

-Gate/greeters/depot +$300 ea

-MPW +$800 ($2000)

Based on the numbers for this years event MPW is in need of an increase.

-Ute +$700 ($2800)

This is just an increase to include fuel

-Composting toilets $750

Not sure if this is going to happen as a trial but thought it a good idea to put some money aside for it.

The rest is pretty academic. Some items are just automatically increased 10% to give breathing room.

New line items;

Fourth container - $3500

Work weekends -$500

Site improvements - $2000

Compensation for personal vehicle use - $500

Crew support (fluffers) - $500

Clean up - $500

Fire service donation - $300

Mostly self explanatory.

So after all that, based on 0% growth and an increase of 50 first tier tickets we will have approximately $19,000 left in the bank. This is $5,000 less than we have right now but still in a good, solid position.

There are two other budget item requests which are not part of the budget as it stands, these being a new Gate and Depot. Combined they would probably cost about $6000 and are not a necessity for the up coming event but would be a nice boost to the infrastructure. The current Depot would be used as office space for town planning, finance, media etc well the new depot would just be the depot but bigger and better layed out. Gate is old and becoming more and more difficult to construct each year.

I would like to propose that we revisit these in December when we can have full proposals ready and have a gauge on how ticket sales are tracking.

Let loose with any questions, disagreements, additions, comments.

Cheers 

 

  

[Wendy]

Wow Karl, that's awesome. Question - I didn't see the carbon donation in there. This year it was just over $2000. Should it be in there or is it accounted for elsewhere?

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[Karl Matthews]

Its in there in bold just above 'capital items' and below 'bank charges'.

It adjusts automatically with the amount of tickets. It is in there at $2,036

[Poppy Norman]

Yeah boi! Great job finance team!

Okay so comments:

- I think we will need to increase the first aid kit amount, this will need to be confirmed with Paul but I think it will definitely be more than      $150.

- As discussed at the summit the IT team need some money, $100 to $200 maybe?

-  In the column for 15% growth you haven't put in any money for extra toilets, we would need approximately 5 - 6 more toilets so              perhaps put an extra $600 - $1000 

[Ashleigh Easton]

FINANACE TEAM RULES!!!!!!!!! You guys are amazing, thank you!!!

Depot budget is great.
Really impressed with your suggestion of waiting on ticket sale indications in Dec to make the decision on upgrading gate and depot structures.
As Poppy said, the first aid kit may go over $150 depending on what Paul suggests (the St Johns one I'd like to buy is $150AUD which will be slightly more in NZD).

The porto cost will fluctuate with population and Poppy's suggestion is dead on. The figure varies depending on how many portos can fit on the truck meaning we may have to pay for extra delivery and pick-up trips which would be a few hundred bucks.

I would like to see an extra $100 or so for printing some PR material. This year we used the Kiwiburn Thank You cards that Shelley had printed up a while ago to send to local residents and businesses. I really liked them and think they would be worth printing up again. They were from Vistaprint. We could also get business cards printed with the Site Manager phone number to send out with the Resident Notification letters and to give to council members and local businesses.

[Karl Matthews]

Good calls...

Added $1000 for portos to the 15% increase budget

Added $100 to Stickers/postcards/patches - That would be PR right?

Bumped first aid kit to $250

Poppy there is a line item there for office expenses/web hosting which was $100. I have bumped that to $200 and it line item is now office expenses/web hosting/IT.

[Pete Wyatt]

I was just wondering about the MPW increase based on Poppy's recommendation in the afterburn report "This year we had 15 people on MPW. I increased the crew from 10 as I anticipated that we would have an increase in workload due to the site move. Retrospectively I think a crew of 10 would have been sufficient"

[Poppy Norman]

The budget doesn't have anything to do with the number of people on the crew. The increase is based on how much was spent this year and how many of those purchases we will need to make again in 2015 plus any new things we need to get. For example: sunscreen, tarps, rachets, danger tape, pigtails, reflective tape, schwag, work gloves, screws, rope, duct tape, phone & internet, lumber, stereo, lights, rubbish dump fees, gazebo, wheel barrow and a bunch of other stuff. 

[Poppy Norman]

Linus pointed out something regarding the art grant budget.

According to the website we had a $9000 budget for 2014 art grants, not $7000. 

[Wendy]

Ha, thanks for pointing it out Karl.  That'll teach me to read stuff on my phone.

[Isa Ritchie]

The draft budget looks good.  The Greeters structure needs to be expanded to provide more shelter, I am wondering if this comes out of the Greeters budget or somewhere else.

[Jax]

I dont really have anything to add to this conversation but it looks like you have a good handle on things Karl. Two thumbs up.......

[Wendy]

Likewise, I'm happy with the budget as it sits and don't have anything to add.

On 16 June 2014 11:40, Jax <tribalfiree...@gmail.com> wrote:

I dont really have anything to add to this conversation but it looks like you have a good handle on things Karl. Two thumbs up.......

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[Karl Matthews]

Hey again,

I have done another run over with the budget and adjusted the spreadsheet to only include two columns showing 0% growth and 10% growth. I think the general feeling is that we are confident of at least achieving the same attendance as the 2014 event. The spread sheet is factoring in the increase of first tier tickets with the assumption the the loss of revenue will come out of the second tier pool. currently the model is showing 275 tier factoring in some crew tickets, and not local tickets as we don't yet have a clear policy decision on that. 

I have been communicating extensively with Kathy over the past couple of days and we have decided to to stress this point to you all.

At 0% growth we are looking at an end or year bank balance of $19,379 which is $5,020 LESS than the $24,399 we have in the bank right now. 

We need to ask ourselves are we okay with doing this, and if we decide that we aren't then what are we willing to shave to lessen that figure.

Our pre festival expenses were roughly $40,000 for 2014, which is only likely to only increase. We need to maintain at least a roughly $20,000 working capital balance.

I think If we can hold off on the new container until it we can see how ticket sales are tracking that would be good.  There are a couple of other line items that can be reduced if we are looking really bad in December. 

Poppy -- We might have started with that $9000 art grant figure but it defiantly reduced to $7000 by the time the budget was finalised. If it says that on the website it shouldn't. Personally I am comfortable with the $8000 figure we have in this budget seeing as less then $6000 actually got distributed this festival.

Isa -- Do you have any idea how much this would cost? Greeters is getting a $300 bump to $1100, do you think this will be enough to cover you operating and a little expansion?

Have a poke around in the new spread sheet and see what y'all think.

[Poppy Norman]

If you and Kathy think that we need to maintain what we have in the bank right now then I believe you, I don't really have my own opinion on it as the only thing I know about finance is how to spend. 

I don't think it would super hard to reduce the budget by $5000. For example only put man & temple up to $4500 each, reduce gate, greeters, mpw and depot budgets back down by 10%, reduce CAP and innovation grants, remove the budget for the artery as it doesn't exist, reduce the crew appreciation budget, scrap the compost toilet trial etc etc

Basically there are plenty of ways that we can reduce costs if we need too, its just knowing whether we need to that is the hard part for me. 

We could survive without a fourth container if we had too - well if we don't build a new gate or depot that is - although even then I reckon we could make it work somehow.

Re art grants: yeah sweet I wasn't sure about that. I think $8000 is totally adequate. 

Re greeters: I should have a price for the extension sometime soon, I am just currently working with Isa to work out what greeters needs then I will price it up. Its not going to be too costly though - from what I know of greeters costs I would say that $1100 would be more than enough to cover the normal operating costs as well as the extension. 

[Wendy]

I agree there are plenty of things that we could shave if we needed to, and like Poppy I'm not that up on financial wizardry so trusting you guys to know what's best to do.

I think we also need to take into account that the cost for the venue may increase this year.  If we can negotiate that to be a percentage of ticket sales then awesome, but right now we're not sure what form it'll take.

[Karl Matthews]

Hey guys,

Just re-starting this discussion again, sorry for letting it slide for so long, have been busy with other things.

I have attached a new spreadsheet with the Gate and Depot rebuild included.

I have also changed the 'Projected increase to expense across the board' to 3% instead of 10% to give us another perspective.

On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 3:52 PM, Kathy Guidi <kag...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hiya,

Okay, just had a quick looksee.   I am busy tonight and all day tomorrow, but will put together my thoughts to the committee over the weekend.   This is a GREAT first pass at the budget with everyone's wish list items in it. 

-K

On Wed, Jun 18, 2014 at 9:11 PM, Karl Matthews <karldm...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hey Kathy,

I have attached a draft budget with a  3% increase on last years expenses and the Depot and gate rebuild.

On Wed, Jun 18, 2014 at 7:51 AM, Kathy Guidi <kag...@gmail.com> wrote:

See below:

On Tue, Jun 17, 2014 at 9:08 PM, Karl Matthews <karldm...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hey Kathy,

On Tue, Jun 17, 2014 at 7:00 AM, Kathy Guidi <kag...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Good email.  Just want to clarify -- did you put in the extra cost to build a new Gate & Depot?  I see it at the bottom estimated at $6k?

That cost is not included at all really, I'm not sure how to do it a clever way. I figured I would just bring it up again in November when we have a better idea of what's going on.

There's nothing clever about putting it in.  I would just add two lines (do you know how to insert a row into a spreadsheet?) for Depot and Gate rebuild.  This way the budget represents a true picture of the 'wish list' which is the starting point for discussions.
 

>
> Also, look at cell I9 -- it currently says 10% and that was just something I threw in there to bump up last year's costs by this amount for this year.    You could bump that down to 5%....  it's just a figure to use to say 'what if expenses increased 5 or 10% across the board?.....

Oh cool thats a great idea, I will have a play around with that and maybe put a new spread sheet up

I would put it in a 3% and let's see what the spreadsheet looks like then.

>
> I will send a note to the ExCom with my thoughts once you answer my question above.....

Go for it, I won't really be around online until tomorrow night

I'll wait until you do another version of the budget.  Happy to review it before you send to Excom if you like.

-K

 

>
> -K

Good email.  Just want to clarify -- did you put in the extra cost to build a new Gate & Depot?  I see it at the bottom estimated at $6k?

Also, look at cell I9 -- it currently says 10% and that was just something I threw in there to bump up last year's costs by this amount for this year.    You could bump that down to 5%....  it's just a figure to use to say 'what if expenses increased 5 or 10% across the board?.....

I will send a note to the ExCom with my thoughts once you answer my question above.....

-K

[Wendy]

Just to let you know I heard from Andrea today, they will be getting back to us in the next few days about the contract, so we may be able to reflect that accurately in the budget soon.

[Karl Matthews]

Sweet as,

[Hippie Tim]

Sorry it's taken me a while to look at this.

Being the fiscally conservative person I am I muddled with the spreadsheet and added a column for a decrease in participants by 10% to see what would come up. Even though I know some of these expenses will come off if our sales aren't going the best closer to the event (new gate/depot) it came out as us only have around $3000 in our accounts at the end of it all.

Given that Luminate and Splore are both happening next year I think it's something we should consider.

I think we may be better off not not increasing budgets on the Man and Temple and which ever other expenses we have increased  where we can.

My 2c anyway.

[Pete Wyatt]

I agree you have a valid point about other festivals and attendance Hippie

on that basis it would be considered prudent to keep the existing Man and Temple budgets on the basis that they don't have to be bigger each year.

[Poppy Norman]

I think your suggestion is overly cautious but can sort of see your point.

I feel really strongly about increasing the temple budget to at least be in line with the man budget.

If we have to reduce costs then we can cut down greeters, gate, depot, mpw etc.

[Karl Matthews]

By not increasing Temple and Man you are basicly consigning them to using free materials like pallets and sticks. We got to pretty special pieces last year from a couple of very talented artist, and yes the pieces don't have to get bigger (not sure the temple could get bigger), but this would be holding them back.

We are wanting to get away from using cheep thin cover sheets, because of the fire risk, and the problem around effectively using and transporting pallets is becoming an issue.

We haven't increased the temple and man budgets in two years and they are very tight, so I would be very much in favour of the increase to these as they are delivering and we want to encourage innovation here.

I would be very surprised if we had a drop in attendance as we never have in the last 7 years, but if we were looking very bad in the lead up we have plenty of ways to cut back. Cut the new container, gate, depot. If there is a strong feeling toward not increasing budgets we could consider depot, gate, greeters, MPW increases. 

We could also revisit the decision to increase first tier ticket numbers to 250?

[jax]

I agree with Karl. Furthermore man and temple application requests have already been advertised with the new budget increases which could make things tricky especially with all the new ply wood restrictions and other boundaries placed around next years builds. Also from what I gather it's been difficult getting many people to show interest in one if these builds already, which will only get harder and harder if we don't make the job more appealing by making the budget easy to maintain.

--- Original Message ---

[Wendy]

Agreeing here with Karl and Jax. There are other places where the budget can be squeezed if needs be.

[Pete Wyatt]

I am distracted by other issues and had forgotten we had already published the man and temple budgets in the applications so I agree it's too late to change.

some of the expenses we are looking at (like extra container, gate, depot and greeters expansions)  can be left until we have a better feel for ticket sales 

[Karl Matthews]

Here is another budget to have a look at.

I have added the Doom and gloom -10% column and made the following subtractions from it;

- New container 

- Gate build

- Depot build

- Depot/Gate/greeters/MPW increases

- Crew appreciation 

- Composting toilet trial

Our site use fees drop $800 (pending the new contract), and our second summit was only $3800 this year so that is about $2000 under the budget, so we know we can keep that cost down if needed.

All this will leave us with $16,958 which we can scrap by with.

On a personal tangent I think it would be unlikely we dip in attendance as we have clashed with Luninate and splore before and been fine.

But yes we should be mindful, this is a tricky business we are in.  

[Karl Matthews]

I didn't adjust for the summit saving BTW, so you can add that on top.

[Oliver Macro]

I'll add to the skepticism about clashing with Luminate/Splore being an issue. I think KB is standing up pretty well against the 'competition' and is garnering a lot more attention from those who'd usually attend either of those festivals. I expect we'll continue to grow as we are and if there does look to be a population stall/drop I'd be very surprised.

[Wendy]

All looks good to me.

A question - how long do we have to finalise this, and does it need a vote?

On 2 July 2014 00:54, Oliver Macro <oliver...@gmail.com> wrote:

I'll add to the skepticism about clashing with Luminate/Splore being an issue. I think KB is standing up pretty well against the 'competition' and is garnering a lot more attention from those who'd usually attend either of those festivals. I expect we'll continue to grow as we are and if there does look to be a population stall/drop I'd be very surprised.

--

[Kathy Guidi]

Hey all,

Since this is a topic that is near and dear to my heart, I thought I'd chime in with my recommendations and thoughts.   BTW,  Karl is doing an excellent job managing the budget spreadsheet which can be tricky;  I've been chatting with him about the budget and normally I would channel my thoughts through him, but in this case, I prefer to write directly.

Budget Scenarios:

It's useful to look at two to three scenarios yet historically we have always based the initial budget on 0% growth for comfortability.   Always ask:  "What is the probability of this happening?" and "Am I comfortable with the outcome if this happens".

If we look at our growth YoY (year over year) since 2007, we have never experienced negative growth -- we've had 0% once, and last year we had pretty flat growth at 4%.   So, I'd say the probability of experiencing -10% growth is very low;   0% growth very high;  +10% growth a possibility.

Ticket Prices	YEAR	ATTENDANCE	% growth
	2007	145
	2008	182	25%
50/60/70/80	2009	250	37%
50/60/70/100	2010	450	80%
70/80/90/140	2011	530	17%
70/90/110/160	2012	536	0%
70/90/110/160	2013	754	41%
90/120/150/200	2014	783	4%
CONSTRAINTS:

The main constraint we have in making financial decisions is the need for having operating capital on hand to fund pre-festival expenses.   Over the past few years, we need approx $40,000 pre-festival (assume $100k budget and 40% needed pre-festival).   We are only allowed a 50% advance on ticket sales revenue from Cosmic Corner and we usually do this around Christmas time -- looking at historical ticket sales revenue -- we tend to do about 50 to 60% of ticket sales by end December which equates to $40 to $50,000'ish which then means we can take $20-$25k.

SO, what I am basically saying is it seems prudent to strive in having a bank balance of $20,000 at all times, give or take.  Obviously as the festival budget grows, so will our pre-festival expenses, so keep this in mind.      Our current bank balance is $23,000 and it has taken us many years to build this up.

REVENUE:

There are two ways to adjust revenue -- increase ticket prices (which I highly advise we try not to do for a few more years) OR modify the cap we have on Tier 1 tickets.   I know you already discussed and voted on an increase to the cap from 200 tickets to 250, BUT I think now that everyone has been looking at the budget, I would HIGHLY RECOMMEND keeping the cap at 200 for this year, especially if we think we might experience -10% to 0% growth.  This will increase revenue by around $1500 by assuming 50 tickets get pushed from Tier 1 into Tier 2 (50 tickets * $30 as difference between Tier 1 and Tier 2 ticket prices)

Attached is an updated spreadsheet  -- where I've modified the Tier 1 cap to 200 + assuming 25 - 35 additional for crew.   (Karl, copy this one and use it going forward as I've also modified the GST calculations to assume that 10% of expenses will not have GST and therefore cannot be claimed back).

REVENUE predictions:   -10% ($89,500);  0% ($99,926) and 10% ($110,637)

EXPENSES:

[Kathy Guidi]

IGNORE previous email and read this one please.  Last one cut off.


Hey all,

Budget Scenarios:

SO, what I am basically saying is it seems prudent to strive in having a bank balance of $20,000 at all times, give or take.  Obviously as the festival budget grows, so will our pre-festival expenses, so keep this in mind as I think over the next few years we will want to be looking at ending up with a net increase to cash rather than netural or a decline.      Our current bank balance is $23,000 which has taken us many years to build up.

REVENUE:

There are two ways to adjust revenue -- increase ticket prices (which I highly advise we try not to do for a few more years) OR modify the cap we have on Tier 1 tickets.   I know you already discussed and voted on an increase to the cap from 200 tickets to 250, BUT I think now that everyone has been looking at the budget, I would HIGHLY RECOMMEND keeping the cap at 200 for this year, especially if we think we might experience -10% to 0% growth.  This will increase revenue by around $1500 by assuming 50 tickets get pushed from Tier 1 into Tier 2 (50 tickets * $30 as difference between Tier 1 and Tier 2 ticket prices)

Attached is an updated spreadsheet  -- where I've modified the Tier 1 cap to 200 plus assuming 25 - 35 additional Tier 1 tickets for crew + locals.   (Karl, copy this one and use it going forward as I've also modified the GST calculations to assume that 10% of expenses will not have GST and therefore cannot be claimed back).

REVENUE predictions:   -10% ($89,500);  0% ($99,926) and 10% ($110,637)

EXPENSES:

The purpose of doing a 1st pass of the budget in June is to see what the budget will look like with everyone's wish list.  Ya'all have come up with $12,500 in one-off expenses:

$3000/tools;   $3500 shipping container;   $3500 new depot building;  $2500 new Gate.

Other expenses are not so adjustable, though some of the manager budgets can be reduced by a wee bit if needed.  Also note that there is always a $2000 MISC line item for those 'just in case last minute' expenses which always seem to crop up.   And also note that as Karl pointed out the $5000 Summit line item is a post-festival expense--- if Kiwiburn were to experience poor ticket sales, the decision can be made to cancel the Summit.

SO... I made the following changes to the expenses:

* Changed Temple and Man budgets to $4500 each from $5000 each.   Last year's budget was $3500/Temple, $4500/Man and you all had a discussion about possibly increasing to $5000, but in the proposal requests you stated they'd be about $4500 each and I think this is a good number.

*  For 0% + 10% growth,  buy the container and tools.

*  For +10% growth,     also do the Depot and Gate.

*  At -10% growth, manager budgets were kept flat;  otherwise slight increases across the board.

Results:

REVENUE predictions:                 -10%   $89,500;  0%    $ 99,926    and 10%   $110,637

EXPENSE predictions:                 -10% (-$95,500); 0% (-$100,300)   and 10% ($109,232)

NET increase/decrease to cash:            -($6000)            -($365)                     +$1406

Final est bank balance:                            $17,000          $23,000                     $25,000

SO ask, 'can I live with this outcome'?

If you are all happy with the expense assumptions, then given the low probability of experiencing -10% growth, I'd say the worst case scenario is okay (and remembering the $5k summit expense can be cancelled).      I can live with 0% and 10% predictions assuming that NEXT YEAR, the $12,500 in one-off capital expenses is not repeated (though I know it is easy to dream up all sorts of things that we need like golf carts and increased art grants, etc -- but that's in the far future!).

To review my recommendations:

* Keep Tier 1 ticket sales capped at 200

* Make plans to buy the shipping container and tools.

* Watch ticket sales and if by late December we've sold at least 450 tickets, then safe to assume we will hit 0% growth or better and make plans to build new Depot & Gate.

Normally at this juncture, there is a vote to ratify the budget and then from hereinout, the finance team monitors things as we tick along.  But I might hold off from voting on budget until you hear from Rathmoy re contract costs.

Yes, I am verbose, but hopefully you all have a really good grip on the finances and the fluidness that is budgeting & revenue modeling!

-Kathy

[Wendy]

Thanks for that Kathy, that's awesome.

One thing we need to keep in mind about Rathmoy is that the current draft of the contract has us paying the $8000 flat fee up front before the festival.  I don't know how this affects our projections for required bank balance, but I figured it should be mentioned here.

[Kathy Guidi]

Wendy --

Yes, that's included and what we did last year.  Andrea will send an invoice for $8k to be paid 1st week in January, prior to ops team arrival.

: - )

[Karl Matthews]

Thanks for your input Kathy, very much appreciated.

I will comment further tomorrow, I'm at the end of a long day and don't feel like anything I say right now will be that coherent. 

[Karl Matthews]

Again thank you Kathy for your expert input!

So the budget is looking like it is about where we want it, and yes I agree we should hold of on voting on it until we have all the information regarding the actual cost of the site.

Of Kathy's recommendations the one we have to consider soon is whether we would like to go back on our decision to increase first tier ticket sales to 250.

Is this something we are willing to do? Has there already been any information but out to the community?

If people are worried about ticket sales than I think we should seriously consider bringing them back to 200. 

Personally I would be in favour.

On Sat, Jul 5, 2014 at 3:47 PM, Karl Matthews <karldm...@gmail.com> wrote:

Sweet thank you Laura, It will be interesting to hear what comes of that meeting!

On Thu, Jul 3, 2014 at 9:31 AM, Laura Papp <laur...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Kathy and Karl,

Kathy, thank you for sending this through. I have been quietly following the budget discussions, and I appreciate that you have summed things up and added new recommendations in a way that makes a lot of sense to me, and allows the ExComm to have a best case/worst case plan of action. 

I met with Jane and Rose-Marie from Westpac this week, and they have put me in touch with a "transactional" banker in my area who can answer our questions. Will let you know how that goes.

Laura

[Poppy Norman]

Due to the reasons stated by both Karl and Kathy I think we should go back on what we decided and just have 200 first tier tickets. As far as I am aware this information has not been put out to the community. 

[Wendy]

I agree.

[hops]

Same here, I agree

[Hippie Tim]

I agree that we take it back to 200, I also suggest we have our ticket page as a private page (not listed on cosmic ticketing) and we make people read information, including information about buying in the tier that they can afford, before they actually make it to the ticket page.

I know a lot of you may think I'm being overly cautious when it comes to ticket sale but keep this in mind. We sell maybe 200+ tickets in the last weeks before Kiwiburn. If we were to have an extreme weather event looming it could severely effect ticket sales. As an example, a regional event here that sold out in less than an hour with 1000 tickets sold had 200-300 people not show up at all because of an extreme weather warning, the weather didn't even hit!

Festivals by nature are hit and miss so being cautious is the best approach.

I'm wondering if we need a line item for mental health services? I'll talk about this more in that thread but I think this is something we should pay a professional for.

Hippie.

[Pete Wyatt]

I agree to make it 200

[Wendy]

Just FYI I emailed Andrea today and gave her a nudge about the contract.

[Wendy]

..aaaand, here's the response:

"The contract seems good in general, but after Mark and I have been talking  with his parents, who are the owners of the land, we have arrived to the conclusion that we are not happy to capped the number of tickets . The reason for this is that more people on the farm more risks for us, so we think we should receive a benefit too for more people coming to the festival. Also we think $15 per ticket over 500 tickets is a reasonable price for us to receive, not $10. We are happy with the rest of the terms, even that you are 28 days in site and make a contract for two years period."

So the main change is that they want $5 more per ticket over $500, and for that not to be capped. 

I actually think that's a fairly reasonable request, but would be keen to see how that'd affect our budget overall for an attendance the same as this year, and how many people would have to attend in order for our budget to still work as planned, before agreeing to it.

[Karl Matthews]

Hey I'll have a play around with this tonight or tomorrow night and see what it looks like.

First impression is this sounds reasonable.

[Karl Matthews]

Here is a new budget spread sheet attached with the revised contract info.

So as Hippie pointed out in the other contract thread this is what we are looking at these increases to expenditure:

-10%	0%	10%
+$1,021	+$1,415	+$1,807

 So this is what we would be looking like for our three attendance scenarios:

	-10%	0%	10%
REVENUE predictions	$89,540	$99,926	$110,638
EXPENSE predictions	$96,078	$100,278	$109,216
NET increase/decrease to cash	-$6,938	-$1,614	-$189
Final est bank balance	$16,212	$21,536	$22,961

This now means that with our wish list budgets, even with a 10% increase we will still be looking at a decrease in our bank accounts. This will have to come into our thinking when considering the larger items on that wish list.

I think the contract sounds reasonable.

There is a way to offset this by passing this onto the community and making third tire tickets $155. Feels kind of sneaky but could bbe something to consider.

[Karl Matthews]

Classic,

forgot to attach the new spread sheet.

[Oliver Macro]

I don't think it's particularly sneaky, the KB experience is worth that. As far as I'm aware we're still on the less expensive end of the scale compared to other summer festivals.

[Pete Wyatt]

I would be happy to put a $5 increase on each ticket tier as they are very cheap for what we offer and I don't think the participants would worry about it

On Wed, Jul 16, 2014 at 12:44 AM, Oliver Macro <oliver...@gmail.com> wrote:

I don't think it's particularly sneaky, the KB experience is worth that. As far as I'm aware we're still on the less expensive end of the scale compared to other summer festivals.

--

[Wendy]

I'm also in agreement that a $5 increase in ticket price would be ok if we feel it's necessary.

From what I understand, the budget for this year is pretty tight, so I think keeping our bottom line stable might be a good plan.

Also, it'd be good to hear from everyone here so that we can get the contract done and the budget signed off asap.

[Karl Matthews]

Just did some quick calculations baised on the projected the tire sales with a $5 increase. Sorry I can't do anything more thorough I'm just on my phone.

-10% + $1585
0% + $1760
10 + $1925

Well that would more than cover the contract increase, cause by the the contract adjustment I am still hesitant for any increase.

But it is very tempting and I think the community will understand the reasoning behind it.

[Hippie Tim]

I think a $5 increase across all tiers would be acceptable and would allow us more breathing room.

The reality is that we run a tight ship and more money will not go amiss!

Also you didn't adjust the spreadsheet correctly to show $15 fees across the three different projections so it's currently not correct. It only shows $15 fees on -10% growth.

I'd improve the spreadsheet for you and send it across but you must be using a rather new version of Excel as it doesn't like my open office at all which is kind of frustrating, will post in another thread about this.  

[Karl Matthews]

Oh dear, I did that originally and downloaded the spread sheet as an excel doc but I have updated it since and the numbers in the first email about the extra contact costs are right.

I don't use excel at all I just download my Google spread sheet that way as I thought it was the best way for everyone to import to their own programs. I'll send the right spreadsheet tonight and an open office version.

[Karl Matthews]

Sorry if that email was confusing, I will clear everything up tonight, am at work on my phone at the moment.

Just a quick comment about the suggestion of a $5 increase over all tiers. I'm not really into that idea, I would rather keep it to just the third tier.

[Wendy]

As someone who buys a third tier ticket because I think people who can afford to, should, I would happily pay $5 more a ticket.  It's a small difference to me for the sake of a really good site.

I'd like to call a vote on the budget on Friday if possible.  Do people think increasing third tier tickets by $5 and finalising the contract and the budget at the same time is a good idea?

[Oliver Macro]

"Do people think increasing third tier tickets by $5 and finalising the contract and the budget at the same time is a good idea?"

Seems logical.

[Isa Ritchie]

It makes sense to me, although I'm also comfortable increasing all the tiers, inflation and all that.

[Karl Matthews]

Here is a revised budget with all the correct info regarding the contract request and a $5 increase for the third tier.

The is an Excel version AND an Open Office version. 

[Karl Matthews]

And if you would like to see what it would look like for a $5 increase across the board here you go..

[Karl Matthews]

This is the bones of what we would be looking at on a $5 increase across the board..

	-10%	0%	10%
REVENUE predictions	$93,063	$103,841	$114,944

EXPENSE predictions

$96,078

$100,278

$109,216

NET increase/decrease to cash	-$3,874	$1,553	$2,789
Final est bank balance	$19,276	$24,703	$25,939

We would still almost have our desired operating budget budget of $20,000 even if we ran into a year of attendance dropping. This is something we could seriously consider if we are feeling some anxiety about attendance and would be a minimal increase per person.

However I am still reluctant to do this across the board as it is still an increase and I would like to keep the price a stable as possible after the big jump last year.

I could be persuaded though... 

[Oliver Macro]

I'm in favour of the across-board increase as I feel the standard of the event itself was raised high enough to justify it and a $5 increase is fairly minimal. 

I wouldn't feel particularly anxious about a potential attendance drop. From what I've noticed word of mouth about this years excellence has spread and captured a great deal of fresh interest. I feel fairly confident that we'll be breaking the 1000 participant mark within the next two years if this perceived interest carries through.

[Pete Wyatt]

I believe a $5 across the board is very reasonable, the new site is awesome and participants are loving it.

It still keeps the tier 1 below the $100 mark.

We could also do more education about why we want to encourage people to buy the most expensive ticket they feel they can afford.

I know we are different to any other festival in NZ but as a comparison Luminate sent out emails about their Super Early Bird tickets at $165 and they sold out in the first day or so (no word of how many tickets at that price). Sundaise is just a weekend festival in march and their super early bird price was $99.

[Jax]

I am also in favour of the $5 increase across the board. Inflation, etc.

[Wendy]

Bringing this back here because the voting thread is getting hijacked.  Karl said:

"If there is a consensus to increase ticket prices across the board than I won't stand in the way.

Just feels like it's a huge policy decision to make in a short time.

I think it is silly to have the gate price $205. I would like to keep it $200 just for ease of cash exchange on the gate.":

Thing is, we don't have consensus.  What we have is four excom members (Tim, Jax, Isa, Pete) saying they approve of an across-the-board ticket increase of $5.  We have one non-excom member (Oliver) agreeing.

We have 2 excom members (Karl and myself) wanting the increase to be only on top tier tickets, but ok with that increase.

We have not heard from Poppy, Mark or Hops on this topic.

Based on this, I assume that the majority of us are ok with a ticket increase, and that the most popular suggestion is $5 across the board.

We also have general agreement that first tier tickets should be limited to 200.

I am going to leave the voting thread up for the time being, and ask that anyone who thinks there needs to be more discussion in here refrains from voting until they are happy the discussion is complete.  I would appreciate this being squared away over the weekend if possible, so that we can confirm the budget for those that need it and get on with other tasks.

On 17 July 2014 08:00, Jax <tribalfiree...@gmail.com> wrote:

I am also in favour of the $5 increase across the board. Inflation, etc.

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[Oliver Macro]

I see logic in the minor increase to the three tiers for the reasons already mentioned (justified by standard of event, maintenance of fiscal security, and the fact that we're still less pricey than our 'competitors') however as Karl has pointed out keeping the gate to an easily handled figure makes sense. $200 is a reasonable and easy figure to deal with and from my experience with gate sales at events it's always easier to deal with as few notes as possible. 

On another thought.. Despite there being many a valid reason for a minor increase in the three tiers now I also see some sense in holding off for a year, seeing how our population grows in 2015 (which I believe it will) and potentially making a $10 increase in the three tiers for 2016. As Pete has pointed out even Sundaise (a relatively fresh event on the scene) have their earlybird tickets priced higher than ours and despite Kiwiburn being of in of a league of it's own with regards to festivals in Aotearoa I think it's fair that we place ourselves on equal footing as we are more than worth that. I feel that this could make some sense to avoid the potential of a second successive increase in ticket pricing and also giving the impression of underselling ourselves. I'm not opposed to this occurring now either. 

I suppose that I feel that if we're to make an increase in ticket prices then we may as well make it a substantial one and avoid having to consider it again a year later should the need arise. Personally I'd have no qualms about handing over a Rutherford/$100 for a first tier ticket to Kiwiburn and I doubt many others would either.

Perhaps put it to the community? That would take extra time however I understand.

[Isa Ritchie]

For the record, I'm happy with just increasing one tier. I won't argue for it to be across the board

[Karl Matthews]

Sorry for hijacking your vote Wendy! Yes it will be good to put this to bed by the end of the weekend.

I have attached a new budget version with the change to the gate price making it $200. I think it is important to have a nice round number when your are dealing with cash. This is budget 8.

The thing I am asking myself is do we actually need to increase the first and second tier. I'm not sure we do but it would be nice to have the extra revenue as an insurance against something unforeseen happening and having a decrease in attendance. However I do think we have the flexibility in the budget to survive.

If we were to increase the third tier we are doing it for a good reason that we can easily communicate to the community.

How about a compromise. We keep first tier at $90 and raise second and third by $5. I would really like to at least keep that first tier cheep as possible for people with less money. This would give us the extra cover for the increase in the land cost and a little extra breathing room until we know what our second year will look like attendance wise. If you look at budget 9 you'll see what this looks like.

A second tier of $125 will bring us in line will Burning seeds first tier price.

Thoughts?

[Oliver Macro]

I see no flaw in the compromise.

[Kathy Guidi]

I honestly would recommend not increasing ticket prices at all this year and just absorb the extra $5 per ticket fee for Rathmoy.   There's enough money in the coffers/budget to do so.  Also, looking at the ticket increase history, we seem to raise prices every 2 years and the last time we did so was for 2014 (last year) when we bumped up ticket prices $20 across the board.  This was also reaching the limit that people said they were comfortable paying for tickets when we polled them in 2013 on the census.   We had agreed at that time to do our best to hold ticket prices steady.

I understand that Rathmoy is asking for more money which seems reasonable.  

I'd rather see a $10 or more fee hike made once every few years than little fiddly ticket price hikes of $5.

I think everyone is in general agreement about adopting the expense side of the budget as I've seen no commentary from anyone about the plan of action for spending (ie: at 0% growth, no Depot or Gate expansion).

The revenue (ticket price) side of the budget needs to be finalised in time for the announcement of ticket sales (generally Sept 1st) so there is time to discuss this further.

-K

[Kathy Guidi]

Also wanted to say that there's no wrong or right way to proceed -- it's just what everyone thinks is best for the community.

Some reasons why it would make sense to raise prices this year is if insurance costs increased, or if you decide to pay for a mental health support team, or if there's a reason to obtain directors & officers insurance (or whatever they call it) to potentially protect the committee against liability.  .   If there's a belief that all of these things will happen, then perhaps increasing ticket prices this year makes sense, and in that case, I would think about a  $10 across the board hike to cover all of that.

-K

[Wendy]

So now we have three suggestions on the table:

1.  Don't increase tickets at all

2.  Increase only the top tier and have gate at $200

3.  Increase across the board.

Do we need to vote on just ticket prices to move this forwards?  Before Kathy's email, we had some agreement that increasing just one tier would be acceptable.

Personally, I'm for the one-tier increase because I prefer to be on the safe side, revenue wise, and for my reasons stated before.

[Oliver Macro]

If those are the options to be I'd go with Kathy's recommendation and hold off for a year. I'd prefer to see any increase be reviewed across the board however likewise I prefer playing on the safe side of things. 

Up to you guys anyway.

[Karl Matthews]

I think we can go ahead and vote to sign off on the budget without making a final decision on the ticket prices just yet. I think everyone is mostly on the same page with it.

I think Kathy raises a good point that we still have things that can pop up and we still don't have insurance cover. Well we do have a line item of $2000 set aside as miscellaneous for emergencies but I would like to keep this for that.

The point about directors insurance is a good one and will discuss more in in the insurance thread.

I we decide to take more time on the ticket thing maybe we could do a quick survey of the community to get some more feedback.

On Sun, Jul 20, 2014 at 11:07 AM, Oliver Macro <oliver...@gmail.com> wrote:

If those are the options to be I'd go with Kathy's recommendation and hold off for a year. I'd prefer to see any increase be reviewed across the board however likewise I prefer playing on the safe side of things. 

Up to you guys anyway.

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