Re: APV: Re: gay parents

[Schl...@aol.com]

In a message dated 9/10/2004 11:44:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Prettygo...@aol.com writes:

  Perhaps if homosexuals didn't agree with a country's policy (or law), they should publicly 'boycott' and make a big stink instead of throwing down the gauntlet by flaunting their policies after the fact. 

What a great idea! Lesbians and gay men (homosexuals, btw, everyone, is not really considered a polite term) could then boycott the world! Including, and especially, every single state in the United States!

 

Susan

 

Minerva, Inc.
Helping organizations smash the patriarchy
Susan McGee
734-417-9697

[Schl...@aol.com]

In a message dated 9/11/2004 12:19:42 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Sara...@aol.com writes:

If we are all aware of it, why must we keep pretending otherwise.  I am not talking about being "blatant" or "flaunting" or even "throwing down the gauntlet."  I am talking about being real. 

No, No, you don't understand. If one discusses one's family, including one's partner, and one is a lesbian or a gay man, if someone discusses their children, then you are being "blatant", and "throwing down the gauntlet." Even if you haven't even been a person who has talked to the press. Even if no one is "protesting" agency policies or country policies. If you talk about it, you are automatically stepping out of line.

 

Of course if you are heterosexual and discuss your husband or wife, and how they feel about adoption, or children, or whatever, you're just being open and honest. That's how it works.

[Maureen]

Susan,

 

I think there are two issues here. One is the issue of discrimination in this country, which is real and which calls for us to speak out, challenge bias when we see it, act as allies to targeted groups, etc. I am very clear on that responsibility, and it is an ongoing work in progress for me. I learn every day, from getting it right and getting wrong.

 

The other issue which is more complicated to me is the responsibility we have when we choose to become adoptive parents. It becomes so much more than just about me, about what I want or need, even when it seems to be a matter of my own choice and identity.... I believe I have to be willing to sometimes think of the greater good for all, including the kids in VN who will greatly benefit from being adopted by future gay/lesbian parents.

 

i think that really flies in the face of the very individualistic American notion of individual rights. But I think that joining the collective of adoptive families carries with it a responsibility to think beyond just myself... because every choice I make, whether while I am in country, or the choice I make to send my annual report (or not), etc. has the potential to impact many others.

 

And I think there is vast difference between talking about it, living with your family, being "out", and publishing something in the press. I guess my take is I would rather support the right of gays/lesbians to become parents and adopt, but appeal to the sense of collective responsibility that *all* adoptive parents share as to how a decision to discuss their family in the press might impact other families and other children in VN.

 

thanks

maureen in chicago

mom to Lia, 3.5 from VN

[CWill...@aol.com]

In a message dated 9/11/04 9:43:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Schl...@aol.com writes:

Lesbians and gay men (homosexuals, btw, everyone, is not really considered a polite term)

When did this happen?  I remember being told that Gay was not the polite term and now it seems it is again.  What about same sex couples?  Is that still polite?  What is now UnPC about homosexual?  What is the PC term for bi-sexuals now?

Brenda
Mom to Six who is obviously too busy being a Mom to keep up with PC terms.....

[Schl...@aol.com]

Brenda, I understand that you are a busy person, and I understand that the term "PC" is used by the general public.

 

However, we're talking about naming, which is an important and powerful issue. I blame no one for the terminology they use.

 

However, when someone lets me know that I've used a term that many find offensive or problematic, I welcome that information because I work hard to be an ally to folks who have less privilege than I do.

 

The term "homosexual" has been objected to for..hmmm..I'd say 20 years now.

You're pretty safe saying, lesbians and gay men, or lesbian/gay/bisexual and trans gendered ....or lgbt. Also same gender relationships (as contrasted with mix gender relationships). Some people use same sex relationships or partners.

 

A bunch of folks in the lgbt community use "queer", but I wouldn't, because it's a problem for older lesbians and gay men who the term still bothers.

 

There are some women who call themselves "gay" rather than lesbian, but in general lesbians is preferred (since lesbians tend to be invisible to the world, even more so than gay men).

 

Also, the term "single" is being used to apply to single heterosexuals. Folks on the list say "single mothers" when they mean "single heterosexual mothers".

 

Lesbians can be single or partnered; gay men can be single or partnered; heterosexual women can be singled or partnered  or married. 

 

Susan

[Indigo Williams Willing]

Dear Susan

 

Thanks for your response on this matter. Like Brenda, I too have wondered if homosexual is a useful or derrogatory term.

Your explanation is very helpful in allowing those of us who are unfamiliar with certain communities to adjust our language to a the correct terms used by the very groups we are attempting to describe or refer too.  We are also better able to navigate and understand the uneven or incorrect political landscape we are dealing with in terms of say, adoption policy and laws, if we know who is excluded or made invisible by the absence of such terms in how these documents are written up and conveyed to the public.

 

With Regards

Indigo

______________________________
Indigo Williams Willing (Thuy Thi Diep Huynh)
Founder - Adopted Vietnamese International
www.adoptedvietnamese.org

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Schl...@aol.com

[Othel...@aol.com]

This has been a good dialogue and deserves more discussion in other forums, both in the adoption community and in the gay and lesbian community. Something to consider, as we go forward on this topic is that the adoption process is a difficult one for most everyone, and especially for gay and lesbian families who have to navigate sometimes adverse rules (both expressly prohibitive as well as passive whether they are foreign or domestic).

Many countries prohibit single parent adoptions, and of the ones that do allow it, the majority restrict it to women only and sometimes have a separate set of rules for them (i.e. only children of a certain age).

One of the ways for families in the Lesbian/Gay community learn how to deal with these complex circumstances and not be intimidated from fulfilling their dream of becoming parents is to be open about our discussions and to educate others.

It is important for many of us that have gone before to offer our help to those just beginning the journey. Discussion groups are a good way to reach many, but for many families, they may have a hard time finding them or not live in area that offers them. The mass media, is obviously the best way to reach a growing number of potential adopive families that never thought it was a realistic option for them to pursue.

As with any communication of a topic that is met with controversy, there is a potential for fall-out or back-lash: either politically, especially on the homefront, where there are people who continue campaigns to withhold or reverse second-parent adoption laws, or diplomatically, on the international front, where there is potential for governments to either prohibit single parent adoptions or to ask that you disavow that you are "homosexual."

No adoptive family should put themselves in a position of being asked such questions and responding with an untruth, both because it jeopardizes their own adoption and perhaps the way that future adoptions are conducted between their countries. Some countries have very strong public/political stances on gay rights while culturally have a more benign attitude. As was the case in Vietnam prior to the shut-down, there was not an overt policy nor a mandated affadavit. And I'm sure most orphanage officials were aware that many of the single parents that came to them and adopted children could in fact be gay.

Like it or not, adoption policies in most countries can be influenced by politics. Some countries would rather not have an open admission that their children are eligible for adoption by foreigners as a matter of national pride. Each country has to weigh their own need to have a social safety net to take care of their children with the laws and mores that govern their social policies. Gay adoptions are just one aspect of that complicated balancing act and there are many others that creep into the very heart of the bilateral relations between the countries (something that, in my belief, is central to the hold-up of the MOU between VN and the US).

Craig, one of Sang's 2 dads - Vung Tau

[MaureenK]

Hi Craig,
Thanks for your note - it's good to hear your perspective.

I have one question:

You wrote:
"Gay adoptions are just one aspect of that complicated balancing act and
there are many others that creep into the very heart of the bilateral
relations between the countries (something that, in my belief, is central to
the hold-up of the MOU between VN and the US)."

I hadn't heard that, but I also have to say I haven't been following the MOU
debate as closely in the past. Is it specifically gay adoption, or single
parent adoption in general, that you think is the hold up?


maureen in chicago
single mom to Lia, 3.5

[Hershey, Marjorie R.]

Whether or not there has been (or will be) any legal discrimination against gay parents by Vietnamese officials, I know that there's been discrimination outside the law. We know of an adoptive dad whose sexual orientation had become apparent to at least one local Vietnamese official and who was asked for a $10,000 "fee" or his adoption would not be processed. Although he was working with an agency, the agency representative was not in town at the time and he paid the "fee." It was horrifying. I'm sure that some straight adopters have also dealt with requests for bribes, but it's clear that there doesn't need to be a legal requirement in place for gays to face special challenges. So it might be worth keeping in mind that you're apt to be safer if you have your agency rep with you at all official contacts! Best, Margie (mom)

-----Original Message-----
From: Othel...@aol.com [mailto:Othel...@aol.com]
Sent: Thu 9/16/2004 11:24 AM
To: a...@googlegroups.com
Cc:
Subject: APV: Re: gay parents

Sorry for the delay in responding as I have been on travel again for the past few days. I have no first hand information, but have talked to people (most who have had discussions with their agencies, a couple who have some contacts with VN official, primarily orphanage personnel) that have been lead to believe that a mandated statement of the type required in China that single parent attests to (signs) that he/she is not a homosexual has been on the table for discussion. I have heard nothing to the effect that single parents would be restricted beyond that.

Craig - Dad to Sang, Vung Tau