Action or property

[Dmitriy Shabanov]

Hello,

Here some examples to discuss:

the desk (black) (big). the black color.

******************************************

is it action?

desk paint red relationship record or should it be paint desk red, because of lisp-line style (polish style) ???

what answer expected?

the desk (red) (big). (new object, replace old one, but keep relationships that do not intersect with relationships at parameters of reference)

******************************************

is it property?

desk color red or desk red

what answer expected?

the desk red?

******************************************

At present time animotron will give next answers:

desk color red => desk black color  (should be desk (color red) (big), or desk (color red) (big) if the red color)

desk red => desk black color (should be desk (red) (big))

This is serialization issue only, and can be fixed, but how?

--
Dmitriy Shabanov

[Ferenc]

This is the issue of how to have object, property and relation as a
three D representation?
1. Object is accepted as one and existing in reality and as to consist
of properties and relations, both of which are abstractions and do not
exist without an object.
So an object (desk) in one relation that determines its property color
would have a 2D representation of the object
1) the object on x axis and colour on the y axis
In an other relation that measures the size of the object, the
representation will be the same form, but
2) it will be a different (second) relation which is behind the first
plane of relations filing one behind the other, and it will have size
as a property on the y axis again
(Note all these representations have a mental operation as antecedent
that result in such a statement or findings), but I am not going to
bring in that issue here.
Now a property like size or colour is an abstraction, but may be
folded to be seen as an (abstract) object with properties
so you have the object colour and the property yellow or size and the
property big similarly to what you have had before

Action is a relation, and most of the relations are measurement
actions resulting in some finding that is stated as an object has some
property, etc.

On Dec 12, 4:51 pm, Dmitriy Shabanov <shaban...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Here some examples to discuss:
>

> *the desk (black) (big). the black color.*
>
> ******************************************
> is it action?
>
> *desk paint red* relationship record or should it be *paint desk red*,

> because of lisp-line style (polish style) ???
>
> what answer expected?
>

> *the desk (red) (big). *(new object, replace old one, but keep

> relationships that do not intersect with relationships at parameters of
> reference)
>
> ******************************************
> is it property?
>

> *desk color red* or desk red
>
> what answer expected?
>
> *the desk red*?

>
> ******************************************
> At present time animotron will give next answers:
>

> *desk color red => **desk black color * (should be* desk (color red) (big)*,
> or *desk (color red) (big)* if *the red color*)
> *desk red* => *desk* *black color *(should be* desk (red) (big)*) * **
> *

[Ferenc]

Further clarification to this issue (your question and my answer) os
that Relation is the time line, a continuous thread where data on
objetc like its properties are 1) expanded 2) updated as reality
check and experience dictate

[Dmitriy Shabanov]

Here action also exist: paint

the desk black. the black color. the red color. - that are experience objects: desk, black, red as sensor information connected to words, and color as result of generalization process. Also this is current (or better to past/last sensor information)

paint desk red - current recognition that should generate future prediction after evaluation, so what it should be?

Property example:

the desk black. the black color.

and current sensory information is desk big. What prediction should be after evaluation?

On Mon, Dec 12, 2011 at 9:58 PM, Ferenc <genez...@googlemail.com> wrote:

This is the issue of how to have object, property and relation as a
three D representation?
1. Object is accepted as one and existing in reality and as to consist
of properties and relations, both of which are abstractions and do not
exist without an object.
So an object (desk) in one relation that determines its property color
would have a 2D representation of the object
1) the object on x axis and colour on the y axis
In an other relation that measures the size of the object, the
representation will be the same form, but
2) it will be a different (second) relation which is behind the first
plane of relations filing one behind the other, and it will have size
as a property on the y axis again
(Note all these representations have a mental operation as antecedent
that result in such a statement or findings), but I am not going to
bring in that issue here.
Now  a property like size or colour is an abstraction, but may be
folded to be seen as an (abstract) object with properties
so you have the object colour and the property yellow or size and the
property big similarly to what you have had before

Action is a relation, and most of the relations are measurement
actions resulting in some finding that is stated as an object has some
property, etc.

--

Dmitriy Shabanov

[Ferenc]

In other words NO MESSING AROUND you need to make it clear if it is a
question or a statement and who says that, THE RELATION to the object
and the property MUST BE MADE EXPLICIT - IT IS A DIALOGUE WITH LOGIC
and not PR on war and peace

On Dec 12, 5:58 pm, Ferenc <genezis...@googlemail.com> wrote:

[inference]

Here action also exist: paint

the desk black. the black color. the red color. - that are experience objects: desk, black, red as sensor information connected to words, and color as result of generalization process. Also this is current (or better to past/last sensor information)

paint desk red - current recognition that should generate future prediction after evaluation, so what it should be?

 

Desk is red now

an action or a relaation means a change in the current state (property) of the object

now the action paint is not specific enough. its an imperatibe, a statement, a question? what is the person adn the tense?

It makies no sense to speak pidgin English and  play a guessing game

Property example:

the desk black. the black color.

and current sensory information is desk big. What prediction should be after evaluation?

The desk is black and big - as the properties here may be additive

[Dmitriy Shabanov]

yes, logic in background to make one token, but rules allow several transformation and world is stochastic & continuous. So, animotron can predict several possible futures (tokens). Sensor world around (alya question or dialog) should help to reduce number of tokens in bag (internal focus).

On Mon, Dec 12, 2011 at 10:17 PM, Ferenc <genez...@googlemail.com> wrote:

In other words NO MESSING AROUND you need to make it clear if it is a
question or a statement and who says that, THE RELATION to the object
and the property MUST BE MADE EXPLICIT - IT IS A DIALOGUE WITH LOGIC
and not PR on war and peace

--
Dmitriy Shabanov

[inference]

The idea is to be up todat about the knowledge of the system. So when you have an update trabsation, a new realtion, you update the relevant objects. Id another proeprty is found out, then you know nore abotu that obejct and should be capable of saying so

----- Original Message -----

From: Dmitriy Shabanov

To: anim...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 6:15 PM

Subject: Re: [animotron] Re: Action or property

[inference]

ok, no problem

----- Original Message -----

From: Dmitriy Shabanov

To: anim...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 6:25 PM

Subject: Re: [animotron] Re: Action or property

[Dmitriy Shabanov]

Yes, agree on "saying so", but it can be with "not sure" or "didn't see that" & etc.

To allow this, simple add another topology/dimension into animo graph. And it can "be sure" or "need to check".

On Mon, Dec 12, 2011 at 10:28 PM, inference <f.ko...@btinternet.com> wrote:

The idea is to be up todat about the knowledge of the system. So when you have an update trabsation, a new realtion, you update the relevant objects. Id another proeprty is found out, then you know nore abotu that obejct and should be capable of saying so

--

Dmitriy Shabanov

[Evgeny Gazdovsky]

2011/12/12 Dmitriy Shabanov <shab...@gmail.com>:

> Hello,
>
> Here some examples to discuss:
>
> the desk (black) (big). the black color.
>
> ******************************************
> is it action?

I see her four actions.
First three:
"color" (subject and object are same - "black");
"black" and "big" (subject and object are same too - "desk").
And one phantom action "color" (subject is "desk" and object is "black").

--
Evgeny

[inference]

sure yur relation to rerality and the way you word your knowledge also have a scale

----- Original Message -----

From: Dmitriy Shabanov

To: anim...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 6:36 PM

Subject: Re: [animotron] Re: Action or property

[inference]

no comment
we have difference in indersatnding action or its context

----- Original Message -----
From: "Evgeny Gazdovsky" <gazd...@gmail.com>
To: <anim...@googlegroups.com>

[Evgeny Gazdovsky]

>> 2011/12/12 Dmitriy Shabanov <shab...@gmail.com>:
>>>
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> Here some examples to discuss:
>>>
>>> the desk (black) (big). the black color.
>>>
>>> ******************************************
>>> is it action?
>>
>>
>> I see her four actions.
>> First three:
>> "color" (subject and object are same - "black");
>> "black" and  "big" (subject and object are same too - "desk").
>> And one phantom action "color" (subject is "desk" and object is "black").
>>

Sorry, I'm mistaking

[Dmitriy Shabanov]

On Mon, Dec 12, 2011 at 10:43 PM, Evgeny Gazdovsky <gazd...@gmail.com> wrote:

2011/12/12 Dmitriy Shabanov <shab...@gmail.com>:

> Hello,
>
> Here some examples to discuss:
>
> the desk (black) (big). the black color.
>
> ******************************************
> is it action?

I see her four actions.
First three:
"color" (subject and object are same - "black");

this is more relation, then action, because action do change something, but relation do not.

 

"black" and  "big" (subject and object are same too - "desk").
And one phantom action "color" (subject is "desk" and object is "black").

--

Dmitriy Shabanov

[inference]

>> the desk (black) (big). the black color.

"color" (subject and object are same - "black");
> "black" and "big" (subject and object are same too - "desk").

In what language and what syntax?

----- Original Message -----
From: "Evgeny Gazdovsky" <gazd...@gmail.com>
To: <anim...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 6:43 PM
Subject: Re: [animotron] Action or property