FW: A GOOD READ

[Antony TRENNEL]

 A few things I did not know in this interview.

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Subject: A GOOD READ
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---------------------------- Original Message ---------------------------- Subject: Fw: The Manhattan Project Interview --------------------------------------------------------------------------           Although this is a well-documented story, it has a few new nuggets.          An extremely Interesting dialog!   Scroll to the end for the pilots best          conclusions.  Excellent read!!     Here's a bit of American history yet to reach the history books -- an August     2002 interview by writer Studs Terkel with Paul Tibbets, the pilot of the     B-29 that dropped the first atom bomb.  It's fascinating.     Studs was a Chicago based newspaper & TV columnist and I read some of his      stuff in which he was a working mans historian.      The Manhattan Project (Off-The-Cuff Interview)     Studs Terkel: We're seated here, two old gaffers.  Me and Paul Tibbets, 89     years old, brigadier-general retired, in his home town of Columbus, Ohio,     where has lived for many years.     Paul Tibbets: Hey, you've got to correct that.  I'm only 87.  You said 89.     ST: I know.  See, I'm 90.  So I got you beat by three years.  Now we've had     a nice lunch, you and I and your companion.  I noticed as we sat in that     restaurant, people passed by.  They didn't know who you were.  But once upon     a time, you flew a plane called the Enola Gay over the city of Hiroshima, in     Japan, on a Sunday morning - August 6 1945 - and a bomb fell.  It was the     atomic bomb, the first ever.  And that particular moment changed the whole     world around.  You were the pilot of that plane.     PT: Yes, I was the pilot.     ST: And the Enola Gay was named after...     PT: My mother.  She was Enola Gay Haggard before she married my dad, and my     dad never supported me with the flying - he hated airplanes and motorcycles.     When I told them I was going to leave college and go fly planes in the Army     Air Corps, my dad said, "Well, I've sent you through school, bought you     automobiles, given you money to run around with the girls, but from here on,     you're on your own.  If you want to go kill yourself, go ahead, I don't give     a damn."  Then Mom just quietly said, "Paul, if you want to go fly     airplanes, you're going to be all right."  And that was that.     ST: Where was that?     PT: Well, that was Miami, Florida.  My dad had been in the real estate     business down there for years, and at that time he was retired.  And I was     going to school at Gainesville, Florida, but I had to leave after two years     and go to Cincinnati because Florida had no medical school.     ST: You were thinking of being a doctor?     PT: I didn't think that, my father thought it.  He said, "You're going to be     a doctor," and I just nodded my head and that was it.  And I started out     that way; but about a year before, I was able to get into an airplane, fly     it - I soloed - and I knew then that I had to go fly airplanes.     ST: Now by 1944 you were a pilot - a test pilot on the program to develop     the B-29 bomber.  When did you get word that you had a special assignment?     PT: One day [in September 1944] I'm running a test on a B-29, I land, a man     meets me.  He says he just got a call from General Uzal Ent [commander of     the Second Air Force] at Colorado Springs, he wants me in his office the     next morning at nine o'clock.  He said, "Bring your clothing - your B4 bag -     because you're not coming back."  Well, I didn't know what it was and didn't     pay any attention to it - it was just another assignment.     I got to Colorado Springs the next morning perfectly on time.  A man named     Lansdale met me, walked me to General Ent's office and closed the door     behind me.  With him was a man wearing a blue suit, a US Navy captain - that     was William Parsons, who flew with me to Hiroshima - and Dr Norman Ramsey,     Columbia University professor in nuclear physics.  And Norman said: "OK,     we've got what we call the Manhattan Project.  What we're doing is trying to     develop an atomic bomb.  We've gotten to the point now where we can't go     much further till we have airplanes to work with."     He gave me an explanation which probably lasted 45, 50 minutes, and they     left.  General Ent looked at me and said, "The other day, General Arnold     [Commander General of the Army Air Corps] offered me three names." Both of     the others were full colonels; I was a lieutenant-colonel.  He said that     when General Arnold asked which of them could do this atomic weapons deal,     he replied without hesitation, "Paul Tibbets is the man to do it."  I said,     "Well, thank you, sir."  Then he laid out what was going on and it was up to     me now to put together an organisation and train them to drop atomic weapons     on both Europe and the Pacific - Tokyo.     ST: Interesting that they would have dropped it on Europe as well.  We     didn't know that.     PT: My edict was as clear as could be.  Drop simultaneously in Europe and     the Pacific because of the secrecy problem - you couldn't drop it in one     part of the world without dropping it in the other.  And so he said, "I     don't know what to tell you, but I know you happen to have B-29s to start     with.  I've got a squadron in training in Nebraska - they have the best     record so far of anybody we've got.  I want you to go visit them, look at     them, talk to them, do whatever you want.  If they don't suit you, we'll get     you some more."  He said: "There's nobody could tell you what you have to do     because nobody knows.  If we can do anything to help you, ask me."  I said,     "Thank you very much."  He said, "Paul, be careful how you treat this     responsibility, because if you're successful you'll probably be called a     hero.  And if you're unsuccessful, you might wind up in prison."     ST: Did you know the power of an atomic bomb?  Were you told about that?     PT: No, I didn't know anything at that time.  But I knew how to put an     organisation together.  He said, "Go take a look at the bases, and call me     back and tell me which one you want."  I wanted to get back to Grand Island,     Nebraska, that's where my wife and two kids were, where my laundry was done     and all that stuff.  But I thought, "Well, I'll go to Wendover [Army     Airfield, in Utah] first and see what they've got."  As I came in over the     hills, I saw it was a beautiful spot.  It had been a final staging place for     units that were going through combat crew training, and the guys ahead of me     were the last P-47 fighter outfit.  This lieutenant-colonel in charge said,     "We've just been advised to stop here and I don't know what you want to     do... but if it has anything to do with this base, it's the most perfect     base I've ever been on.  You've got full machine shops, everybody's     qualified, they know what they want to do.  It's a good place."     ST: And now you chose your own crew.     PT: Well, I had mentally done it before that.  I knew right away I was going     to get Tom Ferebee [the Enola Gay's bombardier] and Theodore "Dutch" van     Kirk [navigator] and Wyatt Duzenbury [flight engineer].     ST: Guys you had flown with in Europe?     PT: Yeah.     ST: And now you're training.  And you're also talking to physicists like     Robert Oppenheimer [senior scientist on the Manhattan project].     PT: I think I went to Los Alamos [the Manhattan project HQ] three times, and     each time I got to see Dr Oppenheimer working in his own environment.     Later, thinking about it, here's a young man, a brilliant person.  And he's     a chain smoker and he drinks cocktails.  And he hates fat men.  And General     Leslie Groves [the general in charge of the Manhattan project], he's a fat     man, and he hates people who smoke and drink.  The two of them are the     first, original odd couple.     ST: They had a feud, Groves and Oppenheimer?     PT: Yeah, but neither one of them showed it.  Each one of them had a job to     do.     ST: Did Oppenheimer tell you about the destructive nature of the bomb?     PT: No.     ST: How did you know about that?     PT: From Dr Ramsey.  He said "The only thing we can tell you about it is,     it's going to explode with the force of 20,000 tons of TNT."  I'd never seen     1 lb of TNT blow up.  I'd never heard of anybody who'd seen 100 lbs of TNT     blow up.  All I felt was that this was gonna be one hell of a big bang.     ST: Twenty thousand tons - that's equivalent to how many planes full of     bombs?     PT: Well, I think the two bombs that we used [at Hiroshima and Nagasaki] had     more power than all the bombs the Air Force had used during the war on     Europe.     ST: So Ramsey told you about the possibilities.     PT: Even though it was still theory, whatever those guys told me, that's     what happened.  So I was ready to say I wanted to go to war, but I wanted to     ask Oppenheimer how to get away from the bomb after we dropped it.  I told     him that when we had dropped bombs in Europe and North Africa, we'd flown     straight ahead after dropping them - which is also the trajectory of the     bomb.  But what should we do this time?  He said, "You can't fly straight     ahead because you'd be right over the top when it blows up and nobody would     ever know you were there."  He said I had to turn tangential to the     expanding shockwave.  I said, "Well, I've had some trigonometry, some     physics.  What is tangency in this case?"  He said it was 159 degrees in     either direction.  "Turn 159 degrees as fast as you can and you'll be able     to put yourself the greatest distance from where the bomb exploded."     ST: How many seconds did you have to make that turn?     PT: I had dropped enough practice bombs to realize that the charges would     blow around 1,500 ft up in the air, so I would have 40 to 42 seconds to turn     159 degrees.  I went back to Wendover as quick as I could and took the     airplane up.  I got myself to 25,000 ft, and I practiced turning, steeper,     steeper, steeper and I got it where I could pull it round in 40 seconds.     The tail was shaking dramatically and I was afraid of it breaking off, but I     didn't quit.  That was my goal.  And I practiced and practiced until,     without even thinking about it, I could do it in between 40 and 42 seconds,     all the time.  So, when that day came...     ST: You got the go-ahead on August 5.     PT: Yeah.  We were in Tinian [the US island base in the Pacific] at the time     we got the OK.  They had sent this Norwegian to the weather station out on     Guam [the US's westernmost territory] and I had a copy of his report.  We     said that, based on his forecast, the sixth day of August would be the best     day that we could get over Honshu [the island on which Hiroshima stands].     So we did everything that had to be done to get the crews ready to go:     airplane loaded, crews briefed, all of the things checked that you have to     check before you can fly over enemy territory.     General Groves had a brigadier-general who was connected back to Washington     DC by a special teletype machine.  He stayed close to that thing all the     time, notifying people back there, all by code, that we were preparing these     airplanes to go any time after midnight on the sixth.  And that's the way it     worked out.  We were ready to go at about four o'clock in the afternoon on     the fifth and we got word from the President that we were free to go: "Use     'em as you wish."  They give you a time you're supposed to drop your bomb on     target and that was 9:15 in the morning, but that was Tinian time, one hour     later than Japanese time.  I told Dutch, "You figure it out what time we     have to start after midnight to be over the target at 9 am."     ST: That'd be Sunday morning.     PT: Well, we got going down the runway at right about 2:15 am and we took     off, we met our rendezvous guys, we made our flight up to what we call the     initial point, that would be a geographic position that you could not     mistake.  Well, of course we had the best one in the world with the rivers     and bridges and that big shrine.  There was no mistaking what it was.     ST: So you had to have the right navigator to get it on the button.     PT: The airplane has a bomb sight connected to the autopilot and the     bombardier puts figures in there for where he wants to be when he drops the     weapon, and that's transmitted to the airplane.  We always took into account     what would happen if we had a failure and the bomb bay doors didn't open: we     had a manual release put in each airplane so it was right down by the     bombardier and he could pull on that.  And the guys in the airplanes that     followed us, to drop the monitoring instruments, needed to know when it was     going to go.  We were told not to use the radio, but, hell, I had to.  I     told them I would say, "One minute out," "Thirty seconds out," "Twenty     seconds" and "Ten" and then I'd count, "Nine, eight, seven, six, five, four     seconds", which would give them a time to drop their cargo.  They knew what     was going on because they knew where we were.  And that's exactly the way it     worked, it was absolutely perfect.     After we got the airplanes in formation, I crawled into the tunnel and went     back to tell the men.  I said, "You know what we're doing today?"  They     said, "Well, yeah, we're going on a bombing mission."  I said, "Yeah, we're     going on a bombing mission, but it's a little bit special."  My tailgunner,     Bob Caron, was pretty alert.  He said, "Colonel, we wouldn't be playing with     atoms today, would we?"  I said, "Bob, you've got it just exactly right."     So I went back up in the front end and I told the navigator, bombardier,     flight engineer, in turn.  I said, "OK, this is an atom bomb we're     dropping."  They listened intently but I didn't see any change in their     faces or anything else.  Those guys were no idiots.  We'd been fiddling     round with the most peculiar-shaped things we'd ever seen.     So we're coming down.  We get to that point where I say "One second," and by     the time I'd got that second out of my mouth, the airplane had lurched     because 10,000lbs had come out of the front.  I'm in this turn now, tight as     I can get it, that helps me hold my altitude and helps me hold my airspeed     and everything else all the way round.  When I level out, the nose is a     little bit high and as I look up, there the whole sky is lit up in the     prettiest blues and pinks I've ever seen in my life.  It was just great.     I tell people I tasted it.  "Well," they say, "what do you mean?"  When I     was a child, if you had a cavity in your tooth, the dentist put some mixture     of some cotton or whatever it was and lead into your teeth and pounded them     in with a hammer.  I learned that if I had a spoon of ice-cream and touched     one of those teeth, I got this electrolysis and I got the taste of lead out     of it.  And I knew right away what it was.     OK, we're all going.  We had been briefed to stay off the radios: "Don't say     a damn word, what we do is we make this turn, we're going to get out of here     as fast as we can."  I want to get out over the sea of Japan because I know     they can't find me over there.  With that done we're home free. Then Tom     Ferebee has to fill out his bombardier's report and Dutch, the navigator,     has to fill out a log.  Tom is working on his log and says, "Dutch, what     time were we over the target?"  And Dutch says, "Nine-fifteen plus 15     seconds." Ferebee says: "What lousy navigating.  Fifteen seconds off!"     ST: Did you hear an explosion?     PT: Oh yeah.  The shockwave was coming up at us after we turned.  And the     tailgunner said, "Here it comes."  About the time he said that, we got this     kick in the ass.  I had accelerometers installed in all airplanes to record     the magnitude of the bomb.  It hit us with two and a half Gs.  Next day,     when we got figures from the scientists on what they had learned from all     the things, they said, "When that bomb exploded, your airplane was 10 and     half miles away from it."     ST: Did you see that mushroom cloud?     PT: You see all kinds of mushroom clouds, but they were made with different     types of bombs.  The Hiroshima bomb did not make a mushroom.  It was what I     call a stringer.  It just came up.  It was black as hell, and it had light     and colors and white in it and grey color in it and the top was like a     folded-up Christmas tree.     ST: Do you have any idea what happened down below?     PT: Pandemonium!  I think it's best stated by one of the historians, who     said: "In one micro-second, the city of Hiroshima didn't exist."     ST: You came back, and you visited President Truman.     PT: We're talking 1948 now.  I'm back in the Pentagon and I get notice from     the Chief of Staff, Carl Spaatz, the first Chief of Staff of the Air Force.     When we got to General Spaatz's office, General Doolittle was there, and a     colonel named Dave Shillen.  Spaatz said, "Gentlemen, I just got word from     the President that he wants us to go over to his office immediately."  On     the way over, Doolittle and Spaatz were doing some talking; I wasn't saying     very much.  When we got out of the car we were escorted right quick to the     Oval Office.  There was a black man there who always took care of Truman's     needs and he said, "General Spaatz, will you please be facing the desk?"     And now, facing the desk, Spaatz is on the right, Doolittle and Shillen. Of     course, militarily speaking, that's the correct order: because Spaatz is     senior, Doolittle has to sit to his left.     Then I was taken by this man and put in the chair that was right beside the     President's desk, beside his left hand.  Anyway, we got a cup of coffee and     we got most of it consumed when Truman walked in and everybody stood on     their feet.  He said, "Sit down, please," and he had a big smile on his face     and he said, "General Spaatz, I want to congratulate you on being first     Chief of the Air Force," because it was no longer the Air Corps.  Spaatz     said, "Thank you, sir, it's a great honor and I appreciate it."  And the     President said to Doolittle: "That was a magnificent thing you pulled flying     off of that carrier,"      (http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/events/wwii-pac/misc-42/dooltl.htm)     and Doolittle said, "All in a day's work, Mr. President."  And he     looked at Dave Shillen and said, "Colonel Shillen, I want to congratulate     you on having the foresight to recognize the potential in aerial refueling.     We're gonna need it bad some day," and Shillen said, "Thank you very much."     Then he looked at me for 10 seconds and he didn't say anything.  And when he     finally did, he said, "What do you think?"  I said, "Mr. President, I think I     did what I was told."  He slapped his hand on the table and said, "You're     damn right you did, and I'm the guy who sent you.  If anybody gives you a     hard time about it, refer them to me."     ST: Anybody ever give you a hard time?     PT: Nobody gave me a hard time.     ST: Do you ever have any second thoughts about the bomb?     PT: Second thoughts?  No.  Studs, look.  Number one, I got into the Air     Corps to defend the United States to the best of my ability.  That's what I     believed in and that's what I worked for.  Number two, I'd had so much     experience with airplanes.  I'd had jobs where there was no particular     direction about how you do it, and then of course I put this thing together     with my own thoughts on how it should be because when I got the directive     that I was to be self-supporting at all times.     On the way to the target I was thinking: I can't think of any mistakes I've     made.  Maybe I did make a mistake: maybe I was too damned assured.  At 29     years of age I was so shot in the ass with confidence, I didn't think there     was anything I couldn't do.  Of course, that applied to airplanes and     people.  So, no, I had no problem with it.  I knew we did the right thing     because when I knew we'd be doing that I thought, yes, we're going to kill a     lot of people, but by God we're going to save a lot of lives.  We won't have     to invade [Japan].     ST: Why did they drop the second one, the Boxcar [bomb] on Nagasaki?     PT: Unknown to anybody else - I knew it, but nobody else knew - there was a     third one.  See, the first bomb went off and they didn't hear anything out     of the Japanese for two or three days.  The second bomb was dropped, and     again they were silent for another couple of days.  Then I got a phone call     from General Curtis LeMay [Chief of Staff of the Strategic Air Forces in the     Pacific].  He said, "You got another one of those damn things?"  I said,     "Yessir."  He said, "Where is it?"  I said, "Over in Utah."  He said, "Get     it out here.  You and your crew are going to fly it."  I said, "Yessir."  I     sent word back and the crew loaded it on an airplane and we headed back to     bring it right on out to Trinian and when they got it to California     debarkation point, the war was over.     ST: What did General LeMay have in mind with the third one?     PT: Nobody knows.     ST: One big question.  Since September 11, (2001) what are your thoughts?     People talk about nukes, the hydrogen bomb.     PT: Let's put it this way.  I don't know any more about these terrorists     than you do, I know nothing.  When they bombed the Trade Center, I couldn't     believe what was going on.  We've fought many enemies at different times.     But we knew who they were and where they were.  These people, we don't know     who they are or where they are.  That's the point that bothers me. Because     they're gonna strike again, I'll put money on it.  And it's going to be     damned dramatic.  But they're gonna do it in their own sweet time.  We've     got to get into a position where we can kill the bastards.  None of this     business of taking them to court, the hell with that.  I wouldn't waste five     seconds on them.     ST: What about the bomb?  Einstein said the world has changed since the atom     was split.     PT: That's right.  It has changed.     ST: And Oppenheimer knew that.     PT: Oppenheimer is dead.  He did something for the world and people don't     understand.  And it is a free world.     ST: One last thing, when you hear people say, "Let's nuke 'em," "Let's nuke     these people," what do you think?     PT: Oh, I wouldn't hesitate if I had the choice.  I'd wipe 'em out. You're     gonna kill innocent people at the same time, but we've never fought a damn     war anywhere in the world where they didn't kill innocent people.  If the     newspapers would just cut out the shit: "You've killed so many civilians."     That's their tough luck for being there.     ST: By the way, I forgot to say Enola Gay was originally called number 82.     How did your mother feel about having her name on it?     PT: Well, I can only tell you what my dad said.  My mother never changed her     expression very much about anything, whether it was serious or light, but     when she'd get tickled, her stomach would jiggle.  My dad said to me that     when the telephone in Miami rang, my mother was quiet first.  Then, when it     was announced on the radio, he said: "You should have seen the old gal's     belly jiggle on that one."     --------Isn't that a heck of a history lesson?---------