Thief Deadly Shadows Lockpicking Not Working

[Edco Haglund]

Whichmeans if the level 3 rogue has a week of time he could spend 3.5ish hours a day and unlock a Superior Lock after six days (on average) at no expense other than the initial purchase of Thieves' Tools and Repair Kit (though he needed to repair his lockpicks like 114 times total).

The level 3 rogue is, in practical terms, kept out by the level 17 lock because it's absurd for said rogue to even think "I bet I can get 21 hours going at that lock without anyone bothering to stop me." to try it out.

This is pretty much how the real world works, too. During some of the recent looting, a nearby ATM was ripped away by a pickup truck and dragged through the street. The Level 3 Rogues that made off with it didn't have 21 hours on site to deal with the ATM's Level 17 lock, but get it back to a secure location and they're likely to have enough time.

If you're willing/able to invest that kind of time, you might as well try to disassamble the lock to get its formula. Takes even longer, admittedly, but requires only a single check and leaves you with at least 45% of the lock's price worth of raw materials even on a critical fail.

I am pretty sure that this isn't working as intended and that it was meant to use the victory point system that was introduced in the GMG. We won't know until errata or a FAQ eventually hits it. Personally I think it is easier to just look at it and see "they explicitly state RAI, RAW doesn't match RAI" and make up your own ruling until then. Personally I would never rule RAW over an explicitly stated RAI.

This sounds very realistic to me. Give any half decent locksmith (and a 3rd level Rogue is certainly competent) unlimited time and they can break into anything. It's the 'unlimited time' part that makes this impractical in actual usage.

And in play, it seems perfectly balanced since it will effectively never come up. I do think it is fair to consider that characters will generally be less competent than a trained individual is in the present day. Not only are we working with relatively static technologies that have stayed the same for 50-90 years, but given the pricing of locks in golarion people who aren't super wealthy or already capable thieves generally won't be able to practice like we can (especially in the advent of printing presses and more importantly the internet).Assuming similar level or greater of complexity, given the astronomical costs and bespoke construction (I would expect that locks costing hundreds or thousands of gp are similar levels of artifice).

Then again people can pick locks with a dagger ;) so might be best to just chalk it up to "is game" like bulk. I don't know if any of my players would be happy if their newly purchased 200gp lock was pickable by near anyone with trained.

This makes a lot of incorrect assumptions about Golarion's tech base and educational level. The printing press exists in Goalrion, and is in decently common use. In a related note, near universal literacy is absolutely a thing, as are schoolhouses even in small villages in Taldor. Nor have technologies necessarily remained static, they've certainly remained more so than in our own world, but some of that is that magic gets innovated rather than technology per se.

Oh yeah, those are expensive and tricky to make, I'm sure.The Gleeful Grognard wrote:Then again people can pick locks with a dagger ;) so might be best to just chalk it up to "is game" like bulk. I don't know if any of my players would be happy if their newly purchased 200gp lock was pickable by near anyone with trained. If they have at least two days uninterrupted to pick it with no interruptions? That's probably more time and effort than it takes to disassemble the door one way or another. AUC.register('auc_MessageboardPostRowDisplay'); AjaxBusy.register('masked', 'busy', 'auc_MessageboardPostRowDisplay', null, null) Captain Morgan Jul 23, 2020, 08:11 am Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber Also, do the calculations in the OP assume the successes carry over between critical failures? The rules don't really spell this out, but I always assumed breaking your picks meant needing to start over. I'm assuming the superior lock has 6 tumblers that need to be aligned all at once.

For sure, a metal lockbox with an adamantine good quality lock though? (Amusingly I have two players in another game who are constantly setting up theft deterrents mainly for each other, but it has saved them from some of their "friends" they allow into the house)As a house rule I give the DC adjustments of easy, very easy, incredibly easy for time spent and then use the victory point rule.

This tends to accomplish the same goal but without making it an auto succeed or having me calculate odds ;).

But when do they get that training? If these practice locks don't exist and a character isn't required to buy a more expensive lock to "practice" with before moving up proficiency then where does this ability eventually derive from? AUC.register('auc_MessageboardPostRowDisplay'); AjaxBusy.register('masked', 'busy', 'auc_MessageboardPostRowDisplay', null, null) Castilliano Jul 23, 2020, 09:25 am Talonhawke wrote: The Gleeful Grognard wrote:

We were pretty advanced even back then and locksmiths had training locks as well as access to knowledge regarding the inner workings on a regular basis.

Not that I am saying this knowledge doesn't exist in golarion, just that I am not entirely sold that a trained level 2 rogue would be of a level of skill that they can just crack multi hundred gold coin locks just with time. Given how the skill activity is written it is certainly not the intent.

But when do they get that training? If these practice locks don't exist and a character isn't required to buy a more expensive lock to "practice" with before moving up proficiency then where does this ability eventually derive from? Further, why would one think master saboteurs and spies wouldn't have had training locks IRL much less in campaign worlds with highly sophisticated and established criminal organizations?

And? Why wouldn't Golarion work the same in this regard?The Gleeful Grognard wrote:Not that I am saying this knowledge doesn't exist in golarion, just that I am not entirely sold that a trained level 2 rogue would be of a level of skill that they can just crack multi hundred gold coin locks just with time. Given how the skill activity is written it is certainly not the intent.Isn't it? It's the intent that they not be able to do it in the middle of an adventure. I'm not at all clear that it follows that they can't do it when spending downtime.The Gleeful Grognard wrote:For sure, a metal lockbox with an adamantine good quality lock though? (Amusingly I have two players in another game who are constantly setting up theft deterrents mainly for each other, but it has saved them from some of their "friends" they allow into the house) Sure. Even the best lock is pick-able given unlimited time and the right skill set. I see no reason for that to be different in Golarion. Doing this is also super specialized work requiring either a lot of broken picks or a +10 in Crafting as well as +11 Thievery (with anything less than +10, you're gonna crit fail and destroy your tools multiple times during this process if you try and repair them).

This so much AUC.register('auc_MessageboardPostRowDisplay'); AjaxBusy.register('masked', 'busy', 'auc_MessageboardPostRowDisplay', null, null) The Gleeful Grognard Jul 23, 2020, 01:23 pm Deadmanwalking wrote:Isn't it? It's the intent that they not be able to do it in the middle of an adventure. I'm not at all clear that it follows that they can't do it when spending downtime."Locks of higher qualities might require multiple successes to unlock, since otherwise even an unskilled burglar could easily crack the lock by attempting the check until they rolled a natural 20."

I suppose that we differ in expectations regarding lockpicking. I personally don't believe that I would be able to pick a lock with false gates, glass pins and bearings just by spending time on it without first having seen it taken apart or knowing how it works to some degree. Disc detainers too.

By Torag's Anvil how people pick locks in long dead ancient civilizations they end up in then? Does pick lock not work in your games if the players encounter a lock type they can't verify they've seen before?Sorry Chuck I know this has a DC 25 listed right here but I'm sure you dwarf has never been to Germany before so this lock isn't something you can actually pick. Better have Susan's Fighter smash it.

Technically you are correct you can keep repairing your picks. practically speaking you are likely time limited before somebody notices you playing around with your picks. If you basically have infinite time and the lock is not literally impossible for you to pick then yes you eventually will open it.

One thing to note though is in pathfinder 2e a 20 is not an automatic success. It raises your level of success by one step. So if you are a low level rogue working on some high level high quality lock it is very likely that no matter how long you have you simply won't succeed. If you can't roll high enough with mods to get at least a failure a nat 20 does not help.

By Torag's Anvil how people pick locks in long dead ancient civilizations they end up in then? Does pick lock not work in your games if the players encounter a lock type they can't verify they've seen before?

Sorry Chuck I know this has a DC 25 listed right here but I'm sure you dwarf has never been to Germany before so this lock isn't something you can actually pick. Better have Susan's Fighter smash it. Because as times goes on they get better and can succeed on that 25dc through practice and gaining a better knowledge of locks. A npc locksmith or thief will gradually encounter more and more complex locks overcoming them, taking them apart or training with them until they have the requisite tools and skills to pick the more complex locks.So an expert locksmith npc might be level 2 but treated as level 6 like the surgeon due to their time and experience.

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