More Greek Ollendorff

[Randy Gibbons]

Hello. Let me start by thanking Paul Nitz for inviting me to this group.

Over the last year I have recorded for my own use 73 of the 97 lessons of the Greek Ollendorff and will finish the rest this May-June. I used the restored classical pronunciation to the best of my ability (including, initially, with the tonal accent, but I think I drifted back to pretty much a stress accent.) I also created an exercise key (unaware that "Bedwere" had done the same, on Textkit and lulu.com).

Again, I did this for my own benefit. I wanted to do for my Greek what Evan Millner ("Molendarius") did several years ago with Adler for Latin, from which my Latin benefited enormously. Coincidentally, I see Evan has started presenting the Greek Ollendorff on his You Tube channel, as he recently announced to this group. My recordings are MP3s - for my own purposes, I prefer strictly audio. I can guarantee you Evan's pronunciation will be superb. Mine, probably not! In my experience, one's ancient Greek pronunciation generally pleases from 0 to 1 persons (0 if it doesn't please even yourself).

I broke the content of the 97 Ollendorff lessons into eight "albums" based on a logical division of the chapter contents, so specifically I've recorded six of my eight albums so far.

If you want to check it out, please email me (randall...@gmail.com), and I will zip you a fuller background (including an explanation of what the Greek Ollendorff is), the exercise key to the first album, and the first recordings from the first album. If after that you would like more, let me know and I'll be happy to send you the rest.

Randy Gibbons

[Mark Lightman]

χαῖρε φίλε Ρανδει!

 

I'm glad to hear that you are doing this.  I think the Greek Ollendorff is well suited to audio.  I have been listening to Bedwere's (aka Roberto) recordings because his pronunciation happens to be close to my own.  Maybe when I am finished with listening to his, I will shoot you off an e-mail and get access to yours.  I actually think that listening to a variety of proforas is a good idea.  I like Evan's stuff as well.

 

Bottom line, the more Ollendorff, and the more spoken Greek,  the better.

 

ἔρρωσο,

Μᾶρκος. 

[Randy Gibbons]

Hi Mark, and thanks for the encouragement.

I wasn't aware Bedwere/Roberto had recorded Ollendorff. I would love to get my hands on that - I agree with you, the more spoken Greek, the better. Could you kindly point me to where I can access Roberto's recordings?

Randy

Sent from my iPad

--
--------------------------------
REPLY
.... a) reply to this email, or
.... b) visit website, search for the message, hit reply button.
--------------------------------
POST
When creating a post, add a tag.
--------------------------------
GROUP WEBSITE:
https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#!forum/ancient-greek-best-practices
--------------------------------
UNSUBSCRIBE
Send an email to ancient-greek-best-p...@googlegroups.com
--------------------------------
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ancient Greek Best Practices" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to ancient-greek-best-p...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
 
 

[Mark Lightman]

χαῖρε καὶ σύ, Ρανδει!   ἐλθὲ πρὸς τοῦτον τὸν τόπον.   http://sxole.com/profiles/blogs/greek-ollendorff?xg_source=activity Mark L Μᾶρκος --- On Thu, 4/4/13, Randy Gibbons <randall...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Σαῦλος]

Ρανδει και Μαρκε,

Tell us more about Greek Ollendorf. 

Σαῦλος

[Randy Gibbons]

χαῖρε ὦ Σαῦλε.

A couple days ago, I put my Greek Ollendorff recordings and associated MS Word docs on Dropbox, including an introduction to what the "Greek Ollendorff" is and what I'm doing with it.

The Ollendorff method of teaching a foreign language, which goes back to the early nineteenth century, accompanies each lesson/grammar topic with a set of foreign language-to-native language and native language-to-foreign language exercises. The exercises are simple and "progressive," that is, they build on one another. The intention is that the student, while learning the basic grammar of the foreign language, simultaneously learn to speak, comprehend, and write it. In 1858, George Adler wrote an Ollendorff-based intro to Latin. A few years ago, Evan Millner recorded the entire Adler (97 lessons). For each lesson, he made two (or more) recordings, one reviewing the grammar topic (in English) and reading the Latin examples and exercises, the second reading just the Latin. I spent an entire year going through Adler and Evan's recordings, which I found to be an excellent way for me to resurrect my Latin. By repeated listening, I really felt I was appreciating Latin much more naturally in my bones and head than I had in graduate school several centuries ago.

Contemporaneously with Adler, a gentleman named Asahel Kendrick created a very similar "Greek Ollendorff." I thought a recording of this (coincidentally also 97 lessons) would accomplish a similar result for my resurrected Greek. In the absence of anyone else having done this (as of a year ago), I set out to record myself. I did the same thing Evan did with Adler, namely, two recordings per lesson, the first English + Greek, the second Greek only. I used the restored classical pronunciation to the best of my (very mediocre) ability. As I progressed, I created an exercise key and a vocabulary index, both absent in the original text. While I did this at first strictly for my own benefit and use, I kind of thought, should I finish the entire 97 lessons, some others might benefit from it as I had from Evan's Adler. Partly to this end, I subdivided the lessons into eight "albums" based on a natural subdivision of the grammar topics, and to date I've completed six of my eight "albums."

Lo and behold, thanks to yourself (inviting me to this forum) and Mark and a few others, I have just discovered over this last week that Bedwere/Bedaurus/Roberto has done almost the identical thing, putting an exercise key up on Textkit and Greek-only recordings on Schole. Roberto also published a (very inexpensive) print edition of the Ollendorff on lulu.com that corrects several errors in the scan and adds a table of contents and vocabulary index (his exercise key is also available in print on lulu). The chief differences between Roberto's recordings and mine are (1) his are only of the exercises (2) his are Greek-only (3) his pronunciation is bibilical/Koine, and (4) he is a much better speaker of Greek than I!

If that weren't enough, lo and behold Evan has started presenting the Greek Ollendorff on his You Tube channel, as he himself announced in this forum. As Evan himself explains in one of his videos, he is also going for the restored classical pronunciation. So suddenly we have a cornucopia of this very weird nineteenth-century thing called the Greek Ollendorff! I think it speaks to the need we all feel for a greater abundance of material we can listen to ... and listen ... and listen some more. If I had my choice, I would prefer a fuller immersion hanging out at Scholia and ΣΧΟΛΕ in the winter and at Rico's and the Vivarium Novum in Rome in the summer, but alas, my life doesn't permit that , so I welcome these recordings as the next best thing.

Randy

--

[Randy Gibbons]

Sorry, just one footnote regarding the content of the Greek Ollendorff. In elementary fashion, the lessons introduce all the basics of syntax and accidence you would expect (see the album organization in my intro on Dropbox and Roberto's table of contents), the major exception I can think of being that, except for εἰμί and εἶμι, it does not cover the μι verbs (τίθημι, ἵστημι, δίδωμι, κτλ.).

Randy

[Mark Lightman]

As an ardent foe of Grammar-Translation, I like the Greek Ollendorf because Greek syntax is explained briefly with a minimal amount of English meta-language.  The Greek exercises are not really graded in that even the exercises at the end of the book are short and easy with simple syntax.  This, and the fact that he introduces a minimal amount of vocab makes the exercises well suited for listening which provides comprehensible input.   The book would have been better if instead of English to Greek exercises he had the student answer simple Greek questions with Greek answers, maybe with filling in the blanks.  τις τρεχει?  ὁ παις και-ἡ ___   _______  (answer-- κορη....τρεχουσι   Mark L

--- On Sun, 4/7/13, Randy Gibbons <randall...@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Randy Gibbons <randall...@gmail.com> Subject: Re: {Ancient Greek Best Practices:172} Re: More Greek Ollendorff To: ancient-greek-...@googlegroups.com

[Σαῦλος]

I had to repost this message from John Piazza from Latin Best Practices group.  There's gold in this post.  I'll post this here under Ollendorf, but there's much more.

Re: At last joined Ben Slavic's site - any suggestions?

Mon Apr 22, 2013 11:09 am (PDT) . Posted by:

"John P. Piazza" jpatpiazza

Michael,

If you haven't looked over it already, I encourage you to check out the document that Bob, David M. and I created, called "How to begin CI." You can download the pdf from my home page: johnpiazza.net

The most powerful tool that will help you in making Oerberg's excellent text even more useful is embedded reading. LL is a wonderful text, but, like most textbooks, it introduces too much new vocabulary and grammar to be truly comprehensible for beginners, especially after the first few chapters.

If you know that you will be using all or some of the stories from that book,  spend some time learning about Laurie Clarcq's method of creating embedded readings, that is adapting a reading, and then adapt 2 or 3 easier versions of a story from each of the early chapters. In addition, it would be helpful to check out Ann Matava's and Jim Tripp's Story Script books (mad-lib style story skeletons based on 3 words/phrases), and look for the stories that have the most overlap with Oerberg's vocabulary in the early chapters.

I don't think it's necessary to have an abundance of ancillary materials--many of those simply get in the way, without providing deeper exposure to the language itself that students need. But if you can begin the year with easier versions of the text, and a few story templates based on the core vocabulary from the early chapters and/or classroom words and phrases, you will have everything you need. The other piece of the CI puzzle is the classroom culture of respectful listening, not interrupting,  staying in the target language, and demonstrating comprehension--that is what the "jGR" you mentioned refers to, it is basically an assessment piece which allows teachers to measure these behaviors (as opposed to "behavior"; or "conduct" in general). Our introduction document addresses this as well, in brief.

Another reason not to worry too much about textbook materials is that you may choose not to introduce the textbook until a few months in. During those first few months, the class discussions (based on story scripts mentioned above, or based on personalized question-answer (PQA) of key vocab and grammar structures,or discussing student interests as they have indicated on cards/questionnaires during the first week) could provide more than enough material to create basic readings, stories, etc.

Ben's group is a wonderfully supportive and safe forum for teachers who have really made the leap into CI teaching (mental or actual), to share their materials, ideas, struggles, successes, strategies, etc. If anyone is definitely planning to jump into CI/TPRS next year but is still uncertain about logistics, spending a few hours a week on Ben's site this summer will really help you in August/September. But it is not for teachers who are still on the fence regarding the pros/cons of CI, or those interested in a hybrid approach. That is what we are trying to provide here on LBP, because we know the particular limitations and obstacles that Latin teachers face.

Interestingly enough (as per Jim H's comment on the similarities between Latin and modern languages), it has been eye-opening to hear about the amount of resistance that even modern language teachers face when they opt out of the textbook-based scope and sequence in favor of a more comprehensible and student-centered approach. So while we have our own unique pedagogical tradition to come to terms with, the grass over in the modern languages is not always greener.

John

 
John Piazza
Cathedral School for Boys
San Francisco, CA
www.johnpiazza.net
The Essential Marcus Aurelius

[Randy Gibbons]

Sorry, Paul, I'm probably being clueless, but are you sure you're not confusing Ollendorff and Oerberg?

[Σαῦλος]

You’re right Randy, I mixed up the two Ollenberg & Oerberg.

John Piazza mentions a few things in his post that I’ve hunted down:

Document: HOW TO BEGIN CI (Comprehensible Input) 

Opening paragraph,  “Although TPRS is a holistic method that works best when a teacher has “taken the plunge,” doing so requires a certain amount of training, practice, reflection, and sometimes a bit of personal and professional risk. Those of us who use CI-­‐based methods usually began by trying a few things, and met with so much success in terms of student engagement and comprehension, that these first baby steps gave us the courage to try more. So, here we offer a way to begin. “

Website:  BEN SLAVIC’SGROUP  

Ben Slavic has taken TPRS and refined it beyond what is described in Blaine Ray’s book on TPRS.  John mentions “Ben’s group” as being very supportive.  In another post on Latin Best Practices, Bob Patrick says “There is very little on Ben's site that I don't try and do.” 

It costs $5 / month, but I bet it's worth it.  One month trial is free.

[Mark Lightman]

Thanks Paul.  I knew about (and in fact I am a writer of) "leveled readings" in Ancient Greek, but I was unfamiliar with the concept of embedded readings.  I just wrote one and posted it on Textkit.   http://www.textkit.com/greek-latin-forum/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=59897 The method, I think, has potential. Μᾶρκος --- On Tue, 4/23/13, Σαῦλος <pn...@seelsorger.org> wrote:

From: Σαῦλος <pn...@seelsorger.org> Subject: Re: {Ancient Greek Best Practices:233} Re: More Greek Ollendorff To: ancient-greek-...@googlegroups.com

Date: Tuesday, April 23, 2013, 1:23 PM

I had to repost this message from John Piazza from Latin Best Practices group.  There's gold in this post.  I'll post this here under Ollendorf, but there's much more.

Re: At last joined Ben Slavic's site - any suggestions? Mon Apr 22, 2013 11:09 am (PDT) . Posted by: "John P. Piazza" jpatpiazza

Michael, If you haven't looked over it already, I encourage you to check out the document that Bob, David M. and I created, called "How to begin CI." You can download the pdf from my home page: johnpiazza.net The most powerful tool that will help you in making Oerberg' s excellent text even more useful is embedded reading. LL is a wonderful text, but, like most textbooks, it introduces too much new vocabulary and grammar to be truly comprehensible for beginners, especially after the first few chapters.

If you know that you will be using all or some of the stories from that book,  spend some time learning about Laurie Clarcq's method of creating embedded readings, that is adapting a reading, and then adapt 2 or 3 easier versions of a story from each of the early chapters. In addition, it would be helpful to check out Ann Matava's and Jim Tripp's Story Script books (mad-lib style story skeletons based on 3 words/phrases) , and look for the stories that have the most overlap with Oerberg' s vocabulary in the early chapters. I don't think it's necessary to have an abundance of ancillary materials--many of those simply get in the way, without providing deeper exposure to the language itself that students need. But if you can begin the year with easier versions of the text, and a few story templates based on the core vocabulary from the early chapters and/or classroom words and phrases, you will have everything you need. The other piece of the CI puzzle is the classroom culture of respectful listening, not interrupting,  staying in the target language, and demonstrating comprehension- -that is what the "jGR" you mentioned refers to, it is basically an assessment piece which allows teachers to measure these behaviors (as opposed to "behavior" ; or "conduct" in general). Our introduction document addresses this as well, in brief. Another reason not to worry too much about textbook materials is that you may choose not to introduce the textbook until a few months in. During those first few months, the class discussions (based on story scripts mentioned above, or based on personalized question-answer (PQA) of key vocab and grammar structures,or discussing student interests as they have indicated on cards/questionnaire s during the first week) could provide more than enough material to create basic readings, stories, etc.

Ben's group is a wonderfully supportive and safe forum for teachers who have really made the leap into CI teaching (mental or actual), to share their materials, ideas, struggles, successes, strategies, etc. If anyone is definitely planning to jump into CI/TPRS next year but is still uncertain about logistics, spending a few hours a week on Ben's site this summer will really help you in August/September. But it is not for teachers who are still on the fence regarding the pros/cons of CI, or those interested in a hybrid approach. That is what we are trying to provide here on LBP, because we know the particular limitations and obstacles that Latin teachers face. Interestingly enough (as per Jim H's comment on the similarities between Latin and modern languages), it has been eye-opening to hear about the amount of resistance that even modern language teachers face when they opt out of the textbook-based scope and sequence in favor of a more comprehensible and student-centered approach. So while we have our own unique pedagogical tradition to come to terms with, the grass over in the modern languages is not always greener. John   John Piazza Cathedral School for Boys San Francisco, CA www.johnpiazza.net The Essential Marcus Aurelius

-- -------------------------------- REPLY .... a) reply to this email, or .... b) visit website, search for the message, hit reply button. -------------------------------- POST When creating a post, add a tag. -------------------------------- GROUP WEBSITE: https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#!forum/ancient-greek-best-practices -------------------------------- UNSUBSCRIBE

Send an email to ancient-greek-best-practices+unsub...@googlegroups.com

-------------------------------- --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ancient Greek Best Practices" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to ancient-greek-best-practices+unsub...@googlegroups.com.

[Σαῦλος]

Mark, 

Embedded readings has GREAT potential, and especially under your skilled hand.  I really enjoyed the story you posted.  πολλα, παρακαλω!  

[Σαῦλος]

Here's a little update on Ollendorf over at TEXTKIT

http://www.textkit.com/greek-latin-forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=60711