George Washington on Christianity
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Jon
Aug 5, 2008, 1:41:21 PM8/5/08
to American Heritage
Friends,
I'm going to reproduce much of my post with the above title because it
has much EVIDENCE that has been disputed of late re the Founders'
differing understanding of "Christianity," and whether what they
termed "Christianity" even merits that label.
http://americancreation.blogspot.com/2008/07/george-washington-on-christianity.html
George Washington was pro-Christian. He had a lot of positive things
to say about the Christian religion. However, it is a non-sequitur to
conclude, therefore, he was an orthodox Trinitarian Christian.
Orthodox Trinitarian Christianity is an extremely narrow creed; it
believes Jesus the only way to God and other religions false. Nothing
in Washington's praise for the Christian religion suggests he believed
in this narrow form of Christianity. To the contrary, the best
evidence shows Washington, if he can be termed Christian at all, held
to a liberal Protestant theology in line with what the other key
Founders -- J. Adams, Jefferson, Madison, and Franklin -- believed.
All were pro-Christianity because they were "pro-religion" in general.
They held the purpose of "religion" or "Christianity" was to make men
moral (not necessarily to be saved through Christ's blood atonement).
Works were more important than faith for salvation. The test of
"sound" religion was that it in fact made men moral. As such if the
"ends" (morality) were achieved, the means (which religion you are)
really didn't matter. But Christianity had an edge over other world
religions, not because of Jesus' exclusive claim to God or His status
as second person in the Trinity, but because He was the greatest moral
teacher. Yet, they still saw a place at the table of "sound religion"
for virtually all of the world's religions as valid ways to God. Their
creed, I believe, was key in making America a haven for non-Christian
religions.
Further, theirs was a form of hyper-Arminianism that was theologically
unitarian and universalist....This is why if orthodox Trinitarian
Christians truly understood what Washington and the other key Founders
believed they'd either call it "heresy" or, like Mormonism, "not
Christianity." That's why orthodox Christian scholar of America's
Founding, Dr. Gregg Frazer, terms their belief system "theistic
rationalism," not "Christianity."
First quotations from other key Founders who are not George
Washington. Then, Washington's:
"My fundamental principle would be the reverse of Calvin's, that we
are to be saved by our good works which are within our power, and not
by our faith which is not within our power."
-- Thomas Jefferson to Thomas B. Parker, May 15, 1819.
"No point of Faith is so plain, as that Morality is our Duty; for all
Sides agree in that. A virtuous Heretick shall be saved before a
wicked Christian."
-- Benjamin Franklin, "Dialogue between Two Presbyterians," April 10,
1735.
"...the design of Christianity was not to make men good Riddle Solvers
or good mystery mongers, but good men, good magestrates and good
Subjects...."
-- John Adams, Dairy, Feb. 18, 1756
"Faith is recommended as a Means of producing Morality: Our Saviour
was a Teacher of Morality or Virtue, and they that were deficient and
desired to be taught, ought first to believe in him as an able and
faithful Teacher. Thus Faith would be a Means of producing Morality,
and Morality of Salvation. But that from such Faith alone Salvation
may be expected, appears to me to be neither a Christian Doctrine nor
a reasonable one....Morality or Virtue is the End, Faith only a Means
to obtain that End: And if the End be obtained, it is no matter by
what Means."
-- Benjamin Franklin, "Dialogue between Two Presbyterians," April 10,
1735.
"Here is my Creed: I believe in one God, Creator of the Universe. That
He governs it by his Providence. That he ought to be worshipped. That
the most acceptable Service we can render to him, is doing Good to his
other Children. That the Soul of Man is immortal, and will be treated
with Justice in another Life respecting its Conduct in this. These I
take to be the fundamental Principles of all sound Religion, and I
regard them as you do, in whatever Sect I meet with them."
-- Benjamin Franklin to Ezra Stiles, March 9. 1790.
"Every religion consists of moral precepts, and of dogmas. In the
first they all agree. All forbid us to murder, steal, plunder, bear
false witness &ca. and these are the articles necessary for the
preservation of order, justice, and happiness in society. In their
particular dogmas all differ; no two professing the same. These
respect vestments, ceremonies, physical opinions, and metaphysical
speculations, totally unconnected with morality, and unimportant to
the legitimate objects of society. Yet these are the questions on
which have hung the bitter schisms of Nazarenes, Socinians, Arians,
Athanasians in former times, and now of Trinitarians, Unitarians,
Catholics, Lutherans, Calvinists, Methodists, Baptists, Quakers &c.
Among the Mahometans we are told that thousands fell victims to the
dispute whether the first or second toe of Mahomet was longest; and
what blood, how many human lives have the words 'this do in
remembrance of me' cost the Christian world!...We see good men in all
religions, and as many in one as another. It is then a matter of
principle with me to avoid disturbing the tranquility of others by the
expression of any opinion on the [unimportant points] innocent
questions on which we schismatize, and think it enough to hold fast to
those moral precepts which are of the essence of Christianity, and of
all other religions."
-- Thomas Jefferson to James Fishback, Sept. 27, 1809
"I believe with Justin Martyr, that all good men are Christians, and I
believe there have been, and are, good men in all nations, sincere and
conscientious."
-- John Adams to Samuel Miller, July 8, 1820.
Now go and read every single time Washington praises the Christian
religion and see that it is always in the context of equating
Christianity with mere morality not orthodox Christian doctrine. The
pietists use the following as "proof quotes" to show that Washington
wasn't a Deist, therefore he was a "Christian." But what they actually
show is that Washington was a "Christian" in the same way that J.
Adams, Jefferson and Franklin were "Christians." My emphasis or
italics will be on those parts of Washington's words that illustrate
my contention.
“To the distinguished CHARACTER of Patriot, it should be our highest
Glory to add the more distinguished CHARACTER of Christian. The signal
Instances of providential Goodness which we have experienced and which
have now almost crowned our labours with complete Success, demand from
us in a peculiar manner the warmest returns of Gratitude and Piety to
the Supreme Author of all Good [my emphasis]."
-- George Washington, General Orders, Saturday, May 2, 1778.
"While all men within our territories are protected in worshipping the
Deity according to the dictates of their consciences; it is rationally
to be expected from them in return, that they will be emulous of
evincing the sanctity of their professions by the innocence of their
lives and the beneficence of their actions; for no man, who is
profligate in his MORALS, or a bad member of the civil community, can
possibly be a true Christian, or a credit to his OWN RELIGIOUS SOCIETY
[my emphasis].
"I desire you to accept my acknowledgments for your laudable
endeavours to render men sober, honest, and GOOD CITIZENS, and the
obedient subjects of a lawful government [my emphasis]."
-- George Washington, Letter to General Assembly of Presbyterian
Churches, May 1789.
"Without reverberating the arguments in support of the humane and
benevolent intention of Lady Huntington to christianize and reduce to
a state of CIVILIZATION the Savage tribes within the limits of the
American States, or discanting upon the advantages which the Union may
derive from the Emigration which is blended with, and becomes part of
the plan, I highly approve of them,...[my emphasis]."
-- George Washington To SIR JAMES JAY, January 25, 1785.
"In the meantime, it will be a desirable thing for the protection of
the Union to co-operate, as far as circumstances may conveniently
admit, with the disinterested endeavours of your Society to CIVILIZE
and Christianize the Savages of the Wilderness [my emphasis]."
-- George Washington to The Society of the United Brethren for
Propagating the Gospel among the Heathen, July, 1789.
Finally, keep in mind that Washington never spoke in orthodox
Trinitarian language, but used generic philosophical titles for God.
Never said "Father, Son, Holy Spirit," never used the word
"Redeemer"...systematically avoided discussing Jesus by name or
example as though he didn't care about or had no personal relationship
with Jesus, and systematically avoided communion in his Church to
which he nominally belonged.
In short if you look at how Washington approached Christianity, it was
never as though Christianity were the only way to God or he believed
in orthodox doctrines, but always in the context of seeking to extract
something "useful" from the Christian religion. To GW, Religion =
supportive of morality = supportive of republican self governance. As
Franklin put it if the ends are achieved (morality that fosters self
governance) the means (which religion you are) don't matter. To
orthodox Christians, on the other hand, Christianity = the only way to
God thru Christ's blood atonement.
I'm going to reproduce much of my post with the above title because it
has much EVIDENCE that has been disputed of late re the Founders'
differing understanding of "Christianity," and whether what they
termed "Christianity" even merits that label.
http://americancreation.blogspot.com/2008/07/george-washington-on-christianity.html
George Washington was pro-Christian. He had a lot of positive things
to say about the Christian religion. However, it is a non-sequitur to
conclude, therefore, he was an orthodox Trinitarian Christian.
Orthodox Trinitarian Christianity is an extremely narrow creed; it
believes Jesus the only way to God and other religions false. Nothing
in Washington's praise for the Christian religion suggests he believed
in this narrow form of Christianity. To the contrary, the best
evidence shows Washington, if he can be termed Christian at all, held
to a liberal Protestant theology in line with what the other key
Founders -- J. Adams, Jefferson, Madison, and Franklin -- believed.
All were pro-Christianity because they were "pro-religion" in general.
They held the purpose of "religion" or "Christianity" was to make men
moral (not necessarily to be saved through Christ's blood atonement).
Works were more important than faith for salvation. The test of
"sound" religion was that it in fact made men moral. As such if the
"ends" (morality) were achieved, the means (which religion you are)
really didn't matter. But Christianity had an edge over other world
religions, not because of Jesus' exclusive claim to God or His status
as second person in the Trinity, but because He was the greatest moral
teacher. Yet, they still saw a place at the table of "sound religion"
for virtually all of the world's religions as valid ways to God. Their
creed, I believe, was key in making America a haven for non-Christian
religions.
Further, theirs was a form of hyper-Arminianism that was theologically
unitarian and universalist....This is why if orthodox Trinitarian
Christians truly understood what Washington and the other key Founders
believed they'd either call it "heresy" or, like Mormonism, "not
Christianity." That's why orthodox Christian scholar of America's
Founding, Dr. Gregg Frazer, terms their belief system "theistic
rationalism," not "Christianity."
First quotations from other key Founders who are not George
Washington. Then, Washington's:
"My fundamental principle would be the reverse of Calvin's, that we
are to be saved by our good works which are within our power, and not
by our faith which is not within our power."
-- Thomas Jefferson to Thomas B. Parker, May 15, 1819.
"No point of Faith is so plain, as that Morality is our Duty; for all
Sides agree in that. A virtuous Heretick shall be saved before a
wicked Christian."
-- Benjamin Franklin, "Dialogue between Two Presbyterians," April 10,
1735.
"...the design of Christianity was not to make men good Riddle Solvers
or good mystery mongers, but good men, good magestrates and good
Subjects...."
-- John Adams, Dairy, Feb. 18, 1756
"Faith is recommended as a Means of producing Morality: Our Saviour
was a Teacher of Morality or Virtue, and they that were deficient and
desired to be taught, ought first to believe in him as an able and
faithful Teacher. Thus Faith would be a Means of producing Morality,
and Morality of Salvation. But that from such Faith alone Salvation
may be expected, appears to me to be neither a Christian Doctrine nor
a reasonable one....Morality or Virtue is the End, Faith only a Means
to obtain that End: And if the End be obtained, it is no matter by
what Means."
-- Benjamin Franklin, "Dialogue between Two Presbyterians," April 10,
1735.
"Here is my Creed: I believe in one God, Creator of the Universe. That
He governs it by his Providence. That he ought to be worshipped. That
the most acceptable Service we can render to him, is doing Good to his
other Children. That the Soul of Man is immortal, and will be treated
with Justice in another Life respecting its Conduct in this. These I
take to be the fundamental Principles of all sound Religion, and I
regard them as you do, in whatever Sect I meet with them."
-- Benjamin Franklin to Ezra Stiles, March 9. 1790.
"Every religion consists of moral precepts, and of dogmas. In the
first they all agree. All forbid us to murder, steal, plunder, bear
false witness &ca. and these are the articles necessary for the
preservation of order, justice, and happiness in society. In their
particular dogmas all differ; no two professing the same. These
respect vestments, ceremonies, physical opinions, and metaphysical
speculations, totally unconnected with morality, and unimportant to
the legitimate objects of society. Yet these are the questions on
which have hung the bitter schisms of Nazarenes, Socinians, Arians,
Athanasians in former times, and now of Trinitarians, Unitarians,
Catholics, Lutherans, Calvinists, Methodists, Baptists, Quakers &c.
Among the Mahometans we are told that thousands fell victims to the
dispute whether the first or second toe of Mahomet was longest; and
what blood, how many human lives have the words 'this do in
remembrance of me' cost the Christian world!...We see good men in all
religions, and as many in one as another. It is then a matter of
principle with me to avoid disturbing the tranquility of others by the
expression of any opinion on the [unimportant points] innocent
questions on which we schismatize, and think it enough to hold fast to
those moral precepts which are of the essence of Christianity, and of
all other religions."
-- Thomas Jefferson to James Fishback, Sept. 27, 1809
"I believe with Justin Martyr, that all good men are Christians, and I
believe there have been, and are, good men in all nations, sincere and
conscientious."
-- John Adams to Samuel Miller, July 8, 1820.
Now go and read every single time Washington praises the Christian
religion and see that it is always in the context of equating
Christianity with mere morality not orthodox Christian doctrine. The
pietists use the following as "proof quotes" to show that Washington
wasn't a Deist, therefore he was a "Christian." But what they actually
show is that Washington was a "Christian" in the same way that J.
Adams, Jefferson and Franklin were "Christians." My emphasis or
italics will be on those parts of Washington's words that illustrate
my contention.
“To the distinguished CHARACTER of Patriot, it should be our highest
Glory to add the more distinguished CHARACTER of Christian. The signal
Instances of providential Goodness which we have experienced and which
have now almost crowned our labours with complete Success, demand from
us in a peculiar manner the warmest returns of Gratitude and Piety to
the Supreme Author of all Good [my emphasis]."
-- George Washington, General Orders, Saturday, May 2, 1778.
"While all men within our territories are protected in worshipping the
Deity according to the dictates of their consciences; it is rationally
to be expected from them in return, that they will be emulous of
evincing the sanctity of their professions by the innocence of their
lives and the beneficence of their actions; for no man, who is
profligate in his MORALS, or a bad member of the civil community, can
possibly be a true Christian, or a credit to his OWN RELIGIOUS SOCIETY
[my emphasis].
"I desire you to accept my acknowledgments for your laudable
endeavours to render men sober, honest, and GOOD CITIZENS, and the
obedient subjects of a lawful government [my emphasis]."
-- George Washington, Letter to General Assembly of Presbyterian
Churches, May 1789.
"Without reverberating the arguments in support of the humane and
benevolent intention of Lady Huntington to christianize and reduce to
a state of CIVILIZATION the Savage tribes within the limits of the
American States, or discanting upon the advantages which the Union may
derive from the Emigration which is blended with, and becomes part of
the plan, I highly approve of them,...[my emphasis]."
-- George Washington To SIR JAMES JAY, January 25, 1785.
"In the meantime, it will be a desirable thing for the protection of
the Union to co-operate, as far as circumstances may conveniently
admit, with the disinterested endeavours of your Society to CIVILIZE
and Christianize the Savages of the Wilderness [my emphasis]."
-- George Washington to The Society of the United Brethren for
Propagating the Gospel among the Heathen, July, 1789.
Finally, keep in mind that Washington never spoke in orthodox
Trinitarian language, but used generic philosophical titles for God.
Never said "Father, Son, Holy Spirit," never used the word
"Redeemer"...systematically avoided discussing Jesus by name or
example as though he didn't care about or had no personal relationship
with Jesus, and systematically avoided communion in his Church to
which he nominally belonged.
In short if you look at how Washington approached Christianity, it was
never as though Christianity were the only way to God or he believed
in orthodox doctrines, but always in the context of seeking to extract
something "useful" from the Christian religion. To GW, Religion =
supportive of morality = supportive of republican self governance. As
Franklin put it if the ends are achieved (morality that fosters self
governance) the means (which religion you are) don't matter. To
orthodox Christians, on the other hand, Christianity = the only way to
God thru Christ's blood atonement.
NVSv...@gmail.com
Aug 6, 2008, 10:14:39 AM8/6/08
to American Heritage
So, now that I've got your book of quotations, I think it's fair that
you should get my book, if you didn't already get it.
It's called Religious Maxims of George Washington. by John Frederick
Schroeder. You can get the full book of the 4 sections, but the
religious section would suffice.
Make sure it's the original version, NOT the Revision version that
took out a lot of things.
On Aug 5, 1:41 pm, Jon <rowjonat...@aol.com> wrote:
> Friends,
>
> I'm going to reproduce much of my post with the above title because it
> has much EVIDENCE that has been disputed of late re the Founders'
> differing understanding of "Christianity," and whether what they
> termed "Christianity" even merits that label.
>
> http://americancreation.blogspot.com/2008/07/george-washington-on-chr...
you should get my book, if you didn't already get it.
It's called Religious Maxims of George Washington. by John Frederick
Schroeder. You can get the full book of the 4 sections, but the
religious section would suffice.
Make sure it's the original version, NOT the Revision version that
took out a lot of things.
On Aug 5, 1:41 pm, Jon <rowjonat...@aol.com> wrote:
> Friends,
>
> I'm going to reproduce much of my post with the above title because it
> has much EVIDENCE that has been disputed of late re the Founders'
> differing understanding of "Christianity," and whether what they
> termed "Christianity" even merits that label.
>
Jon
Aug 6, 2008, 1:03:26 PM8/6/08
to American Heritage
I just downloaded it from google books.
> ...
>
> read more »
>
> read more »
Jon
Aug 6, 2008, 2:36:27 PM8/6/08
to American Heritage
Let me also note there is another "Vic" on YouTube who I think would
be interested in joining this thread. Check him out:
http://www.youtube.com/user/blessedvic
> ...
>
> read more »
be interested in joining this thread. Check him out:
http://www.youtube.com/user/blessedvic
>
> read more »
Tigerlilly66
Aug 7, 2008, 11:34:15 PM8/7/08
to American Heritage
While I find Jon's last production to be thorough and well-documented,
I really see nothing to make me revise my previously-stated
observations of how this discussion has progressed. Thusly, I
question whether offering up MY list of quotes and reasons why I feel
they clearly point to an evangelical Christian world view in the vast
majority of the FF's would accomplish anything. In the meantime, I
wish each of you well. The day will soon come when we'll see things
with crystal clarity...Maranatha.
TL66
On Aug 5, 11:41 am, Jon <rowjonat...@aol.com> wrote:
> Friends,
>
> I'm going to reproduce much of my post with the above title because it
> has much EVIDENCE that has been disputed of late re the Founders'
> differing understanding of "Christianity," and whether what they
> termed "Christianity" even merits that label.
>
> http://americancreation.blogspot.com/2008/07/george-washington-on-chr...
I really see nothing to make me revise my previously-stated
observations of how this discussion has progressed. Thusly, I
question whether offering up MY list of quotes and reasons why I feel
they clearly point to an evangelical Christian world view in the vast
majority of the FF's would accomplish anything. In the meantime, I
wish each of you well. The day will soon come when we'll see things
with crystal clarity...Maranatha.
TL66
On Aug 5, 11:41 am, Jon <rowjonat...@aol.com> wrote:
> Friends,
>
> I'm going to reproduce much of my post with the above title because it
> has much EVIDENCE that has been disputed of late re the Founders'
> differing understanding of "Christianity," and whether what they
> termed "Christianity" even merits that label.
>
NVSv...@gmail.com
Aug 8, 2008, 10:35:57 AM8/8/08
to American Heritage
Hey TL.
Please don't leave without offering your list of quotes. If it's on
George Washington, please post it here. If it's on "evangelical
Christian world view in the vast majority of the FF's", please post it
in a new topic or appropriate place (to keep things organized).
I can take the info, and argue it on your behalf.
> ...
>
> read more »
Please don't leave without offering your list of quotes. If it's on
George Washington, please post it here. If it's on "evangelical
Christian world view in the vast majority of the FF's", please post it
in a new topic or appropriate place (to keep things organized).
I can take the info, and argue it on your behalf.
>
> read more »
NVSv...@gmail.com
Aug 8, 2008, 10:36:35 AM8/8/08
to American Heritage
Clever. Too bad, Google books doesn't have your book in full view.
> ...
>
> read more »
>
> read more »
NVSv...@gmail.com
Aug 8, 2008, 10:36:57 AM8/8/08
to American Heritage
He seems pretty cool. Did you invite him in?
> ...
>
> read more »
>
> read more »
Jon
Aug 8, 2008, 11:31:57 AM8/8/08
to American Heritage
No since I'm not the administrator I thought you might give him the
invite.
> ...
>
> read more »
invite.
>
> read more »
NVSv...@gmail.com
Aug 8, 2008, 3:28:42 PM8/8/08
to American Heritage
Ok. I'll invite him. Though, I believe as a member in Google Groups,
you can easily do that too.
> ...
>
> read more »
you can easily do that too.
>
> read more »
Jon
Aug 8, 2008, 4:07:37 PM8/8/08
to American Heritage
Cool. If TL leaves he'll be a good replacement; he is sympathetic to
the "Christian America" side.
> ...
>
> read more »
the "Christian America" side.
>
> read more »
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