Around 75% of ADC2 will use 1.6 Cupcake

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Spencer Riddering

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Oct 2, 2009, 12:05:18 PM10/2/09
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It's only a week into the ADC2 judging and already phones are being
updated to Android 1.6 Cupcake. With at least one more week to go in
the first round and (I'm guessing) two more weeks of judging in the
second round this means that around 75% of the ADC2 judging will occur
on Android 1.6. The 1.6 SDK was not made available to developers until
after the ADC2 deadline so (except for a few exceptions) all of the
ADC2 applications were not tested on this judging platform.

Already an undocumented change in 1.6, which can break applications
that worked on 1.5, has been discovered here
http://groups.google.com/group/android-developers/browse_thread/thread/61aca5f1f5bb0884/8cdd93627f37d636?lnk=gst
and Google has acknowledged the problem here
http://groups.google.com/group/android-developers/browse_thread/thread/9abb325786b5829c/aebe4677b6620a25?lnk=gst&q=%22There+was+a+bug+in+the+VM+in+1.5+that+would+allow+abstract+classes+to+be+instantiated+through+reflection.%22#aebe4677b6620a25

Why is Google allowing an estimated 75% of the ADC2 to be judged on a
platform version that almost no one has had a chance to test on?

Spencer Riddering

Hong

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Oct 2, 2009, 3:57:50 PM10/2/09
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the minimum sdk version in the manifest was supposedly the gate keeper here...

Rmac

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Oct 2, 2009, 5:17:50 PM10/2/09
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The sdk version in the manifest doesn't affect 1.6 introduced
problems. My app using min of 1.5 still has encountered 1.6 issues
(and force quits) that don't occur when running under Android 1.5.

On Oct 2, 2:57 pm, Hong <lordh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> the minimum sdk version in the manifest was supposedly the gate keeper
> here...
>
> On Fri, Oct 2, 2009 at 12:05 PM, Spencer Riddering <spen...@leankeen.com>wrote:
>
>
>
> > It's only a week into the ADC2 judging and already phones are being
> > updated to Android 1.6 Cupcake. With at least one more week to go in
> > the first round and (I'm guessing) two more weeks of judging in the
> > second round this means that around 75% of the ADC2 judging will occur
> > on Android 1.6. The 1.6 SDK was not made available to developers until
> > after the ADC2 deadline so (except for a few exceptions) all of the
> > ADC2 applications were not tested on this judging platform.
>
> > Already an undocumented change in 1.6, which can break applications
> > that worked on 1.5, has been discovered here
>
> >http://groups.google.com/group/android-developers/browse_thread/threa...
> > and  Google has acknowledged the problem here
>
> >http://groups.google.com/group/android-developers/browse_thread/threa...

Shane Isbell

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Oct 2, 2009, 5:22:47 PM10/2/09
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On Fri, Oct 2, 2009 at 2:17 PM, Rmac <ry...@me.com> wrote:

The sdk version in the manifest doesn't affect 1.6 introduced
problems.  My app using min of 1.5 still has encountered 1.6 issues
(and force quits) that don't occur when running under Android 1.5.
Then it sounds like the fair thing to do would be to cut the ADC contest off before the release of 1.6 into the wild.

--
Shane Isbell (Co-founder of SlideME - The Original Market for Android)
http://twitter.com/sisbell
http://twitter.com/slideme

Hong

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Oct 2, 2009, 5:40:17 PM10/2/09
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That just means 1.6 is not backward compatible with 1.5 ;)

Google's fault, of course.

ande...@phdgaming.com

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Oct 2, 2009, 7:22:02 PM10/2/09
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I'd support a 5-day update windows between rounds. It would not look
great for an app to make it to the top 200 from the first week of
voting, but then do nothing but crash in the 2nd round. Besides
allowing people to test and fix 1.6 issues, it would also ensure the
top 200 are fully polished and reflect well for the Android platform.

However - I can also see people who might view the above as unfair as
well. It is the question without an easy solution - now that 1.6 is
out, what would be the best course of action Google could take besides
staying the course?

On Oct 2, 12:05 pm, Spencer Riddering <spen...@leankeen.com> wrote:
> It's only a week into the ADC2 judging and already phones are being
> updated to Android 1.6 Cupcake. With at least one more week to go in
> the first round and (I'm guessing) two more weeks of judging in the
> second round this means that around 75% of the ADC2 judging will occur
> on Android 1.6. The 1.6 SDK was not made available to developers until
> after the ADC2 deadline so (except for a few exceptions) all of the
> ADC2 applications were not tested on this judging platform.
>
> Already an undocumented change in 1.6, which can break applications
> that worked on 1.5, has been discovered herehttp://groups.google.com/group/android-developers/browse_thread/threa...
> and  Google has acknowledged the problem herehttp://groups.google.com/group/android-developers/browse_thread/threa...

JoaJP

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Oct 2, 2009, 7:29:43 PM10/2/09
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Once everything's said and done... I don't expect we will ever hear
whether this number is correct or not. * Likely an alarmist figure
though. BTW. who estimated that (reference to source, please).
But as an answer to your question, how about: Pushing out new devices
on a fresh new carrier has precedence over a properly run ADC.

Then, it might not be that big of an issue after all.

Shane Isbell

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Oct 2, 2009, 7:41:19 PM10/2/09
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Given how ADC1 was run, none of this surprises me.

JoaJP

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Oct 2, 2009, 7:45:35 PM10/2/09
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I'm with you on that one. I suppose we have the benefit of the
experience to not get too excited about ADC 2.

Spencer Riddering

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Oct 2, 2009, 10:20:12 PM10/2/09
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My point wasn't to sound an alarm. It was intended to be thought
provoking.

I want to remind Google that IMHO the preferred judging platform is
1.5 so anything they can do to tip the scales towards using 1.5 is the
right choice. For example, will the industry professional judges in
round 2 be asked to use devices running 1.5 if possible?

My point was also a bit reflective. How did we get here? How can this
situation be avoided in the future?


On Oct 3, 12:05 am, Spencer Riddering <spen...@leankeen.com> wrote:
> It's only a week into the ADC2 judging and already phones are being
> updated to Android 1.6 Cupcake. With at least one more week to go in
> the first round and (I'm guessing) two more weeks of judging in the
> second round this means that around 75% of the ADC2 judging will occur
> on Android 1.6. The 1.6 SDK was not made available to developers until
> after the ADC2 deadline so (except for a few exceptions) all of the
> ADC2 applications were not tested on this judging platform.
>
> Already an undocumented change in 1.6, which can break applications
> that worked on 1.5, has been discovered herehttp://groups.google.com/group/android-developers/browse_thread/threa...
> and  Google has acknowledged the problem herehttp://groups.google.com/group/android-developers/browse_thread/threa...

JoaJP

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Oct 4, 2009, 1:54:13 AM10/4/09
to Android Discuss


On Oct 2, 7:20 pm, Spencer Riddering <spen...@leankeen.com> wrote:
> My point wasn't to sound an alarm. It was intended to be thought
> provoking.
>

I've installed 1.6 and fired up the emulator with an 1.6 AVD. Couldn't
find a problem with apks' that were built against 1.5.
This is preliminary of course until I've had some real time with 1.6
on a device... I suppose I'll dig for that tomorrow or play it lazy
and wait until T-Mobile sends the OTA update.
So I *think*: so far so good, overall there might not be all that much
to the issue.

BTW -anybody know whether T-Mobile will update the Google Ion's OTA?

Raphael

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Oct 5, 2009, 12:17:31 AM10/5/09
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Out of curiosity: how many developers of adc2 apps tested their apps
under the 1.6 emulator and actually found any issue?

If the app is using public APIs and/or the 1.5 NDK, it should work
fine under 1.6. If not, make sure to file bugs at http://b.android.com
so that issues can be addressed.

R/

bellapariah

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Oct 5, 2009, 2:31:43 AM10/5/09
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I just got the 1.6 download and found out my ADC2 app is not working
anymore. Works fine on 1.5 but people with 1.6 can't log in. Guess
that explains the sudden drop in new accounts being created (We got
around 70 testers before numbers plummeted to 5 to 6 over the
weekend). :( If Google planned to release 1.6 in the middle of a
contest, they should have informed developers and given them the tools
to test their app on this platform. We spent months on creating a high
quality app for this contest and now people can't even judge it! There
are probably hundreds of other developers that spent sleepless nights
working their butt off to finish before the deadline just to have
their chances decimated by google. All I can say is that I'm extremely
disappointed in the way Google has handled this entire contest and I
think it is extremely unfair and inconsiderate the way they are
treating developers that they are supposed to be attracting to the
Android platform.

Shelby

On Oct 2, 9:05 am, Spencer Riddering <spen...@leankeen.com> wrote:
> It's only a week into the ADC2 judging and already phones are being
> updated to Android 1.6 Cupcake. With at least one more week to go in
> the first round and (I'm guessing) two more weeks of judging in the
> second round this means that around 75% of the ADC2 judging will occur
> on Android 1.6. The 1.6 SDK was not made available to developers until
> after the ADC2 deadline so (except for a few exceptions) all of the
> ADC2 applications were not tested on this judging platform.
>
> Already an undocumented change in 1.6, which can break applications
> that worked on 1.5, has been discovered herehttp://groups.google.com/group/android-developers/browse_thread/threa...
> and  Google has acknowledged the problem herehttp://groups.google.com/group/android-developers/browse_thread/threa...
Message has been deleted

Mobidev

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Oct 5, 2009, 3:18:38 AM10/5/09
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> If the app is using public APIs and/or the 1.5 NDK, it should work
> fine under 1.6.
it should work... but the matter-of-fact is it doesn't work on 1.6.
I'm aware of broken widget issue from 1.5 to 1.6 - though I’ve not yet
debugged for details. Dig the android-developer group for a couple of
other cases of adc2 apps broken on 1.6.

>If not, make sure to file bugs at http://b.android.com
>so that issues can be addressed.
Yes, developers should report a bug... but as far as adc2 is
concerned apps must not be judged on 1.6. A definite NO!!! NO!!! Adc2
judging app should not be supported on 1.6. Or better call-off the
“community” judging for Round2 and let only the "expert" judges select
the winning entries by evaluating the apps on 1.5 only.

Even a single adc2 entry not working on 1.6 as compared with testing
on 1.5 makes a strong case for above options. Whereas, there are at-
least a handful of "reported" cases on android-developer group
regarding adc2 entry app's failure on 1.6

Raphael, appreciate your effort in coming forward and investigate this
whole adc2 on 1.6 issue(as probably this is the first official
response in this matter).
I would recommend that adc2 team should not assume that there are not
many broken adc2 entries or that they can be fixed on the platform-
side, based solely on developer/contestant response. I have an app
that works fine on 1.5 but is broken on 1.6, yet I do not have
sufficient time to debug and report it at this moment. Adc2 was meant
for 1.5 and should continue with that. Unfortunately I see this not
happening (read further only to know why).

If I’ve read into the ADC2 developments correctly, Round-1 was meant
to be a filtering round and avoid poorly built “HelloWorld I can code
for Android so can you offer me Android work?” slip-out to larger
audience. Round-2 will see public/media announcements to judge a
better set of 200 apps. Certainly is good for overall Android/
developer image. So what I understand is 200 apps are meant to reach
and involve larger audience (than initial n,nnn apps). This means
community-judging cannot be called-off. 1.6 is a commercial commitment
and cannot be meddled with either. Developers cannot be given an
opportunity to fix their entries for 1.6, as competitor’s apps are
exposed and will lead to copying of ideas. Very little hope with adc2
for apps broken due to 1.6 release.

bellapariah

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Oct 5, 2009, 3:24:19 AM10/5/09
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BTW...official terms and conditions state:

"a. SUBMISSION OF ENTRIES: To qualify for a Prize, an "Entry" to the
Challenge consists of an original application that is written using a
version of the Android Software Development Kit ("SDK") (available at
http://developer.android.com) that validly executes on Android version
1.5. The SDK contains instructions, documentation, and all necessary
tools to enable a Participant to build an Android application."

Why tell developers the contest is for apps built on 1.5 when you
probably knew all along that you were going to release the new
platform in the middle of the contest, thus rendering many of these
apps unusable? We spent 3 months making a great app and I've been
hosting a server just for this contest and now testers can't even
login to test the application if they have the 1.6 update.

Shelby

Spencer Riddering

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Oct 5, 2009, 3:56:06 AM10/5/09
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First of all, this isn't true and second its beside the point.

How many ADC2 applications need to be affected before its considered a
real issue? My application no longer works correctly under 1.6 and I
only used public APIs. Is that enough? (Yes, the bug was submitted
and the problem acknowledged)

What do you think should happen to a developer's app if they
accidentally used a non-public API?

Again, my point is that the preferred judging platform version is 1.5
and encouraging it's use whenever safe is the right thing to do.

Do you disagree?

Spencer Riddering


On Oct 5, 12:17 pm, Raphael <r...@android.com> wrote:
> Out of curiosity: how many developers of adc2 apps tested their apps
> under the 1.6 emulator and actually found any issue?
>
> If the app is using public APIs and/or the 1.5 NDK, it should work
> fine under 1.6. If not, make sure to file bugs athttp://b.android.com
> so that issues can be addressed.
>
> R/
>

Al Sutton

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Oct 5, 2009, 4:23:17 AM10/5/09
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The impression I'm getting is that there are some apps which do stick
to public APIs and still have problems. This was also the case with
the 1.1 -> 1.5 update (particularly with some layouts).

My personal opinion is that this situation is most likely a result of
the disorganised nature of the OHA. I expect the group running ADC2 is
a different one from the one that handles distributing updates for T-
Mobile, etc., and the two just didn't talk.

That said I don't think it's a good situation, running a competition
and stating 1.5 as the platform and then having users upgrade to a new
version of their OS is a pretty unfair. You only need to look at the
recent Mac OS X update from 10.5 to 10.6 and how it now makes the
Android SDK unbuildable on Mac OS X to see what *can* happen with a
"minor" version upgrade.

Truth of the matter is though; It's happened, and all the ranting and
raving in the world isn't going to get T-Mobile and the rest to push
1.5 back out to downgrade users just so ADC2 can carry on, so I think
the point has been made and we all need to move on.

Al.

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adk

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Oct 6, 2009, 7:40:13 AM10/6/09
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Hi *,

Do you have any "official" answer regarding this fact that we had
tested the ADC2 applications on 1.5 and now Android users are giving
feedback based on Sdk 1.6?

Is any hope that the winners of first phase are allowed to resubmit
there applications to be 1.6 ready?

10x
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