Mirrorgo Mod Apk
Janoc Florez
One reason might be that the mirrorer can save up a lot of time. He can respond quickly to any move that his intuition doesn't scream at, until he has saved up a significant amount of time. At this point he can play the middle game with no disadvantage. -dspivak
It seems to me that you'll be able to keep sente all the time. So far, all of the examples in breaking manego requires some sort of unnatural move (playing at tengen, for example). If I see my opponent doing that, I'll simply ignore him.
On the other hand, if the opponent tries to attack my weak group, he / she would have the same weak group as well, which I simply counterattack. Again, if he / she makes a mistake in defense, I'll simply ignore the move and play elsewhere.
As for tengen, IMHO, the best time to use mirror go is when you're black, THEN play at tengen. There you go, now you can manego LOTS, and be confident that your center is stronger than your opponents.
Now, as to the flaw in your plan, if you play manego as white against me... here's the most obvious breaker: fierce battles in the center, if you're playing white, and have been exclusively playing manego. Or, in fact, in the MOST simplified case, this particular instance.
Basically, ANY fight that is symmetrical, and CONNECTING will result in a win by whoever moved first, I think. Yes, you are equally badly/well off if there are two separate fights/groups, but if there's only ONE... then you WILL lose. (I think)
If you're playing white, then black can just lead the fight to the center. Then tengen is gonna be a sensible move after all, and you will WANT to follow, but can't. Either that or he'll atari you such that you can't capture after he does.
The SECOND flaw in manego is this: If you can't be worse off than your opponent, your opponent can't be worse off than YOU. In other words, the BEST you can hope for by pure manego is a draw game. BUT, black needs to beat komi. White needs to overcome the fact that black will win any fights in the center.
adamzero Dave's point is the best one worth making, but if one "does" want to talk mirrorgo strategy, then it is probably not to Black's advantage to play mirrorgo. Black must overcome komi. With every successive move, the size of the remaining moves is lower, and it is harder to overcome komi. Early in the game, nearly every possible move is worth more than six points, and that is when komi is thus most easily overcome.
Archaic Jason, I think you have a very poor understanding of manego, but nonetheless you point out a lot of basics. However, you shouldn't just dismiss the possibility that it has be an effective counter, and not a weak one. Also, mirror go is not as easy to counter as it seems, I'm not sure if an ordinary complex fight in the middle works that easily, especially since any move you make, the opponent will just respond in the rotational-symmetric direction. That sort of natural approach is definitely recognizable, and might be possible, but try to use a bit of further analysis.
Simply put, instead of basing your thought process on the mere notion that manego and go in general is a fluid, free, and easy-to-understand game without having to analyse specifics before you earn that open-mindedness is just a lack of understanding on a fundamental level.
I see no reason why not! Even if my opponent breaks it, I would think that he'd have to give up more urgent moves to do so, giving me a chance to go for the jugular. Also, he's got to create territory or try to kill my stones, so I don't think he can "waste" moves by doing that.
Answer: The stronger player just needs to capture one of the handicap stones. His moves will all be meaningful, and his stones will have gotten a liberty, while black's moves will have been meaningless. Put this position on a board, and you will see that any talk of mane-go from that point on is out of the question - the position in the two corners is no longer symmetrical, white has gotten a point (prisoner) but black has not, and white can play on the hoshi point at any time and effectively stop mane-go in any form.
Jasonred Hmmm... IMHO, the biggest skill in Manego is knowing when to stop copying. And possibly, how to resume copying. So, the moment my opponent slaps down move 4, I'd have to respond to the invasion. AFTER that, I would possibly attempt to resume manego... maybe. (despite the fact that it's asymetrical...) Trading a corner for a wall so early on seems like the end to me, despite my being a terrible go player (20 plus kyu?) I'd only use mirror go on a stronger opponent to make up for my lack of fuseki knowledge... OBVIOUSLY, you don't use manego to win in-fighting or pushing games!
Imagist: The fact that is an invasion of a moyo makes even a bad move. gives you a chance to make territory by attacking white's invading stone. While is a natural moyo-solidifying move, it still doesn't do much to prevent white's attachment at , and meanwhile white creates a stronghold from which she can launch further attacks. I would guess that a slow play like this already loses the advantage of one of your handicap stones, maybe even 2.
DaveSigaty: Let's see. You have found a stronger player friendly enough and patient enough to play you with 9 stones and a reverse komi. Your strategy is then to play mirror Go. How many moves into the game do you think it will be when your opponent invites you to leave? ;-) When they do, will you count it a success?
Of course mirror Go has place in competitions (like any legal strategy). But what possible point does it have in amateur play? You bring no originality (the approach has been known for centuries). There is no intellectual content unless you believe that it is ultimately unsuccessful and therefore you as the mirroring player must find just the right point to break the symmetry in order to win (actually true in high-level play but probably not for a lot of amateurs). So why bother?
Jasonred True. It's pretty much socially unacceptable. And pretty moronic, as the whole idea of playing stronger players is to learn, and manego doesn't do this. (much... I guess maybe you could learn a little about shape?)
Frankly though, I'd say manego's ONLY use is in ruthless competitions. (other than learning when to break off manego itself) So, I was just giving an example of when I thought that manego would clinch a victory, or be really useful. That was an extreme example anyhow, umm... say you're playing for money, and someone gives you a 2 stone and reverse komi handicap? (Make sure you can fight better than your opponent before trying manego in this situation...)
Having played mirror go a few times against Igowin, I thought I learnt a fair bit. It teaches you to tenuki (every play you make in mirror go is tenuki, unless someone has set up a mirror breaker). It also teaches you to apply mutual damage. So, quite educational.
(Sebastian:) How about games against someone one stone below? This does not give handicap, but gyaku komi. Here's an example of a game I just played on KGS. I lost it with 0.5 points. Any hints how I could have prevented this? (BTW, the opponent, MartinX, has quite a proportion of unfinished games. Maybe those were similar games where his opponents didn't know what else to to but escape. Or he's an escaper himself. I'm not sure who broke off those games. Is there a way to tell this on KGS?)
20-23 to enclose the tengen. After this, the tengen gives no longer any advantage. 24-27 to disconnect the central group from its neigbours. Now try to kill the black central group without defending your own central group.
I wonder what I can learn from his play. In particular, my problem in the game with MartinX was that I did not realize that he was playing mirror go till move 19. Could I still have saved it at that time?
As far as I can see, B is still likely to lose here, due to the additional idle stone in the center, and W can connect above. However, this would not have been an immediate "must resign" to you, I guess.
Mirror Go got my attention because of a remark of Bill Spight in 1997. He said that modern high komi - as for example in Ing rules - are an incentive to play Mane Go as White: "... just to lower the temperature." After that episode I started to use mirror Go in one of my games as White in each and every tournament, but playing ordinarily in all other games. To state the conclusion first: I do not regret this decision, and my experience with this experiment up to date is very positive.
First of all, mirror Go slows me down. At every move I have to check if either Black can play Tengen with devastating effect now or in the near future, or if I can depart from mirroring with an advantage for White. This sort of thinking is completely different than what's going on in ordinary games, but it is nevertheless quite challenging.
As I have come to get accustomed to mirror Go, it is now slightly more likely that Black plays Tengen before White departs. And more often than not my black opponents lose their nerve before I do so, resulting in a play at Tengen before it is effective or in a misplaced stone somewhere else so that White can depart advantageously. Mirror Go is thus quite an effective battle strategy for me.
Besides, mirror Go games are also very interesting after the mirror phase has ended, which ever way. Sometimes it's really hard to switch back to "normal mode" and analyze the position in the usual manner. Obviously, most of the time the game will be very close, sometimes with many open ends and urgent plays all over the board. In this phase I get the opportunity to play types of positions I never get in in an ordinary game. I have to continue with stones and josekis I would never have played myself. All sorts of unusual and unexpected stuff happen in mirror Go games. This broadens my Go-horizon quite a bit.
In most games the mirror phase is rather short anyway. Very rarely does it last more than 20 stones. Then, most of the time the mirror phase ended with a black stone on Tengen and two huge moyos for both players. This is another type of game I practically never play myself, as I am extremely territory oriented.
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