Hans Orberg's Lingua latina per se illustrata. Anything similar in Greek?

[Albertus]

Chairete!

I've been studying Greek at college undergraduate and graduate levels at American universities for more than a decade now.

My frustration with the language has no parallel. I have taught my native language (modern Spanish) for over 10 years also.  My students learn to use subjunctive within months of starting the language.

Finally last Summer I discovered while attending one of the Septimanae Latinae in Europe (I believe there's one in the US, at U. Kentucky) Hans Orberg's Lingua Latina per se illustrata.  What a marvellous method!  It's so well paced and thought out that surpasses any other textbook a thousand fold.  This and Wheelock (yes, the traditional grammar-translation method just because it is so well put together, despite all the shortcomings of the methodology) are by far the only textbooks I would rely on if I had to teach Latin.

It is about time that teachers of Latin and Greek get up to date on second language acquisition.  There's absolutely no reason why we should treat these languages any different.  The great disadvantage is finding an audience ready to speak the languages.  The Septimanae Latinae are well established (in Germany and some other places in Europe, U of Kentucky is the bright exception in the US).  When are we going to have the same opportunity in Greek?  Is anyone working on this project?  Is this project even realizable?  Are the Septimanae possible because of the (Renaissance/) humanistic tradition?  Is this then a lost cause for Greek?

I look forward to hearing anyone's opinion.  If any of these questions have already been addressed, please, be kind to point me in their direction.

[Seumas Macdonald]

χαῖρε, Ἀλβερτε

Since someone else will undoubtedly mention it anyway, I am working on a project to realise a Greek version of Ørberg's Familia Romana. The project is going slowly and hasn't been helped by some instabilities in my personal life, but it is proceeding. Is it realisable? I think yes, but I also think 'not yet'. What I am doing is a fairly straight translation of the Latin text, with some moderate adjustments for Greek. What Greek really needs is a text from scratch, but I am simply not in a position to undertake that project.

I try not to overplay this project, just keep working away quietly and if all goes well and if I can get the appropriate translation rights, we will hopefully have a beautiful 40 chapter (I plan to write some new ones to cover additional elements of Greek not present in Latin grammar) Greek Orberg sometime in the not too distant future.

Seumas Macdonald

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[Albertus]

Chaire, Seuma,

Your effort is very commendable.  I'd be interested in seeing the result although I imagine it'll take quite some time.  I suppose the chapters that concentrate on verb tenses, for instance, will be relatively straight forward.  There will certainly be chapters that will have to focus on specific Greek features (middle voice? particles? for instance.)  Looking forward to seeing the results.  Have you seen the Assimil Le grec ancien.  It's a very different type of approach, but worth looking at.  (Very expensive also.)

Albertus

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[Seumas Macdonald]

I have seen the Assimil. It seems a little short and not overly well organised in the end.

I am not convinced that middle voice needs any particular attention. Even in the early chapters I introduce so-called deponents as just another verb form. I think you can introduce active/middle/passive fairly organically.

The major restructure needs to come when dealing with three things: the extensive use of participles in Greek (Latin using only present active, perfect passive, and future active), working through Greek's tense-aspect system (since it seems to me that the Greek aorist maps better to the Latin perfect, generally, and the Greek perfect needs to be done separately), and thirdly the optative (which I realise isn't really a feature of much Koine greek, but I am writing a kind of Koine + version)

I just moved continents again so things are a little disorganised but I will send you one of my sample chapters.

Seumas

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[Mark Lightman]

>>> Is this then a lost cause for Greek?>>>

No, I don't think it is.  If one person learns to read Ancient Greek better by including writing, speaking, and listening, instead of just reading and reading about it, then the cause is justified.  Nobody will ever convince me that speaking Ancient Greek did not improve my reading fluency.  That's one.

It's an open question, I guess, how much it improves it.  It is an open question why so few Greek learners choose to speak it.  It is an open question whether some individuals get more out of speaking it than others.

I'm less frustrated and more optimistic than you because I have seen tangible changes over the years.  A few years ago, no conversational Ancient Greek audio and video existed.  There is still less of it than I would want, but every day more is being produced, and you cannot argue with that.  A few years ago you could count the number of Greek teachers who used living language methods on one hand, even if you had lost a few fingers in a gardening accident.  Since then, the number has increased.  I'm not sure what the number is, but as long as it goes up each year, I am down with that.

I actually think that Greek pedagogy is one of the few things on this planet that seems to be getting better, not worse.  Seamus' Greek Orberg project is just one example of this.   

I wrote a song a while ago called "All we are saying, is give speech a chance."  It is sung to the tune of John Lennon's "All we are saying, is give peace a chance."  It's lyrics are in Ancient Greek.  μόνον λαλοῦμεν, λαλῶμεν ἡμεῖς.  For the cause to live on, it only takes a few people willing to open their mouths and speak (or sing) Ancient Greek.  Once that happened, we had already won.

Now, peace, on that other hand, that MIGHT be a lost cause.

              

Μᾶρκος

[albert a requejo]

gratias tibi ago, Seumas atque avide exspecto capitulum tuum graece convertum.  ignosce mi latine scribenti, sed graece non possum nisi prave.  non quaesivi an latine loqueris sed, si libellum Orbergis legisti demum credo te valde loqui.  vale, amice, atque bene vertat tibi graece colenti.

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[Alanus Aquilinus]

Yes and no. There's not a true Ørberg edition available. The Italian edition of Athenaze, however, is the closest thing currently available and does a (as far as I'm concerned) really good job. It's available from the Accademia Vivarium Novum publishing house in two volumes, plus accompanying exercise volumes for the both texts and even further exercises for the first volume. There are also at least two readers aligned with the texts already available, and they're working on Ørberg-ized editions of Homer, Herodotus, etc. I've used both the American and Italian editions of Athenaze and they're lightyears apart. (The Italian series is literally double the size of the American texts.) I strongly recommend taking a look at this text if you don't mind that some of the explanations are in Italian.

[Cicero72]

It's been 2 years have you finished it yet. For the love of God can you send it to me? Even if it is incomplete and filled with errors. It's like a barren wasteland with nothing but grammar- translate methods out here. I swear to God if you can give me something that wonderful I will name all the my children after you. Please, anything...

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[Seumas Macdonald]

2 years in which I didn't teach Greek, wrote a PhD, had a baby, failed to secure any copyrights to a direct Greek translation, and became convinced that a true Greek Ørberg needs a lot more 'ground-up' restructuring...

You probably want to look at Alexandros, it might satisfy your craving.

But I've sent you what I had done privately.

Seumas

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[Marcus Tullius Cicero]

May I ask, what do you mean by 'failed to secure a copyright'? I have actually been tinkering around with a similar, book but for German.

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[Seumas Macdonald]

sure. my Ørberg text isn't an Ørberg-style book for Greek, it's an almost direct translation from Familia Romana. Which I started as an experiement. Anyway, translations count as derivative works and are covered by copyright.

A ground-up Ørberg-style book wouldn't have these problems, and would also avoid the problem of trying to simply map Greek onto Latin. Let me tell you, "via cassia non tam longa quam via aappia" doesn't have an easy Greek cognate construction!

I still think such a text would be useful, but I'm not in a position to author it at present (and I don't think it would be the be-all and end-all of current discussions about Greek pedagogy)

Seumas

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[albert a requejo]

The Miraglia/Borri modification of Athenaze is what I have found closer to Orberg.  The readings are really well developed by bringing in implicit grammar instruction, as opposed to the original Athenaze with its traditional short passages.

If you succeed with an all-Greek Orbergian Greek method you'll be Hercules redivivus.

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[Seumas Macdonald]

I continually hear good things about the Miraglia/Borri redux of Athenaze, but of course getting it from Italy is a real pain for most of us!

Also, and here the situation mirrors my own, precisely because it's a version of Athenaze, they can't sell it outside Italy either. So it will never achieve wide distribution. I kind of think that was a regretful path for them to go down in the first place.

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[albert a requejo]

True. I got a copy while at one of Miraglia's courses in Spain.

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[albert a requejo]

Now, how did you change the setting? E.g. what place did you choose instead of Tusculum?

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[Marcus Tullius Cicero]

Berlin. But I've only done a little bit and was wondering if I should translate lingua latina or if I should take the hard route and craft my own story.

[Seumas Macdonald]

I think the question was directed at me. I was attempting to re-situate the story in Antioch in an Imperial age, but my conversion was only every partial.

Cicero, there are direct method books for modern languages which came out of the same institute that Ørberg originally worked in back in the 50 or 60s (? I think) - the Nature method Institutes. though I haven't seen a German text from there.

Of course, 60s German and 2017 German are slightly different creatures! 

On Wed, Mar 29, 2017 at 8:56 AM, Marcus Tullius Cicero <cicerosr...@gmail.com> wrote:

Berlin. But I've only done a little bit and was wondering if I should translate lingua latina or if I should take the hard route and craft my own story.

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[albert a requejo]

The title 'Athenaze' does the job.  Hard to beat.  Berlin?  Don't tell a Greek!  You might as well have an Aggele Merkelos instead of Aemilia and get mobbed at once.

On Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 3:01 PM, Seumas Macdonald <seumas...@gmail.com> wrote:

I think the question was directed at me. I was attempting to re-situate the story in Antioch in an Imperial age, but my conversion was only every partial.

Cicero, there are direct method books for modern languages which came out of the same institute that Ørberg originally worked in back in the 50 or 60s (? I think) - the Nature method Institutes. though I haven't seen a German text from there.

Of course, 60s German and 2017 German are slightly different creatures! 

On Wed, Mar 29, 2017 at 8:56 AM, Marcus Tullius Cicero <cicerosr...@gmail.com> wrote:

Berlin. But I've only done a little bit and was wondering if I should translate lingua latina or if I should take the hard route and craft my own story.

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[albert a requejo]

Antioch would be a better choice, but then you want to hide it from the Turks.  You're getting into politically delicate territory.

On Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 3:05 PM, albert a requejo <alberto...@gmail.com> wrote:

The title 'Athenaze' does the job.  Hard to beat.  Berlin?  Don't tell a Greek!  You might as well have an Aggele Merkelos instead of Aemilia and get mobbed at once.

On Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 3:01 PM, Seumas Macdonald <seumas...@gmail.com> wrote:

I think the question was directed at me. I was attempting to re-situate the story in Antioch in an Imperial age, but my conversion was only every partial.

Cicero, there are direct method books for modern languages which came out of the same institute that Ørberg originally worked in back in the 50 or 60s (? I think) - the Nature method Institutes. though I haven't seen a German text from there.

Of course, 60s German and 2017 German are slightly different creatures! 

On Wed, Mar 29, 2017 at 8:56 AM, Marcus Tullius Cicero <cicerosr...@gmail.com> wrote:

Berlin. But I've only done a little bit and was wondering if I should translate lingua latina or if I should take the hard route and craft my own story.

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[albert a requejo]

I think the best choice would be to translate all the Italian parts in Miraglia's 'Athenaze' into Greek (he translates them from the English 'Athenaze' so that'd be a piece of cake.  I'd 100% would be into a project like that.  What are the legal implications?

[Seumas Macdonald]

Keeping in mind that I am in no way a lawyer, just someone who reads a lot about copyright and related issues (mainly because of deep-seated problems with it), this doesn't solve any problems: a translation (of anything) is a derivative work and so subject to the rights of the original text and its author. 

In the case of the Italian Athenaze, the issue is not so much copyright as licensing (as I understand the issue) - Miraglia et alii obtained permission to modify the Athenaze and distribute their version in Italy. That's about licensing/distribution as much as anything.

If you simply translated the Italian portions of the It. Athenaze, then you've got a text that (a) translates from Miraglia, so is subject to copyright, (b) "is" Athenaze, and so can't be sold outside Italy, and (c) is a copy of Italian Athenaze anyway, so you have no right to it.

This is why, from a legal perspective, a ground-up project would be best - it would be free of all these issues and constitute an entirely new work. 

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[albert a requejo]

Coming up with something comparable to Miraglia's 'Athenaze' only in Greek is going to be a Gargantuan project.  Perhaps a smaller version would be a necessary start.  I don't see why Athens wouldn't be viable.  (Aristophanes could give ideas for sure.)  Or choose a place like Megara, but then you get into the problem of dialects.  It is the Atthenian dialect (a variant of Ionian) which became the standard.

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[Princeton]

Can I request a copy of the work-in-progress too? I am trying to craft my own approach to learning Greek through heavy doses of comprehensible input. The lack of good resources sometimes makes me think I should surrender to Grammar-Translation -- but I don't want to let that happen!

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[David Griffin]

In relation to this discussion, can anyone tell me if the book Alexandros, To Hellenikon Paidion is comparable to Oerberg? Here is a link. https://www.todostuslibros.com/libros/alexandros-to-hellenikon-paidion_978-84-935798-7-6

[albert a requejo]

I have a copy.  I highly recommend it.  In some ways it's better than Orberg.  Lessons are more to the point and progressive.  Readings not as massive.  Very well designed for school teaching.  Grammar is explained in Greek.  So you never talk about imperfect tense (or tempus imperfectum) but of ὁ χρόνος παρατατικός.  It is meant for use in schools so don't expect Smyth's Grammar adapted to 6 year-olds.  I'm not sure all the types of exercises are perfect, but the fact that there are different types of exercises and on-line resources for teachers is highly commendable.

Best.

On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 12:01 PM, David Griffin <davidgr...@gmail.com> wrote:

In relation to this discussion, can anyone tell me if the book Alexandros, To Hellenikon Paidion is comparable to Oerberg? Here is a link. https://www.todostuslibros.com/libros/alexandros-to-hellenikon-paidion_978-84-935798-7-6

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[Σαῦλος]

I wrote a review of Alexandros recently.   It's good.  For those who know Rouse, it is basically Greek Boy at Home- Light.   Thrasymachus has been renamed Alexandros.  Rouse was digested and somewhat simplified (though not enough).

For more details and website links for Alexandros, see the review:

http://tcl.camws.org/sites/default/files/TCL%208.1%20Nitz.pdf