INTRODUCE YOURSELF
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cynic...@gmail.com
Jun 7, 2008, 3:08:19 PM6/7/08
to ANTI GWC
It is important for our group to be a community. You don't need to
include personal specifics about your life, but each member ought to
explain their connection and relationship to GWC and TJed.
My name is Cynical Pen, I am a writer and a critic. I investigated the
school and attended a number of seminars and programs, which I have
thoroughly reviews. I have spoken with most the administration and
many of the faculty, observed exams, and attended lectures. Having
been a student of two major universities, I am sad to say the quality
and rigor of education at GWC is below high school. The students are
paying outstanding prices -- but not receiving an equivalent product.
This is theft. GWC misrepresents itself and profoundly exaggerates the
value of its education. The students going there will inevitably have
a difficult time coping with life financially and socially, in our
increasingly progressive world, and progressively receding economy.
The views and politics expressed at GWC are distorted, and any open-
minded student will be subjecting himself to an extreme bias for an
extended period of time, in a critical moment of their life, the young
and impressionable 20's.
These are reasons enough to speak out. But the list continues.
include personal specifics about your life, but each member ought to
explain their connection and relationship to GWC and TJed.
My name is Cynical Pen, I am a writer and a critic. I investigated the
school and attended a number of seminars and programs, which I have
thoroughly reviews. I have spoken with most the administration and
many of the faculty, observed exams, and attended lectures. Having
been a student of two major universities, I am sad to say the quality
and rigor of education at GWC is below high school. The students are
paying outstanding prices -- but not receiving an equivalent product.
This is theft. GWC misrepresents itself and profoundly exaggerates the
value of its education. The students going there will inevitably have
a difficult time coping with life financially and socially, in our
increasingly progressive world, and progressively receding economy.
The views and politics expressed at GWC are distorted, and any open-
minded student will be subjecting himself to an extreme bias for an
extended period of time, in a critical moment of their life, the young
and impressionable 20's.
These are reasons enough to speak out. But the list continues.
Message has been deleted
cynic...@gmail.com
Jun 9, 2008, 3:28:11 PM6/9/08
to ANTI GWC
Not to mention that your thorough review of TJed method was both
candid and brilliant.
On Jun 7, 6:36 pm, random.cri...@yahoo.com wrote:
> My pen name is Random Critic, in my free time I like to read history,
> and I have a specific interest in intellectual history focused on the
> geographic areas of Utah, American, European, and Middle East. I was a
> terrible high school student, who at one time should have been in an
> alternative school. Since then, I received a full tuition scholarship
> in music, completed a B.A. in history and secondary education, post
> B.A. certificate in special education, M.S. in special education, and
> am now pursuing a Ph.D. in the psychological and behavioral sciences.
> Within psychology I am a follower of Skinner, Tolman, Kantor, and many
> others. My theoretical background is a mixture of behavioral,
> interbehavioral, ecological, and cognitive psychology. I am
> emphatically neutral in my political views. I am a strong supporter of
> public education, and I believe that it can be better - if, and only
> if, educators adopt EVIDENCE BASED, SCIENTIFICALLY RESEARCHED methods.
> This brings me to my reasons for why I am a part of the anti-gwc
> google group.
>
> Two major things happened several years ago which led me down this
> path. First, when I became a teacher I interviewed at a private school
> that was attempting to utilize Kimber and TjEd-based curricula. I got
> the worst impression about the people that were running this "school."
> They made many promises 1) they would pay better than public tuition,
> 2) they would fit LDS standards, 3) they would be a charter school
> within a couple of months so that the job would be more guaranteed, 4)
> it was a business model that if they were unhappy they could fire me
> and if I was unhappy I could give them 2 weeks notice. All 4 of those
> points bothered me. I never even sent them the additional info they
> wanted me to send, and I found a job in the public schools. I was not
> surprised when the "school" shut down a month after school started and
> that all teachers lost their jobs at a time in the school year that
> they could not get another job until the next school year began. I
> remember feeling very sorry for the poor saps who took that job.
>
> The other thing that happened was a student I knew whose parents
> started an LDS (TjEd/Kimber type) private school. They claimed that
> the students at their school were reading at a college level, doing
> advanced algebra, etc. - all before they reached 7th grade. The money
> ran out, and they had to put their kids in public school. When their
> son came to my department's attention, I found out that he had a
> severe cognitive disability (that is, mental retardation). The parents
> protested and would not accept that. This child did not receive any of
> the instruction that he needed because he was in a depriving
> environment - especially since he had a disability that was not
> identified.
>
> I remain conviced that GWC's model, theoretical background, and most
> faculty members there are seriously flawed. I have no problems with
> reading classical literature, however, the faculty at GWC expect that
> reading and discussing classics is worth over $15,000 per year. It is
> not. I can go to the library, pick up Euclid and Newton and learn
> about where math/physics have been. I need a professor to tell me
> where math/physics are going - something that is worth the money
> because very few people on the earth can really do that. I am willing
> to pay for an interpretation of Shakespeare by somebody who has spent
> their life studying the subject rather than by somebody who has a
> broad education. The narrow nature of graduate education is very
> important and GWC does not and cannot provide that. For example, I am
> at a university in the midwest that has some of the nation's top
> scholars in very narrow areas of education and psychology. GWC cannot
> provide that level of research. If they could, we would have access to
> all of their dissertations. We would see journal articles in peer-
> reviewed journals from Oliver DeMille. This is why I care.
>
> I think liberal arts colleges are great for undergraduate education.
> However, one as flawed as GWC is unlikely to flourish (expect among a
> small contingent of DeMille followers). To me, it is theft of the
> worst kind to tell students that they are receiving the most
> challenging education in the world when universities like Harvard,
> Yale, Columbia, and EVERY PUBLIC UNIVERSITY/COLLEGE in the USA provide
> a much broader, more useful education.
>
> I know this was a long introduction, but I figure Cynical Pen has
> written so much on his blog already, that his introduction didn't need
> to be as long as mine.
> > These are reasons enough to speak out. But the list continues.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
candid and brilliant.
On Jun 7, 6:36 pm, random.cri...@yahoo.com wrote:
> My pen name is Random Critic, in my free time I like to read history,
> and I have a specific interest in intellectual history focused on the
> geographic areas of Utah, American, European, and Middle East. I was a
> terrible high school student, who at one time should have been in an
> alternative school. Since then, I received a full tuition scholarship
> in music, completed a B.A. in history and secondary education, post
> B.A. certificate in special education, M.S. in special education, and
> am now pursuing a Ph.D. in the psychological and behavioral sciences.
> Within psychology I am a follower of Skinner, Tolman, Kantor, and many
> others. My theoretical background is a mixture of behavioral,
> interbehavioral, ecological, and cognitive psychology. I am
> emphatically neutral in my political views. I am a strong supporter of
> public education, and I believe that it can be better - if, and only
> if, educators adopt EVIDENCE BASED, SCIENTIFICALLY RESEARCHED methods.
> This brings me to my reasons for why I am a part of the anti-gwc
> google group.
>
> Two major things happened several years ago which led me down this
> path. First, when I became a teacher I interviewed at a private school
> that was attempting to utilize Kimber and TjEd-based curricula. I got
> the worst impression about the people that were running this "school."
> They made many promises 1) they would pay better than public tuition,
> 2) they would fit LDS standards, 3) they would be a charter school
> within a couple of months so that the job would be more guaranteed, 4)
> it was a business model that if they were unhappy they could fire me
> and if I was unhappy I could give them 2 weeks notice. All 4 of those
> points bothered me. I never even sent them the additional info they
> wanted me to send, and I found a job in the public schools. I was not
> surprised when the "school" shut down a month after school started and
> that all teachers lost their jobs at a time in the school year that
> they could not get another job until the next school year began. I
> remember feeling very sorry for the poor saps who took that job.
>
> The other thing that happened was a student I knew whose parents
> started an LDS (TjEd/Kimber type) private school. They claimed that
> the students at their school were reading at a college level, doing
> advanced algebra, etc. - all before they reached 7th grade. The money
> ran out, and they had to put their kids in public school. When their
> son came to my department's attention, I found out that he had a
> severe cognitive disability (that is, mental retardation). The parents
> protested and would not accept that. This child did not receive any of
> the instruction that he needed because he was in a depriving
> environment - especially since he had a disability that was not
> identified.
>
> I remain conviced that GWC's model, theoretical background, and most
> faculty members there are seriously flawed. I have no problems with
> reading classical literature, however, the faculty at GWC expect that
> reading and discussing classics is worth over $15,000 per year. It is
> not. I can go to the library, pick up Euclid and Newton and learn
> about where math/physics have been. I need a professor to tell me
> where math/physics are going - something that is worth the money
> because very few people on the earth can really do that. I am willing
> to pay for an interpretation of Shakespeare by somebody who has spent
> their life studying the subject rather than by somebody who has a
> broad education. The narrow nature of graduate education is very
> important and GWC does not and cannot provide that. For example, I am
> at a university in the midwest that has some of the nation's top
> scholars in very narrow areas of education and psychology. GWC cannot
> provide that level of research. If they could, we would have access to
> all of their dissertations. We would see journal articles in peer-
> reviewed journals from Oliver DeMille. This is why I care.
>
> I think liberal arts colleges are great for undergraduate education.
> However, one as flawed as GWC is unlikely to flourish (expect among a
> small contingent of DeMille followers). To me, it is theft of the
> worst kind to tell students that they are receiving the most
> challenging education in the world when universities like Harvard,
> Yale, Columbia, and EVERY PUBLIC UNIVERSITY/COLLEGE in the USA provide
> a much broader, more useful education.
>
> I know this was a long introduction, but I figure Cynical Pen has
> written so much on his blog already, that his introduction didn't need
> to be as long as mine.
>
> - Show quoted text -
The Real George Wythe
Jul 23, 2008, 5:08:40 PM7/23/08
to ANTI GWC
My pen name is The Real George Wythe. I am all for reading good
literature, and even have the full set of the Harvard Classics on a
bookshelf in my home. I am also all for mentors and have benefited
from good mentors in my life. Unfortunately, I am also in favor of
good textbooks and good professors. It does bring me comfort however
that the real Thomas Jefferson felt the same way.
I highly recommend an objective study of TJEd and the bio of Oliver
DeMille. Try http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliver_DeMille for starters.
literature, and even have the full set of the Harvard Classics on a
bookshelf in my home. I am also all for mentors and have benefited
from good mentors in my life. Unfortunately, I am also in favor of
good textbooks and good professors. It does bring me comfort however
that the real Thomas Jefferson felt the same way.
I highly recommend an objective study of TJEd and the bio of Oliver
DeMille. Try http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliver_DeMille for starters.
Cynical Pen
Jul 23, 2008, 10:25:08 PM7/23/08
to anti...@googlegroups.com
Um.... that doesn't give us much.
Message has been deleted
cynic...@gmail.com
Jul 30, 2008, 10:46:26 AM7/30/08
to ANTI GWC
Hmm well let's consider these possibilities.
If it is a) Oliver DeMille, then I would suggest that they are in deep
trouble. If their own founding father has the free time and the
boredom to meander into our forum and make an abysmal attempt at
defending his non-honor, then that's pretty said.
If it is b) Shannon Brooks then our very own self-righteous all-
important captain of GWC and master of bullshit is also too bored and
has too much time, indicating once again that the operation of their
school is very casual and non-serious in nature. Although I doubt
Shannon came here because pretending GWC is a legitimate institution
is a full-time job. Unlike everyone else there, Shannon's hands have
to be busy - because it's his job to cover up all the bull shit.
It can't bs C. Because L Ron Hubbard, con that he was, was still much
smarter and more capable than anyone at GWC, and much more creative.
Also I happen to know that the reincarnation of LRH is Stan from South
Park, and despite his crude language Stan is too nice of a person to
do the crimes GWC is guilty for.
And if it's d, that seems pretty likely. Although it's slightly
redundant to say a "deeply troubled gwc student" when you could have
just said "a gwc student" since there is no other type.
e is also a possibility, worth considering at least.
If it is a) Oliver DeMille, then I would suggest that they are in deep
trouble. If their own founding father has the free time and the
boredom to meander into our forum and make an abysmal attempt at
defending his non-honor, then that's pretty said.
If it is b) Shannon Brooks then our very own self-righteous all-
important captain of GWC and master of bullshit is also too bored and
has too much time, indicating once again that the operation of their
school is very casual and non-serious in nature. Although I doubt
Shannon came here because pretending GWC is a legitimate institution
is a full-time job. Unlike everyone else there, Shannon's hands have
to be busy - because it's his job to cover up all the bull shit.
It can't bs C. Because L Ron Hubbard, con that he was, was still much
smarter and more capable than anyone at GWC, and much more creative.
Also I happen to know that the reincarnation of LRH is Stan from South
Park, and despite his crude language Stan is too nice of a person to
do the crimes GWC is guilty for.
And if it's d, that seems pretty likely. Although it's slightly
redundant to say a "deeply troubled gwc student" when you could have
just said "a gwc student" since there is no other type.
e is also a possibility, worth considering at least.
The Real George Wythe
Aug 2, 2008, 8:36:44 PM8/2/08
to ANTI GWC
Sorry I should have been more clear! I am definitely NOT pro-GWC.
Jefferson had good ideas about education, but his name has been
hijacked to promote an impoverished pedagogy (TJEd), and Wythe's has
been hijacked to promote a shadow of a real institution of higher
learning (GWC). On behalf of the real George Wythe and the real Thomas
Jefferson, I have returned the favor by hijacking the google id
"odem...@gmail.com" (which was, amazingly, still available). I have
spent hours revising and expanding the Wikipedia articles on DeMille,
GWC, and TJEd (not so much on that one), as well as creating articles
for Coral Ridge Baptist University, Comanity, and Shanon Brooks. I
have been very careful to be objective and only state facts that can
be sourced reliably. The facts speak for themselves. I relied a lot on
Stout's "Diploma DeMille" for the timeline, and Brooks's "First 15
Years" for the narrative. Combining those two is pretty damning.
Read the Wikipedia articles, and please help improve them as
necessary!
Sorry for the confusion! Re-read my original post with this add'l
clarification in mind!
Thanks,
The Real George Wythe (who is not, incidentally, the real O. DeMille)
Jefferson had good ideas about education, but his name has been
hijacked to promote an impoverished pedagogy (TJEd), and Wythe's has
been hijacked to promote a shadow of a real institution of higher
learning (GWC). On behalf of the real George Wythe and the real Thomas
Jefferson, I have returned the favor by hijacking the google id
"odem...@gmail.com" (which was, amazingly, still available). I have
spent hours revising and expanding the Wikipedia articles on DeMille,
GWC, and TJEd (not so much on that one), as well as creating articles
for Coral Ridge Baptist University, Comanity, and Shanon Brooks. I
have been very careful to be objective and only state facts that can
be sourced reliably. The facts speak for themselves. I relied a lot on
Stout's "Diploma DeMille" for the timeline, and Brooks's "First 15
Years" for the narrative. Combining those two is pretty damning.
Read the Wikipedia articles, and please help improve them as
necessary!
Sorry for the confusion! Re-read my original post with this add'l
clarification in mind!
Thanks,
The Real George Wythe (who is not, incidentally, the real O. DeMille)
Cynical Pen
Aug 3, 2008, 2:40:01 PM8/3/08
to anti...@googlegroups.com
Much better. So, who are you and what is your connection to GWC? What I mean is, the school is still relatively unknown, but each of us have brushed it at some point and come away with a sour taste or a dark feeling. What is your experience?
The Real George Wythe
Aug 5, 2008, 1:57:53 AM8/5/08
to ANTI GWC
I actually visited GWC once back in 2004 I think, when it was in the
basement floor of a retail center (I read somewhere recently that the
top floor was a dentist's office). I was passing through Cedar City
with a relative and she insisted on visiting "the campus." Whatever, I
thought, a bad facility doesn't necessarily mean a bad school. I was
skeptical, but tried to give them the benefit of the doubt. Fast
forward a few years, and a close relative of mine actually attended
GWC this past school year, shelled out the $ for tuition, and spent a
good part of the summer trying to sell services for Comanity (quasi-
multilevel marketing; look into it) with very little luck in an
attempt to cover next year's tuition. The more I learned from her and
from digging around, the worse the school started to appear. I read
the timesandseasons.org posting. I read the Stout article/essay. And
yes, I read and re-read "The First Fifteen Years." I think "First
Fifteen" is damning on its own if you analyze it rationally and excise
all the hyperbole and name-dropping. My motivation for getting
involved mostly revolves around trying to help my relative leave GWC
behind and look out for her own interests by enrolling in a school
that will actually help her in life. I'm not against Mormons, and not
against homeschooling. I want to help people draw the distinction
between TJEd and good homeschooling, and between the GWC players and
the rest of Mormondom.
On Aug 3, 11:40 am, "Cynical Pen" <cynical...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Much better. So, who are you and what is your connection to GWC? What I mean
> is, the school is still relatively unknown, but each of us have brushed it
> at some point and come away with a sour taste or a dark feeling. What is
> your experience?
>
basement floor of a retail center (I read somewhere recently that the
top floor was a dentist's office). I was passing through Cedar City
with a relative and she insisted on visiting "the campus." Whatever, I
thought, a bad facility doesn't necessarily mean a bad school. I was
skeptical, but tried to give them the benefit of the doubt. Fast
forward a few years, and a close relative of mine actually attended
GWC this past school year, shelled out the $ for tuition, and spent a
good part of the summer trying to sell services for Comanity (quasi-
multilevel marketing; look into it) with very little luck in an
attempt to cover next year's tuition. The more I learned from her and
from digging around, the worse the school started to appear. I read
the timesandseasons.org posting. I read the Stout article/essay. And
yes, I read and re-read "The First Fifteen Years." I think "First
Fifteen" is damning on its own if you analyze it rationally and excise
all the hyperbole and name-dropping. My motivation for getting
involved mostly revolves around trying to help my relative leave GWC
behind and look out for her own interests by enrolling in a school
that will actually help her in life. I'm not against Mormons, and not
against homeschooling. I want to help people draw the distinction
between TJEd and good homeschooling, and between the GWC players and
the rest of Mormondom.
On Aug 3, 11:40 am, "Cynical Pen" <cynical...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Much better. So, who are you and what is your connection to GWC? What I mean
> is, the school is still relatively unknown, but each of us have brushed it
> at some point and come away with a sour taste or a dark feeling. What is
> your experience?
>
> On Sat, Aug 2, 2008 at 6:36 PM, The Real George Wythe <odemi...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>
>
> > Sorry I should have been more clear! I am definitely NOT pro-GWC.
> > Jefferson had good ideas about education, but his name has been
> > hijacked to promote an impoverished pedagogy (TJEd), and Wythe's has
> > been hijacked to promote a shadow of a real institution of higher
> > learning (GWC). On behalf of the real George Wythe and the real Thomas
> > Jefferson, I have returned the favor by hijacking the google id
> > "odemi...@gmail.com" (which was, amazingly, still available). I have
>
>
>
> > Sorry I should have been more clear! I am definitely NOT pro-GWC.
> > Jefferson had good ideas about education, but his name has been
> > hijacked to promote an impoverished pedagogy (TJEd), and Wythe's has
> > been hijacked to promote a shadow of a real institution of higher
> > learning (GWC). On behalf of the real George Wythe and the real Thomas
> > Jefferson, I have returned the favor by hijacking the google id
Cynical Pen
Aug 5, 2008, 10:36:18 AM8/5/08
to anti...@googlegroups.com
Then you and I are a lot alike. I had never heard of this "school" until 2006 when my cousin who, despite a genuine lack of wisdom, is actually quite bright. Someone who probably could have taken a lot from a solid education at a proven school with challenging criteria, offers qualified staff, proven methods, and rigorous standards, things GWC completely lacks. That's my original beef with the school. But she insisted I investigate further and I did, the deeper I went the fouler the stench and the more disgusted I became. The worst part is the lack of awareness people have, those involved are literally brainwashed by just being in a 5 mile radius of the place, and everybody else simply has never heard of the school. If there is one thing we can do--it's increase public awareness. Though it still amazes me that GWC's own efforts (like that ridiculous radio prgram) don't completely discredit them in the eyes of the whole universe, why some intelligent people allow themselves to be sucked into something that is so obviously empty... that just blows my mind.
Message has been deleted
Cynical Pen
Aug 11, 2008, 10:12:34 AM8/11/08
to anti...@googlegroups.com
Hatred that was thrown at you, how and in what form? I've always wanted to poke the beehive but I have no way to contact/be-contacted-by the students directly.
On 8/10/08, random...@yahoo.com <random...@yahoo.com> wrote:
I was among the first to start fixing the wikipedia entries for the
ones that you mention and you should have seen the hatred that was
spewed at me by several fools from G.W."C."
Thanks for the clarification. I just had to mention L. Ron.
On Aug 2, 7:36 pm, The Real George Wythe <odemi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Sorry I should have been more clear! I am definitely NOT pro-GWC.
> Jefferson had good ideas about education, but his name has been
> hijacked to promote an impoverished pedagogy (TJEd), and Wythe's has
> been hijacked to promote a shadow of a real institution of higher
> learning (GWC). On behalf of the real George Wythe and the real Thomas
> Jefferson, I have returned the favor by hijacking the google id
> "odemi...@gmail.com" (which was, amazingly, still available). I have
> > e is also a possibility, worth considering at least.- Hide quoted text -
The Real George Wythe
Aug 11, 2008, 5:25:32 PM8/11/08
to ANTI GWC
I did get some pushback at first -- accused of "having a beef" with
GWC, etc.
I haven't heard anything in a while, and I continue to make edits to
GWC, DeMille, TJEd, etc., basically with impunity. I think my edits
reflect a neutral point of view. It's actually nice to get all the
facts into one place, plain and bare with no opinion. Opinions really
aren't needed--the facts are rich enough on their own. To paraphrase
one of the greats--maybe it was Goethe, or Virgil, Joan of Arc, Mother
Theresa, Martin Luther King, or Socrates--one of the greats said: "The
facts shout so loudly in my ears I cannot hear what you're saying." Or
maybe that was Ghandi...
On Aug 10, 7:30 pm, random.cri...@yahoo.com wrote:
> I was among the first to start fixing the wikipedia entries for the
> ones that you mention and you should have seen the hatred that was
> spewed at me by several fools from G.W."C."
>
> Thanks for the clarification. I just had to mention L. Ron.
>
> On Aug 2, 7:36 pm, The Real George Wythe <odemi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
GWC, etc.
I haven't heard anything in a while, and I continue to make edits to
GWC, DeMille, TJEd, etc., basically with impunity. I think my edits
reflect a neutral point of view. It's actually nice to get all the
facts into one place, plain and bare with no opinion. Opinions really
aren't needed--the facts are rich enough on their own. To paraphrase
one of the greats--maybe it was Goethe, or Virgil, Joan of Arc, Mother
Theresa, Martin Luther King, or Socrates--one of the greats said: "The
facts shout so loudly in my ears I cannot hear what you're saying." Or
maybe that was Ghandi...
On Aug 10, 7:30 pm, random.cri...@yahoo.com wrote:
> I was among the first to start fixing the wikipedia entries for the
> ones that you mention and you should have seen the hatred that was
> spewed at me by several fools from G.W."C."
>
> Thanks for the clarification. I just had to mention L. Ron.
>
> On Aug 2, 7:36 pm, The Real George Wythe <odemi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Sorry I should have been more clear! I am definitely NOT pro-GWC.
> > Jefferson had good ideas about education, but his name has been
> > hijacked to promote an impoverished pedagogy (TJEd), and Wythe's has
> > been hijacked to promote a shadow of a real institution of higher
> > learning (GWC). On behalf of the real George Wythe and the real Thomas
> > Jefferson, I have returned the favor by hijacking the google id
> > "odemi...@gmail.com" (which was, amazingly, still available). I have
> > Jefferson had good ideas about education, but his name has been
> > hijacked to promote an impoverished pedagogy (TJEd), and Wythe's has
> > been hijacked to promote a shadow of a real institution of higher
> > learning (GWC). On behalf of the real George Wythe and the real Thomas
> > Jefferson, I have returned the favor by hijacking the google id
random...@yahoo.com
Aug 12, 2008, 10:56:08 AM8/12/08
to ANTI GWC
It wasn't directly, they poked my behive via wikipedia ... I had to
work with a mediator type of person on the website.
On Aug 11, 9:12 am, "Cynical Pen" <cynical...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hatred that was thrown at you, how and in what form? I've always wanted to
> poke the beehive but I have no way to contact/be-contacted-by the students
> directly.
>
> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
work with a mediator type of person on the website.
On Aug 11, 9:12 am, "Cynical Pen" <cynical...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hatred that was thrown at you, how and in what form? I've always wanted to
> poke the beehive but I have no way to contact/be-contacted-by the students
> directly.
>
Cynical Pen
Aug 12, 2008, 11:11:33 AM8/12/08
to anti...@googlegroups.com
Or maybe it was Thomas Jefferson who said "God, dammit! Stop spreading lies about my alleged Christianity! I was a secularist, and a Deist! I edited the Bible for Christ's sake--to omit all references of Christ's divinity, I even described the apostles as charlatans in a letter I wrote. So where the hell do you get off bragging that I, and the other enlightened founders, were strongly Christian. We weren't!"
Oh wait, sorry. That's what he's trying to say through six feet of ground.
The Real George Wythe
Aug 12, 2008, 2:39:27 PM8/12/08
to ANTI GWC
Look, Jefferson's great and everything, but I don't understand his
elevation above the rest of the founding fathers. My personal favorite
is John Adams, because his life behavior was actually consistent with
his professed belief system (Jefferson was hypocritical on several
issues). I've never understood why Jefferson gets singled out as the
best.
On Aug 12, 8:11 am, "Cynical Pen" <cynical...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Or maybe it was Thomas Jefferson who said "God, dammit! Stop spreading lies
> about my alleged Christianity! I was a secularist, and a Deist! I edited the
> Bible for Christ's sake--to omit all references of Christ's divinity, I even
> described the apostles as charlatans in a letter I wrote. So where the hell
> do you get off bragging that I, and the other enlightened founders, were
> strongly Christian. We weren't!"
>
> Oh wait, sorry. That's what he's trying to say through six feet of ground.
>
elevation above the rest of the founding fathers. My personal favorite
is John Adams, because his life behavior was actually consistent with
his professed belief system (Jefferson was hypocritical on several
issues). I've never understood why Jefferson gets singled out as the
best.
On Aug 12, 8:11 am, "Cynical Pen" <cynical...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Or maybe it was Thomas Jefferson who said "God, dammit! Stop spreading lies
> about my alleged Christianity! I was a secularist, and a Deist! I edited the
> Bible for Christ's sake--to omit all references of Christ's divinity, I even
> described the apostles as charlatans in a letter I wrote. So where the hell
> do you get off bragging that I, and the other enlightened founders, were
> strongly Christian. We weren't!"
>
> Oh wait, sorry. That's what he's trying to say through six feet of ground.
>
Cynical Pen
Aug 13, 2008, 10:44:23 AM8/13/08
to anti...@googlegroups.com
I don't know why. But I do know the Jefferson they worship is a fictional character. I have, many times, endured a long-winded sermon about the many qualities of Thomas Jefferson, his great pride and stalwart humility, his obsession with true freedom and uplifting others, his commitment to this that and the other, but most notewortghy of all was his devout Christianity.
I honestly don't what made them grasp a hypocritical slave-owner, with dubious morals, and an outspoken deist-secularist, and put him atop the mountain of their idiot beliefs, and raise him up on a cross of their design and glory and crucify who he really was.
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