Re: Digest for api-for-sharing@googlegroups.com - 2 Messages in 1 Topic
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Matthew Slater
Aug 13, 2012, 7:34:52 PM8/13/12
to api-for...@googlegroups.com
I was only able to let go of money when I fully identified with my mission as a technical specialist and a community builder.
There was a gradual transition when accidents happened, and I relied on my mother etc, but gradually supporters and partners came along.
A key part was to stop paying rent, living in a house, and to go meeting new people in my field, visiting them for several days, getting to know them and understand deeply what they were doing. I also had more time then to devote to reaching out to people and doing spontaneous projects, and was freer to manage myself.
I couldn't contemplate this (yet) if I had dependents. My health is very good, but when I had a tooth problem it took several months before I got to a subsidised dentist in my own country. I don't have debts, or a phone or a car or a bank account or a girlfriend. I tell people I need only a sofa and wifi, and that's how I feel. The rest is either a distraction or a bonus.
I don't feel socially excluded, partly because I'm not a very social being, but also because I know that the relationships I want do not need money to sustain them. Lots of people understand this, but while you are spending money you are not finding them.
And yes, without any cash at all, its easy to become too dependent. But this rarely happens. I'm all the time with allies, and they give me bits of money, and it goes a long way.
Another important thing for me, is that as a coder, I have hard, valuable skills to offer, and clear metrics of my effectiveness. Some of my work is done for Community Forge, which takes donations and fees and now I know it will help me in emergencies.
It's like it says in the bible. If you store up your riches in this world, they will be taken from you through taxes, interest, thieves etc. and what is left after that won't make you happy. However if you put other people in your debt, then you can access those riches any time, without having to worry about them! Something like that anyway.
--
There was a gradual transition when accidents happened, and I relied on my mother etc, but gradually supporters and partners came along.
A key part was to stop paying rent, living in a house, and to go meeting new people in my field, visiting them for several days, getting to know them and understand deeply what they were doing. I also had more time then to devote to reaching out to people and doing spontaneous projects, and was freer to manage myself.
I couldn't contemplate this (yet) if I had dependents. My health is very good, but when I had a tooth problem it took several months before I got to a subsidised dentist in my own country. I don't have debts, or a phone or a car or a bank account or a girlfriend. I tell people I need only a sofa and wifi, and that's how I feel. The rest is either a distraction or a bonus.
I don't feel socially excluded, partly because I'm not a very social being, but also because I know that the relationships I want do not need money to sustain them. Lots of people understand this, but while you are spending money you are not finding them.
And yes, without any cash at all, its easy to become too dependent. But this rarely happens. I'm all the time with allies, and they give me bits of money, and it goes a long way.
Another important thing for me, is that as a coder, I have hard, valuable skills to offer, and clear metrics of my effectiveness. Some of my work is done for Community Forge, which takes donations and fees and now I know it will help me in emergencies.
It's like it says in the bible. If you store up your riches in this world, they will be taken from you through taxes, interest, thieves etc. and what is left after that won't make you happy. However if you put other people in your debt, then you can access those riches any time, without having to worry about them! Something like that anyway.
On 13 August 2012 23:47, <api-for...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
Group: http://groups.google.com/group/api-for-sharing/topics
- [No Subject] [2 Updates]
Juho Makkonen <juho.m...@gmail.com> Aug 13 07:25AM -0700
Pavlik, I'm really looking forward to meeting you next month, I really want
to learn more about how you manage without any money. :) I'm definitely
trying to cope with as little money as I can (ok, actually I'm really lazy,
I know I could and should do a lot better than I do on that front - the
truth is i have a pretty normal western lifestyle), but I always notice
it's not so easy, when I start to think about it. Lots of questions. What
happens if you get sick and need surgery or some other expensive treatment?
What if you have parents, friends, a significant other or kids that don't
want to live without money, doesn't that exclude you from lots of
activities?
I have to say that I think money is really convenient. :) I don't
necessarily mean the money we currently have, but just the concept of
currency in general. It would be really difficult if we'd always need to
swap goods and services directly (or rely on indirect reciprocity) since
many matters are so complicated. I'm not sure our current economic system
is the best one, but I'm pretty sure we will - and should - always rely on
a currency of some sort. It simply makes people's lives so much easier,
that's why it was invented at some point. But I'm happy to hear
counter-arguments on this. :)
Cheers,
Juho
On Thursday, August 9, 2012 9:40:45 PM UTC+3, Pavlik elf wrote:
Paul Mackay <paulj...@gmail.com> Aug 13 08:09PM +0100
Hi,
Having just finished reading it, I'd recommend Mark Boyle's The Moneyless
Man. I'm not necessarily advocating one way or the other but it was a
fascinating read, some great insights to the benefits and challenges of
life without money.
cheers
paul
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Find out more about my work in local money systems
My personal web site including my blog, Adventures in mutual credit
Interview on Corbett Report Radio
Brief bio and articles on shareable.net
Juho Makkonen
Aug 14, 2012, 4:58:46 AM8/14/12
to api-for...@googlegroups.com
Matthew, thanks for sharing! I truly admire you and Pavlik for being able to live the way you do. I think this kind of discussions are really important when we talk about the vision behind the sharing economy.
I've had times when I didn't have a real home but instead kept travelling between several locations, and it made me feel very stressed and insecure. Now I live with my girlfriend in a rented apartment and feel really happy and content. It would feel really difficult if we couldn't pay our rent and had to switch between multiple different locations. As you said, if we had kids, it would be even more difficult. Also, last summer I broke my leg and had to undergo expensive surgery, that wouldn't have been possible without my insurance. I guess these are the main reasons it would feel difficult to abandon money completely. To me money is just a way to know for sure that I have access to certain resources I need, when I need them, and that thought makes me more secure and, yes, happy in my life. As many studies say, after a certain (fairly low) point getting more money won't bring you happiness, but if you are below that point, it does.
Matthew, Pavlik, why do you feel it's important to live without money?
-juho
elf Pavlik
Aug 14, 2012, 8:05:07 AM8/14/12
to Juho Makkonen, api-for-sharing
Hi Juho,
Excerpts from Juho Makkonen's message of 2012-08-14 08:58:46 +0000:
+ To prove it possible by doing it starting from myself and *test pilot* current state of moneyless living possibilities.
+ To stay more realistic and don't let this man mind created fiction distract me.
+ To not participate in IMO very pathological system which functions only as long as people CHOOSE to participate in it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwmM5Nb6hiE&t=26m44s
+ To stay more realistic again, if I receive food I feel grateful to people who make it possible (grow, process, transport eltc.) and look how I support their lives as well in spirit of reciprocity. Many people who buy food with money may not even realize who truly supports them and who well being they may take into account choosing what they contribute to: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlightened_self-interest
+ To stay honest and true to myself, once I realized that we don't have to cultivate use of this *fictionary* system of money, and imagined how live could look if we do it differently, choosing to still participate in this crippled system feels like lying to myself and others.
+ Experience of receiving and giving something from warmth of heart or even just from simple awareness of outcome and care about this outcome feels very alive, recalling of dry, impersonal, often dishonest relations in surroundings where people focus on playing this money game just feel completely unattractive and unwelcome.
I guess I could one day take more time to write more of my personal take on this topic, share it online and take advantage of hyper links, but first I want to move on with some codding :D
Hugs <3
☮ elf Pavlik ☮
Excerpts from Juho Makkonen's message of 2012-08-14 08:58:46 +0000:
> Matthew, Pavlik, why do you feel it's important to live without money?
I'll answer it here very shortly just with couple of points (order of this list intentionally not significant) :
+ To prove it possible by doing it starting from myself and *test pilot* current state of moneyless living possibilities.
+ To stay more realistic and don't let this man mind created fiction distract me.
+ To not participate in IMO very pathological system which functions only as long as people CHOOSE to participate in it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwmM5Nb6hiE&t=26m44s
+ To stay more realistic again, if I receive food I feel grateful to people who make it possible (grow, process, transport eltc.) and look how I support their lives as well in spirit of reciprocity. Many people who buy food with money may not even realize who truly supports them and who well being they may take into account choosing what they contribute to: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlightened_self-interest
+ To stay honest and true to myself, once I realized that we don't have to cultivate use of this *fictionary* system of money, and imagined how live could look if we do it differently, choosing to still participate in this crippled system feels like lying to myself and others.
+ Experience of receiving and giving something from warmth of heart or even just from simple awareness of outcome and care about this outcome feels very alive, recalling of dry, impersonal, often dishonest relations in surroundings where people focus on playing this money game just feel completely unattractive and unwelcome.
I guess I could one day take more time to write more of my personal take on this topic, share it online and take advantage of hyper links, but first I want to move on with some codding :D
Hugs <3
☮ elf Pavlik ☮
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