Petition - Information about upcoming SDKs!

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plusminus

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Jun 28, 2008, 5:57:44 AM6/28/08
to Android Discuss
Hello everyone,

I'm starting this petition, to express my personal frustration about
the release cycles and the information policy of the Android SDK.
Before m5 we were waiting about 2 months, now we are waiting almost 4
months!
Partially the SDK is buggy (i.e.: the MediaPlayer) and features like
built-in Geocoding are not working.

In order not to lose many highly encouraged developers, I think its
time to release some news about the development process of the SDK.
Maybe let us know why we have to live with these long cycles.

As you maybe know, I am one of the biggest fans of Android, putting a
lot of work into the community through my forum. But unfortunately
disappointment is being born in the last weeks :(
(Especially thinking of recently existing OpenMoko-Phones and the new
iPhone SDK).

In my personal opinion it is not the right choice to keep developers
in the dark. We, the developers, are the absolute base of success to
the whole Android platform. The presentation with GoogleIO was a good
first step but for me it was nto enough.

Therefore I am 'signing' this 'petition', hoping to receive
information/update on the Android SDK.

(+1) plusminus

Regards, plusminus
http://anddev.org
# Worlds largest Android Development Community / Tutorials

PS: I didn't want to depreciate the work of the Android Dev Team or
anyone else.

Muthu Ramadoss

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Jun 28, 2008, 10:01:14 AM6/28/08
to android...@googlegroups.com
+1 for a public SDK release.
--
take care,
Muthu Ramadoss.

http://cookingcapsules.com - nourish your droid.
http://mobeegal.in - find stuff closer.

Shane Isbell

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Jun 28, 2008, 10:07:35 AM6/28/08
to Android Discuss
+1
> http://cookingcapsules.com- nourish your droid.http://mobeegal.in- find stuff closer.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Hong

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Jun 28, 2008, 1:30:42 PM6/28/08
to android...@googlegroups.com
+1

BTW, i'm not really tied to only Android platform.  iPhone, Windows Mobile, Symbian, OpenMoko are all viable choices.  As for mobile development, it's never a good direction to only develop for one specific platform, unless it's for a specific reason :)

I'm afraid (at the same time excited) that by the time the next Android SDK is released (close to EOY 2008 I guess), many developers here have already released software on the iPhone platform, a platform with 20+ million users versus ZERO user install base for Android.  It's not a hard decision to make after all.  Hopefully someone wakes up sooner than later.

HOng

hitsu_g

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Jun 28, 2008, 7:13:29 AM6/28/08
to Android Discuss
(+1)
I am holding out hope for Android but my development efforts are
currently focused elsewhere and will be until Google makes some
significant positive moves.

On Jun 28, 6:57 pm, plusminus <stoeps...@gmx.de> wrote:
> Hello everyone,
>
> I'm starting this petition, to express my personal frustration about
> the release cycles and the information policy of the Android SDK.
> Before m5 we were waiting about 2 months, now we are waiting almost 4
> months!
> Partially the SDK is buggy (i.e.: the MediaPlayer) and features like
> built-in Geocoding are not working.
>
> In order not to lose many highly encouraged developers, I think its
> time to release some news about the development process of the SDK.
> Maybe let us know why we have to live with these long cycles.
>
> As you maybe know, I am one of the biggest fans of Android, putting a
> lot of work into the community through my forum. But unfortunately
> disappointment is being born in the last weeks :(
> (Especially thinking of recently existing OpenMoko-Phones and the new
> iPhone SDK).
>
> In my personal opinion it is not the right choice to keep developers
> in the dark. We, the developers, are the absolute base of success to
> the whole Android platform. The presentation with GoogleIO was a good
> first step but for me it was nto enough.
>
> Therefore I am 'signing' this 'petition', hoping to receive
> information/update on the Android SDK.
>
> (+1) plusminus
>
> Regards, plusminushttp://anddev.org

efon...@gmail.com

unread,
Jun 28, 2008, 4:36:43 PM6/28/08
to Android Discuss
(+-),... (+1)
... I'm hoping they are building and umbilical cord to an agent
running web entity for each phone. That is, of course, the obvious
way to do it but not necessarily the easiest. I am presuming that
they are doing work that I want to build off of and would rather have
them do. Google has hired each of their employees stating that they
are a 'dog company.' If they get catty with Android developers they
violate employee contracts with each and every one of their employees.
A part of the benefits of working for a particular employer is the
good will bestowed by the population at large on people serving
community by working for that employer. If they are now greeted by
cold stares and shuttered doorways whenever they walk into a room for
the way they have treated the android development community, then that
real benefit is gone.

The other companies in the OHA (...no way are They going to make an
open foot phone!) are not bound by that contractual obligation.
Google needs to make it a bit more clear to their partners that they
have a prior contractual obligation to each and every employee to
treat the android development community right.

Trusting that Google is still a dog company and they will honor the
contracts made with employees at time of hire, I think they are
working to make the wait on the SDK worth it.

Folks here are doing their part in good faith. I'm making a
significant public communication effort to head off frivolous patents
so folks can work unfettered to serve ordinary people. I am also
writing code at the algorithm/UI level to do what needs to be done,
leaving the interface work for Google in their next SDK, or for people
with existing dexterity there.

As long as Google is making prior contractual obligations clear to
their new partners,...

I will sign the petition to be an audience for Google as they show a
little backbone.



On Jun 28, 4:57 am, plusminus <stoeps...@gmx.de> wrote:
> Hello everyone,
>
> I'm starting this petition, to express my personal frustration about
> the release cycles and the information policy of the Android SDK.
> Before m5 we were waiting about 2 months, now we are waiting almost 4
> months!
> Partially the SDK is buggy (i.e.: the MediaPlayer) and features like
> built-in Geocoding are not working.
>
> In order not to lose many highly encouraged developers, I think its
> time to release some news about the development process of the SDK.
> Maybe let us know why we have to live with these long cycles.
>
> As you maybe know, I am one of the biggest fans of Android, putting a
> lot of work into the community through my forum. But unfortunately
> disappointment is being born in the last weeks :(
> (Especially thinking of recently existing OpenMoko-Phones and the new
> iPhone SDK).
>
> In my personal opinion it is not the right choice to keep developers
> in the dark. We, the developers, are the absolute base of success to
> the whole Android platform. The presentation with GoogleIO was a good
> first step but for me it was nto enough.
>
> Therefore I am 'signing' this 'petition', hoping to receive
> information/update on the Android SDK.
>
> (+1) plusminus
>
> Regards, plusminushttp://anddev.org

j

unread,
Jun 29, 2008, 12:37:35 AM6/29/08
to Android Discuss
(+1)

jalopy

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Jun 29, 2008, 3:32:52 AM6/29/08
to Android Discuss
( +1 )

I believe many developers are losing interest in Android after ADC I.
I am currently having a good time developing applications for the
iPhone
and iPod Touch.

Android is still a superior platform but lack of update from Google
really
makes many of the developers feeling extremely frustrated.



On Jun 28, 2:57 am, plusminus <stoeps...@gmx.de> wrote:
> Hello everyone,
>
> I'm starting this petition, to express my personal frustration about
> the release cycles and the information policy of the Android SDK.
> Before m5 we were waiting about 2 months, now we are waiting almost 4
> months!
> Partially the SDK is buggy (i.e.: the MediaPlayer) and features like
> built-in Geocoding are not working.
>
> In order not to lose many highly encouraged developers, I think its
> time to release some news about the development process of the SDK.
> Maybe let us know why we have to live with these long cycles.
>
> As you maybe know, I am one of the biggest fans of Android, putting a
> lot of work into the community through my forum. But unfortunately
> disappointment is being born in the last weeks :(
> (Especially thinking of recently existing OpenMoko-Phones and the new
> iPhone SDK).
>
> In my personal opinion it is not the right choice to keep developers
> in the dark. We, the developers, are the absolute base of success to
> the whole Android platform. The presentation with GoogleIO was a good
> first step but for me it was nto enough.
>
> Therefore I am 'signing' this 'petition', hoping to receive
> information/update on the Android SDK.
>
> (+1) plusminus
>
> Regards, plusminushttp://anddev.org

thex...@netzero.net

unread,
Jun 29, 2008, 3:54:55 AM6/29/08
to android...@googlegroups.com
+1
I am not a developer but I have been keeping track of this and have seen that it is causing some major problems for the developers which could kill Android and I really do not want to see that happen.

____________________________________________________________
Recharge and relax. Click for great vacation ideas.
http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL2241/fc/Ioyw6i4uHYu6EyayYhI7l7h7uFXo5ZRVevPKDAuw3viHqoWiZ3GVad/

fred lin

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Jun 29, 2008, 8:10:37 AM6/29/08
to Android Discuss
+1

--
fred

george_c

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Jun 29, 2008, 1:43:03 PM6/29/08
to android...@googlegroups.com
+1   
Would like to see from winners if they support this call too?

I don't understand at times Google's way of thinking.

- Google has announced the Android platform.
- Then Google restricts access to a community that is there for this potentially wonderful open platform to sustain its growth.
- that itself(big G) doesn't seem like internally you have what it takes to sustain this platform due to slow releases & updates, when the community is at its doorstep!!

*knock, knock!!*


truly hope this wont be anything like ADC 1, that IMHO was a disaster!

George






On Sun, Jun 29, 2008 at 3:10 PM, fred lin <gas...@gmail.com> wrote:

+1

--
fred



Zach Hobbs

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Jun 29, 2008, 4:32:12 PM6/29/08
to android...@googlegroups.com
+1, though I think there's gotta be one coming soon...I don't have any inside
information, just seems like there is no reason they wouldn't be working on
getting a new public sdk out.

--

Zach Hobbs
HelloAndroid.com
Android OS news, tutorials, downloads

Lucas Abrão

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Jun 29, 2008, 9:59:04 PM6/29/08
to android...@googlegroups.com
it's weird the way that google is coming into this mobile marketing and mobile computing world... I think that how can I develop on a platform that hasnt even a cell phone implementing and they're launching lots of upgrades and newer sdk's??? Im not an emulator programmer! i'd rather to be investing on some other concrete platforms and just be apart of what is going on with these kind of promises like "android"...

Nickname

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Jun 29, 2008, 7:52:56 PM6/29/08
to Android Discuss
+1

Looking forward to a less-frustrating SDK with more precisely glued
Eclipse-Emulator interaction!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Randy Power

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Jun 29, 2008, 10:12:44 PM6/29/08
to Android Discuss
+1 I appreciate the Android Dev Team, but am losing some Android
steam.


On Jun 28, 4:57 am, plusminus <stoeps...@gmx.de> wrote:
> Hello everyone,
>
> I'm starting this petition, to express my personal frustration about
> the release cycles and the information policy of the Android SDK.
> Before m5 we were waiting about 2 months, now we are waiting almost 4
> months!
> Partially the SDK is buggy (i.e.: the MediaPlayer) and features like
> built-in Geocoding are not working.
>
> In order not to lose many highly encouraged developers, I think its
> time to release some news about the development process of the SDK.
> Maybe let us know why we have to live with these long cycles.
>
> As you maybe know, I am one of the biggest fans of Android, putting a
> lot of work into the community through my forum. But unfortunately
> disappointment is being born in the last weeks :(
> (Especially thinking of recently existing OpenMoko-Phones and the new
> iPhone SDK).
>
> In my personal opinion it is not the right choice to keep developers
> in the dark. We, the developers, are the absolute base of success to
> the whole Android platform. The presentation with GoogleIO was a good
> first step but for me it was nto enough.
>
> Therefore I am 'signing' this 'petition', hoping to receive
> information/update on the Android SDK.
>
> (+1) plusminus
>
> Regards, plusminushttp://anddev.org

Luc1an

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Jun 29, 2008, 5:48:00 PM6/29/08
to Android Discuss

Nickname

unread,
Jun 29, 2008, 9:28:20 PM6/29/08
to Android Discuss
+1,

Here is one of the broken ASDK pieces that i am looking forward for
"more precisely glue".

When both ddms and emulator are running on the same host, how can this
happen?????? There are obviously either timing issue or other
misdesign in some ASDK component.

[2008-06-29 18:22:58 - ddms] Got reply 'FAIL', diag='no device'
[2008-06-29 18:23:03 - ddms] execute: running ls -l /
[2008-06-29 18:23:03 - ddms] Got reply 'FAIL', diag='no device'
[2008-06-29 18:23:08 - ddms] execute: running ls -l /
[2008-06-29 18:23:08 - ddms] Got reply 'FAIL', diag='no device'
[2008-06-29 18:23:13 - ddms] execute: running ls -l /
[2008-06-29 18:23:13 - ddms] Got reply 'FAIL', diag='no device'
[2008-06-29 18:23:18 - ddms] execute: running ls -l /
[2008-06-29 18:23:18 - ddms] Got reply 'FAIL', diag='no device'
[2008-06-29 18:23:23 - ddms] execute: running ls -l /
[2008-06-29 18:23:23 - ddms] Got reply 'FAIL', diag='no device'
[2008-06-29 18:23:28 - ddms] execute: running ls -l /
[2008-06-29 18:23:28 - ddms] Got reply 'FAIL', diag='no device'


On Jun 29, 12:32 pm, Zach Hobbs <ho...@helloandroid.com> wrote:

pmilosev

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Jun 30, 2008, 3:34:41 AM6/30/08
to Android Discuss
+ inf

this SDK is so buggy that we desperately need an update
BTW ... will there be any multi-touch support ?
Multi-touch might be hard to emulate but is way more cooler to have
pinching and starching as events.

regards

rezar

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Jul 1, 2008, 9:14:10 AM7/1/08
to Android Discuss
+2

Thomas Modeneis

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Jul 1, 2008, 9:20:57 AM7/1/08
to android...@googlegroups.com
+1
--
Sun Certified Programmer for Java Platform, SE 5.0 – 310-055.

guna...@gmail.com

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Jul 2, 2008, 2:16:17 AM7/2/08
to Android Discuss
+1..
Wants new sdk without bugs as soon as possible...
Many functionalities missing and many mock class only available..
Regards,
Guna.

JP

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Jul 2, 2008, 10:12:20 AM7/2/08
to Android Discuss
+1
I haven't had such a rough experience on the technical side and
reached the level of full app's end-to-end months ago. We've all built
our stuff at risk, but I have had it for now.
I am not keen to find out I've painted myself into a corner over the
summer when an SDK update finally comes out. I guess I'll hang out at
the beach more. Summer of no code...
JP

Andrew Lewis

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Jul 3, 2008, 5:38:44 PM7/3/08
to Android Discuss
+1 for a roadmap of future SDK releases

On Jun 28, 3:57 am, plusminus <stoeps...@gmx.de> wrote:
> Hello everyone,
>
> I'm starting this petition, to express my personal frustration about
> the release cycles and the information policy of the Android SDK.
> Before m5 we were waiting about 2 months, now we are waiting almost 4
> months!
> Partially the SDK is buggy (i.e.: the MediaPlayer) and features like
> built-in Geocoding are not working.
>
> In order not to lose many highly encouraged developers, I think its
> time to release some news about the development process of the SDK.
> Maybe let us know why we have to live with these long cycles.
>
> As you maybe know, I am one of the biggest fans of Android, putting a
> lot of work into the community through my forum. But unfortunately
> disappointment is being born in the last weeks :(
> (Especially thinking of recently existing OpenMoko-Phones and the new
> iPhone SDK).
>
> In my personal opinion it is not the right choice to keep developers
> in the dark. We, the developers, are the absolute base of success to
> the whole Android platform. The presentation with GoogleIO was a good
> first step but for me it was nto enough.
>
> Therefore I am 'signing' this 'petition', hoping to receive
> information/update on the Android SDK.
>
> (+1) plusminus
>
> Regards, plusminushttp://anddev.org

just-some-guy

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Jul 11, 2008, 4:42:25 AM7/11/08
to Android Discuss
(+1)

i lost patience long ago. will keep coding/waiting untill the end of
july. then ill eigther switch to the iphone (if sells are good) or
windows mobile. i see absolutely no use in working with a barely
finished SDK on an emulator without a piece of hardware in my hand.
MOBILE phone development is no fun if you cant test it MOBILE.

JBQ

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Jul 11, 2008, 12:16:16 PM7/11/08
to Android Discuss
just-some-guy: is this a way of saying that we (Google Android team)
should continue to focus on making sure that devices can be available
as quickly as we possibly can?

JBQ (Android Engineer).

On Jul 11, 1:42 am, just-some-guy <google-analytics....@daloo.de>
wrote:

JP

unread,
Jul 11, 2008, 2:28:55 PM7/11/08
to Android Discuss
It is a way of saying not to cut off the community at large. It has
not been received well that SDK updates are available to only few
under NDA, selected by the Challenge, without letting anybody know.
This could have been explained and accepted without much fuss.
An hour per day worth of effort (my estimate) is all it would take to
keep the community informed - and even if things cannot be shared with
the public at a certain point, the bare minimum that we (the developer
community) could reasonably expect is to at least be kept in the loop
on the superficial level.
Right now the developer community seems to fall apart. This post-
Challenge period left an impression with many that we're considered
Google roadkill. All the way through spring this year we accepted to
build our apps at-risk (no established platform). Fine, but we did not
expect getting dropped like a hot potato. This has pushed me over
anyways. Summer of no code here.
It's a bummer really - a browse through Apple's brand new app store
leaves me largely unimpressed.
JP
> > MOBILE phone development is no fun if you cant test it MOBILE.- Hide quoted text -

efon...@gmail.com

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Jul 11, 2008, 11:34:20 PM7/11/08
to Android Discuss
Isn't it Google policy that you learn stuff by getting it in people's
hands as quickly as possible?

This developer's concern is that in the rush Google makes a bad deal
with the carrier that results in an undifferentiated product (with
little access to network location information and a cumbersome
connection to the cloud).

Dear Google Android Team,
Please act in a way that supports the business folks in their
negotiations with carriers to get a differentiated product to
customers. A product that allows ordinary people to bring new network
and location benefits to other ordinary people.

JP

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Jul 12, 2008, 12:43:40 AM7/12/08
to Android Discuss

On Jul 11, 8:34 pm, "efont...@gmail.com" <efont...@gmail.com> wrote:
> that in the rush Google makes a bad deal
> with the carrier that results in an undifferentiated product (with
> little access to network location information).
Exactly my concern, too. Like reading my mind. Before adding to this
however I'd like to say thanks to JBQ for checking in.

Back on top topic though; if carriers create derivate work from
Android to brand their devices, it's still going to be an Android
phone, right? And at least under the current license there's nothing
that Google can do to prevent this from happening. Let's have a look
at the tools that hang up there at the torture chamber wall. What
third-party apps might be denied of; what comes to mind within 10
seconds:
- access to contacts, messaging and phone controls
- location device (GPS) access
- maps through MapView (hope the TeleAtlas deal will prevent that (but
again we're hoping here))
Now why's that? Easy answer - all it takes is Wayfinder to come in,
ink an exclusive deal with carrier, charge the usual $129 and kick
back part of the revenue to the carrier. Independent developer: Out.
Consumers care? Unlikely, in particular here in the US; unless perhaps
there's a change in attitudes given the current economic downturn with
people looking for actual value products when they shell out hundreds
of dollars... unlikely though.

So there's an awful lot of things that can go wrong and it doesn't
even cover the usual annoyances like SIM locks, tethering locks (see
iPhone 3G) etc.

So we won't know *anything* until later this year, it seems? That's
why communications are so important.

JBQ

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Jul 12, 2008, 9:59:22 AM7/12/08
to Android Discuss
I'm going to get into trouble for this post...

I was a bit facetious in my previous post, I'm sorry about that, I
shouldn't have been playing with people's feelings like that, that was
somewhat inappropriate.

There is some truth however in saying that we (the Google Android
team) are very much focusing on playing our part in getting an Android
device on the shelves as soon as we possibly can, and that focus comes
at the expense of other tasks, like getting an SDK out. Since I'm
talking about that, I'll also point out that there's a large lag
between delivery of the final software to a manufacturer and
commercial availability of device with that software: there's a phase
of approvals, acceptance and certification, followed by manufacturing,
shipping and distribution, which take a fair amount of time. That
period of time is quite suitable for tasks like getting an SDK ready.
I've been personally involved in shipping cell phone software for
years, in a way that included an SDK, and invariably we'd build the
SDK after the final embedded software was released (so that we could
get as close a match as possible) and yet the SDK would be ready well
in advance of the availability of devices.

There've been quite a few long threads recently in various groups
(this thread, along with one in android-developers and one in android-
internals) around the issue of communication from Google. I'm sure
that many of the people who participated in those threads get the
feeling that their comments fell on deaf ears, whereas in fact that's
not true. Quite a few members of the Google Android team read those
groups (and we also read a number of community web sites), and (quite
a bit by definition) we are the ones who do care about the community.
Many of us have played roles in various developer communities in the
past, very often on both sides of the fence, and in more ways that one
we understand the situation that the developer community is in right
now and we share the pain. So, while those posts aren't falling on
deaf ears, they're typically falling in the wide-open ears of people
whose hands are tied and whose mouths are gagged, and the frustration
that such posts create in the Android team might in fact be larger
than the relief that gets created in the community.

I will say however, from personal experience being a third-party
developer for a certain platform before it shipped to customers, and
having gone through 5 major "developer" releases and 2 "preview"
releases of that platform, that getting many releases of a framework
that is undergoing active development before its first release is a
frustrating experience in itself. I remember investing a lot of energy
writing code around a certain feature that appeared in one of the
developer releases, only to see that feature disappear in a later
release. And of course that says nothing about the frustration of
porting my code from one release to the next in order to benefit from
certain bug fixes, only to find after a lot of porting effort that
bugs introduced in the newer release got in my ways more than the ones
I had ran into in the previous release. Looking back, I wish that I
had focused more on my system's architecture and on the core of my
code (which were the valuable parts), and less on chasing one SDK
after the other.

Back to the question, and to keep things simple, we've announced that
"the entire platform will be made available under the very liberal,
developer-friendly Apache v2 open-source license" (sorry I had to
quote that, I really have to be very careful about what I say here).
As I understand (but I am not a lawyer), the Apache License, Version
2.0 grants certain rights related to copyright and patents, but
explicitly does not grant permissions in the trademark area. So, there
is some openness about what people will be allowed to do with the
platform as it gets released, but not necessary about how they can
call the result. Once again, I am not a lawyer, and that is obviously
not legal advice.

Ultimately, the market forces will prevail. This is a complex
ecosystem, though, with consumers, network operators, and third-party
developers playing a role (and I'm not even putting software providers
and device manufacturers in the list). The way I see it, if there are
enough excellent third-party applications, consumers will be willing
to pay more money for devices that can run those applications, and
network operators will have an incentive to allow those applications
to run. I said earlier that I'm not a lawyer, and I'll say here that
I'm not an economist either, and what I just wrote about the market it
very primitive and probably very naive too.

I'm afraid that none of all that I just wrote brings any closure in
terms of communication. That's all because it's not my role to
communicate the "big picture" answers that people would like to hear.
The Google Android people who read the groups hear you, we understand
your pain, we communicate it back up to our management, we're not
happy about the situation either, we'd love more openness too. And,
just like anybody else, we don't like to read implications that we're
lazy, or that we're liars, or that we don't care about you, or any of
the other nasty things that have been written or implied about us,
because none of that it true.

JBQ (Android Engineer)

Muthu Ramadoss

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Jul 12, 2008, 10:26:05 AM7/12/08
to android...@googlegroups.com
JBQ,

We hear you. Thanks for taking your time and communicating with the android developer community. This I hope is the first step in bridging the gap that was created between Google and the Android development community after the public SDK stopped coming.

Hats off. Keep posting.

Thanks.
--
take care,
Muthu Ramadoss.

http://cookingcapsules.com - nourish your droid.
http://mobeegal.in - find stuff closer.

Mark Murphy

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Jul 12, 2008, 11:47:05 AM7/12/08
to android...@googlegroups.com
First, I'd like to echo Muthu's sentiments -- many thanks on making this
post!

JBQ wrote:
> So, while those posts aren't falling on
> deaf ears, they're typically falling in the wide-open ears of people
> whose hands are tied and whose mouths are gagged, and the frustration
> that such posts create in the Android team might in fact be larger
> than the relief that gets created in the community.

You probably can't answer this, but...

Is there anything we can do to assist with untying the hands and/or
un-gagging the mouths? Besides being patient, of course.

<voice tone="conspiratorial">

(and if you can't speak freely, cough twice in your response)

</voice>

;-)

> And,
> just like anybody else, we don't like to read implications that we're
> lazy, or that we're liars, or that we don't care about you, or any of
> the other nasty things that have been written or implied about us,
> because none of that it true.

I can't speak for those who have been more...vociferous in their
ranting, but I doubt that many of the shouts have truly been directed at
engineers. I think they have been more aimed at the "project", which, at
present, is a black box (e.g., where does Google end and OHA begin?).
Again, not speaking for anyone else, I apologize if the Android
engineering team feels persecuted due to the communications lockdown and
our reaction to same.

In many ways, we only rant because we care... :-)

--
Mark Murphy (a Commons Guy)
http://commonsware.com
Android Training on the Ranch in September! http://www.bignerdranch.com

JP

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Jul 12, 2008, 12:18:19 PM7/12/08
to Android Discuss

On Jul 12, 7:26 am, "Muthu Ramadoss" <muthu.ramad...@gmail.com> wrote:
> JBQ,
>
> We hear you. Thanks for taking your time and communicating with the android
> developer community. This I hope is the first step in bridging the gap that
> was created between Google and the Android development community after the
> public SDK stopped coming.
>
> Hats off. Keep posting.
>
> Thanks.

Same here, thank for sharing.
It's not like we could (seriously) expect answers to big picture
question. The Android team cannot control some considerable aspects in
the first place. But at least keep the channels open about the aspects
you can. And if for one reason or another, some things cannot be
shared at one point, it's perfectly fine to state that that's the case
and if possible explain that.
Like we've seen there's a pretty bad impact when you cut off. I am
miffed for example (to inject a grief I've had recently) that the 1800-
number (number of entries to the Challenge I) is leveraged in the
press when on the other side we see treatment like we have. Guy's....
don't do stuff like that, especially considering that you'll need all
hands on deck when you need leverage to fight for *your* (and ours:
open source) interest when things are getting tight; and they will.
When someone ends up with bad compromises, at least one can go to
sleep at night and tell him or herself: you've done everything
possible.

I've been sloppy working out that Android licensing thought. What I
probably should have said was that carriers will likely go out and
(evil-)brand their product/service based on an Android derivative,
call it whatever their legal advisers will endorse, what they can
train their marketeers to pitch and what will provide maximum leverage
of the Google brand name (in the bigger picture: does the "Android"
name mean much anyhow). If things play out that way... *that's* going
to be pain for the Android team and it has been a bit of a shocker to
see how you guys cut off communications on a relatively easy set of
stakeholders like us. You all's have credit 'round here, but
immediately it raises doubt whether you are prepared to fight a fight
with the carriers when the Android team can't get the seemingly simple
things done.

Let me also say that one of the darker side aspects to me is
unceremoniously cutting off the developer advocates. Unless I've
gotten the wrong impression: This has torched Dan M. and others who
have been busting their tails off just a few months ago. A good time
to recognize their efforts, now that we know (not just suspect) that
they've been gagged. Seriously I hope they're not getting a heart
attack; there's been a bunch including myself who have been turning on
the heat...
For my personal entertainment I'll say I suppose they did not expect
something like this to happen when they walked by expecting mother
parking signs on their way to their first job interview. (;->)

Re: chasing SDK's: It's about what poison to chose. There's no right
answer. If we can't get visibility where the SDK goes, the concerns
with every piece of code we implement and every design decision we
take on an "old" release is that we might paint ourselves into a
corner. Lessons learned about focusing on design and architecture are
all valuable, but in the end it's code that actually runs on a
platform, not concepts, and that's what keeps us (or at least me)
going.

JP

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Jul 12, 2008, 12:21:18 PM7/12/08
to Android Discuss


On Jul 12, 8:47 am, Mark Murphy <mmur...@commonsware.com> wrote:
> I can't speak for those who have been more...vociferous in their
> ranting, but I doubt that many of the shouts have truly been directed at
> engineers. I think they have been more aimed at the "project", which, at
> present, is a black box (e.g., where does Google end and OHA begin?).
> Again, not speaking for anyone else, I apologize if the Android
> engineering team feels persecuted due to the communications lockdown and
> our reaction to same.
>
> In many ways, we only rant because we care... :-)

Couldn't have been said better.

Hong

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Jul 11, 2008, 12:23:24 PM7/11/08
to android...@googlegroups.com
JBQ, we need an updated SDK.  That's the original point of this post.
Why dodge the main concern us developers are having now?

Shane Isbell

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Jul 11, 2008, 12:52:34 PM7/11/08
to android...@googlegroups.com
I think we are all aware by now that Google doesn't have the resources to cut an SDK release, doing a community focus, AND to get the devices launched. This is perfectly understandable; it seems to me that a lot of developers are merely saying that it is no longer their problem.
 
Shane

JBQ

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Jul 12, 2008, 7:39:28 PM7/12/08
to Android Discuss
I'm really not allowed to say anything concrete about the possibility
of an updated SDK at any point in the future. I'm left with two
options: say nothing at all, or try to say as much as I think can get
away with about other subjects, even if that doesn't answer the SDK
question, and even if I sometimes have to answer in an oblique way.

Saying things I'm strictly not allowed to say wouldn't accomplish
anything positive: saying isn't doing, and even if I said something
there wouldn't be an SDK available. Furthermore I'd probably lose my
job over it, and I'd like to think that I contribute enough to Android
that losing my job wouldn't be beneficial to Android as a whole (and
it certainly wouldn't be beneficial to me, in more than one way).

I'll try to answer a few of the questions that popped up, or to
clarify some of my earlier comments...

About accelerating the untying or un-gagging: I don't know if there's
much to be done. We've been struggling in those restraints for months,
and no matter how much we try they don't seem to ever get any looser
(but at least they don't seem to be getting any tighter either). I'm
afraid that everyone (both engineers on the inside and developers on
the outside) will have to be patient.

About the advocates: I have no reason to believe that at any point
they got gagged more than they already were. Overwhelmed, certainly.
Burnt out, possibly. I certainly don't envy their position, and my
hat's off to them.

"We rant because we care" (slightly misquoted): very well said. I'll
reply "we listen and reply because we care". And in the end we all end
up within a heated discussion between people who care for exactly the
same thing, which is truly bizarre and sad.

JBQ (Android Engineer)

On Jul 11, 9:23 am, Hong <lordh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> JBQ, we need an updated SDK. That's the original point of this post.
> Why dodge the main concern us developers are having now?
>

efon...@gmail.com

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Jul 12, 2008, 11:25:57 PM7/12/08
to Android Discuss

" "We rant because we care" (slightly misquoted): very well said. I'll
reply "we listen and reply because we care". And in the end we all
end
up within a heated discussion between people who care for exactly the
same thing, which is truly bizarre and sad."

Thank you for posting this two part sequence with no predictions of
the future.

Thank you also for posting the fix for sound on VISTA seeing as how
you can't get XP easily any more etc. That is really a big deal as I
bought a Vista notebook just to have a computer to run the SDK. It
made software for the challenge but could not (before now) do the next
step of tying sounds to mouse positions.

Please consider positioning Android as the operating system for
parents who care about their kids - older kids. The programming
process is pretty easy once you get past the file management stuff.
You have seen a homeschooler here who wants his kid to learn this -
and the kid seems to be driving it. The MIT folks seemed to enjoy
their work. I liked what I could do - even though I did have to go on
faith that the sound was OK.

Please touch base with the app engine folks as Android and App engine
that play great together... looks differentiated to me.

I don't know about the bizzare and sad part. I think the gag is sad,
but people want to say something positive when no one person can make
any commitment about the future - so we understand the gag and
appreciate the VISTA sound help.

My hopes are the the challenge painted a picture of what cell phones
could do and you had to adjust direction slightly to accomdate
different visions. Most adjustments cause loss. Loss causes heated
discussion, because people are trying to do the best work of their
lives.

Muthu Ramadoss

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Jul 12, 2008, 11:41:55 PM7/12/08
to android...@googlegroups.com
>> Furthermore I'd probably lose my job over it, and I'd like to think that I contribute enough to Android that losing my job wouldn't be beneficial to Android as a whole (and it certainly wouldn't be beneficial to me, in more than one way).


Heard Google is pretty tight on employee blogs. You have done a great thing of engaging the community again. We would like you to be with Android and address our concerns as much as possible so it benefits Android as a whole. So please tell us only what you can, and we'll understand.

Sean Kelley

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Jul 15, 2008, 1:12:48 AM7/15/08
to android...@googlegroups.com
I believe that Google is realizing just how complex and difficult
phone stability testing and compliance testing can be with carriers
for their supposed Q4 launch.

Reason for SDK delay is obvious. Not enough people to focus on SDK
with a focus on meeting those complex compliance matrices that
carriers require and any and all NVIOTs and critical carrier
requirements.

A typical carrier compliance document can run to thousands of lines in
massive spreadsheets. The quiet you hear right now is all of the
Android developers focused on product launch and all the complexities
of actually meeting those requirements.

They have zero time for SDK. Been there.

Sean

Google And Blog

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Jul 12, 2008, 11:55:26 PM7/12/08
to Android Discuss
Would be great if Jean (JBQ) or a head engineer at Android could be
the technical spokesman for the product like spam engineer Matt Cutts
does for SEO - attending conferences and blogging openly about
updates, best practices, etc.

This would take the load off the engineers as a whole to focus on the
work and complete the software while at the same time being inclusive
by getting a face and the communication out there.

My 2 cents.



Michael Martin

Google And Blog - GPhone Android News

http://www.googleandblog.com/
> http://cookingcapsules.com- nourish your droid.http://mobeegal.in- find stuff closer.- Hide quoted text -

Sean Sullivan

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Jul 14, 2008, 12:21:53 PM7/14/08
to Android Discuss


On Jul 3, 2:38 pm, Andrew Lewis <andle...@gmail.com> wrote:
> +1 for a roadmap of future SDK releases


+1

candrews

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Jul 14, 2008, 10:20:55 AM7/14/08
to Android Discuss
Instead of going to the iPhone of Windows Mobile, why not go to
OpenMoko? There's already a device selling (the FreeRunner), there's
an active community, SDKs are available, and your Android knowledge
can at least partially apply as Android and OpenMoko have a decent
amount in common.

On Jul 11, 4:42 am, just-some-guy <google-analytics....@daloo.de>
wrote:

just-some-guy

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Jul 15, 2008, 7:03:17 AM7/15/08
to Android Discuss
just gimme a nightly build. i dont need documentation. the fact, that
i can write code makes me read code, too, doenst it.

gjs

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Jul 15, 2008, 12:23:49 AM7/15/08
to Android Discuss
Hi Android Developer Challenge Team,

That is great news.

Now how about releasing this to the public developers as well.

We have been waiting many months already, with no road map for the
public sdk release schedule.

Thanks

Regards Gary

On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 7:50 AM, Android Developer Challenge Team
<android...@google.com> wrote:

ADC Entrants,

We're pleased to announce that SDK build 84853 is now available on
your private download site. This will be the last build released for
ADC Round 2 and is the build that you will need to submit your final
application under.

In addition, the final ADC deadline has been extended to Tuesday,
August 5. This is the final ADC deadline.

Thanks!
Android Developer Challenge Team

mi...@mm-agency.com

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Jul 13, 2008, 12:01:10 AM7/13/08
to android...@googlegroups.com

Would be great if Jean or a head engineer at Android could be the technical spokesman for the product like spam engineer Matt Cutts does for SEO - attending conferences and blogging openly about updates, best practices, etc.

 

Michael Martin

Google And Blog - GPhone Android News

http://www.googleandblog.com/

 

remi

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Jul 15, 2008, 6:44:12 AM7/15/08
to Android Discuss
+1

I don't understand why everything is so closed for an open source
platform. If this were any other open source project, all developers
would be able to follow the trunk and we would be submitting bug
fixes ... not sitting around waiting for them.

Google has really shown that they understand the open source community
equally as well as Microsoft ... inotherwords, not at all. I hope the
community is embraced and Android grows to see its true potential.

I hope that Android becomes the best platform because it has the best
development tools. I've never developed for a mobile platform
before ... but I can't *wait* to one day write and distribute Android
apps.

I still have *very* high hopes!

remi

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Jul 15, 2008, 6:51:58 AM7/15/08
to Android Discuss
( +1 )

I haven't seen my first reply show up yet, but I've since been reading
more ... and I'm really happy to see things like JBQs' long response.

I think everyone knows that it's not the Android Dev Team's fault ...
but being very public and open about developer frustration seems
necessary so the Dev Team can say to their higher-ups "Hey, look at
all of these pissed off people ... can we do something about this?"

kiran

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Jul 16, 2008, 3:20:09 AM7/16/08
to Android Discuss
(+1) Good bye Android...

kiran

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Jul 16, 2008, 3:21:35 AM7/16/08
to Android Discuss
(+1) Good bye Android...

On Jul 15, 3:51 pm, remi <remitay...@gmail.com> wrote:

Praline

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Jul 16, 2008, 5:33:12 AM7/16/08
to Android Discuss
+1 for a public SDK release

Nicolas

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Jul 16, 2008, 4:20:26 AM7/16/08
to Android Discuss
+1

plusminus

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Jul 17, 2008, 5:54:14 AM7/17/08
to Android Discuss
Hey guys,

due to the high waves this petition has caused, I created a small
script, where developers can sign the petition and the result gets
actually counted!

> http://www.anddev.org/petition/
* What is logged: IP, Name and TimeStamp
* Non of all above is shown in public!

Regards,
plusminus

blindfold

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Jul 18, 2008, 1:36:34 AM7/18/08
to Android Discuss
+1

I'm mostly developing for Java ME (J2ME), particularly for Nokia
Symbian,
and have for the time being stopped developing for Google Android
until
basic MediaPlayer (API) issues such as playing data arrays get sorted
out.

On Jun 28, 11:57 am, plusminus <stoeps...@gmx.de> wrote:
> Hello everyone,
>
> I'm starting this petition, to express my personal frustration about
...

twickl

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Jul 16, 2008, 1:53:56 PM7/16/08
to Android Discuss
+1 for u publix SDK

in fact of the actual policy, I started to port my Projects to the
iPhone Plattform...

stefan2904

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Jul 17, 2008, 10:06:33 AM7/17/08
to Android Discuss
+1 !

On 28 Jun., 11:57, plusminus <stoeps...@gmx.de> wrote:
> Hello everyone,
>
> I'm starting this petition, to express my personal frustration about

masterdot

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Jul 16, 2008, 3:00:40 PM7/16/08
to Android Discuss
... i dont know why they do that...

android has a lot of potential... but iphone gets more fans every day
and the openmoko project is quite stable now...

this could be fatal if google leaves the "other" developers out...

+1 for this petition

zyklop

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Jul 18, 2008, 4:05:34 AM7/18/08
to Android Discuss
Running a group about android at German business network "Xing" i
followed this discussion with special interest.

In my opinion Google is shortly running out of time. The idea of a
mobile opensource os is great, but competitors don´t sleep. Nokia
already reacted and annouced, that they will buy Symbian completely
and transfere it into an opensoure license. Long term projects like
openmoko or LiMo foundation are also on the way. Success of android
depends on the global developer community and its steps to develop
extraordinary applications (groupware, games, etc.) and for this they
need a stable sdk. Without it (and a fitting hardware platform for
testing) android will loose contact with the other projects - and will
loose the run. So simple it is...

Xing Android group: https://www.xing.com/net/mobile_opensource
German Android info website: http://www.android-os.de/

steffen...@googlemail.com

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Jul 17, 2008, 2:34:30 AM7/17/08
to Android Discuss
+1 from Germany, Bonn

Android starts great but this kind of behavior is not appropriate.

Actually, the IPhone SDK is really promising - and available like the
hardware : ) Maybe we should switch all together

steffen...@googlemail.com

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Jul 17, 2008, 2:41:28 AM7/17/08
to Android Discuss
You (the Android Team) promissed a lot... and leaving the rest behind
is not a good idea. Yes, we (The Others) would love to see an GPhone
as soon as possible, but if you stop talking to the community, the
community
will stop believing and trusting in you (the Android Team).



On 11 Jul., 18:16, JBQ <jbqu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> just-some-guy: is this a way of saying that we (Google Android team)
> should continue to focus on making sure that devices can be available
> as quickly as we possibly can?
>
> JBQ (Android Engineer).
>
> On Jul 11, 1:42 am, just-some-guy <google-analytics....@daloo.de>

Thermophilus

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Jul 17, 2008, 4:04:21 PM7/17/08
to Android Discuss
+1

aero seven

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Jul 17, 2008, 4:54:19 AM7/17/08
to Android Discuss
+1