Yogaville response to critism
yoga...@my-deja.com
imagine they have distributed this across the country. Everyone who is
interested in or does yoga should read through and visit the website.
It is not only informative, but scary that after only 1 month inside
Yogaville, one can be recruited into a cult. It's too bad more
information wasn't posted before this newest in a series of scandals.
These are complete lies from Yogaville:
1) From the audiotape recording made in Feb, Catherine is already
convinced she is not in a cult, is afraid of being kidnapped and
deprogrammed, going back to New York, will not speak to anyone because
of her new fears and that they may convince her otherwise.
2) Rev. Prem Anjali claims she does not know Catherine's brother but one
of the first things she says to him is, You live in New York?
3) Look at the list of legal demands, 4 different Lawyers and Law Firms
and still the family can't see her alone. I bet anyone would be scared
of these guys!!!
4) The Integral Yoga Minster is once again Rev. Prem Anjali which is
clearly on their "marriage certificate".
5) I don't think they got the family's blessing by knocking on their
door for 3 days straight and finally confronting them by lounging for
the door.
Odviously, the administrators of Yogaville are liars, and this is a vast
coverup at the Integral Yoga Institute.
I know more news media is picking up on this story, it is really
incredible. I hope to see more picketing outside the Integral Yoga
Institute and my prayers are with that family and their brave fight
against the Yogaville cult.
http://www.rickross.com/groups/yogaville.html
I say FREE CATHERINE!
7/19/1999
Dear friends,
Hari Om. I'm forwarding these letters from the Ashram to those people
that I believe have received a flyer from the Cheng family. Hopefully,
they will clarify adequately the position of the Ashram and Catherine
Cheng herself, in the light of what was written about them. Please feel
free to contact me or Swami Bhaktananda if you would like to discuss
this further.
Yours in the Light of Yoga
Swami Ramananda,
President - Integral Yoga Institute New York
277 West 12 Street New York NY 10011 Phone: 212-929-0586 Fax:
212-675-3674 E Mail: iy...@ibm.net
Dear Ramanandaji,
Warmest greetings of peace.
Recently, you have received a letter from the Cheng family. This
concerns one of our former Swamis, Swami Atmananda (now Larry Sundaram
Gross), and a then 23 year-old program participant, Catherine Cheng.
After she was here for a short while, they met, fell in love, and
decided to marry. Larry was strongly discouraged by his fellow monastics
from leaving his monastic vows. But he still decided to do so.
Our policies encourage program participants such as Catherine to avoid
romantic involvement during the duration of their scheduled program and
to focus on their studies and their purpose for being enrolled in the
program. We do not take these policies lightly, but we ultimately
respect the right of individuals to make their own life choices.
Due to the complexities of this relationship (Larry being a former
swami, Catherine being 27 years his junior, her desire to leave law
school and their having known each other a short time - along with her
family's strong disapproval of her marriage), we were very concerned and
cautioned the couple from proceeding so quickly. However, they were
determined to be married as soon as possible. They asked to be married
by an Integral Yoga minister and we agreed to this only on the condition
that Catherine receive the blessing of her family. When we were informed
that the blessings had been given, they were married. (Please see her
father's letter below.)
Apparently after employing an intervention specialist/deprogrammer,
Catherine's family became convinced that she had been "brainwashed" at
Yogaville. At this point, we thought it most wise to ask the couple to
discontinue living here and to return only after resolving various
issues with her family. Catherine went to New York to meet with her
parents (please see paragraph 10 of Catherine's attached statement).
After attempts at reconciliation in New York failed, Catherine and Larry
wanted to return to Yogaville. Considering the efforts that Catherine
had made, the administration felt that this was reasonable.
We can empathize with and understand the family's pain and confusion.
Unfortunately, the way they have chosen to resolve their family
situation is to attack Yogaville. We find this puzzling since it is the
couple's choice - not ours - to determine where and how they live their
life together. We will continue to encourage Catherine to try to come to
some accord with her family.
Yours in Yoga,
Swami Asokananda and the Yogaville Adminstrators
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
gurdj...@my-deja.com
Let's be honest here, Yogaville doesn't want their dirty landry exposed
on National Television. They just want to ignore the situation and play
dumb, roll their eyes backwards and pretend there is nothing wrong.
Same with some of the people in this newsgroup, Yoga (westernized
version) is their occupation. If people knew there were bad Yoga
organizations out there, they'd be very worried.
This is the first time I've ever seen a Yoga scandal in the national
spotlight. I've never heard of Yogaville before this, but I'd certainly
not go there now... Swami Satchidananda is famous, I guess he will be
famous for molesting girls now.
Gurdjjeiff
In article <7urmec$74r$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
yoga...@my-deja.com
In the course of my research of this Yogaville crisis, I found the
following letter from Yogaville's current president and former president
of the Integral Yoga Institute of New York Swami Asokananda. I think
it's really interesting because it is during the time when Catherine is
in deprogramming sessions and when Larry Gross refuses to bind by the
rules of the agreement.
Odviously as there was before and there is now, tension and stress in
Yogaville:
Swami Asokananda's message: posted May 26, 1999
President's Message
May, 1999
by Swami Asokananda
I'm going to step out on a limb here and make
the following assumption: We, the members of Satchidananda
Ashram-Yogaville, have a shared purpose to grow spiritually,
and to have a tremendous positive impact on the world by
making our portion of the planet harmonious through living
Sri Gurudev's teaching and sharing them with anyone interested. I
don't know if I'd call this a vision or a statement of purpose, but more
importantly, I believe this is doable, as opposed to a pipedream.
Read it again, and see if you agree.
But even the loftiest vision has to be grounded in what you've
got to work with, your present reality. Otherwise, people end up
frustrated and disappointed because there is no apparent route from
here to there. I'm reading the book Sacred Hoops by Phil Jackson,
the ex-coach of the Chicago Bulls. He says, "When your vision is
based on a clear-sighted, realistic assessment of your resources,
alchemy often mysteriously occurs, and a team
transforms into a force greater than the sum of it's individual
talents. Inevitably, paradoxically, the acceptance of boundaries and
limits is the gateway to freedom."
In alignment with Mr. Jackson's thinking, the administrators -
Swami Chidananda, Swami Jyotirmayananda, Ram Weiner, and I
have been discussing ways to bring focus and direction to the
"grand vision" so that we might begin to experience some of its'
benefits in the not too distant future (i.e. our lifetimes). After an
astute analysis of the state of affairs here, we came up with three
behavioral traits to center our attention on for now, which if woven
into our daily activities would have the greatest impact on the quality
of our lives. Taking my second step out on the limb, I present you
what
we formulated in the form of the following three principles:
Principle #1
We understand that our conditioning is best mirrored and
revealed to us trough our relationships with our fellow
sanga members. To help us to transform limiting or distorting
samskaras, we are committed to developing respectful, honest, and
straightforward communication. This high quality interaction will help
remove the obstacles to experiencing
our natural, deep, spiritual connectedness with each other.
We agree that backbiting, gossip, and putting down people not
present is not conducive to our personal or organizational
well-being, and will avoid such interactions.
Principle #2
We are committed to building personal and organizational
integrity through timely follow-through in all clearly stated
promises and agreements.
Principle #3
We are committed to building trust and goodwill
through expressing genuine appreciation for each other.
Yes, I know that the leadership regularly falls short
of exemplifying these behaviors, and our egos are painfully
aware that we will be the laughing-stock of the community if
we can't walk our talk. Every week we review what lessons are
coming up for us as we try to live according to these principles, how
we can keep focused on them, better implement
them in our lives, and imbibe them into the culture. Hopefully you
are
able to make use of our shortcomings as lessons of what not
to do in your own life.
When I arrived here about two years ago and was asked to
survey the situation, many people expressed how they felt beaten
down by the "inhumanity of the system." It feels to me that we are
all taking
more responsibility for making a shift by truly seeing that how
people
treat each other really does make a difference, especially it it's
people
you plan to be living with for a very long time. We believe these
principles, if taken seriously, will foster both sound mental health
and communal well-being.
Phil Jackson writes, "Before a vision can become a reality, it
must be owned by every member of the group." So, let me know if
this feels aligned with what you see is needed or if
you have a different vision on how we should proceed. Certainly
there are other behaviors that are important, and we can and
should move onto them. But my guess is that these three will
keep us busy until the ball falls and we enter the next millennium.
Yours at the feet of the Master,
Swami Asokananda
In article <7utls6$ffu$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
gurdj...@my-deja.com
There was a lot of mean stuff written in this newsgroup about basically
anyone who went against the status quo. I mean, geez guys, these are
real people making serious complaints against these Yoga Schools, and
some people in this forum say it's not the right place? Then what is?
alt.yoga.sexuallyabused
alt.yoga.cheatedoutofmymoney
alt.yoga.mylifehasbeenalie
alt.yoga.exyoga
I'm surprised more people in this NG aren't taking a notice.. or maybe
they just don't care.
Then again, maybe they feel ashamed for having defended an evil
organization.
Gurdjjeiff
In article <7v0j9g$bfo$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
Sahaj Yogi
suggests. I few times it has been brought up that Catherine said that she
was abused and yet those claims of hers has been totally ignored and
dismissed as "brainwashing" by those whose only is to attack Integral Yoga.
Again doesn't Catherine have any rights in this matter at 27 years old or
does the Cheung Family want to go back to a patriarchal totalitarian rule
(before the revolution) where the father has absolute say?
In this democracy if any law has been broken, then it is up to the police to
prosecute and no such prosecution has been started because the laws in this
country recognize the freedom to pursue the religion of one's choice (a
historical tradition in America as opposed to China).
To be open minded in this matter, one has to hear the whole story (both
sides) and not demean Catherine's side (which would be the definition of
close-mindedness). For instance if Catherine started a web site and said
that she had been repeatedly sexually abused by her father who is now in
defensive denial, would every one believe her? Some people would of course,
but an open minded person may want to hear both sides, before making up
their own mind.
The problem in this situation is that the family wants to make up my mind
for me and I want to also give Catherine some credit (she is supposed to
intelligent and 27 years old). This is a simple family control issue where
the domineering father refuses to admit "defeat" that her daughter rejected
him for another man and religion. As anybody who knows anything about
professional cult busters such as Rick Ross who makes huge sums of money in
his work, they have ulterior motives in identifying and demonizing so called
cults, but no one has been able to identify what must be a very powerful
brainwashing technique that IYS has supposedly used on Catherine.
Now as an open minded person, I have heard enough from the defenders of
child abuse and patriarchy, but nothing about the altruistic and lofty
ideals and work that IYS members ascribe to and have accomplished, so in the
interest of making a judgement based on both sides of an argument, I would
suggest that people read some of Swami Satchitananda's books and/or his
disciples such as Dr. Dean Ornish. In the meanwhile, can't those who pretend
that they are supporters of Catherine's see how much embarrassment they may
be causing her with her new family and friends? Can such people really care
about Catherine and her rights or is there not an underlying family bias in
these posts?
Do any of the"pro-family" posters care about Catherine and do any of them
practice yoga? If any do practice yoga, what kind do you practice? If their
purpose is simply to defend sexual abuse or totalitarian values try
alt.sexualabuse. How about it, is it politically correct in your circles to
discount Catherine's own wishes and then label it in her own best interest?
No wonder she hates her family, but in any case, I do not see how any
further repetitious actions on the subject of what is a family abuse topic
is on topic here at alt.yoga newsgroup.
gurdj...@my-deja.com
Actually, that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that people of
this newsgroup like yourself seem so eager to support the status quo. I
researched the past articles and read yours. Please re-read mine and
the family's story. First, she's 24. Second, he's 51. Third, there
have been 30 years of complaints against this place and no one has taken
a stand against it.
That time is now.
Free Catherine!
In article <B8KR3.782$Ec1....@news1.frmt1.sfba.home.com>,
gurdj...@my-deja.com
If your news server deleted this already, here it is again for your
convenience. Please re-read it before jumping to conclusions and
defending this evil organization.
In article <7v5ir8$utt$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
Sahaj Yogi
Again you fail to answer a very direct question; does Catherine have both a
legal and moral right to decide for herself or do you claim that her father
has this right? Can you entirely with good conscience totally dismiss
Catherine's claims of abuse against her father? After these two very
important questions are answered, then maybe you can answer if you truly
really feel that the father's actions are helping Catherine or rather are
they simply attempts to further punish her disobedience and rebellion?
Gurdjieff, you have used the term, status quo, now twice. That is normally
used to describe majority thought, the established order of things,
consensus reality, family structure, and thus is most often associated with
patriarchal authoritarianism. Although you may be correct that Yoga9900,
AIC2000, and John have engaged in this tactic, it's hardly my stance, rather
I support Catherine's independence (and rebelliousness) as a necessary first
step to get out from under what seems to be a very controlling and punishing
father.
Perhaps you are a father and identify with him? Have you asked the father
point blank if there was ever any childhood abuse and given his present
actions, do you think that he would give you an honest response if such
abuse existed?
My definition of fairness and non-prejudicial judgement is to first do an
in-depth analysis with an open mind. This is a pre-requisite. Only then can
a man make an honest decision. What I have seen here repeatedly is
prejudice, not giving Catherine any credibility or rights in this matter and
to me this reinforces the "notion" of abuse rather than serves the
credibility of the Cheung family.
Again it seems to be Mr. Cheung's word against Catherine's, neither being a
suitable topic for alt.yoga. Being a believer in the constitution, I must
respect Catherine's wishes in this regard and rest assured that if laws have
been broken, then the police will enforce it. Of course my conclusion is
based on my own values (as stated above) and I confess the fact that I have
known and learned to respect many IYS yoga teachers in the past so if
anything I came into the discussion prejudiced toward Catherine's views. But
now I have done my research and still feel that it is Catherine's right to
chose and that no illegal brainwashing has occurred. Certainly she has had a
change of heart or mind, but is this a "bad" thing? Certainly not everyone
at IYS has been 100% happy because like all human organizations they are not
"perfect", but is it not to their credit that the new Swami makes no claims
of perfection? For instance has there been more or less complaints about
sexual abuse leveled against IYS say for instance against Catholic Priests
by choir boys? If there have been proof of illegal activities sanctioned by
the church, why is it that the police has refused to act? You know there are
many allegations being made without any proof, while it is not very hard to
see the hurtfulness, vindictiveness, and punitive demeanor of the Cheung
family in regard to IYS and hopefully indirectly toward Catherine, thus I do
not think it serves the best interest of Catherine to continue this way.
What is it that you hope to accomplish in this regard on this newsgroup?
Again, I ask another direct question, do you have any interest in yoga and
if so what aspect or is your intent to demean and harass?
To me right now, I care mostly for Catherine's future and am certain that if
Mr. Cheung would become less aggressive and abusive in his behavior she
would see him and the family as less of a threat. If it's any consolation to
Mr. Cheung, I know many IYS members who have contributed greatly in the
fields of medicine, health, science, and society in general and I hope that
he will give Catherine her chance to flower independently of his aegis.
Now I have asked you many direct and sincere questions (many for the third
time) so if you chose not to answer, I will assume that your purpose here is
not to dialogue. Hope that I have again foolishly consumed needless
bandwidth in this attempt.
sincerely yours in integrity
Gurdjieff, you say there have been thirty years of complaints against IYS.
Where does one register such complaints?
Sahaj Yogi
I too have done some research attempting to make sense of both sides of the
argument -- that is Catherine's view and her father's view. I find a gross
inconsistency with the father's argument. In his own words, he repeatedly
states that he was denied access to meet with his daughter, but when she
tries to meet with him and her family she is denied access unto her home. In
what is to my sensibility a brutal description, Mr., Cheng describes this
incidence in his own words as follows:
"On April 24th, at 9 AM, Catherine suddenly appeared at our home,
unannounced, and began pounding on the door. Fearing that at this point she
had come to provoke an incident, and recalling the outrageous claims and
legal threats made, I left a note on the door advising her that we hoped to
see her soon under conditions agreeable both to Yogaville and to us. As I
left my note, my daughter rushed towards the door from behind one of our
bushes. I quickly closed the door and locked it. She appeared disturbed, in
a rage, and again began pounding on the door. It seemed that any supposed
fear of me or our family had abruptly vanished.
Again, on April 25th, at 9:30 AM, my daughter returned to our home and began
ringing the doorbell continuously for hours. I had to disconnect it. She
then began banging on our door so loudly that the neighbors came out to see
what was going on. I glanced at her through our windows. Her face seemed
covered in a bright red rash and was very swollen. I had never seen her face
look like that before. At 11:00 AM, she again called from a neighbor's house
and left another note under our door. She reiterated that her husband's job
had been terminated. She said, "If you want to see me you have to make the
arrangements with me. There is no other way. " Again, this was clearly an
attempt to circumvent a negotiation process we were pursuing through Mr.
Ross. She also said that they could not return to Yogaville unless we gave
our consent. My family would have to give our consent for them to go to
Yogaville? This had really become bizarre. At about 4:30 PM, Catherine
returned to the house and began banging on the windows with a broomstick.
This continued until about 11:00 PM. During this time, Larry Gross my new
"son-in-law", stood by his car--seemingly directing my daughter's actions.
It was sick and cruel for Yogaville and/or Mr. Gross to apparently use my
daughter as a pawn to strike at us in this way. My family became fearful to
even leave our home.
The next day, April 26th, the situation became worse. At 7:00 AM, as my wife
and son tried to leave our house, my daughter lunged for the door. She had
been hiding to the side of the doorway, unseen. My wife screamed. Catherine
almost got inside and yet seemed to have a panicked look on her face, as if
she didn't know what she would do if she did get inside. At that point she
turned back to look to her husband for assistance, as if to ask him what she
should do if she went inside. My wife and son were able to prevent her from
entering. However, in the fracas, my wife's leg was injured badly from being
wedged in the doorway and my son's coat was badly ripped. My wife required
treatment from a doctor. Again, during this incident my "son-in-law" sat in
his car appearing to supervise my daughter's actions. At other times, he
also walked back and forth in front of my home in an intimidating manner. I
stayed home from work that day to protect my family. "
Gosh, this doesn't seem very a very kind, loving, nor consistent behaviour
by the family toward Catherine to me. Does it seem so to you? There seems to
be gross denial, contradiction, and lack of integrity on the side of the
family (in the family's own words as quoted above). In addition there exists
the pecuniary interest of Mr. Ross which has been admitted and which it is
not proper to foster here in this newsgroup.
In addition, I have found that yoga9900, gurdjjeff, saraho, and our old
friend aic2000 are all fictitious names for the same person whose only
posting history has been to vindictively harass and harangue IYS and their
supporters. Now you may have the requisite neurotic energy for such a
deception, but is all this petty repetitious lack of dialogue and integrity
serving anybody except for you to transfer your guilt (and hence
responsibility) in this matter onto the very organization who liberated your
daughter from your mean and abusive grasp? I pity you, more than your poor
daughter.
Sahaj Yogi
again) in the form of Gurdjjeiff and yoga9900. What aic2000 didn't realize
is that there exist ways in which his split personality; and fraudulent
dialogue with himself can be detected thus not exactly adding to the
credibility of his side of the argument which is the same as it was a few
months ago i.e., attempting to attack so called yoga "cults" and flood this
newsgroup with punitive and demeaning abuse.
<gurdj...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:7v5ir8$utt$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> Hey yoga9900,
Talking to yourelf again aic2000?
> There was a lot of mean stuff written in this newsgroup about basically
> anyone who went against the status quo.
Yes, your posts are mean spirited as are others that are driven by
hurtfulness and revenge.
> I mean, geez guys, these are real people making serious complaints
against these > Yoga Schools,
Yoga schools (pleural)? How many yoga schools (or are all yoga schools)
evil?
> and some people in this forum say it's not the right place? Then what
is?
> alt.yoga.sexuallyabused
> alt.yoga.cheatedoutofmymoney
> alt.yoga.mylifehasbeenalie
> alt.yoga.exyoga
Yes, those and alt.dysfunctionalfamily
alt.I_am_in_denial_momma
> I'm surprised more people in this NG aren't taking a notice.. or maybe
> they just don't care.
Or maybe they are too aware to get sucked into your lowly spite and power
tripping? Maybe if you made it more spicy with details of the child abuse
(was their sexual abuse also) claimed by Catherine there would be more
interest?
> Then again, maybe they feel ashamed for having defended an evil
> organization.
>
> Gurdjjeiff
That's a good start Gurdjjeiff, now you are speaking the truth --how you
REALLY feel about this yoga newsgroup! After all without yoga, there would
be no swami, with no swami you would have your daughter to freely lord over,
abuse, and terrorize -- ergo yoga is a threat, and thus you have a neded to
demean it? Bravo -- good thinking!
Yoga people defend evil organizations right, because yoga is evil, right? I
mean just ask Mr. Ross whose services you have paid for (who reinforces your
own arrogant delusions for money) if this is not his conclusion as well --
a great team no doubt!
But here is another take. I am suggesting that most people come to alt.yoga
to ask questions about or discuss various topics relating to their interest
and passion for yoga, as means to dialogue and network about yoga, and as
means to exchange yoga related information based on a genuine interest in
yoga, but not as a means to vent their hatred or vindictiveness toward yoga,
to harass the newsgroup, or to convert/subvert it to another purpose i.e.
altantiyoga.hatred may be the suitable forum that you seek? It is your
right to be distrustful of yoga (especially in light of your daughter's
experience), but I would like to also remind you that as yoga enthusiasts we
have a right also to pursue the yoga path on this newsgroup without undue
harassment, unfriendly outside interference, organized disruption, attack,
or abuse.
I'd like you to fess up what your real purpose and motives are on this
newsgroup and cease your mean spirited spitefulness which only further
serves to punish Catherine while you paint yourself as an obsessive
dysfunctional fool. You have repeatedly flooded this newsgroup with the same
information, and at the same time avoided our questions and any meaningful
dialogue. With all the unscrupulous and vindictive tactics that you have
evinced so far, how can you wonder why it is that Catherine hates you and is
attempting to extricate herself from such abusive tactics? Give yourself
(and the rest of us) a break, admit that you have a problem here, and please
get some help. No I don't enjoy "getting in your face", but feel that it is
best to for the cyst to popped now, and the pus extracted without further
delay for the eventual benign outcome in the best interests for all
involved -- in the long run.
Here -- I have bared myself. What will be your response?
gurdj...@my-deja.com
Where does it say that? No where.
I think _you_ are slandering her father, I think you'll be sued Sahaj
Yogi if that's your real name.
Please check http://www.rickross.com/groups/yogaville.html
Sorry to disappoint you Sahaj, odviously your knowledge of the internet
is severely limited with things such as Anonymizer and proxy servers out
there.
#2 She's completely brainwashed
#3 If you listen to the tape recording, she scared out of her mind to go
back home, why is she back with Larry Gross, attorney of Yogaville
outside of their house?? Would you open the door to someone who says
you're going to kidnap and deprogram you??
Gurdjjeiff
In article <8bSR3.1503$Ec1....@news1.frmt1.sfba.home.com>,
> been broken, then the police will enforce it. Of course my conclusion
is
On the Internet. Nuff said.
gurdj...@my-deja.com
door and attacking your family and you'd open the door??
http://www.rickross.com/groups/yogaville.html
Odviously if these articles have appeared on MSNBC, NBC, Extra, NY Post
and other reputable media with all of Yogaville's and Integral Yoga
Institute's lawyers breathing down their backs, and they air it,
Yogaville's version is complete lies.
In article <5aTR3.1670$Ec1....@news1.frmt1.sfba.home.com>,
Sahaj Yogi
<gurdj...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:7vai9k$ipp$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
AIC2000 you truly continue to amaze me with your compounding
counter-productive dysfunctional activities. You are clearly exhibiting
abusive behavior (no wonder Catherine has finally made her break.
First you abuse and punish her as a child in order to assert your absolute
authority in her life and you continue with added spite and vindictiveness
to abuse her, her husband, her teacher, her religions, her friends, and
supporters in adulthood. Then (Lord have mercy) you totally disown any
responsibility in this situation (blaming it on Catherine and her obvious
brainwashing). Gosh, gee or rather should I say yuk?
At least in a "normal" dysfunctional family where there arise disputes of
control, power, authority, and belief the father usually does not
vindictively take out a web site to demean and punish the child's religion,
husband, teacher, friends, and supporters. Nor does the father spend big
dollars on services for Rick Ross while at the same time refusing to talk to
or even allow their daughter into their house (at the advice of Mr. Ross).
How much money did you spend on Mr. Ross and what has he done for you? It
seems that people in your situation are easy prey to those who would exploit
such situations and you have shown that you would rather support your own
dysfunctional delusions than your own daughter's basic human rights (to
worship as she chooses and to marry the man of her own free will).
In denying her this right and acting vindictively as you have, you are
lending credibility to her claims of childhood abuse (now extending into
adulthood). What is more astounding is that in your attempt to establish
credibility by creating a false dialogue with yourself (because no one else
has shown great interest in dysfunctional family politics, mean
spiritedness, vindictive spiteful actions, and punitive behavior (life is
already too short isn't it Mr. Cheng) you have in fact lost credibility
after having your sham been exposed.
In fact, you have a one sided obsession of denial and escape centered upon
externalizing your responsibility (guilt) in this matter upon the very
people and organization who has disclosed your own hidden (and dark)
secrets, delusion, lie, hypocrisy, contradiction, which has now bordered
upon schizophrenic like activity.
I urge you to create some perspective in your obsession and pain by seeking
out professional help in the form of personal counseling (no not Rick Ross).
I suggest that further one way bombardments repeating the same old
jibberish, accusations, and abuse only further erodes your credibility (and
case) and is thus both dysfunctional and counter-productive to all parties.
I am reminded that we all carry our own pain with us (until we see it as the
burden that it really is) and thus we all have our own healing to do (no one
can do it for us). It is rather dependent not upon the actions of others,
but rather dependent upon our own actions and what we choose every day to
become "involved" with.
AIC2000 three months ago, your situation was shown to be very sad and full
of vindictive activity, hatred, and abusiveness. Has your situation become
any better through these tactics? Are you ready for a new approach or will
you continue as before like a broken record or an angry wounded bull?
What dost the morrow promise, unless we accept our own higher promise?
Sahaj Yogi
> I think _you_ are slandering her father, I think you'll be sued Sahaj
> Yogi if that's your real name.
Gosh now you are threateening a law suit to shut me up? But the truth is
already out isn't it Mr. Cheng?
I asked: "Now I have asked you many direct and sincere questions (many for
the third
time) so if you chose not to answer, I will assume that your purpose here is
not to dialogue. Hope that I have again foolishly consumed needless
bandwidth in this attempt."
Guess what Mr. Cheng, you didn't answer any of the basic questions about
Catherines unalienable right to worship as she pleases and to marry anyone
she wishes. Why do you deny that right to her -- or even access into your
home to claim her legal possessions? Why did you not only lock out your own
daughter, but also felt compelled to disconnect the door bell? This must go
pretty deep doesn't it? But in the account given on the internet, Catherine
was not always with her attorney and yet she was still refused any warmth or
admittance to her possessions. Please correct me if I am wrong, for I am
trying to make sense of this encounter which is published in its entirety at
Mr. Ross's web site for all to see.
No answer, aic2000. Why is that? Who are you trying to hurt again with all
this nonsense?
Sahaj Yogi
What is so appalling about you is that:
1) You deny your daughter's right to practice the religion of her choice
2) You deny her the right to marry the man that she desires
3) You deny entry into her (old home) to reclaim her personal belongings and
legal private documents
4) You claim that she was brainwashed but are unable to provide any proof
5) You slander IYS by claiming illegal activity, but the police are not
interested
6) You embarrass your daughter all over the internet
You do all this and then claim that is out of compassion -- because you love
her? You are in some big time denial, pal. Big time! Kinda thin ice like so
try to grab onto some balance there. Look at the above. I don't make any
money in this business. Now come on, what are you feeling? What is your true
motivation here and if it is rage and hatred what can be done about it? Why
does it exist? Is this love?
Let's try to think about Catherine for once and be grateful what you already
have. Try to put yourself in her shoes and try to empathize on how to truly
help some one out here besides your own anger. Thanks buddy -- you really
have many potential friends out here if you care to relax and let it all go!
Keval Dass
Sahaj Yogi wrote in message ...
>In this democracy if any law has been broken, then it is up to the police
to
>prosecute and no such prosecution has been started because the laws in this
>country recognize the freedom to pursue the religion of one's choice (a
>historical tradition in America as opposed to China).
>
>Hi
I am writing due to the statement above. Whoever wrote this has it
backwards. China had a tradition of religious freedom that stretched back
thousands of years and only came to an end with the raise of communism 50
long years ago, whereas America was settled by the persecuted for religious
or whatever reasons and when they got a foothold promptly began to hang and
burn those that were heretics. And it wasn't just in the 16th and 17th
centuries in New England, just ask the Mormons about religious freedom in
the states in the 19th century. These freedoms are only recent since the
mid to end of the 19th century when science and logic began to replace
religion as the dominant ideology of government (it is still in progress).
The majority of Chinese are very open minded when it comes to the spiritual
and take little for granted. They like to cover all there bets and will
create a smorgishborg of religious beliefs in order to lead a peaceful
prosperous life offending no god. That drove (and still drive) the
Christians crazy who descend on the middle kingdom in a frenzy of religious
conversion, . Its only with the infection of western imperialism and the
raise of a foreign ideology of European origin in China that we have the
situation we think we see today.
Sahaj Yogi
It was "i" who said; "the laws in this country recognize the freedom to
pursue the religion of one's choice (a historical tradition in America as
opposed to China)."
The principle of religious freedom (separation of church and state) actually
is in the constitution which has been my privilege to protect. That this
law of the land has been subverted to some degree is no doubt true, but as
compared to many other countries and times, the religious freedom in modern
America far surpasses the religious freedom of Medieval Europe, the Middle
East, and much of the ancient far East (China and Japan included).
Now you and I may have read different history books, but I remember very
clearly studying accounts in China where the common women (not only the
wives and especially the daughters) were given no independent voice or
freedom to act on their own at all (in any matter either religious or
otherwise). These sad stories abound not only throughout Chinese historical
documents, but even in Chinese novels, so I urge you to do more research in
this regard. Certainly I do not wish to point the finger only at China, as
Japan in many ways was even more restrictive and repressive in its even more
extreme patriarchal feudalism. I do not even wish to point out that it was a
"bad" situation or otherwise "judge" it in moral terms, other than to point
out its existence and its legacy. To some extent we are products of our
environment/society and experience and to the extent that we can overcome
the limitations, inherited ignorance, prejudices, and conditioning factors
of our time/place situation, the more free, creative, fulfilled, and
empowered we can become.
Indeed China has produced some remarkable yogis and I for one have studied
many Chinese arts ardently to advantage of which chi gong, Chinese yoga,
acupuncture, meditation, herbal medical systems, and breath/energy work are
only a small part. If anyone would like to read more about the "Miracle
That Was China" I recommend the works of Charles Needham ("Civilization and
Science in Ancient China"). However, I for one will not pretend that
religious or other democratic freedoms for men or especially for women (the
topic here was Catherine's right to chose her own religion) exist at any
comparable level as it does today in the USA and I find you challenging this
well established and documented "fact" odd indeed.
I have had the privilege of living with many modern Chinese (from mainland
China) and having met their friends and parents, I can tell you that family
tradition is relatively VERY strong with them and that it is still very
strongly patriarchal -- women offspring still are not very well valued for
instance even in modern day China (and much less so in ancient mostly rural
China). There seems to be general agreement on these points with both
Chinese and Western analysts.
I won't bother trying to educate you any further about what is already
covered in many books and well accepted by sociologists/anthropologists as
i will have to assume that you access to the above sources. Thank you for
communicating to me your prejudice XXXXXXXX errr, cough cough, your
"impartial" and "well researched" views on this delicate subject of the
inalienable right of freedom of religion which is guaranteed by the US
constitution and which it is a crime to deny.
Thank you
Keval Dass <longtal...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3fvB$XoI$GA....@news.giga.net.tw...
> China had a tradition of religious freedom that stretched back
> thousands of years and only came to an end with the raise of communism 50
> long years ago, whereas America was settled by the persecuted for
religious
> or whatever reasons and when they got a foothold promptly began to hang
and
> burn those that were heretics.
No that is not the factual history of either feudal or dynastic China, but
worse an even more skewed or corrupted "interpretation" and the following is
"why". The witch hunts happened BEFORE the US Constitution (late 18th
century). Thus the tradition of the witch hunts and religious prosecution is
not the same tradition as the US constitution which guarantees Freedom of
Religion (and separation of church and state), but rather it is its
antithesis.
Hey now, I am not saying that the law is by any means perfect (look at how
the US government still interferes with Native American religious practices
for instance), but relatively speaking it is a far cry apart from either
Feudal or Dynastic Patriarchal China ESPECIALLY SO IN REGARD TO WOMEN'
RIGHTS as well as democratic rights in general.
But I don't want to be drawn off topic (too many lately have been content
with getting off the subject of yoga). To me any environment that is
conducive to my practice of yoga is benign and desired while those which
would restrict my practice, I would definitely try to avoid. I thus like the
fact that these rights are recognized and guaranteed by law in the USA. Now
some one may say that I have been brainwashed and have not acted on your own
volition, for instance if you are a capitalist dupe, a choir boy goody too
shoes, born into an authoritarian orthodox religious family, or otherwise
have become coerced, intimidated, or pressured to adopt an "alien" system of
belief or erstwhile become obsequious. There can be many examples and
according to yoga, this indeed is our condition i.e., the vrittis
(fluctuations, disturbances, and limitations) have occluded our
consciousness (chit) and until these cease (nirodha) we will not rest in our
natural state (swarupa) -- Patanjali Yoga Sutras I.2-3.
So we all have been brain washed (bought into the lie of separateness --
bought into the forgetfulness and dysfunction) to an extant; while at the
same time it is up to us to wash out the impurities (kleshas) within that
are held onto by the fragmented mind (chit vritti).
In other words it would not be fair for me to say "the other" has been
brainwashed, while my brain sees "better", more clearly, because I would be
actually claiming authority over the other person i.e., that person sees
faulty, wrong, bad, imperfectly, falsely, while "I" am right, good, better,
correct, etc. Such an argument (all too common in today's insecure and
neurotic world) is the fruitless and counterproductive argument of a
religionist which is based on moralism. In short it is a diversion and a
waste of time since it comes from a need of comparative advantage and only
reinforces the illusion of separateness. Thus if we wish to progress in
spirit and consciousness, it is absolutely necessary to drop that and other
judgmental and discursive modalities (according to the Yoga Sutras).
Indeed we must all "wakeup" according to our own pace -- it can not be
forced upon another, but rather it is totally dependent upon us taking
responsibility for it and coming into our own transpersonal authority which
lies (mostly dormant and repressed) within all of us and which an authentic
yoga tradition attempts to activate, empower, and awaken.
In the above I have briefly tried to link yoga, one's right or freedom to
pursue one's own choice/brand of yoga, criticism of yoga paths, the social
histories of China and America as regards to the rights/freedoms of women,
and how to get "back on track from diversions of the mind (chit vritti).
These by themselves can be huge topics by themselves, but how can they (if
at all) lead us back to the Great Integrity (that which authentic yoga is
designed to intimately inter-connect us with.
It is indeed unfortunate that too many of us find that it is easier to
criticize what we do not understand and even more so to fear, condemn,
moralize, demonize, or attack against the very "reality" which threatens our
mask, conceit, delusion, or current hold unto false security/identification.
But unless our physical safety or liberty are actually threatened I feel
compelled to support other adults the freedom to practice their beliefs and
pursue what they call happiness regardless who may disapprove. From my
experience when people are acting spontaneously, creatively, naturally, and
cooperatively, my own spirits are naturally lifted up as well -- while the
aura of intimidation, fear, repression, authority, and obedience I find both
stifling and unpleasant, thus I attempt to maximize the former and minimize
the latter both for myself and others. This is not based on any high minded
reasoning or philosophy here, but rather it simply the expression of my
natural experience as i "think" i understand it at this time. Thus Keval, I
welcome dialogue as long as it is based on a sincere desire to dissolve
prejudices no rather passion to free oneself from all prejudice -- to learn
from each other and to open further.
Sahaj Yogi
Civilization in China" was Joseph Needham not Charles, my favorite
being:"Chemistry and Chemical Technology; Part V, Spagyrical Discovery and
Invention : Physiological Alchemy" (by
Joseph Needham and Lu Gwei-Djen) which is a good introduction into some of
the vast Taoist literature and methodologies dealing with Taoist Yoga and
obtaining the immortal body.
I also would like to thank Keval Dass for his kind attempt to enlighten and
educate this stubborn old man.
sar...@hotmail.com
While I seriously doubt whether your "research" into Integral Yoga and Yogaville
is designed to be any more than mere apologetics for this religion (and I use
that term loosely) and to denegrate a family that has been separated from their
daughter/sister, I will answer your many "questions".
>>I find a gross inconsistency with the father's argument. In his own words, he
>>repeatedly states that he was denied access to meet with his daughter, but
>>>>when she tries to meet with him and her family she is denied access unto her
>>home.
Sahaj, you obviously read the father's story but did not wish to understand it,
as it does not align with your "ziet geist". The family asked repeatedly to
meet with Catherine. They were refused each time. One Saturday morning, they
begin hearing banging on their house. They look outside and see their daughter,
wild eyed, banging with a broom. Larry Gross, the Yogaville attorney, was
nearby directing his actions and laughing. The police were later called by the
neighbors. The family has statements from their neighbors to that effect.
On Monday morning, when the mother tried to bring her son to school, Catherine
suddenly ran out of the bushes and attacked both her brother and her mother.
Her mother's leg was so badly wounded, she had to go to her doctor. The
brother's coat was badly torn. Again, Larry Gross was across the street
directing her actions. She kept looking at him to see what she should do next.
Again, they have statements of all family members and the neighbors.
To say that this girl never acted like this before in her life doesn't need to
be said. To say that she was being manipulated is also obvious to all sans
Sahaj Yoga.
>> > Gosh, this doesn't seem very a very kind, loving, nor consistent
>> behaviour by the family toward Catherine to me. Does it seem so to you? There
>> seems to be gross denial, contradiction, and lack of integrity on the side of
>> the family (in the family's own words as quoted above).
It is very kind, loving and consistent behavior, Sahaj. All the family has
wanted from the beginning of this has been to meet with their daughter ALONE.
Without Mr. Gross acting like a puppeteer. Without Yogaville lackeys, such as
yourself, manipulating and attempting to deceive all regarding the truth.
All the family has wanted has been to meet with their daughter, quietly and
alone. Not with Larry Gross directing her to pound on their door, or to hurt her
mother. If Yogaville allowed them to meet with her alone for a few days, it
would all be resolved. But Yogaville (and you) have so many excuses, so many
reasons why she can not. She is BUSY. Too busy to meet with them. Too busy
working for free for Integral Yoga. What a travesty.
There was an agreement signed by all. If that agreement had been adhered to by
Yogaville, this all would have been a distant memory. But they lied, as they
seemingly always do. They deceived. They said that Larry Gross was fired from
Yogaville, when he continued to contact Catherine each evening from IYI in New
York City. He spoke with her for several hours each evening, in direct violation
of the agreement this supposed "holy" man had signed. What a joke.
>>In addition there exists the pecuniary interest of Mr. Ross which has been
>>>>admitted and which it is not proper to foster here in this newsgroup.
The Cheng family attempted to call their daughter from January through April,
but was unable to speak with her even ONCE!!!! They only got emails saying that
she was busy and well. However, NONE of these emails sounded at all like
Catherine. They sounded like a different person.
Mr. Cheng had tried to see his daughter in Yogaville, but was THROWN OFF THE
PREMISES!!!
The family then sought the help of Mr. Ross.
I would suggest that if you are seeking pecuniary interest here, it falls
directly within Yogaville and Integral Yoga. They took a girl with an
incredible future in front of her, who had a boyfriend who loved her greatly,
who had incredible dreams...and destroyed them to benefit the IYI organization.
Apparently Larry Gross wanted Catherine, and all IYI gurus must get what they
want. She is now working for the organization, for free (of course).
>> In addition, I have found that yoga9900, gurdjjeff, saraho, and our
>> old friend aic2000 are all fictitious names for the same person whose only
>> posting history has been to vindictively harass and harangue IYS and
>> their supporters.
Does this make you feel somewhat stronger? Thinking that these many people are,
in fact, one? I guess it is important, Sahaj, that you feel strong. What you
should discuss is what is said. Not how many people are saying it. If 1,000
people tell a lie, it is still a lie. Obviously, you consider yourself an
Integral Yoga supporter. It oozes from your very soul.
>>Now you may have the requisite neurotic energy for such a
>>deception, but is all this petty repetitious lack of dialogue and
>>integrity serving anybody except for you to transfer your guilt (and hence
>>responsibility) in this matter onto the very organization who
>>liberated your daughter from your mean and abusive grasp? I pity you, more
>>>>than your poor daughter.
The family has graciously posted this information to warn people of the
potential harm of the Integral Yoga Institute and Yogaville to them "and their
loved ones". The family wants to make certain that what they have experienced
with this organization is never again experienced by anyone else.
Sahaj, we know where you stand. Believe it or not, these postings were not
designed for you alone. It is important that the American people learn about
this organization and how it treats people and families.
My understanding is that several other families have come forward to tell about
their experiences with this organization, and that additional national media
stories are being readied.
Sahaj Yogi
Well if it isn't Sarahoji! Welcome back, buddy where you been?. It's been
quiet here since your last visit! The KKK convention over so soon?
You know Saraho, if this was Czarist Russia you and aic2000, john,
gurdjjeif, yoga 9900, and RR could ride into yogaville perform a righteous
cleansing (pogrom), but too bad for you guys -- only in your dreams! Cheers!
You know, you guys have avoided my question now six times (count them) which
is (in case you missed it the first five times): DOESN'T CATHERINE HAVE ANY
RIGHTS? These rights in this country include freedom of religion and freedom
to pursue happiness and that translates to practice yoga and marry the man
that she loves. What about it?
Now, I can see why RR is in the equation as he preys off confused/bewildered
families like Mr. Cheng and I know why the fundamentalists feel threatened,
and why authoritarian patriarchal control freak parents are involved, so
what are you? Any of the above or ..?
Don't tell me you here for Catherine's freedom while denying her basic
rights. What's offensive in people like you is that you are so unconscious
that you actually advocate the subversion of the basic law of the land in
the internet. She has the right and to deny her that right is clearly
against the law -- and that is why RR has been restrained in the past. Now I
was taught that advocacy or conspiracy to commit a felony is actually a
felony also so I want to get it straight from you do you advocate taking
away Catherines's rights under the constitution or any other illegal
activity?
So I have asked you three "important" questions above, but will you answer
any one of them?
Now the question of Catherine's freedom. You say that you care for her and
want her freedom. Are you serious? Your only defense from your despicable
conspiracy here to deny Catherine her rights is to assert that she is
brainwashed or crazy. Gosh that's what we say when we want to demean the
other person or group's testimony or credibility, not to liberate them or
let them be heard. So your credibility here is not very strong utilizing
such a tactic. Which brings me to another logical conclusion. I was taught
that to make an accurate and fair judgement, I was to gather impartial data.
If there were two sides of an argument, I was to listen to both doing
in-depth analysis. Only then could I make a fair, just, and accurate
decision. The opposite approach is called prejudice and ignorance, which are
the basis of bigotry, both of whom have a psychological basis which I will
not get into detail here). Now the point is let's hear from Catherine.
What does she say? Then after hearing from her, how can you or anyone else
feel obligated to imprison her in a pysychiatric clinic because she would
rather study yoga and be a yogi than to go to law school and be a lawyer.
Is this evidence of being brainwashed and deranged? Here is your own
description from your previous post: " One Saturday morning, they begin
hearing banging on their house. They look outside and see their daughter,
wild eyed, banging with a broom. Larry Gross, the Yogaville attorney, was
nearby directing his actions and laughing. The police were later called by
the neighbors..On Monday morning, when the mother tried to bring her son to
school, Catherine suddenly ran out of the bushes and attacked both her
brother and her mother. Her mother's leg was so badly wounded, she had to
go to her doctor. The brother's coat was badly torn. Again, Larry Gross was
across the street directing her actions. She kept looking at him to see what
she should do next."
Now this is your own account. I ask you how do you know? How did the mother
become wounded. How did Catherine attack her brother and mother? What were
the extent of the mother's wounds? You say; " Larry Gross, the Yogaville
attorney, was nearby directing his actions and laughing . Larry Gross was
directing her actions, yet no where on RR web site this was said. In fact it
was said that Mr. Gross was nearby but silent. Don't you feel it is
appropriate for a husband to accompany his wife especially in a situation
like that? I certainly would if my wife were involved with bigoted relatives
like that. of course I would have recommended to write them off and forget
them! It sounds rather to me that Cathy has a lot of spunk!
You continue; " All the family has wanted from the beginning of this has
been to meet with their daughter ALONE. Without Mr. Gross acting like a
puppeteer. Without Yogaville lackeys, such as yourself, manipulating and
attempting to deceive all regarding the truth.
All the family has wanted has been to meet with their daughter, quietly and
alone. Not with Larry Gross directing her to pound on their door, or to hurt
her mother. If Yogaville allowed them to meet with her alone for a few days,
it would all be resolved. But Yogaville (and you) have so many excuses, so
many reasons why she can not. She is BUSY. Too busy to meet with them. Too
busy working for free for Integral Yoga. What a travesty."
I see Mr. Gross is a puppeteer, Cathy is a mother abuser and has her mind
controlled by Eastern magic, she is brain washed and deluded, and I am
trying to deceive them and everyone else also!
Boy IYS is more powerful than I could have imagined. Would make a great
horror movie also. Do you have the movie rights? Your world sounds scary
that such things can occur -- do you really believe this nonsense that other
people have the ability to control us mentally like a puppeteer? Of course
this Satanic model would explain why the Eastern cults are spreading in the
West, now all we gotta do is link it with communism (gosh that's old hat
now), semetic races or barbarian impurities, or maybe drugs (except drugs
are forbidden at Yogaville), any way something like that and then we've got
something!
Saraho, you said in your last post, "I will answer your many "questions".
But you didn't. I have some serious and pivotal ones above. What about it?
Again I find a gross inconsistency with the father's argument. In his own
words, he repeatedly states that he was denied access to meet with his
daughter, but when she tries to meet with him and her family she is denied
access unto her home and to her personal and private belongings inside of
it. She is not given a family welcome. Now this is from RR's own website who
is employed by Mr. Cheng, and this is supposed to Mr. Cheng's own words is
this not correct?
Again this is Mr. Cheng's words from RR's web site and I did not edit
anything. I find your interpretation of this event both callous and
hardened. My heart goes out to Catherine and I applaud her, but I can not
have sympathy for her parents.
It was said by one of your cohorts: "Swami Satchidananda has committed many
atrocities - crimes against humanity. He has used Yoga to further his own
wealth and worldly pleasures in the name of peace.
In order to then to act as the devil's advocate the following is from the
Integral Yoga Institute Newsletter, Nov-Dec 1999, San Francisco issue.
"Swami Satchidananda (84 years old) does not belong to any one faith, group,
or country. Dedicated to the principle that "Truth is One", Paths are Many",
he goes wherever he is asked to serve, bringing together people of all
backgrounds and beliefs to learn respect for all the different paths and to
realize their common spirit and the universality of their goal.
Swami Satchidananda has sponsored innumerable ecumenical symposia, retreats,
and worship services all over the world. He meets with spiritual and
governmental leaders and other dignitaries, among them: H.H. Pope Paul II,
the Dalai Lama, Indira Gandhi, Mother Teresa, U Thant, the President of the
United States .. He opened the Light of Truth Universal Shrine (LOTUS) in
1986. LOTUS, located in Virginia, is dedicated to the light of all faiths
and to world peace and stands as a beautiful example of the universal
teachings of Sri Swami Satchidananda."
"She is now working for the organization, for free (of course)."
Good for Catherine -- good for the world! Just admit it, you don't care for
Catherine at all do you? Get off the pretentiousness Saraho. She went
against the father's system, didn't tow the party line, and you and your
buddies are going to punish her, just like she was a young disobedient
child. The only problem is that she is an adult now and is invoking her
rights! So wake up -- hands off and please stop the abuse!
Just in case you are interested, this is not "unusual" and there is "help"
out there for dysfunctional families in denial, but the first step is for
you to acknowledge the problem. Good luck!
Sahaj Yogi
servuices for families with brainwashed children he advertises various books
one of which is: "Cults in our Midst"
Jossey-Bass Publishers San Franciso
By Margaret Thaler Singer (with Janja Lalich)
Excerpt from Chapter Six: Physiological Persuasion Techniques.
Meditation -- Meditation may not always be good for you
There are many kinds of meditation being promoted by various individuals,
groups, and cults. Like may cultic groups, meditation cults have varying
degrees of membership and commitment, which become known to members only as
time goes on. Those who sample only the beginning course may have little or
no knowledge of what a long-term association may entail.
A number of persons in the United States have brought legal suits for
damages allegedly suffered as a consequence of their participation in
meditation programs. Settlements to the individuals were made by the
organization offering the programs.
Meditation Casualties
The forgoing brief of the work of several researchers supports my
observations based on interviewing or providing therapy to more than seventy
persons who had meditated from four to seventeen years in various groups.
A few examples will illustrate these former members' range of impairments,
some of which remain after many years out of the cultic group.
Blackout, lack of sensory filters, and anxiety attacks.
Fog and space
Altered states and memory difficulties
Loss of boundaries
Inappropriate and unrelated bursts of emotions
Muscle jerking
Long term emotional flatness
Seizures
Visual hallucinations "
This short ad ends thusly, "During any meditation or relaxation experiences,
if you feel any mental or physical discomfort, I recommend that you stop and
consult a professional."
So according to this site we can glean that not only is yoga dangerous, but
meditation is dangerous also. Yep, I'd hafta agree!
Sahaj Yogi
Fifth Column News Special Update!
Nazis attack alt.halocaust.survivors and proclaim the ultimate victory!
Alt.support.dysfunctional.family.survivors.in.recovery attacked by roaming
band of drunken and angry abusive fathers!
Yogi in mountain Himalayan cave near epicenter remains unmoved by a whopping
8.7!
Update: Monday 0801 GMT
Saraho accompanied by the notorious gang of five and supported by RR, the
intl. association for gender and child abuse, the foundation for the
preservation of authoritarian fathers, the association in support of
dysfunctional families, Fundamentalism Intl., the Group in Support of a
Distant God and Distant Father, the Society for Moral Supremacy and Victory
Over Evil, Father Knows Best Unlimited, and their allied front research
foundations stepped up their assault on a noted yoga bootlicking lackey on
alt.yoga this Sunday. Unfortunately no casualties have yet been reported,
but stay tuned for more gory details which most likely will not end until
final judgement day!
When the RR web site was searched for the central message that was being
sent, one unifying theme that stood out -- Don't meditate, it can be
dangerous and avoid yoga at all costs (even more dangerous)!
"Trust the majority authority with money" (potential customers) and "don't
talk back to those who are in charge" were also central themes, but overall
it seems that RR has a good handle on the problem and can be trusted to
provide "expert" help in your hopeless predicament (especially if your kid
is "bad" and hangs with the "wrong" crowd). In other words YOU didn't make
any mistakes and either your kid has been drugged and brainwashed by the
group and/or the kid is now mentally incompetent. In either case the fault
lies elswhere (with the devil mostly not with you. In fact the current "Ross
Report" coincidentally focuses on the threatening activities of yet another
weird yoga teacher, an 84 year old Indian Swami assocaited with the New Age
Movement and Woodstock who is said to possess supernatural powers capable of
brainwashing intelligent young people in the time span of only two weeks!
It's a scary world out there without such people like RR around!
And that's the only way it is!
sar...@hotmail.com
where he and Integral Yoga/Yogaville are coming from.
>
>Well if it isn't Sarahoji! Welcome back, buddy where you been?. It's been
>quiet here since your last visit! The KKK convention over so soon?
>
but didn't find me there. Ever hear such hateful speech from such an advocate
of spirituality? Makes you wonder whether his version and/or Integral Yoga's
version of spirituality is aryan.
>
>
>You know Saraho, if this was Czarist Russia you and aic2000, john,
>gurdjjeif, yoga 9900, and RR could ride into yogaville perform a righteous
>cleansing (pogrom), but too bad for you guys -- only in your dreams! Cheers!
>
>
forward and tell people? Or would you sit quietly and allow such abuses to go
on. We know what Sahaj Yoga thinks. "My Integral Yoga, right or wrong!!"
>
>
>You know, you guys have avoided my question now six times (count them) which
>is (in case you missed it the first five times): DOESN'T CATHERINE HAVE ANY
>RIGHTS? These rights in this country include freedom of religion and freedom
>to pursue happiness and that translates to practice yoga and marry the man
>that she loves. What about it?
>
and freedom to pursue happiness. And everyone is entitled to personal freedom.
That is exactly why Integral Yoga/Yogaville must answer those very same
questions. Catherine had a wonderful life when she entered Yogaville. She was
happy. She was to be married. She chose the law as her profession and was very
good at it, having won several scholarships. She was in the process of learning
Spanish because she had become devoted to helping Spanish-speaking peoples of
the Southwest. She entered Yogaville to relax for a month. While there, she
called her father (with whom she always had a super relationship) and asked him
to enroll her for the next term of school. Five days later, she called to say
that she was never returning home and hung up abruptly. The family tried to
contact her by telephone but was unable to. For FOUR MONTHS the family tried
calling her, only to get, in response, strange email messages which said that
she was happy in her new life. The messages said nothing about her change in
religion or name or anything of the sort. So again, if Catherine went to her
family and said that this was the life she wanted, no one would have objected.
What we have here however smacks more of a virtual kidnapping than a personal
religious conversion. When her father went to talk with her, Yogaville
officials threw him off the grounds of this "peaceful community." There is much
more here than you'd like people to know about. The family also has her diary,
which details all of this, and which is scheduled to be published in the
national media shortly.
>
>
>Now, I can see why RR is in the equation as he preys off confused/bewildered
>families like Mr. Cheng and I know why the fundamentalists feel threatened,
>and why authoritarian patriarchal control freak parents are involved, so
>what are you? Any of the above or ..?
>
>
Mr. Ross was contacted by the family for help after attempting to speak with
their daughter for 4 months and receiving no response from Yogaville. The only
response they received, and continue to receive, was/are threatened lawsuits. By
the way, all of Catherine's mutual fund savings are all gone. I wonder who has
them now? Rick Ross or Integral Yoga?
>
>
>Don't tell me you here for Catherine's freedom while denying her basic
>rights. What's offensive in people like you is that you are so unconscious
>that you actually advocate the subversion of the basic law of the land in
>the internet. She has the right and to deny her that right is clearly
>against the law -- and that is why RR has been restrained in the past. Now I
>was taught that advocacy or conspiracy to commit a felony is actually a
>felony also so I want to get it straight from you do you advocate taking
>away Catherines's rights under the constitution or any other illegal
>activity?
>
>
Rick Ross wants, not what her father wants, not what Yogaville wants. We have
some idea of what she wanted up until the time she left for Yogaville from her
diary writings. She wanted to marry her boyfriend, become a lawyer, and help
the poor. Devoting her life to Yogaville was not in her diary. Changing her
religion or her name was NOT in her diary either. Unfortunately, since entering
Yogaville, Catherine apparently has no personal freedom anymore.
>
>
>So I have asked you three "important" questions above, but will you answer
>any one of them?
>
>
>
>Now the question of Catherine's freedom. You say that you care for her and
>want her freedom. Are you serious?
>
>
>
>
>Your only defense from your despicable conspiracy here to deny Catherine her
>>rights is to assert that she is brainwashed or crazy. Gosh that's what we say
>>when we want to demean the other person or group's testimony or credibility,
>>not to liberate them or let them be heard. So your credibility here is not very
>>strong utilizing such a tactic.
>
>
outset was to make certain that Catherine was making up her own mind. If you
had a daughter who told you that she wanted to be, say, an anthropologist, and
that her goal in life was to marry another anthropologist and to dig for
artifacts in New Guinea for the rest of her life, I am certain that you would
accept her goals. Similarly, if she then went to a "yoga school" for a month's
relaxation, called you and told you that she would return in a week, then
suddenly stopped talking to you, wrote only emails that said that you beat her
as a child, said that she always hated anthropology, said that she was marrying
someone she knew for 2 weeks, changed her name and religion, stopped talking to
ALL of her former friends, etc, well I would venture to say that most people
(not you, of course, Sahaj) would be concerned about their daughter and try to
help her. This is that situation.
>
>
>Which brings me to another logical conclusion. I was taught
>that to make an accurate and fair judgement, I was to gather impartial data.
>If there were two sides of an argument, I was to listen to both doing
>in-depth analysis. Only then could I make a fair, just, and accurate
>decision. The opposite approach is called prejudice and ignorance, which are
>the basis of bigotry, both of whom have a psychological basis which I will
>not get into detail here). Now the point is let's hear from Catherine.
>
>
boyfriend can be heard repeating that phrase: "Let Catherine Speak". She came
to NYC from Yogaville, Virginia to hear Swami Satchidananda speak. In so doing,
she passed by her boyfriend and her entire family without a word. They called
to her repeatly to speak to them, but she avoided them all and never came out to
talk to them. Tell you something? It tells me plenty.
(See http://www.rickross.com/reference/yogaville/yogaville27.html )
>
>
>What does she say? Then after hearing from her, how can you or anyone else
>feel obligated to imprison her in a pysychiatric clinic because she would
>rather study yoga and be a yogi than to go to law school and be a lawyer.
>
>
they have.
>
>
>Is this evidence of being brainwashed and deranged? Here is your own
>description from your previous post: " One Saturday morning, they begin
>hearing banging on their house. They look outside and see their daughter,
>wild eyed, banging with a broom. Larry Gross, the Yogaville attorney, was
>nearby directing his actions and laughing. The police were later called by
>the neighbors..On Monday morning, when the mother tried to bring her son to
>school, Catherine suddenly ran out of the bushes and attacked both her
>brother and her mother. Her mother's leg was so badly wounded, she had to
>go to her doctor. The brother's coat was badly torn. Again, Larry Gross was
>across the street directing her actions. She kept looking at him to see what
>she should do next."Now this is your own account. I ask you how do you know?
>
>
so upset by this that they called the police. And again, Catherine went to one
neighbor saying that she was looking for her mother. When the neighbor (who has
known this woman and her family her entire life) asked her what her mother's
name was, she couldn't answer. She forgot what her mother's name was. All she
could tell the neighbor was, "She's a Chinese lady". Her mother's name is
Catherine. This is from a statement written by the neighbor in question. To
say that Catherine, who never acted in a violent manner, wasn't acting like
herself and seemed confused is putting it mildly. Some neighbors thought that
she looked like she was on drugs. Yogaville, the peaceful community?
>
>
>How did the mother
>become wounded. How did Catherine attack her brother and mother? What were
>the extent of the mother's wounds?
>
>
about 6:45 am, Catherine leaped from behind a bush and attacked them. (normal
behavior for you Sahaj, but not for the rest of us..I don't know anyone who
lurks behind bushes at 6:30 am) The brother's coat was totally destroyed by
Catherine's nails. She ripped into the coat with them. Her mother's leg was
smashed by the door that Catherine used to slam against it. She went to her
physician for medication. It was swollen, black and blue, and difficult to walk
on for a week or more.
>
>
>You say; " Larry Gross, the Yogaville
>attorney, was nearby directing his actions and laughing . Larry Gross was
>directing her actions, yet no where on RR web site this was said. In fact it
>was said that Mr. Gross was nearby but silent. Don't you feel it is
>appropriate for a husband to accompany his wife especially in a situation
>like that?
>
>
Also normally, people call before coming to visit. In this case, the family
received a letter from their "daughter" just 3 days before this visit which said
that she never wanted to speak with them again unless they did everything that
"she" demanded. Three days later, she was banging on their door with a broom
handle. Given the circumstances surrounding this sorry affair, I totally
disagree with you. I think she should have told them that she was coming so
that they could have met with her alone. Remember that when the father met with
them in January, Catherine only smiled and said nothing. Larry Gross did all of
the talking.
>
>
>Boy IYS is more powerful than I could have imagined. Would make a great
>horror movie also. Do you have the movie rights?
>
>
>
>
>Your world sounds scary that such things can occur -- do you really believe
>>this nonsense that other people have the ability to control us mentally like a
>>puppeteer?
>
>
usually used for positive purposes however, such as in helping people stop
smoking or to cure phobias. However, with unscrupulous people, it can also be
used to convince someone they were beaten as a child, that they hate their life,
that they don't like the school they are in, or their fiancee, etc.
>
>
>Again I find a gross inconsistency with the father's argument. In his own
>words, he repeatedly states that he was denied access to meet with his
>daughter, but when she tries to meet with him and her family she is denied
>access unto her home and to her personal and private belongings inside of
>it. She is not given a family welcome. Now this is from RR's own website who
>is employed by Mr. Cheng, and this is supposed to Mr. Cheng's own words is
>this not correct?
>
>
January in which he was told that his daughter was changing her entire life.
When he went to see her, Larry Gross did all of the talking, and Catherine
mysteriously disappeared. For four months, the family tried calling her at
Yogaville but could not get through. All they got were email threats -
lawsuits, that the family would be penniless, never seeing her again, etc.
After one such email threat, that they would never see her future grandchildren
ever and that such grandchildren would never learn of their grandparents - three
days later, she was knocking on the door with a broom. She never called to say
she was coming, never asked if she could come. Nothing. The parents wanted to
speak with her, alone, and in a quiet manner. Believe it or not, they were
quite intimidated and scared of that scenario, and as it turned out later (with
the attack of her mother and brother), rightfully so.
>
>
>"Swami Satchidananda (84 years old) does not belong to any one faith, group,
>or country. Dedicated to the principle that "Truth is One", Paths are Many",
>he goes wherever he is asked to serve, bringing together people of all
>backgrounds and beliefs to learn respect for all the different paths and to
>realize their common spirit and the universality of their goal.
>
>
this abuse. With respect to Satchidananda, I would say that people are not gods,
and that people are not perfect. People often fall short of their aspirations.
It appears that there are many people in Yogaville, Virginia, and Integral Yoga,
who "fall short" of the Swami's stated goals.
>
>
>Just admit it, you don't care for Catherine at all do you? Get off the
>>pretentiousness Saraho. She went against the father's system, didn't tow the
>>party line, and you and your buddies are going to punish her, just like she was
>>a young disobedient child. The only problem is that she is an adult now and is
>>invoking her rights! So wake up -- hands off and please stop the abuse!
>
>
wrong" is translated into "Integral Yoga, Right or Wrong" in his way of
thinking....if you call that thinking.
>
>
>Just in case you are interested, this is not "unusual" and there is "help"
>out there for dysfunctional families in denial, but the first step is for
>you to acknowledge the problem. Good luck!
>
People need to know the truth, and decide for themselves.
Sahaj yog
dialogue (let's hope) between those who feel that Catherine Cheng has
been brainwashed into yoga or has chosen to do so as an exercise of
free choice and will. If you dear reader do not wish to follow such a
dialogue, please feel free to filter this subject thread and/or the
participants out with your news reader software. Warning; this is a
LONG post.
Saraho;
Thanks for a well reasoned and detailed response (minus the absurdities
of course). I've been out of town and also am involved in many other
projects. I am not sure that we will ever agree or even mutually
benefit from this discussion, but I will give it one more try.
It seems to me that the main disagreement/contention is whether or not
Catherine has been brainwashed or not. Mr. Cheng and you say that she
has; ergo she has no right to decide her own fate, she is not
capable, or rather someone else is doing her thinking for her (the
brainwashers). But only one thing is certain at least i.e., that her
father is no longer doing her thinking for her alas. In this latter
case, I find solace.
I could go into detail about the other related issues, but that would
simply miss this main point i.e., is Catherine brainwashed or not. You
conclude that although she was intelligent she became
brainwashed/indoctrinated by the Swami and is thus no longer making her
own decisions. That is a convenient means of discrediting the other
person and taking away their constitutional rights, but can
this "reasoning" be supported? Certainly not legally nor do I feel that
it has any factual basis as well. This assumption simply is a last
ditch attempt for the family to re-assert their control and further
demean Catherine. I will elaborate.
You use the "reasoning" that she acted irrationally and erratically as
proof, but one could easily conclude that Mr. Cheng has and is. For
instance her mother did not hurt her leg as a result of Catherine
pushing the door closed on it (it was Catherine after all who was
trying to get into the house not close the door). You said that the
grandmother and neighbors took Catherine in and fed her, but why did
not her own family? You said that Mr. Cheng was denied access to talk
with Catherine alone at Yogaville, but made no attempt to do so in New
York, but rather his actions proved the opposite. If Catherine was
distraught and upset, what did the family do to alleviate her condition
then? The family's statement only further disassociated themselves from
recognizing Catherine as a sentient and sensitive human being capable
of emotions and feelings. The "judgement" of Catherine being
brainwashed remains not only unproved, but rather is rather a well
known contentious ploy to discredit, disempower, demean, and subjugate
an opposing view.
What really gives it away is that, you and Mr. Cheng repeatedly lament
that: "she could have become a lawyer" and that she had a bright future
ahead of her and instead see what has become of her? She has become a
yogini instead. Now do you see the cross cultural value judgement
involved here i.e., lawyer is better than yogi. She knew that her
father would so pre-judge her decision in that way, and have a strong
reaction opposing or against her decision as he has proven to be a
very controlling father. Now this is really not just a conflict of
values (lawyers is good-- yogi is bad) but more so who is in control
and who is disobedient -- who knows best and who should kowtow. This
is a common dysfunctional family feud and I suggest that in such
families things do not always appear as they really are to an outsider.
I refer you to a recent good book on the subject by Dan Neuharth, "If
You Had Controlling Parents: How to Make Peace".
Also other promising books; "Toxic Parents : Overcoming Their Hurtful
Legacy and Reclaiming Your Life" by Susan Forward; "In Sheep's
Clothing : Understanding and Dealing With Manipulative People" by
George K. Simon; "Stop Being Manipulated : How to Neutralize the
Bullies, Bosses, and Brutes in Your Life" by George H. Green, Carolyn
Cotter; "Emotional Unavailability : Recognizing It, Understanding It,
Avoiding Its Trap" by Bryn C. Collins; "Why You Behave in Ways You
Hate : And What You Can Do About It", by Irwin Gootnick,
M.D.; "Dancing With Yesterday's Shadows : When Where You'Ve Been Is
Keeping You from Where You from Where You Want to Go" by David G.
Beighley, "Abused Women and Survivor Therapy : A Practical Guide for
the Psychotherapist", by Lenore E. A. Walker; "The Domestic Assault of
Women : Psychological and Criminal Justice Perspectives" by Donald G.
Dutton; "When Violence Begins at Home : A Comprehensive Guide to
Understanding and Ending Domestic Abuse" by Karen Wilson; "Adult
Children : The Secrets of Dysfunctional Families" by John Friel, Linda
Friel; "Confronting the Victim Role : Healing from an Abusive
Childhood" by Barry McCarthy and Emily McCarthy; "Deep Blue Funk and
Other Stories : Portraits of Teenage Parents" by Daniel B.
Frank; "Violence Against Children in the Family and the Community" by
Penelope K. Trickett (Editor), Cynthia D. Schellenbach
(Editor); "Families in Perpetual Crisis" by Richard Kagan and
Shirley Schlosberg; "Families in Recovery : Coming Full Circle" by
Carolyn Seval Brooks and by Kathleen Fitzgerald Rice; "Family
Psychopathology : The Relational Roots of Dysfunctional Behavior" by
Luciano L'Abate (Editor); "Forgiving Our Parents Forgiving Ourselves :
Healing Adult Children of Dysfunctional Families" by David, Dr. Stoop,
James Masteller; "Freeing Ourselves from Our Family of Origin : The
Houdini Experience" by Gary Embelton(Editor), et al; "Getting Out : An
Escape Manual for Abused Women" by Kathy Cawthon; "Healing the Child
Within : Discovery and Recovery for Adult Children of Dysfunctional
Families" by Charles L. Whitfield; "Secrets of Your Family Tree :
Healing for Adult Children of Dysfunctional Families" by Dave
Carder; "Stories That Heal : Reparenting Adult Children of
Dysfunctional Families Using Hypnotic Stories in Psychotherapy" by Lee
Wallas; "Adult Children of Dysfunctional Families", by Barbara C.
Wallace; "Adult-Child Research and Experience : Personal and
Professional Legacies of a Dysfunctional Co-Dependent Family
(Developments in Clinical Psychology)", by Robert E. Haskell; "Secrets
of Your Family Tree : Healing for Adult Children of Dysfunctional
Families" by Dave Carder, et al; "Adult Children : The Secrets of
Dysfunctional Families" by John Friel and Linda Friel
And especially, "Chinese Playground : A Memoir" by Bill Lee, where Mr.
Lee confronts the ghost of his own dysfunctional childhood (within an
ABC/FBI Chinese culture) when he becomes a father and becomes aware of
the legacy of this syndrome..
Now this is a two way street. The parent has to make at least some
honest attempt to understand the "reasoning" of their (now adult) child
and be prepared to honor it. I don't think Mr. Cheng has reached this
stage yet as he is demeaning Catherine entirely in this, while in fact
she may have chosen a very noble field (as compared to being a lawyer)
at least to some people. And this is precisely where people like RR
make their money, from control freak bigoted parents who can't believe
in anything other than their own values (while everyone else is nuts or
brainwashed). There is no tolerance in such bigotry.
Now all Mr. Cheng or you have to do is to go to the IYS and talk with
their people about yoga and you will find that they are intelligent
individuals who are neither crazy nor evil. They are only different. I
know you haven't done this, and since you haven't, does this make your
investigation more or less in-depth, accurate, or fair? I would have to
say less.
The above list is only the tip of an iceberg regarding the plethora of
books and therapy aimed at the hurt, psychic wounds, and negative
imprints (scars) which are the result of family manipulation,
authoritarianism, and control issues (of which they must be exorcised
for them not to be promulgated in the future by their very victims).
No I have not all the above books (but a few are very helpful to those
who are sincere upon separating fact from fiction and getting on with
their lives). To those that are so enmeshed they feel very confused and
often frightened, but authentic therapy is aimed at coming to terms
with one's present situation, understanding causes, reaching clarity,
and then freeing oneself from past baggage and bogeymen. In other
words, this is a very common problem, but because of the mechanism
of "denial" which is a form of self inauthenticity, it is most often
ignored and neglected until a "serious" problem forces recognition.
Even then the mechanism of guilt and blame often interfere
indefinitely.
In this situation this analysis can be applied especially when denial
like "I didn't do anything wrong" or my family is perfect (even is I do
have to beat them), the "evil Swami made her do it" applies. This
denial is most strong in "don't let the neighbor's hear you" or "what
will the neighbor's think?", or other attempts at conforming behaviour
of the other person to one's own standards through the manipulative
techniques of humiliation, embarrassment, intimidation, and/or verbal
abuse or threat. In short children are almost helpless at birth being
entirely dependent upon their parent's environment. They learn the best
they can on how to feel secure and survive in a confusing and often
threatening barrage of adult words and touch (or lack of such) coming
from adults who themselves are most often unresolved and unhealed
victims of dysfunctional families -- who are ignorant, in denial,
hurtful, suffering and to a varying extent still processsing their own
trauma/drama most often by running away from it in denial and/or even
justifying/defending it. These patterns of abuse and manipulation most
often continue into adulthood unconsciously and are most commonly left
unquestioned. They appear complex only because the individual who
carries it around has conflicting feelings about
recognizing/acknowledging their own past unresolved pain, fear, and or
and anger/resentment.
This is not to blame the adults or children(they do the best they
know), but the above is to simply disclose that such difficulties occur
at a very early age. This is especially valuable because it is well
known that especially in dysfunctional families DENIAL is widespread
(both amongst the perpetuators and the victims. Hence the "perfect"
family doesn't address the problem until the wife's black eyes can not
be covered over by makeup anymore, the child's scars are discovered by
the gym instructor, a quiet loner goes mass killer at his high school
playground, a battered wife kills her husband I his sleep, etc.
Another huge problem is that parents take on the "responsibility" often
as a moral obligation of behaviour modification of the child. They are
the first indoctrinators and brainwashers so to speak. Every thing
is "ok" i.e., the child is accepted, loved, rewarded, and not
punished as long as they know and obey the rules, don't rock the
boat, play the game, adapt, and conform . Hence the authoritarian
punishment oriented family easily becomes the dysfunctional family when
the parents demand "law and order" and behaviour modification from the
child in terms of reward and punishment or unfeeling mechanics as if
the child were a robot, a rat in training, or some mathematical/logical
entity rather than a sensitive and spiritual entity with feelings.
The more estranged, spiritually alienated, insensitive, materialistic,
abused, and extracted from their own feelings and childhood the adult
is, the more the abuse is manifested toward the child. The child has no
choice in such situations other than to cope or rebel; but when they
rebel only more abuse is hurled their way.
The next indoctrinator/brainwasher that are acknowledged as authorities
are select respected friends of the family, teachers at school,
priests or religious authorities, and TV/radio. Although peers, books,
nature, and other experiences certainly influence the child, they are
not invested with the sanction/validation of authority i.e., they are
not usually recognized by the parents to be valid. Here the values of
the parents become the values of the young child unless the child is
encouraged to take on their own values; i.e., the parents are not so
insecure and dysfunctional as to see other beliefs or values as
threats. Thus in a dysfunctional family most often "other' religions,
value systems, mores, cultural values, ethnicities, cultures, races,
nationalities, and so forth are not only avoided but most often suspect
or condemned.
So in particular if an "outside" teacher or religious authority figure
would teach/preach something foreign to the "family's predilection it
would be viewed as a threat to the authority figure of the family
(father/mother) and discouraged if not forbidden. Here we have two very
different directions of behaviour modification -- "acceptable"
behaviour to one person/group is unacceptable to the other. This is
good -- this is growing up i.e., questioning authority, learning
critical thinking, rebelling if necessary, and then after learning
eventually how to think for themselves being creative and free. No this
is not simple psychological transference where an obsequious person
simply trades in one dogma or authority figure for another, a husband
for a father, a Swami for a priest, one demagogue for another, or one
authoritarian religion, philosophy, political alliance, belief
system, or dogma for another, etc. rather we are now talking about
FREE and independent thought -- a process many authoritarian parents
never went through themselves because they were victims of their own
parent's dysfunctionality.
Now in this case the Swami in question is a combination of both a
teacher and a religious/moral preceptor whose teaching allowed
Catherine to extract herself from the past patterns of manipulation,
exploitation, and abuse. As a matter of fact the essential teachings of
yoga (especially in this school) deals directly with how to eliminate
all past conditionings, past imprints, prejudice, modifications of the
mind, fear, and ideologies per se and thus become free from the past
imprints (samskaras) and habits (vasanas). Through teaching about how
the body/mind works via meditation, concentration, asana, and breath
work while at the same time inspiring the student to follow the
principles of ahimsa (non-harmfulness to self as well as to others)
this awareness is expanded and from it freedom arises. This is why it
has become very popular in some circles, but it also creates a threat
to those who would want to manipulate, exploit, and/or modify our
behaviour.
So I go back to the starting point regarding the idea of brainwashing
and indoctrination. We all are entitled to have our own doctrines and
principles. Some are our own to an extant and some have been laid upon
us by parents, teachers, priests, religions, society, groups, and
consensus reality. We all do the best we know how as do our parents,
but every experience has an impact either leading us to freedom or to
further imprisonment. Yoga says that we have the ability to make the
wise choices leading toward freedom; while this very statement sends a
chill up the spine of religious fundamentalists, subscribers to
traditional authoritarian family values, military organizations, and
other authoritarian social/religious organizations who would like to
control us. It is thus not unusual to see alliances formed by
fundamentalist religious organizations, law and order organizations
that advocate police state life styles such as more police power,
stricter penalties (such as death penalties), bigger armies, military
takeovers, sexual repression, censorship, status quo authoritarian
political parties. They all share the same psychology of insecurity,
predilection, and fear. Precisely it is to this milieu of fear and
arrogance that RR and others like him exploit, because authentic yoga
teachers very much do threaten a loss of such mind-control. This is why
this swami in particular (the Woodstock Swami) has been attacked.
For instance in the fourteenth century most people in Europe believed
that the world was flat and that the Pope was God's mediator on Earth,
today there exists a different set of mass illusory beliefs shaped by
time/place. There exist countless other examples wherein mankind has
become blinded by the dominant consensus illusion of their time/place.
Thus it is not unrelated that yoga is often defined as the UNIVERSAL
science that is designed to eradicate such time/place and/or culturally
derived bias, prejudice, or illusions. Otherwise we are all
indoctrinated and subject to some extent to brainwashing (conditioning
pertaining to the time/space temporary illusions that rub off unto us
by contact with other humans that are so afflicted.
To summarize, Mr. Cheng believes that being a lawyer is far more sane
and noble than being a yogi and he has hired RR to bolster this
illusory doctrine colored by his tenaciousness to his own traditional
materialistic values by attempting to discredit Catherine (and the
Swami who "forced" or rather should we say "permitted" her to do this).
But this is merely a mask for Mr. Cheng's own insecurity -- his own
inner sense of failure and shame i.e., guilt. In the meanwhile the
dysfunctional specter of a very dark bogeyman of guilt and fear
continues to haunt the entire family while it seems that it is only
Catherine who is undergoing exorcism.
The Bogeyman as the Archetype for a Domineering and Terrorizing Father
It seems to me that Mr. Cheng's aggressive actions toward the Swami
only increase the suffering for the family members. Although I doubt he
will ever be happy (barring extensive professional counseling) he at
least could think of Catherine, his wife, and the rest of the family,
and put some effort into some sort of accord. I don't know if this is
possible without him seeing himself first (and his own relationship
with his own parents). Mr. Cheng appears very tenacious and this may be
to his own advantage if it is applied functionally, but not as an
attempt to control his now adult daughter and deny her own values and
decisions. Such a tenacious and stubborn tendency as he has exhibited
in his past actions do not look promising. Do you not think that
Catherine anticipated her father's strong aversion toward her decision
to move to Yogaville and thus needed to create a buffer?
For my part I can extend an olive branch, but can't make anyone
grab/accept it. There is however a lesson to be learned here. Neither
Catherine nor I have created Mr. Cheng's anger and pain, we just
brought his attention to it. It's been there all the time and its up
for Mr. Cheng to see it, acknowledge the emotion that he feels, and
then he will be able to LET IT GO!
You know that it is well accepted that when a child is young, a
domineering father may invoke "direction" through punishment, threat of
punishment, intimidation, threat of public humiliation or
embarrassment, repressive measures, physical or verbal abuse, as well
as other punishment in the parent's attempt to control the situation.
But force is only one way to control; the situation. It is called
negative motivation. Here the father (or authority figure) demands
obedience and if it is not unquestionably given, then there is certain
punishment or abuse.
Some people rebel and some remain submissive, but in either case there
always remains an underlying resentment, frustration, or anger which
usually resurfaces later in hand me down
authoritarianism/totalitarianism when the child himself becomes an
adult unless it is cleared out through spiritual or psychological
work. Unfortunately those who do not rebel and become secure in their
own ability to think for themselves wind up chronically insecure,
craving external structure, become addicted to external order,
predictable situations, addicted to control, fearing change,
maintaining the addiction to strong authority figures in their lives or
else identifying with such themselves in an attempt to maintain order
and sense of "self" as a compensation for a lack of an inner self
knowledge, security, peace, order, "Reality", and meaning in life which
only spiritual alignment brings forth..
I know that Catherine sees this vicious circle and has chosen to break
this cycle for herself. If Mr. Cheng also can see this, he too can
break the cycle for his own reincarnation (and also free one's
ancestors). If Mr. Cheng can then bring himself to accept (not
necessarily sanction, approve, nor condone) -- but just accept
the "new" Catherine as she is -- as an adult -- and love her
unconditionally i.e., regardless of what she does, this by itself will
form the gateway that allows you to accept the reality of the current
situation and begin anew to establish a functional dialogue and
effective communication without any ulterior agenda.
I suggest that Mr. Cheng simply get to know her and listen to her. Just
let her speak her mind without labeling it as puppeteering brainwash
propaganda. Try to understand who this human being is who is talking.
He might even feel proud of her that she did not become a lawyer?
I suggest that also Mr. Cheng should get to know his new son-in-law
also. You may be happy to know that some of these Swamis have very high
ideals while many of his friends feel that Mr. Gross made a great
sacrifice because of his love for Catherine by giving up his robes and
position in the organization.
I suggest that he get to know these two "strange" people by learning
how to listen more. Then after listening -- just as you would extend an
ear to an equal -- then make your decision if you want these two
people in your life. No it doesn't seem that they will be obsequious,
but is that what you really want?
What is the nature of his reluctance in this matter? Is it not the
result of Mr. Cheng's own upbringing and the anger/fear that his own
parents and authority figures invoked? Is there not a lingering issue
of ancestor approval/disapproval. Can you not see the beauty of
Catherine and her children being free from domination from this dark,
abusive, and terrorizing specter? Is it possible that Mr. Cheng himself
as well as the entire family may also become free from it as well and
simply learn how to live with a yogini in the family as well as a yogi
son-in-law thus breaking this dysfunctional cycle and becoming free?
Treating Catherine and her husband as sane human beings may be a good
start -- not that this means that accepting the other person as they
are without judgement (positive or negative) that you are sanctioning
their activities (god forbid).
To conclude, Saraho, I got involved with this thread because I do have
expertise in this matter. I have had personal experience with a similar
situation in my own life as well as knowing this Swami for almost
thirty years. I am friends with many others who have had the
unfortunate experience of having to undergo a similar ordeal with such
a dark specter. I witness its effects daily in the continuing
dysfunctional politics and insecure behaviour of my fellow humans and
I am sincerely interested in its elimination.
I realized that you and AIC2000 did not understand yoga and were
approaching this one-sidedly. When I at first approached AIC2000, I
attempted at first a dialogue. Shortly it became demeaned into a
confrontation. When you arrived on this newsgroup, I also tried to
invite you to read about or talk with anyone in IYS. You refused to
respond .other than to tow the party line to the effect that they were
all brainwashed and exploiters. So I have tried to take the other side
(as devil's advocate). I admit that I have failed -- dysfunctional
families, child abuse, and mass indoctrination will go on until people
wake up. I hope however I have given you something to think about as
you and your cadre (be it fifth column or not) certainly have given me
some things to think about.
If you are interested in yoga and its impact upon dysfunctional family
politics, you are welcome to continue the conversation here however, I
do not feel that it is appropriate for some one who does not practice
yoga nor has any interest in yoga to unthinkingly parrot so much one
sided propaganda about one of the very best yoga schools in the West,
without doing an in-depth analysis of both sides first. To make up your
mind without hearing the other side is by definition, prejudicial and
that you have so acted "consciously" does not speak to the credibility
or truth of your claims nor of any claims of integrity nor fairness in
your past actions or intent.
From my experience, I acknowledge that there exists a planet-wide war
going on today. It is not between Christian and Hindu, Moslem and Jew,
Protestant and Catholic, Buddhist and Moslem, between religions,
nations, ethnic groups, genders, false and limited identifications, or
even beliefs and the like per se, but rather it is a war of truth
versus falsehood -- of vidya versus avidya -- It is humankind's
struggle to be free from tyranny of all kinds, from the fetters of
ignorance, from abuse itself, from his sleep and forgetfulness of Self.
It is humankind's waking up, eliminating all his
psychological "threats", insecurities, and fears thrusted into his life
through conditioned spiritual self alienation and illusory thought and
then taking responsibility -- simply its about mankind profoundly
knowing who he is as he is in the scheme of things and acting in
accordance with Sacred Reality. A great part of this struggle or "war"
depends how fast we become free from the negative conditioning that we
experienced as children and impose upon the "present" mis en scene. In
this way much of planetary future depends on how well human's can
become free from any toxic residues still to be expunged from our bio-
psychic structures as extensions thereof in the society that we create.
Without being built and composed of those who are free in mind, the
society itself will not further honor, create, or enhance the
freedom of others nor will it be capable to eliminate exploitation or
abuse. It is this cleansing and exorcism of indoctrination and
conditioning which is the opposite of brainwashing that authentic yoga
attempts to accomplish. A deeper topic, which will have to be saved for
another day. However it is my own experience that authentic and
functional yoga successfully cleanses these past negative psychic
imprints that are created in childhood effectively and thus effect
both clear thinking and liberation (the opposite of indoctrination and
brainwashing). This is the goal of authentic yoga that has been
respected throughout the ages rather than a trifling adornment to the
average Westerner's vanity that one sees pandered in modern magazines
or gyms. Such is the yoga that Swami Satchidananda attempts to teach
(and which I utterly fail in comparison). As such authentic yoga
teachings does not stand in opposition to an empowering/functional
family; but only to traditional authoritarian and
disempowering/dysfunctional families.
Underneath it all Saraho, I believe that you have at least started with
a decent intent and sensibility, but now after some clarification (on
both our parts) have you at least gained any valuable additional
information that may change your future posture in this matter or are
we still stuck in two different worlds and value systems without any
common ground? So I invite you to pursue an UNBIASED TRUTH in this
matter rather than invalidating Catherine's while acting in the role of
a family henchman for the father (or so has it appeared to me). In
short I find that your contention that Catherine is brainwashed to be
unproven, unwarranted, unfounded, without merit, and self serving to
say the least.
Good Luck in the future whose rich potential is the inheritance of all!
sar...@hotmail.com
concerning the cult practices of Integral Yoga and Yogaville.
>It seems to me that the main disagreement/contention is whether or not
>Catherine has been brainwashed or not. Mr. Cheng and you say that she
>has; ergo she has no right to decide her own fate, she is not
>capable, or rather someone else is doing her thinking for her (the
>brainwashers).
Sahaj, your demagogic logic fools no one. The family wants to be assured that
Catherine has made/is making her own choices with respect to staying at
Yogaville and marrying the 51 year old Swami. Unfortunately, based upon the
events of the past year, it is becoming increasingly clear to them that she is
not. I don't need to explain why the family feels this way. These events have
been discussed ad nauseum here. All I will say is that if your well-adjusted
daughter suddenly left her family, her fiancee, her entire life, for a person
she knew for 2 weeks.....stopped talking to her friends and family totally....
changed her religion, her name, and her entire personality.... this
suddenly....and further, if her diary confirmed all that you believed - namely,
that she had indeed been happy, in love, and planning where she and her fiancee
would be living after graduation, most fathers (not you of course) would be
concerned for their child's welfare. Since Catherine entered Integral Yoga’s
Yogaville, the spiritual home of Swami Satchidananda, she has never been out of
the organization's contact. That fact alone should seem strange to most people,
if in fact, this is a reputable institution, as you say. However, if instead of
being a "yoga school", it is a stealth religious organization that uses "cult
practices" to indoctrinate its "members", then these behaviors/practices are all
too common. Unfortunately, within Yogaville, Catherine appears to be
experiencing that which we both loathe - namely, she has lost the right to
choose her own fate.
>But only one thing is certain at least i.e., that her
>father is no longer doing her thinking for her alas. In this latter
>case, I find solace.
Again, despite your unwillingness to accept the truth (obviously because doing
so would require a change in your view of Integral Yoga, an unacceptable action
to you)...the fact is still that Catherine always did her own thinking prior to
going to Yogaville. She chose the schools that she wished to attend, the places
she wished to travel to, her fiancee, her interests, her friends, Yogaville,
etc. However, that has all ended for her now. She now follows the orders of
Integral Yoga.
>You conclude that although she was intelligent she became
>brainwashed/indoctrinated by the Swami and is thus no longer making her
>own decisions. That is a convenient means of discrediting the other
>person and taking away their constitutional rights, but can
>this "reasoning" be supported?
Unfortunately, high intelligence seems to be a prerequisite for recruitment by
groups such as Integral Yoga. You also must be in fine health. Cults don't
accept the disabled or the mentall y impaired since this would involve
considerable cost. The purpose of organizations such as Integral Yoga is to
make money from its devotees, not to spend it on their individual needs. It is
the "members" who give to the organization, not visa versa. In this case,
unfortunately, it is this organization that has taken away Catherine's
constitutional rights...using her to help build up their "religious"
organization.
>You said that the grandmother and neighbors took Catherine in and fed her, but
>why did not her own >family?
Again, you distort cavalierly. The family asked to meet with Catherine alone.
However, IYI insisted that the Swami be with her at all times. They then went to
the godparents in an attempt to manipulate them...and to have them speak with
the Chengs, to persuade them. Catherine and the Swami were living in Integral
Yoga in NYC and in hotels in the NYC area, eating quite well.
>You said that Mr. Cheng was denied access to talk
>with Catherine alone at Yogaville, but made no attempt to do so in New
>York, but rather his actions proved the opposite. If Catherine was
>distraught and upset, what did the family do to alleviate her condition
>then?
The family asked to meet with their daughter alone. This was unacceptable to
IYI.
>The "judgement" of Catherine being
>brainwashed remains not only unproved, but rather is rather a well
>known contentious ploy to discredit, disempower, demean, and subjugate
>an opposing view.
The ability to implant thoughts for positive (e.g to stop smoking) and negative
purposes ("my family beat me as a child...the police came to the door..I never
wanted to go to law school..I had no fiancee...et.al") as well as techniques of
"mind control" are all too real and well recognized in the literature. If you
wish cites, I will be happy to provide them for you. Again, while there are
thousands of reputable yoga schools, religions, and communes in the US, there
are also unreputable organizations- that abuse and take advantage of people for
their own benefit. Some have been discussed in this board at length.
>What really gives it away is that, you and Mr. Cheng repeatedly lament
>that: "she could have become a lawyer" and that she had a bright future
>ahead of her and instead see what has become of her? She has become a
>yogini instead.
All you are "giving away" is your attempt to confuse people. Your thoughts here
are a total falsehood. If anything, the family was too indulgent rather than
controlling. Despite your desire to see this in a light that does not and did
not exist, the truth is that Catherine chose her own life (until entering
Yogaville, that is). She chose her college and law school and fiancee....and on
and on...and usually did not tell them about her decisions until completed. She
also chose Yogaville, thinking it was a nice place with loving people. It was
the mistake of a lifetime.
>Also other promising books
I would recommend that you read "Combatting Cult Mind Control" by Steven Hassan,
although I am certain that you loathe such works. It might help you to
understand this situation better, if you truly wish to. It describes Mr.
Hassan's personal experiences with the Rev. Moon organization. Mr. Hassan had
intended to become a poet before being "recruited", in a manner similar to
Catherine's recruitment. As the Rev. Moon now owns a university, and a
newspaper, among other holdings in the USA, I'm certain that you'll find his
organization highly respectable and to your liking.
>Now this is a two way street. The parent has to make at least some
>honest attempt to understand the "reasoning" of their (now adult) child
>and be prepared to honor it. I don't think Mr. Cheng has reached this
>stage yet as he is demeaning Catherine entirely in this, while in fact
>she may have chosen a very noble field (as compared to being a lawyer)
>at least to some people. And this is precisely where people like RR
>make their money, from control freak bigoted parents who can't believe
>in anything other than their own values (while everyone else is nuts or
>brainwashed). There is no tolerance in such bigotry.
Unfortunately, Sahaj, the bigotry is in your mirror. This family has always
supported Catherine’s decisions. The question is whether staying in Yogaville
was her decision. Since entering Yogaville, she not only has changed her entire
personality, but also began writing letters which discuss her hatred of her
family for false/imagined events - beatings, law school, et.al. Is this usual
for a yoga school? Is this usual for a commune? I think not. Is it usual for a
cult? Very. Your paradigm of a family desiring a lawyer is simply untrue, but
you enjoy repeating this ad nauseum since it fits your false model.
>Now all Mr. Cheng or you have to do is to go to the IYS and talk with
>their people about yoga and you will find that they are intelligent
>individuals who are neither crazy nor evil. They are only different. I
>know you haven't done this, and since you haven't, does this make your
>investigation more or less in-depth, accurate, or fair? I would have to
>say less.
Again, the family wishes to speak with their daughter alone. They have
attempted to speak with IYI staff in their attempts to achieve this. They
received no sympathy from these "different" individuals. They received only
threats from IYI..nothing more - of lawsuits, homelessness, et. al. Obviously,
Yogaville has no intention of letting Catherine speak with her family. There is
too much to lose. Free labor is hard to come by.
>In other words, this is a very common problem, but because of the mechanism
>of "denial" which is a form of self inauthenticity, it is most often
>ignored and neglected until a "serious" problem forces recognition.
>Even then the mechanism of guilt and blame often interfere
>indefinitely.
I agree, Sahaj, that you are experiencing denial in this regard. This CANT have
happened. The family must be overly authoritarian, controlling. Yes, that must
be it.
>It seems to me that Mr. Cheng's aggressive actions toward the Swami
>only increase the suffering for the family members.
On the contrary, the family wishes that some "good" come out of this experience.
If only one other family, or one other student of yoga, was made aware of what
transpired in Yogaville with Catherine, they feel that their experience has not
been in vain.
>Although I doubt he
>will ever be happy (barring extensive professional counseling) he at
>least could think of Catherine, his wife, and the rest of the family,
>and put some effort into some sort of accord.
You seem to cast Mr. Cheng (and RR of course) as the bogeyman. In fact, the
entire Cheng family has been working to tell people about these events, working
to speak with Catherine away from Yogaville.
> Do you not think that
>Catherine anticipated her father's strong aversion toward her decision
>to move to Yogaville and thus needed to create a buffer?
No. Again, if Mr. Cheng were the bogeyman here, rather than Integral
Yoga/Yogaville, why didn’t Catherine invite any other relatives or friends to
her wedding? She had previously been planning a wedding with her boyfriend, and
wanted to invite hundreds to that wedding. Yet here she got married quickly and
secretly to the Swami and invited/spoke with no one from her past life. Mr.
Cheng is not the bogeyman Sahaj, it is Integral Yoga/Yogaville. They have
essentially robbed her of her life for the benefit of the organization.
>I suggest that also Mr. Cheng should get to know his new son-in-law
>also. You may be happy to know that some of these Swamis have very high
>ideals while many of his friends feel that Mr. Gross made a great
>sacrifice because of his love for Catherine by giving up his robes and
>position in the organization.
Unfortunately, Mr. Gross has proven to be a person whose ideals are
self-service. When the family tried to contact Catherine to learn what had
happened to her, Mr. Gross responded with threatened lawsuits. Later, the Swami
lied to the family, telling them that he had been "fired" from Yogaville, when
he continued working for them and living at IYI in NYC. When the family signed
an agreement with this Swami to see their daughter, the Swami then violated this
agreement each evening, repeatedly, for hours on end. Apparently, this Swami
lawyer does not see legal documents as anything other than another vehicle to
abuse others. The Swami was and is Yogaville’s free legal service. He
continues in this role.
>Can you not see the beauty of
>Catherine and her children being free from domination from this dark,
>abusive, and terrorizing specter?
Yes, I agree. She should be free from the domination of Yogaville/Integral
Yoga.
>I have had personal experience with a similar
>situation in my own life as well as knowing this Swami for almost
>thirty years.
Obviously then, Sahaj, you are the epitome of an objective observer.
>I realized that you and AIC2000 did not understand yoga and were
>approaching this one-sidedly.
No Sahaj, all who disagree with you are one person - don’t you remember what you
said before? The numerous persons who have spoken out against the injustice and
tyranny of Yogaville. We are all one bogeyman to you. Yet now you recognize
two people. In fact, there are more than you wish to admit and the number
grows.
>So I invite you to pursue an UNBIASED TRUTH in this
>matter rather than invalidating Catherine's while acting in the role of
>a family henchman for the father (or so has it appeared to me).
It is you, Sahaj, an admitted friend of The Swami Gross, who is biased and
acting as a henchman for Yogaville. The family’s desire is that Catherine freely
choose her life. Nothing more. On the contrary, it seems to be your desire
that Yogaville be free to choose her life for her. In that purpose and goal, we
will always disagree.
We agree that people should be free to worship as they wish and to choose their
own lives. We disagree as to what has occurred in this case. I believe that
your 30 year relationship with this Swami has blinded you to the abuses that
have occurred.
srut...@gmail.com
> I picked this up from the Integral Yoga Institute in New York City. I
> imagine they have distributed this across the country. Everyone who is
> interested in or does yoga should read through and visit the website.
> It is not only informative, but scary that after only 1 month inside
> Yogaville, one can be recruited into a cult. It's too bad more
> These are complete lies from Yogaville:
>
> 1) From the audiotape recording made in Feb, Catherine is already
> convinced she is not in a cult, is afraid of being kidnapped and
> deprogrammed, going back to New York, will not speak to anyone because
> of her new fears and that they may convince her otherwise.
>
> 2) Rev. Prem Anjali claims she does not know Catherine's brother but one
> of the first things she says to him is, You live in New York?
>
> 3) Look at the list of legal demands, 4 different Lawyers and Law Firms
> and still the family can't see her alone. I bet anyone would be scared
> of these guys!!!
>
> 4) The Integral Yoga Minster is once again Rev. Prem Anjali which is
> clearly on their "marriage certificate".
>
> 5) I don't think they got the family's blessing by knocking on their
> door for 3 days straight and finally confronting them by lounging for
> the door.
>
> Odviously, the administrators of Yogaville are liars, and this is a vast
> I know more news media is picking up on this story, it is really
> against the Yogaville cult.
>
> http://www.rickross.com/groups/yogaville.html
>
> I say FREE CATHERINE!
>
> 7/19/1999
>
> Dear friends,
> Hari Om. I'm forwarding these letters from the Ashram to those people
> that I believe have received a flyer from the Cheng family. Hopefully,
> they will clarify adequately the position of the Ashram and Catherine