Re: [Apps4Av] Max Waypoint Increase?

[Jeffrey Ross]

Keith,

I plotted both of your flight plans and I really don't think there was any intention to be able to support roughly 135 waypoints on any single flight plan.  I agree it would be nice to include SIDs and STARs in the flight plan although flying a piston aircraft I don't think I've every been assigned a STAR, SIDs yes but no STARS.

My suggestion, although probably not ideal is to split the flight plan up into 2 (or more) saved flight plans and simply load the next plan mid flight, you can overlap several waypoints if it makes it easier and then simply step forward or back through your waypoints, to do this simply enable in the UI Configuration screen "Show Flight Plan Controls" which will give you the ability to move forward, back, pause your flight plan from the main screen.

On a side note I'm looking at the second flight plan and it almost looks like a hold just west of Denver airport but you've plotted a crazy number of points around the northern part of the "enlarged" 3/4ths of a hold.  Can I ask what you are doing?  You are obviously not flying a typical GA piston aircraft when you are doing a 1500nm trip in the flight levels.

HTH,
Jeff

On 7/5/20 3:15 PM, Keith Barr wrote:

Hi,

I am running into a problem where I need to enter more waypoints into a plan than is currently allowed.  Can the maximum be increased?

Here are two examples, the first one  works, but the second one stops early (presumably due to a waypoint count limitation).  I simply copy and paste the list into the new plan edit.

I have also attached a KML file with both routes.

KDEN-KEWR (KDEN EEONS7 WYNDM HCT J60 LNK DSM EVOTE NELLS KEEHO J584 SLT FQM3 KEWR, ILS 22L approach and missed):

KDEN 39.8772&-104.6195 39.8771&-104.5822 ROYYL SHOBO LUPTN MRENE EEONS WYNDM HCT DRABS LNK DSM EVOTE NELLS KEEHO DORET ZORBO SLT FQM MEGSS HAYED RACKI PENNS SWEET 40.8226&-74.9036 PATRN TEB 2500 GIMEE BUZZD 40.6979&-74.1614 500 40.5450&-74.2865 KILMA 40.4860&-74.4024 40.4870&-74.4003 40.4878&-74.3979 40.4885&-74.3955 40.4889&-74.3930 40.4891&-74.3905 40.4891&-74.3880 40.4890&-74.3854 40.4886&-74.3829 40.4880&-74.3805 40.4872&-74.3782 40.4863&-74.3759 40.4851&-74.3739 40.4839&-74.3719 40.4824&-74.3702 40.4809&-74.3687 40.4792&-74.3674 40.4774&-74.3663 40.4756&-74.3655 40.4737&-74.3650 40.4718&-74.3647 40.4698&-74.3646 40.4679&-74.3649 40.4660&-74.3654 40.4641&-74.3661 40.4623&-74.3671 40.4606&-74.3684 40.4590&-74.3699 40.4576&-74.3715 40.4563&-74.3734 40.4551&-74.3754 40.4227&-74.4390 40.4217&-74.4411 40.4209&-74.4434 40.4203&-74.4457 40.4199&-74.4481 40.4196&-74.4505 40.4196&-74.4530 40.4197&-74.4555 40.4200&-74.4579 40.4205&-74.4603 40.4212&-74.4626 40.4221&-74.4647 40.4231&-74.4668 40.4243&-74.4687 40.4256&-74.4705 40.4271&-74.4721 40.4286&-74.4734 40.4303&-74.4746 40.4320&-74.4755 40.4338&-74.4762 40.4357&-74.4766 40.4376&-74.4768 40.4394&-74.4768 40.4413&-74.4765 40.4432&-74.4760 40.4449&-74.4752 40.4467&-74.4742 40.4483&-74.4729 40.4498&-74.4715 40.4512&-74.4698 40.4525&-74.4680 40.4536&-74.4660 40.4860&-74.4025 KEWR 

KDEN-KDEN (KDEN BAYLR6 HBU WUNZE TBARR1 KDEN, RNAV RNP 16R approach and missed):

KDEN 39.8409&-104.7267 5934 39.8412&-104.7519 39.8409&-104.7543 39.8404&-104.7565 39.8397&-104.7587 39.8389&-104.7608 BRKEM WAKIR TUULO HLTON MTSUI BAYLR BOBBA HBU WUNZE TBARR MNARK EOLUS EPPIC RDDVL CLFFF CEPEE 39.9818&-104.8384 39.9866&-104.8380 39.9913&-104.8370 39.9959&-104.8353 40.0004&-104.8331 40.0046&-104.8302 40.0086&-104.8267 40.0123&-104.8228 40.0157&-104.8183 40.0187&-104.8134 40.0213&-104.8082 40.0234&-104.8026 40.0251&-104.7967 40.0263&-104.7907 40.0270&-104.7845 40.0272&-104.7783 AAGEE JABRO 40.0271&-104.7541 40.0268&-104.7479 40.0260&-104.7417 40.0247&-104.7357 40.0229&-104.7299 40.0207&-104.7244 40.0181&-104.7191 40.0150&-104.7143 40.0116&-104.7100 40.0078&-104.7061 40.0038&-104.7027 39.9995&-104.6999 39.9950&-104.6977 39.9903&-104.6962 39.9856&-104.6953 39.9808&-104.6950 JETSN 39.8958&-104.6961 5900 39.8783&-104.6964 39.8765&-104.6962 39.8746&-104.6962 39.8728&-104.6965 39.8710&-104.6971 39.8692&-104.6978 39.8675&-104.6988 39.8659&-104.7000 39.8644&-104.7014 39.8630&-104.7030 BINBE 39.6697&-104.9474 39.6696&-104.9498 39.6697&-104.9522 39.6701&-104.9546 39.6706&-104.9570 39.6713&-104.9593 39.6721&-104.9614 39.6732&-104.9635 39.6744&-104.9653 39.6757&-104.9671 39.6771&-104.9686 39.6787&-104.9700 39.6804&-104.9711 39.6821&-104.9720 39.6839&-104.9727 39.6858&-104.9731 39.6877&-104.9733 39.6895&-104.9733 39.6914&-104.9730 39.6932&-104.9724 39.6950&-104.9716 39.6967&-104.9706 39.6984&-104.9694 39.6999&-104.9680 39.7013&-104.9663 39.7026&-104.9645 39.7037&-104.9626 39.7046&-104.9605 39.7054&-104.9582 39.7060&-104.9559 39.7065&-104.9536 39.7067&-104.9512 39.7158&-104.8004 39.7158&-104.7979 39.7157&-104.7953 39.7153&-104.7929 39.7148&-104.7904 39.7140&-104.7881 39.7131&-104.7859 39.7120&-104.7838 39.7107&-104.7819 39.7093&-104.7802 39.7078&-104.7787 39.7061&-104.7773 39.7043&-104.7763 39.7025&-104.7754 39.7006&-104.7748 39.6987&-104.7745 39.6967&-104.7745 39.6948&-104.7747 39.6929&-104.7751 39.6910&-104.7759 39.6892&-104.7768 39.6875&-104.7780 39.6859&-104.7795 39.6844&-104.7811 39.6831&-104.7829 39.6819&-104.7849 39.6809&-104.7871 39.6801&-104.7893 39.6794&-104.7917 39.6790&-104.7942 39.6787&-104.7967 39.6696&-104.9474 KDEN 

Thanks,

Keith

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[t v]

Hi Keith.

What acft are you flying?

What did you use to generate that .kml?

Is this something you plan to use in real flight, and how would you maneuver for each point? Hand fly, Auto pilot?

have you actually seen that .kml plotted?

Do you really need all those points, you should be able to fit it in if you select fewer points.
See the plot for your flight below. TV

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[Jeffrey Ross]

Now I see that you are referring to an RF (Radius to Fix) leg, which has the odd looking 3/4s of a hold making sense  :)  I'm really only familiar RF legs because of another forum I'm on run by Avidyne, there are a few European users that have been asking for RF legs, apparently they are not uncommon there and the IFD4xx/5xx doesn't support them yet, maybe next software release.

Obviously Avare doesn't provide the ability to load the approach into your flight plan which I guess is why you are putting in all the user waypoints and unless you know for sure exactly which approach you are going to get you'll have to program the approach manually into Avare before you depart.  My suggestion would be to create a flight plan with each of the potential approaches you want drawn by Avare and load them once you know which one you are going to get.  Not a real clean approach but its the only way I can see making Avare do something it wasn't intended to do.

Jeff

On 7/5/20 5:17 PM, Keith Barr wrote:

Hi Jeff,

Your suggestion is exactly what I was thinking I would have to do, which is a mild nuisance, but certainly doable if the limit is fixed.

The second track shows an RNAV Required Navigation Performance Approach to 16R at DEN.  These are becoming much more common and will probably work their way to GA sooner than you think.  They often include curved flight tracks, as shown in my plot.

The plate is here:  https://aeronav.faa.gov/d-tpp/2007/09077RRZ16R.PDF

Here is my track with the chart overlaid on the map in Avare:

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[t v]

Hi Keith.

 33 way points to do a 180, and you hand fly it, that is an unnecessary work load. If you eliminate 70% of them you should still be able to get a decent turn, actually if you are instrument rated 2 points should be sufficient. If you eliminate the number of waypoints you should be able to use just one plan should fit in Avare.

It's not a complicated path and it should not need / have all that many waypoints.

This is not a very practical plan, regardless of the number of points you can include. TV

RNAV RNP approaches are usually flown by an autopilot but can be hand flown if desired.

[t v]

Hi Keith.

With and ATP you should know better than to use any portable device as primary navigation.

If you have the proper instrumentation for the approach, which I hope you do, you should not have any need for anything else.

What is it the you use Avare for? Are you aware that you may not use any portable device for anything other than static data, charts....TV

On Sunday, July 5, 2020 at 5:52:43 PM UTC-7, Keith Barr wrote:

TV,

Actually, I don't have an instrument rating.  They took it away when I earned my ATP (Airline Transport Pilot if you don't know what that is) which doesn't require an instrument rating as it is implied.  I was asking about software capabilities, not how to fly.  I will fall back on my thousands of hours of experience in the air to figure out how to navigate if its all the same to you.

RNP approaches must be flown with incredible precision, a defined radius turn cannot be flown with just two points.  This is a generalization, but for RNP, the aircraft should always be within 0.3 nm of where it is supposed to be, and is generally much more precise than that.  Obviously I am not flying RNP approaches with Avare, but it is a really nice backup.

If the software can't be changed I can work around it, but I just thought there might be an easy software fix (i.e. change one hardcoded value and presto it's done).

Thanks,
Keith

[Dean Gibson ATP/CFI]

Ooh, the temptation is oh so strong, but I'm resisting ...

[Dean Gibson ATP/CFI]

More temptation ...

On 2020-07-05 18:02, Keith Barr wrote:

...since I have been writing software for over 30 years, ...

[Peter Gustafson]

Hi Keith,

Looking at the plan code, it appears your guess was spot on.  I believe the relevant line is:

    private static final int MAX_DESTINATIONS = 100;

In the file app/src/main/java/com/ds/avare/place/Plan.java

I'm sure this was both relatively arbitrary and reasonable (which likely assumed hand flying waypoints and no autopilot integration). This number is used to size the array of strings for waypoints. Increasing this will increase memory usage proportionally (obviously). Zubair is careful with that to maintain older hardware utility. Are you able to compile your own apk file for avare?  If not, I can send you something unofficial to try.  How many waypoints do you think is reasonable?

On 7/5/20 9:02 PM, Keith Barr wrote:

Just for reference, what is the waypoint count limit?  I am guessing it is around 100.

[Keith Barr]

Hi Peter,

This is perfect.  Thanks a ton for filename and line to look for.  I haven't built the Avare APK, but I have built others, so I can give it a try on my own.  Are there build instructions on GitHub?

If I fail in my build I may ask you for an unofficial build.

Thanks,

Keith