Altair-Duino 2.0

[Chris Davis]

I will soon have the last of the version 1.5.3 kits available, but some of you might want to wait.  I am working on version 2.0 of the Altair-Duino.  I figured I'd post what's going on so you can make suggestions or point out any errors I've missed.

The main reason for the change is the addition of a pin header for David's new I/O backplane (henceforth known as the "Hansel Bus"!)  Along with adding this 26 pin header, I want to incorporate the VT100 emulator into the backplane.  I'm not planning on producing the I/O cards, I will leave that up to the hobbyist to do, but at least my kit can provide a place to plug them in.  Or they could buy a standard kit and simply connect David's backplane to the pin header.

One question I have - is there a reason the current backplane has room for only four cards?  Is that because at that time there were only four expansion cards, or is that a limitation of the architecture?  Since I'm planning on incorporating the backplane into the VT100 emulator, I could increase the number of connections.

[da...@hansels.net]

My main reason for the 4-slot limit was (as you guessed) that I didn't have that many cards at that point and also keeping the cost of fabricating the PCB low.

One thing to keep in mind is the power supply. The card that are based on original chips  can draw significant power on the 5V line (e.g. the parallel card can - if I remember correctly - draw more than 100mA).  Whatever you use to supply the 5V needs to be capable of supplying power for all cards.

David

[Walt Perko]

Hi, 

I went with making a 6-Slot back plane so that I had room for two serial boards, one parallel board, one ACR board, one SPO-256-AL2 board and the LED display board.  

As there are other opportunities for newer boards, I'd say fill the box with as many slots that will fit, but maybe space them a bit further apart, maybe another 5mm, than the original 4-Slot back plane.  

[Walt Perko]

Hi, 

I was going to say;  

Another idea is maybe add a jumper on the front panel to flip power for either an Altair 8800 or Altair 8800b switch.  One front panel board for both computers.  

Looking at the enlarged image, I see you already did that!  Good job!  

[Charley Jones]

Sounds like a gap is opening where someone could collect and provide the expansion cards.  What an amazing homage to the original Altair.  Going back to actual expansion cards. 

For me, one fix that I would enjoy would be that the power switch should work the same either on wall power or usb power.  Perhaps jumper that if someone wants it always on, but I think the switch should always work. 

Sent from my iPhone 12pm!

Charley Jones, PMP

On Jun 21, 2022, at 8:13 AM, Walt Perko <r4r...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi, 

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[Tom Wilson]

For me, one fix that I would enjoy would be that the power switch should work the same either on wall power or usb power.  Perhaps jumper that if someone wants it always on, but I think the switch should always work. 

We've established that switched USB hubs and USB power blockers work for this scenario. By using a power blocker, you can still use USB for data, but use the 9VDC adapter for power. It shouldn't be too hard to design a USB power blocker directly into the Altairduino mainboard or the terminal and I/O boards. It just means adding an A and B ports with only the data and ground lines wired across. 

Tom Wilson
wils...@gmail.com
(619)940-6311 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/altair-duino/36708969-EE8B-437E-86A1-2D50A70D66A6%40gmail.com.

[Tom Wilson]

Just looking at the layout of this board, Chris... I really like it. The reduced part count will make assembly much easier, and integrating a breakout for the I/O board is also a fantastic step forward. 

So based on the fact that you have jumpers for B Mode operation, are you planning on offering B faceplates as a standard option in the future?

Tom Wilson
wils...@gmail.com
(619)940-6311 

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[Chris Davis]

I would if I could find a place to print the front panels.  I'm doing it myself now.  Each panel has to go through the UV printer twice and takes a total of 45 minutes.  For now it might just be a limited time option you can select.

[Chris Davis]

Does anyone have a source for a micro USB female to male power blocker?  I could link that as an option on the website.

[Chris Davis]

Or you could just peel back some of the insulation on the USB extension, clip the red wire, and add a switch if you want to get fancy.

[Jay Falck - GMail]

That would be the hacker way to do it. 😊

 

From: altair...@googlegroups.com <altair...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Chris Davis
Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2022 12:34 PM
To: Altair-Duino <altair...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Altair-Duino 2.0

 

Or you could just peel back some of the insulation on the USB extension, clip the red wire, and add a switch if you want to get fancy.

On Tuesday, June 21, 2022 at 12:31:00 PM UTC-5 Chris Davis wrote:

Does anyone have a source for a micro USB female to male power blocker?  I could link that as an option on the website.

 

On Tuesday, June 21, 2022 at 12:28:13 PM UTC-5 Chris Davis wrote:

I would if I could find a place to print the front panels.  I'm doing it myself now.  Each panel has to go through the UV printer twice and takes a total of 45 minutes.  For now it might just be a limited time option you can select.

 

On Tuesday, June 21, 2022 at 12:23:32 PM UTC-5 wils...@gmail.com wrote:

Just looking at the layout of this board, Chris... I really like it. The reduced part count will make assembly much easier, and integrating a breakout for the I/O board is also a fantastic step forward. 

 

So based on the fact that you have jumpers for B Mode operation, are you planning on offering B faceplates as a standard option in the future?

 

Tom Wilson
wils...@gmail.com
(619)940-6311 

 

 

On Tue, Jun 21, 2022 at 7:48 AM Chris Davis <famousd...@gmail.com> wrote:

I will soon have the last of the version 1.5.3 kits available, but some of you might want to wait.  I am working on version 2.0 of the Altair-Duino.  I figured I'd post what's going on so you can make suggestions or point out any errors I've missed.

The main reason for the change is the addition of a pin header for David's new I/O backplane (henceforth known as the "Hansel Bus"!)  Along with adding this 26 pin header, I want to incorporate the VT100 emulator into the backplane.  I'm not planning on producing the I/O cards, I will leave that up to the hobbyist to do, but at least my kit can provide a place to plug them in.  Or they could buy a standard kit and simply connect David's backplane to the pin header.

 

One question I have - is there a reason the current backplane has room for only four cards?  Is that because at that time there were only four expansion cards, or is that a limitation of the architecture?  Since I'm planning on incorporating the backplane into the VT100 emulator, I could increase the number of connections.

 

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[villa...@gmail.com]

Re the expansion card, I joined 2  boards together via short ribbon cable giving me the option of 8 cards!!  The bus length doesn't seem to be a problem and, as mentioned earlier,  ensure the 5v supply is adequate.

[Belknap K]

shortest read: skip everthing I say and read the datasheet from FTDI
(iirc the chapter or diagram is '6' for self-powered equipment).

The stack exchange link is good reading for background.

  long version:

To my best knowledge:

    Vcc *must* be present if D+ and D- are used for USB.  Self-powered
equipment doesn't use it, but you can't cut the Vcc wire (nor
switch it) either.

Vcc is literally part of the electrical signalling protocol (plug in a
USB cable, you have just activated a 4-pole single-throw switch, which
provides a new signal for the host PC to decode, on D+ irrc - which
*must* be referenced to the host PC's definition for VBUS +5.0 V - cut
that wire, and you have just lost your voltage reference - this signal
should *never* be referenced to a second power supply's guess at what
Vcc 5.0 volts should be).  Break this rule, bad things happen.  Stuff
that costs money, to repair.

  I almost certainlyh have some of that wrong; one of the EE's here
should be able to say it correctly. ;)

  That's my understanding (I am in no way an Engineer). ;)

  FTDI has a datasheet that shows a proper configuration for self-powered
equipment, here:

http://www.ftdichip.com/Support/Documents/DataSheets/ICs/DS_FT232R.pdf

See also:
https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/55445/does-a-self-powered-usb-device-have-to-connect-to-vcc-from-the-host-port

On 6/21/22 17:34, Chris Davis wrote:
> Or you could just peel back some of the insulation on the USB
> extension, clip the red wire, and add a switch if you want to get fancy.
>
> On Tuesday, June 21, 2022 at 12:31:00 PM UTC-5 Chris Davis wrote:
>
> Does anyone have a source for a micro USB female to male power
> blocker?  I could link that as an option on the website.
>
>
> On Tuesday, June 21, 2022 at 12:28:13 PM UTC-5 Chris Davis wrote:
>
> I would if I could find a place to print the front panels. 
> I'm doing it myself now.  Each panel has to go through the UV
> printer twice and takes a total of 45 minutes.  For now it
> might just be a limited time option you can select.
>
> On Tuesday, June 21, 2022 at 12:23:32 PM UTC-5
> wils...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> Just looking at the layout of this board, Chris... I
> really like it. The reduced part count will make assembly
> much easier, and integrating a breakout for the I/O board
> is also a fantastic step forward.
>
> So based on the fact that you have jumpers for B Mode
> operation, are you planning on offering B faceplates as a
> standard option in the future?
>
>
> Tom Wilson
> wils...@gmail.com

> (619)940-6311 <tel:(619)%20940-6311>

>
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 21, 2022 at 7:48 AM Chris Davis
> <famousd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I will soon have the last of the version 1.5.3 kits
> available, but some of you might want to wait.  I am
> working on version 2.0 of the Altair-Duino.  I figured
> I'd post what's going on so you can make suggestions
> or point out any errors I've missed.
>
> The main reason for the change is the addition of a
> pin header for David's new I/O backplane (henceforth
> known as the "Hansel Bus"!)  Along with adding this 26
> pin header, I want to incorporate the VT100 emulator
> into the backplane.  I'm not planning on producing the
> I/O cards, I will leave that up to the hobbyist to do,
> but at least my kit can provide a place to plug them
> in.  Or they could buy a standard kit and simply
> connect David's backplane to the pin header.
>
> One question I have - is there a reason the current
> backplane has room for only four cards?  Is that
> because at that time there were only four expansion
> cards, or is that a limitation of the architecture? 
> Since I'm planning on incorporating the backplane into
> the VT100 emulator, I could increase the number of
> connections.
>

> Screenshot 2022-06-21 094635.png

> Screenshot 2022-06-21 094737.png
>
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[Walt Perko]

Hi, 

I found a better price for the USB Power Blockers on Etsy:  

https://www.etsy.com/listing/1184029990/usb-power-isolator-for-3d-printers?ga_order=most_relevant&ga_search_type=all&ga_view_type=gallery&ga_search_query=USB+Power+Isolator+for+3D+printers%2C+Klipper%2C+Octoprint&ref=sr_gallery-1-1&sts=1&organic_search_click=1

[Tom Lake]

It figures that this news would come out the same day as I received my 1.53 kit! Will the 2.0 board be available separately? I suppose I'd also need a new I/O board as well, right? If so, I'll hold off on building my kit.
There's no reason the backplane can't have more slots. It was designed with four for cost efficiency. In fact a six-slot version is also available from a third party.

On Tuesday, June 21, 2022 at 10:48:57 AM UTC-4 famousd...@gmail.com wrote:

[Chris Davis]

You can always sell it on eBay.  Just call it "MUSEUM ITEM - RARE FIND".

[Belknap K]

[LINUX]

* * * long post

wrt: Front panel USB power cut-off.

Still thinking about a (desired) front panel on/off switch that
functions well in all contexts, doesn't break rules, is easy (heh) to
implement, and possibly without any silicon chips as helpers. Especially
SMD's .. that'd be off-limits, I'd have to guess.


uhubctl - partial success

I had (partial) success (just now) using uhubctl, to remove the data
connection to the Due.  My (Altair-Duino 8080 mode) assembler program
(keyboard echo) stopped recognizing keystrokes, after 'removing power'
from the (internal) hub (of my desktop PC). ;)

https://github.com/mvp/uhubctl

'removing power' was done and noticed by the software running on the
PC.  By the textual reports, it looked like the Altair-Duino should have
been powered entirely off.

But it wasn't.


uhubctl did not cut off VUSB, on the internal hub of this Dell OptiPlex
790.  I don't have a dumb device (fan, LED &c.) to plug into the
(internal) USB hub, to check for if the system will in fact cut off
power when it sees nothing interesting on the port (no connected
semi-smart device; just a dumb USB load, with no electronics in it).

When I re-enabled the hub using uhubctl, I did an Altair-Duino front
panel RESET and continued on.

At no point did I notice all lights on the A-D fp cycling.  The Due
never lost power. ;)

Haven't played with it much, since it didn't cut off VUSB, which was the
goal.



Unsupported Hub

The README.md on the github repository suggests I have an unsupported hub:

(quote)

 "Your hub manufacturer did not include circuitry to actually cut power
off."  (see context, below):

  "How do I check if my USB hub is supported by uhubctl?
 .
 .
  "Check for VBUS (voltage) off support: plug a phone, USB light or USB
fan into USB port of your hub. Try using uhubctl to turn power off on
that port, and check that phone stops charging, USB light stops shining
or USB fan stops spinning. If VBUS doesn't turn off, your hub
manufacturer did not include circuitry to actually cut power off. Such
hub would still work to cut off USB data connection, but it cannot turn
off power, and we do not consider this [a] supported device."

(endquote)


Too bad; I was hoping this would do the job, substituting for yanking
the USB plug when I want a cold power cycle on the Altair-Duino (mainly
to check assumptions; still learning the fundamentals of this elegant
system!)

;)

uhubctl seems like the correct idea, to me.

Still looking at other solutions (eevblog forum, quora, stackexchange,
SparkFun and Adafruit schematics/documentation, &c.)

At no point did I get out of my chair, so I know for sure I didn't
unplug the USB cable (sometimes I do things without noticing I've done
them ;)


I did find the tty session to /dev/ttyACM0 was reset (I found myself
back at the shell prompt, ready to launch picocom again) but I don't
remember the context.

(picocom is just like putty or hyperterm, in windows, in this role.)

OS is Debian Bullseye amd64 - uhubctl is a legit Debian Bullseye package
(nice!)



(only quoted text, below this line)

[end_of_message]

[Chris Davis]

I got a few version 2.0.0 boards and other than a few minor errors, it works great.  Assembly was so fast, it felt like cheating.

[Tom Wilson]

This is great! These are all fantastic upgrades, and the ICs definitely make for a cleaner appearance. I like it.

In fact, I find myself wanting to order another system that I can Frankenstein in to my prototype acrylic case... I'd really like to upgrade that board so I can work on some of my own upgrade project ideas. (one of which involves a NUC motherboard...)

Tom Wilson
wils...@gmail.com
(619)940-6311 

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[Jay Falck - GMail]

Yeah, I can already see myself trying to explain to my wife I need to order a 5^th kit. 😊

 

From: altair...@googlegroups.com <altair...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Tom Wilson
Sent: Saturday, July 2, 2022 3:04 PM
To: Chris Davis <famousd...@gmail.com>
Cc: Altair-Duino <altair...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Altair-Duino 2.0

 

 

This is great! These are all fantastic upgrades, and the ICs definitely make for a cleaner appearance. I like it.

 

In fact, I find myself wanting to order another system that I can Frankenstein in to my prototype acrylic case... I'd really like to upgrade that board so I can work on some of my own upgrade project ideas. (one of which involves a NUC motherboard...)

Tom Wilson
wils...@gmail.com
(619)940-6311 

 

On Sat, Jul 2, 2022 at 12:37 PM Chris Davis <famousd...@gmail.com> wrote:

I got a few version 2.0.0 boards and other than a few minor errors, it works great.  Assembly was so fast, it felt like cheating.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/altair-duino/CALt8mqRZ67jtKpVQ2_DkPY4m_A%2BpTJ5XMvDCarS1PyydnPPcMw%40mail.gmail.com.

[wils...@gmail.com]

> Yeah, I can already see myself trying to explain to my wife I need to order a 5th kit. 

I have also had 5, as well, including the Mini. 

I'm not quite ready to order number 6, but I would definitely order an upgrade kit - something with this board and its attendant parts, leaving out the Due, I/O board, and enclosure. (We already have people asking for a B faceplate... so I could envision two upgrade SKUs.)

[Walt Perko]

Hi, 

Looking at the build I'm wondering why can't those hex stand offs be used to set the LED height for the front panel?  It would be great to have four legs holding the front panel with all the LED in place, then set it on a table to solder the LEDs at the correct level, or does that make it too easy.  

[Jay Falck - GMail]

That’s how I did mine. And yes, it was easy that way. 😊

 

From: altair...@googlegroups.com <altair...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Walt Perko
Sent: Saturday, July 2, 2022 3:32 PM
To: Altair-Duino <altair...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Altair-Duino 2.0

 

Hi, 

 

Looking at the build I'm wondering why can't those hex stand offs be used to set the LED height for the front panel?  It would be great to have four legs holding the front panel with all the LED in place, then set it on a table to solder the LEDs at the correct level, or does that make it too easy.  

 

 

On Saturday, July 2, 2022 at 12:37:07 PM UTC-7 famousd...@gmail.com wrote:

I got a few version 2.0.0 boards and other than a few minor errors, it works great.  Assembly was so fast, it felt like cheating.

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[Walt Perko]

Hi, 

As for other face plates, I'd like to get one with a lighter gray background that looks like this with the straight SENSE SW line.  

I need at least 1,000 views of my project in the TechBriefs contest if not 200 or more votes so I can afford to buy an Altair-Duino Pro "B";  
https://contest.techbriefs.com/2022/entries/consumer-product-design/11647

[Tom Lake]

Will you be revising the board before sale or will you include patch instructions?

 

Tom L

 

Sent from Mail for Windows

 

From: Chris Davis
Sent: Saturday, July 2, 2022 3:37 PM
To: Altair-Duino
Subject: Re: Altair-Duino 2.0

 

I got a few version 2.0.0 boards and other than a few minor errors, it works great.  Assembly was so fast, it felt like cheating.

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[Chris Davis]

Most of the kit is being redesigned.  No patch instructions will be necessary.  These won't be ready for a few months.

[Charley Jones]

That’s great.  I will be buying another one!

Sent from my iPhone 12pm!

Charley Jones, PMP

On Jul 2, 2022, at 1:29 PM, wils...@gmail.com <wils...@gmail.com> wrote:



> Yeah, I can already see myself trying to explain to my wife I need to order a 5th kit. 

I have also had 5, as well, including the Mini. 

I'm not quite ready to order number 6, but I would definitely order an upgrade kit - something with this board and its attendant parts, leaving out the Due, I/O board, and enclosure. (We already have people asking for a B faceplate... so I could envision two upgrade SKUs.)

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[Chris Davis]

Here's my latest revision.  David's expansion board and the VT100/Serial/external ports board have been combined.  I still need to build a couple expansion cards to test it.

[Walt Perko]

Hi, 

You're just determined to get us to buy another kit!  

[Tom Lake]

Me want! The AltairDuino computer is really turning into a complete system with this addition. The only lack that I can see is interrupt support for additional serial ports. Without that, I can't run
Timesharing BASIC. Do you know if there's any possibility of it being added in the future or is it totally out of the question?

[Thomas Runge]

Looks great. Tempted...

[Walt Perko]

Hi, 

I was just thinking that on the back of the cabinet there should be five slots about 10mm to 15mm wide with a mounting bolt hole above and below each slot and then a set of mounting brackets for standard panel mount connectors like a DB9, DB25, Male PIN header, Female Header and a Solid Blank, so the user can install nice neat connections on the back of their computer.  

Something like this, but maybe vertical to match the boards in the slots;  I 3D printed my panel mount brackets.  

On Wednesday, July 13, 2022 at 8:21:49 PM UTC-7 famousd...@gmail.com wrote:

[Bill Saltzstein]

With that photo, I've suspended work on my wiring to add the wiring to my kit.  I'll wait and order when ready -- sign me up!

Bill

[villa...@gmail.com]

I like the idea of a built in expansion board. As the expansion boards give the provision for additional serial ports as well as I/O ports may I suggest that a few blank 25 way D connectors or blanks to handle the i/o ports - so that a ribbon cable from the I/O board can be connected to the 25 way connector. Like wise for the serial card - maybe 9 way ? All this would avoid trying to gain access to the ports.

[Chris Davis]

That is undecided for the moment.  I'm just trying to get a working version right now!

But I know what you mean, it is nuts trying to source just a few parts for one or two boards.

On Monday, July 25, 2022 at 12:19:04 PM UTC-5 furba...@gmail.com wrote:

will you also be selling kits of the plug in cards for the serial bus?

this way your a one stop shop. if i get the new 2.0 when released i would want to also purchase board and not have to go nuts sourcing everything.

[Walt Perko]

Hi, 

I don't know how many people have built the I/O Expansion and boards, but I'm thinking the kit should not include the blank boards and the boards and components could be an optional buy.  

After the first batch of everything goes out, I'm sure the most popular boards will stick out like a sore thumb and would be the restocked kit items so that an individual board & components would be an optional kit to make life easier for Chris.