Chopin- "Desiree's Baby"

[Mrs. Terenzi]

Answer and explain your answer to the following question: When did Armand know?  Cite evidence in your response. 

 

Feel free to pose questions or respond to posts previous to yours.

[walidabou17]

From what I understood, I believe that Amand knew all along. Once the baby was born, he knew; Armand himself had a slave mother, which he finds out in the end. Even Madame Valmonde notices something about the baby after she see's him after three weeks, as it appears to us that she is in shock: "'This is not the baby!' she exclaimed, in startled tone." Desiree knew that her mother would be astonished. Moreover, Armond, before the baby was born, was somewhat cruel to the slaves in La Branche's cabin: "Young Aubigny's rule was a strict one, too, and under it his negroes had forgotten to be gay." The slaves weren't happy on how he ruled, however, after the birth of the baby, he became more understanding. Desiree says that Armand didn't punish any of the slaves after the birth of the baby, even if they had done something worth punishment, "Even Negrillon, who pretended to have burnt his leg that he might rest from work - he only laghed, and said Negrillon was a great scamp." He changed his attitude towards all the slaves, and I think that this is due to the fact that he realized his son is not fully white. He knew that it was not Desiree to blame; all along he knew it was himself as he was searching for a letter (the letter he finds towards the end of the short story) that would answer all his questions regarding his race. 

[katya.perez74]

Let me start off by saying that there are two things that I believe Armand knew...

The first is what he thought he knew; Armand thought that Desiree was responsible for why his child was part-African American. I think that he began to realize this a little bit after the baby was born, because even when Desiree's mother came to visit shortly after the baby's birth, it was clear that she and Zandrine saw that something wasn't right about the baby. It was only a matter of time before these suspicions would find their way to Armand. I believe it was when the baby was three months old that Armand finally heard of these suspicions and had neighbors come to visit the baby as a way to confirm the "rumors." Eventually, Armand grew to believe these rumors, and that's when he thought he knew.

However, I think that when Armand actually knew the truth, it was during the bonfire as he read the letter from his mother. I think it was at that time that Armand learned the true reality of the situation, and discovered that Desiree wasn't responsible for the baby being of a mixed race.

And I'm really confused as to what the significance of the colors are supposed to mean. I feel like they just help to set the tone or mood of the scene, but I'm not 100% sure.

[katya.perez74]

I think that this is a really interesting argument, but I feel that there are some things that can challenge this idea.

If Armand knew all along that he was part-black, then why would he have punished the slaves prior to the baby's birth? Wouldn't he be more understanding of the slaves' hardships before this time, and have been a better master like his father was?

Also, why would Armand have let Desiree leave him if he knew that he was really part-black? The story does say that he was deeply in love with her from the moment he met her, so why would he let go of someone he loves so badly and lose his only son and heir?

Just a thought, don't take it personally :)

[Mrs. Terenzi]

Katya,  good work in observing the colors.  I was going to tell the class to notice the white, black, and yellow.  Let's see if anyone else has some ideas about this.  

[maggylovesjellyfish]

I feel as though Armand was aware that he had black blood throughout the entire story. He was born into a prestigious white family that was well known in Louisiana and if it were ever suspected or revealed that he was in some way black he would immediately be shunned and ruin the family's reputation. Young Armand is regarded as being the harshest with the slaves, this is most likely because he wants to distance himself as far away as he can from that lifestyle and truth. Additionally, when black colors appear in the text they have ominous and foreboding connotations. Shadows are referenced more than once, a symbol of obscured truth and darkness. When whites appear, they come in softer formats like lace and cotton, soft and gentle. I believe that Armand genuinely loved Desiree and his rejecting her was not because he believed she had black blood, but because their baby reminded him of what he was and he could not bear it. If he did not know it himself, it is likely that he would have accussed her in a public manner, instead of ignoring them both. He also mentions that God has dealt "cruelly and unjustly with him", not because of the surprise situation, but because of his own race and inabilty to change it. Once Armand burns all of Desiree and the baby's belongings he also burn his mother's letter, all of the proof of what he really is and how much he needs to hide it. I also think that it is significant that the baby's name is never mentioned, as though it was never a human to Armand.

[Kevin Sanchez]

I want to say that Armand knew just about the time that the baby was about 3 months old. During that moment Desiree saw "am awful change in her husbands manner". He constantly ignored her and was in and out of the house at many times. This level of frustration makes me think that this is the opponent that he knew about Desiree's baby as well as her origin. The only thing that might make me think differently is in the fourth paragraph where when he first laid his eyes upon her. It mentions that he looked into her eyes "and did not care."

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From: katya.perez74 <katya....@gmail.com>
To: apes-2...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 11:15 PM
Subject: Re: Chopin- "Desiree's Baby"

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[Desiree Vargas]

 

I think that Armand knew all along that he was part African American. I feel as though he kind of just was in denial of it and chose to block it out because he could not think of his mother in such a bad way. When the narrator states, "Young Aubigny's rule was a strict one, too, and under it his negros had forgotten how to be gay, as they had been during the old master's easy-going and indulgent lifetime", i think Armand always treated slaves cruely because he resented them and the fact that he was of their decendent and his father was more kind to the slaves because he was more open and accepting to his wife and her race. I think Armand was so affected by her race because he thought so highly of his name, yet in reality he was a part of such a cursed race. When the narrator shows that something has gone wrong with Armand and his mood, i think that it shows that as the baby continued to grow it became more noticiable to him and everyone around him that the baby was not of full white race and this enraged him and made him face reality that he was part African American. He began to blame it on Desiree because he did not want to bring shame to his name and since Desiree was adopted and had no name it was easier to blame him and convince her that it was her that was in fact not white. At the end of the story the author chooses to let us know the truth about what has happened and in the end Armand shows that he now fully knows that he is not pure white. My only question is, is Armand truely the only one that is part black or is Desiree too?

From: Mrs. Terenzi <althea....@gmail.com>
To: apes-2...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 8:27 PM
Subject: Re: Chopin- "Desiree's Baby"

Katya,  good work in observing the colors.  I was going to tell the class to notice the white, black, and yellow.  Let's see if anyone else has some ideas about this.   --
 
 

[Mrs. Terenzi]

Walid, great job referencing the text to support your analysis.  I wonder: you write that "He knew that it was not Desiree to blame."  How did he know that?  Was it when he read the letter?

[Mrs. Terenzi]

Kevin, just to push the analysis a bit further, is there evidence that it is Desiree who is part black?  Chopin plants seeds of doubt throughout the story-- Desiree's heritage is unknown.  But what do we come to find out about Armand's own heritage?

[Mrs. Terenzi]

Good question, Desiree.  Desiree's own race is ambiguous, so we must look carefully at external clues in the setting for guidance (see Maggie's analysis of color symbolism, for example), but even then we will never be able to say with certainty.  Now I have a question for you:  How sympathetic a character is Armand?  Do you think he is pure evil?

[Walid_94]

You put up some great counter-arguments, however, I feel like he thought it was necessary for him to punish he slaces; he didn't want others to grow suspicion - he wanted to distance himself from his own race. But as soon as his child was born, he knew he had to deal with reality and stop the tortures because he was scared for his son's future. 

and haha don't worry I didn't :)

[Mrs. Terenzi]

Some great observations here, Maggie.  You're touching upon some complex racial issues, such as the self-hatred many African Americans faced as the result of society's hatred toward them.  I wonder, why is Armand so adamant about keeping his family's reputation if his own father was not?  Would he really have been judged so harshly, or is this just his own racism coming through?

[maggylovesjellyfish]

If Armand's own father was black, his skin did not show it and neither did his child's. Perhaps Armand's mother was actually black. In any case, Armand holds a different position because his own child had darker skin. The reputation of his family, not only now but through the ages, would be destroyed if they traced him to any black blood. However, I believe he is absorbed in racism, but that is a product of the times and society. Even those who accept their race will know that their race has oppressed them in some way and they cannot move forward. Armand is a man of power and he cannot risk being brought down.

[Kevin Sanchez]

yeah Mrs. Terenzi, youre right Desiree's race is never really determined. Just wondering, why do author do that (leave a sense of a doubt)? I feel as though writers would represent their purpose of a piece through symbols or some other form of literature methods and let the reader figure it out through that. So does Chopin still want to leave her audience in question? And yeah I forgot to mention that he does figure out his own heritage through a letter intended from his mom to his dad. Armand is in fact part black

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From: Mrs. Terenzi <althea....@gmail.com>
To: apes-2...@googlegroups.com

Cc: Kevin Sanchez <kevin...@yahoo.com>
Sent: Monday, September 3, 2012 8:57 PM

Subject: Re: Chopin- "Desiree's Baby"

Kevin, just to push the analysis a bit further, is there evidence that it is Desiree who is part black?  Chopin plants seeds of doubt throughout the story-- Desiree's heritage is unknown.  But what do we come to find out about Armand's own heritage?

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[katya.perez74]

I just want to say that I've been following everybody's arguments and I can officially say that I've been persuaded to believe that Armand knew all along that he was of a mixed-race. At first I was confused as to why he would punish his slaves and then blame Desiree, but now I understand why he would want to distance himself from his race and not want to add "shame" to his family name. I think that Maggie's interpretations of the dark colors throughout the story is very good, but I have my own interpretations on some of the lighter colors. I think that the color white is connected with "soft lace" often is a way to express Desiree's soft, kind personality, but the white also represents the fact that Desiree is actually white. Maybe it's a bit too literal of an interpretation, but after changing my opinion that Armand framed Desiree to be black, i think it's actually possible. I also think that the appearance of yellow is supposed to be a form of irony, considering that yellow is bright, and clear, even though Desiree's origins and Armand's secret are not.