Alaskan Timber Wolf as a pet
John Gallawa
We are seriously interested in having an Alaskan Timer Wolf as a pet.
They are such magnificent creatures. I grew up showing and handling
dogs, so I have some experience with animals. But, I worry about a wolf.
Is there a danger of the animal turning on a human, especially a child.
Have there been such occurances.
We would appreciate knowing all about the Timber Wolf and what it is
like as a pet, the pros and cons. Are there any good books, websites, or
other reference materials we could research.
Thanks for your help
Josh and Mandy Gallawa
Thanks
lneh...@vianet.on.ca
John Gallawa <mt...@pen.net> wrote:
I think you'll find that a lot of the people in this ng will advise
against owning a pure Wolf. You sound like you have children and for
this reason alone I'd say, no, don't get a Timber Wolf as a pet. The
wolf might at some time view the child as 'dinner'. All you have to do
is turn your back for 30 seconds and you've got a heap of trouble.
>
>
> Thanks
Lone Heart
FCWs3acm A- C** D+++ H++ M+ P+ R++ T+++
W- Z Sf+ RLAT a++ cm++ d e+ f++ h++++ i
p+ sf**
Ronnie Findley
John Gallawa wrote:
>
> We are seriously interested in having an Alaskan Timer Wolf as a pet.
> They are such magnificent creatures. I grew up showing and handling
> dogs, so I have some experience with animals. But, I worry about a
>wolf.
Assuming you live in the US, put the idea out of your mind because it's
illegal. Just because you have had _some_ experience with animals doesn't
qualify you as a wolf "handler." Dogs and pure wolves are a world apart
in temperament, disposition, and behavior. Wolves belong in only one
place - the wild!
> Is there a danger of the animal turning on a human, especially a child.
> Have there been such occurances.Of course there's a danger; it's a wild animal and always will be. Yes,
there are reported instances where children have been killed by wolf-dog
hybrids kept as family pets, however, many people have hybrids with no
problems.
Stormy
Hi John,
Your best source of information on the Timber and Having a "pure" one
as a pet, is to talk to the International Wolf Center in Ely, Minnesota.
They deal with real/wild wolves there, and I have heard as I live in
Minnesota, that they are the best here in the States. They also have
their own web site, please check them out. You will find an information
number on this site. This will help!
Stormy.......Soon to be In the Company of Wolves
"Listen to them, the Children of the Night!"
"What sweet music they make!"
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHOOOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!KC!
On Tue, 22 Oct 1996, John Gallawa wrote:
> We are seriously interested in having an Alaskan Timer Wolf as a pet.
> They are such magnificent creatures. I grew up showing and handling
> dogs, so I have some experience with animals. But, I worry about a wolf.
> Is there a danger of the animal turning on a human, especially a child.
> Have there been such occurances.
>
> We would appreciate knowing all about the Timber Wolf and what it is
> like as a pet, the pros and cons. Are there any good books, websites, or
> other reference materials we could research.
>
> Thanks for your help
>
Rob Ewan
In <326D5A...@pen.net>, John Gallawa <mt...@pen.net> writes:
..
>We would appreciate knowing all about the Timber Wolf and what it is
>like as a pet, the pros and cons. Are there any good books, websites, or
>other reference materials we could research.
There is a website at http://tigerden.com/Wolf-park/Hybrid1.html
All about Wolves and Wolf hybrids as pets. They advise against it, but
give useful guidelines for people doing it.
Other useful wolf links are available from:
http://envirolink.org/arrs/sites.html
Ann Ewan
Theresa Vitzthum
Apart from the question of whether the idea of bringing a pure wolf into
ones home is a safe one, you have to ask the question of whether it's
even legal. Ownership/possession of endangered/threatened species is
prohibited under the Endangered Species Act, except under certain
limited circumstances. You *may* be out of luck in that respect. Local
ordinances may prohibit ownership of a wolf/dog hybrid. This is not
uncommon. Pit bulls and rottweilers have not been faring well in many
town councils around the country; there's no reason to assume hybrids
fare any better.
lbras...@aol.com
I am new to this newsgroup, and in regard to having a pure wolf as a pet.
Wolves can not be "pets". You can not train them like dogs. As for
being illegal... I'm not sure, except in PA you need a permit to own a
pure wolf. that's what I was told by several different authorities.
They can turn on a human because they are not part of the pack, few people
can create a pack atmosphere without other wolves.
I would like to know however, if someone was interested, cause I am, in
starting a wolf research and release center of their own how they would go
about doing it. I have worked with many types of animals, including
wolves and have considered this, but not before thourgh consideration and
lbras...@aol.com
cont. sorry...
I would also have to give complete devotion to this.. but I am a lover
of wolves and am glad to find a newsgroup!
Laurel
LBrass1650
Moonchild
Padding up to (lbras...@aol.com), Moonchild looks and sits down.
Apparently, something important was written, and marked as "<19961027000
000.UA...@ladder01.news.aol.com>", at Sun, 27 Oct 1996 - 00:00:15....
It reads:
>I am new to this newsgroup, and in regard to having a pure wolf as a pet.
>Wolves can not be "pets". You can not train them like dogs.
> As for
>being illegal... I'm not sure, except in PA you need a permit to own a
>pure wolf. that's what I was told by several different authorities.
>
>They can turn on a human because they are not part of the pack,
did without problems... just be natural and keep in mind the wolf is
equal. She at first didn't even know it was a wolf, until later....
>few people
>can create a pack atmosphere without other wolves.
Just depends on your attitude mostly, but indeed, some people will never
be able to create a pack atmosphere... it isn't too difficult though as
long as you see having a wolf isn't a case of having, but living with.
>
>I would like to know however, if someone was interested, cause I am, in
>starting a wolf research and release center of their own how they would go
>about doing it. I have worked with many types of animals, including
>wolves and have considered this, but not before thourgh consideration and
Signed: ^ ^
# #
^ ### ### ^
# ### ### #
### # # ###
### ###
# #### #
########
###########
###########
(Moonchild) ### ###
NEW HOMEPAGE LOCATION!!! http://www.wolfden.demon.co.uk/
Whitefang
John Gallawa <mt...@pen.net> wrote:
>We are seriously interested in having an Alaskan Timer Wolf as a pet.
A wolf is NOT a pet and will NEVER be a pet. Like you might have
noticed there is no recorded file of a wolf attacking a human. Thats
also because these animals are very shy.
>They are such magnificent creatures. I grew up showing and handling
>dogs, so I have some experience with animals. But, I worry about a wolf.
>Is there a danger of the animal turning on a human, especially a child.
>Have there been such occurances.
There a few occurances where wolves turned on their owner even though
some people may say different things. But there is a good risk to be
attacked by a wolf when you keep it as a pet. A wolf is NOT
domesticated and it can't be really domesticated.
>We would appreciate knowing all about the Timber Wolf and what it is
>like as a pet, the pros and cons. Are there any good books, websites, or
>other reference materials we could research.
If you really want a wolf-like creature why don't you get an Alaskan
Malamute or a Husky ? These dogs look very similar to wolves and their
behaviour is kinda wolf-like and they are very friendly and
domesticated. You shouldnt try to get a wild animal because a wolf
belongs in wilderness and not in a home with humans. It's not a pet so
try to respect the dignity of this beautiful animals. If you really
love wolves let them where they belong.
>Thanks for your help
>Josh and Mandy Gallawa
Check out the wolf sites on the net.
Whitefang
>Thanks
Nookers
In article <32714A...@staff.pnpa.com>, Theresa Vitzthum
<ther...@staff.pnpa.com> writes:
Actually, it is a bit more complicated than this. Generally legislation
falls at state level. Unless you plan to be an exhibitor, where you will
need a USDA license, or have an animal which falls under USDI regulation
(such as red wolf or Mexican wolf or I believe Arctic wolves for some
reason) this will not be a problem. However, most states do currently
requite a permit to own a wolf, quite a number of them require you to have
a permit for a hybrid and a few prohibit the ownership of both by private
individuals.
Before you even consider getting such an animal, please find somebody who
has worked with wolves for many years. Get to know a few wolves - you
will probably find that this is NOT the animal that you want to be
responsible for for 10-15 years to come.
Although dogs are domesticated wolves, wolves are NOT dogs. The
difference in the animal- human relationship between dog and wolf is (for
lack of a better word) extreme. You can have the best, most loving,
trusting relationship with a wolf and have it shattered in one bad
incident. Wolves tend to be one-event learners and one bad experience can
literally ruin an animal for life.
Most young wolves are curious, self possessed animals with a strong desire
to take everything apart -- I guess to see how it works <G>. They have a
tendency to be strongly competitive - this is especially true in social
matters. Wolves are extremely eager to greet and appease to older canines
when young, but upon maturity most quickly loose the ability to accept any
other adult dog (or wolf) -- the exception being a lone male and a lone
female that happen to like one another...
Socialization is a major effort and may take as much as 2000 hours worth
of work in the animals first 4 months of life. You have to begin at
around 2 weeks of age and continue to work with the animal constantly and
CONSISTENTLY until its sensitive period of socialization begins to close.
Then you work has just begun because you will be into the bratty teenager
stage by six months and if you can weather that first year - you have
sexual maturity to look forward to the next...
You also have to be very careful not to end up with an animal that is
thoroughly imprinted on people. Such animals can be extremely dangerous
when they mature for all their social behavior is directed toward people.
Wolf pups instinctively bond to adult canines and are shy of humans. To
create a well socialized animal you generally have to keep the pup away
from adult canines (except for some visits) and yet to keep it from
imprinting on people, we recommend that the pup be reared with another and
not in isolation. However, I do know of many animals which were
reasonably well adjusted raised alone, they just had more supervised
contact with adult canines.
Wolves are well known to train their handlers. Young wolves are
especially good at putting people in catch-22 situations and generally can
be big pains in the butt.
Predatory behavior is something which is very difficult to control and
along with social testing, is what makes these animals potentially
dangerous. The same is true with dogs, but with wolves, they are more
intense.
Monty Sloan/Wolf Park
Nookers
In article <19961027000...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
lbras...@aol.com writes:
>I am new to this newsgroup, and in regard to having a pure wolf as a pet.
>Wolves can not be "pets". You can not train them like dogs. As for
>being illegal... I'm not sure, except in PA you need a permit to own a
>pure wolf. that's what I was told by several different authorities.
>
Hi Laurel
You also need a permit for a hybrid in PA from what I have heard.
>They can turn on a human because they are not part of the pack, few
people
>can create a pack atmosphere without other wolves.
Actually being part of the pack makes little difference. Wolves are
socially competitive - especially the females. They will take advantage
of one another at times - that is how a wolf moves up. A higher ranking
wolf who loses its position is often harassed until it leaves. Alphas who
have lost their position have been know to be killed - both in wild and in
captive packs. However, having a pack does create a situation where you
can use one animal to distract another. For example, if Orca, our new
alpha male, is giving a person a hard time, we can dump a puppy on him to
distract him... We can also use the presence of Altair, the alpha female,
to deflate him - she is the over-all pack leader right now...
- Monty Sloan/Wolf Park
If you have any specific questions about wolves, please send me a note and
I will try to answer it.
les
lneh...@vianet.on.ca wrote:
>
> John Gallawa <mt...@pen.net> wrote:
>
> > We are seriously interested in having an Alaskan Timer Wolf as a pet.
> > dogs, so I have some experience with animals. But, I worry about a wolf.
> > Is there a danger of the animal turning on a human, especially a child.
> > Have there been such occurances.
> >
> > like as a pet, the pros and cons. Are there any good books, websites, or
> > other reference materials we could research.
> >
> >
> > Josh and Mandy Gallawa
>
> against owning a pure Wolf. You sound like you have children and for
> this reason alone I'd say, no, don't get a Timber Wolf as a pet. The
> wolf might at some time view the child as 'dinner'. All you have to do
> is turn your back for 30 seconds and you've got a heap of trouble.
> >
> >
> > Thanks
>
> Lone Heart
> FCWs3acm A- C** D+++ H++ M+ P+ R++ T+++
> W- Z Sf+ RLAT a++ cm++ d e+ f++ h++++ i
> p+ sf**
Regarding the question of owning a wolf for a pet, why not contact
Mission Wolf and ask how many monthly requests they get to take in wolf
"pets"..... Having been out there this summer I can tell you the
numbers will astonish you. Wolves are indeed magnificent animals, but
are not "pets" by any standard. Todays cute wolf cub is tomorrows
executed Humane Society wolf. Do the wolf a favor and admire them from
afar.
WolfWmn731
I work with wolves at a wildlife sanctuary and I can tell you wolves
aren't pets. They aren't dog-like at all. Please do not keep a wolf in
your house! It will eat your couch, at least! Dogs want to be with
people, but wolves only want to be with other wolves. Wolves don't have
the desire for human approval that dogs do, and so are very difficult to
train. Not only that, but if you do not have the proper permits from
USDA, the Fish and Game Dept. in your state, and your county, if you get
caught with a wolf, they will take it away from you. Wolves must be
spoken to in their own language. A person who does not understand the
language of the wolf may be injured. Children look like prey to a wolf.
They are small, make jerky movements and high-pitched noises. Looks like
prey, sounds like prey, must be lunch! The sanctuary I volunteer at has
several wolves that were rescued from people who got them as pets, only to
discover that they do not make good pets at all. When your adorable
little wolf puppy grows into an adult, you will not be able to handle him
as you would a dog. Also, wolves do not respond to names. Somehow they
do not recognize that sound you are making as applying to them. If they
don't respond to names, you can bet they don't respond to verbal commands.
What will you do when your "pet" tries to get into a dominance contest
with you, (or, God forbid, your child?). I, too would love to have a wolf
of my own, but it is a very, very bad idea. I'm sorry to have to tell you
all this, but for the safety of your family and the wolf in question, I
beg you-Don't get a wolf!
Wolfwmn48
You do have some facts very wrong about wolves. First to own a pure wolf,
you must be qualified and know how to interact with them. ( I think you
said that. <g>) No they are not like owning a dog, your right on that
one. And no they can not be kept as house pets (even though some claim to
do so). It would take a exceptional wolf to be able to keep in the house
all the time, but I do know people that let them in under supervision.
Again your correct in that you need USDA permits in most states to own a
pure, but not all states is is illegal to have them. But I do disagree
with you in the fact that they do not respond to their names, this is just
not true, they do know their names, but with wolves, you can't just
expect them to come when called...they come when they feel like it. Yes
small children do look like prey to them, but not all will attack them, it
depends on the prey drive in the animal. I agree with you too, that wolves
do not make ideal pets for most people, but there are alot of commited
people out there that do just fine with them but I would not call them
pets. Wolves aren't like a dog, they do not live to please their masters,
they are very distructive and like to see how things work, so tearing it
apart is nothing to them. They can be taught some basic commands, but you
can't always expect them to do it every time you ask. <g> In the right
hands, wolves are wonderfull companions, they are loving, demanding,
special, amazing creatures. Anyone thinking of getting a wolf should first
check to see if they are legal in your state. Also you will need good
containment, escape proof. and a good breeder will check out your
containment and also have a long contract for you to read though and sign.
A good breeder will also take back the animal if something was to happen
and you couldn't keep it, just some things to remember.
Linda
(WolfWmn731) writes:
>Subject: Re: Alaskan Timber Wolf as a pet
>From: wolfw...@aol.com (WolfWmn731)
>Date: 2 Nov 1996 13:04:08 -0500
>------------------- Headers --------------------
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>From: wolfw...@aol.com (WolfWmn731)
>Newsgroups: alt.wolves
>Subject: Re: Alaskan Timber Wolf as a pet
>Date: 2 Nov 1996 13:04:08 -0500
>Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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>References: <326D5A...@pen.net>
>Reply-To: wolfw...@aol.com (WolfWmn731)
>NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
>
>
JD Weston
WolfWmn731 wrote:
>
> What will you do when your "pet" tries to get into a dominance contest
> with you, (or, God forbid, your child?). I, too would love to have a wolf
> of my own, but it is a very, very bad idea. I'm sorry to have to tell you
> all this, but for the safety of your family and the wolf in question, I
> beg you-Don't get a wolf!
We run a wolf-dog cross rescue group and would like to agree with this
post.
The 6 counties we work with put an average of 42 (1995) hyb's a month
down and we find homes for about 30 a year. The simple fact is that
wolf's are not just big beautiful dogs. If you and everyone working
with them is trained - you can minimize the problems but not get rid of
them. We work to tell people not to breed, buy or turn loose hyb's. If
you MUST have one then get the training, build the proper fencing and
work with a rescue group and save two {we only place in pair's} hyb's.
JD
NightSerf
I went to a presentation recently that was given by a man who
had acquired a wolf/dog if his younger days. He does not
advise anyone to follow in his footsteps. The animal is 7/8
siberian wolf if I got it right and presents as full wolf.
Sasha is a strikingly beautiful animal with white-blond fur and
piercing blue. She is friendly and outgoing.
But Shasha must be confined to leash or pen 100% of the time. If
given the chance, she will run off and never come back on her
own. She has no skills to help her survive on her own and would
be dead from a rancher's bullet of from starvation in short
order if not found.
She needs constant companionship and is miserable if left alone
for even short periods of time. This man has not had a real
vacation in nearly fifteen years. The care of the wolf/dog is a
responsibility of epic proportions and is not one that can be
delegated to another. Kennels are simply out of the question.
If you want daily contact with wolves and/or hybrids, it might
be worthwhile to persue emplyment or volunteer work and one of
the rescure centers that care for abandoned ones. Such an
experience would also help in making a more informed decision
about acquiring such an animal for yourself.
--
andy No trees were harmed by the production of this
message: however, rather a large number of electrons
ac...@virginia.edu were somewhat inconvenienced.
L.D.Andrade
I can not let misstatements of facts stand.
1.) Any mammal can be trained
Any time you see a statement to the contrary,
substitute "I don't know how, so it must not be possible"
2.) Wolves certainly will come when called. They are not stupid.
The reason this myth persists is that those making it
don't know how to train.
3.) Wolves can be house animals - but not unsupervised!
4.) Pet no. Companion, partner, yes.
5.) Any mammal that does not care what you want - YOUR OWN FAULT!
Whenever you see that "wolves don't care what you want"
substitute "I do not have a clue how to bond with anything"
Any bonded mammal will care what you want.
BTW, last I heard Linda does not have any animals, she gains
all this knowledge from visiting & going back home.
L.A.
>>your house! It will eat your couch,Article Unavailable
Wolfwmn48
Lynn, I think I have stated that you don't need to own a wolf to know
about them and what they are all about, why is it all of you DWW2 people
think that just because you don't own one, you don't know Jack about
them...there are lots of people that you know that don't own them and hell
they claim to know it all. Talk to me in two years when yours is mature,
then tell the truth about its training and how it has done, and be
truthfull, I would like to hear how far the training has progressed in
that time frame.
L.
dthu...@aol.com
A good book that is easy to find right at the moment that will explain
briefly and logically why a wolf is not and never will be a pet is "the
Sawtooth Wolves" by jim Dutcher and Richard Ballantine. It's a
photographic study and if you love wolves the pictures are wonderful, but
more relavant to the current topic are the discussions of wolf social
behavior.
Bob
One must be careful about saying wolves don't make good pets. They are
not dogs, but they could become companion animals for certian people
under some special conditions. Please see such books as Arctic Wild and
Captive Wild by Lois Cristler, or The North Runner by Lawrence or In the
Shadow of a Rainbow, by Leslie for examples of special people having
wolves as companions under special conditions. Not for everyone, or
hardly anyone, but not impossible.
Wolf Bob
Bob
Now in defense of Lois...she befriended wild wolves, interacted and they
seemed to attach to her and for sure she attached to them. The
companionship was there. Knowlege was not. She lived in the woods, she
did not know much about animals going in and yet her writings are widely
accepted as a critical observation on wolf behavior.
From Captive Wild, she also had a lot of personal problems and died at a
very young age. Remember that these books were written in the late 50s
and not much lay knowlege was available on wolves.
WB
Brent L. Brock wrote:
>
> May I point out that as good of a book that Arctic Wild is, Captive Wild is
> a great example of who shouldn't try to keep wolves? Here is someone who
> hauled a bunch of wolves out of the wild had most of them escape and get
> killed, bred a bunch of wolf hybrids just because they thought poor Alatna
> should have a mate, allowed them all to get distemper because they weren't
> properly vaccinated, then killed the whole lot of them with an overdose of
> sleeping pills because the animals would be too difficult to move to a new
> place. Does this sound like responsible ownership?
>
> On the bright side, another good one by R.D. Lawrence is In Praise of
> Wolves.
>
> Bob <wol...@csnsys.com> wrote in article <3286BA...@csnsys.com>...
Brent L. Brock
May I point out that as good of a book that Arctic Wild is, Captive Wild is
a great example of who shouldn't try to keep wolves? Here is someone who
hauled a bunch of wolves out of the wild had most of them escape and get
killed, bred a bunch of wolf hybrids just because they thought poor Alatna
should have a mate, allowed them all to get distemper because they weren't
properly vaccinated, then killed the whole lot of them with an overdose of
sleeping pills because the animals would be too difficult to move to a new
place. Does this sound like responsible ownership?
On the bright side, another good one by R.D. Lawrence is In Praise of
Wolves.
Bob <wol...@csnsys.com> wrote in article <3286BA...@csnsys.com>...
> One must be careful about saying wolves don't make good pets. They are
> not dogs, but they could become companion animals for certian people
> under some special conditions. Please see such books as Arctic Wild and
> Captive Wild by Lois Cristler, or The North Runner by Lawrence or In the
> Shadow of a Rainbow, by Leslie for examples of special people having
> wolves as companions under special conditions. Not for everyone, or
> hardly anyone, but not impossible.
>
> Wolf Bob
>
Brent L. Brock
I agree, the story outlined in Arctic Wild is superb. I just wish she
would have left her wolves there. No question about her devotion but
responsible husbandry requires devotion, knowledge and means.
Bob <wol...@csnsys.com> wrote in article <328804...@csnsys.com>...
Steve Landrum R.Ph.
I had a full blooded timber wolf for 8 years. She was solid white with
a light streak of brown down her back (actually the guard hairs). When I
first got her (from a breeder) she was very shy and really prefered we
didn't come near her. In order to catch her she had to be hemmed in a
corner. She NEVER attempted to bite even under these circumstances.
Within a month or so after we had her, she became the biggest baby
ever. She loved to have her chest scratched and to "howl" with the
family. She lived in the house most of the time. She developed cancer in
one of her breasts about 5 years ago, after one unsuccessful operation,
we had to have her euthanased.
Her name was Marabou...
--
Steve Landrum R.Ph.
1319 Ruffwood Road
Tupelo, Ms 38801-6168
Illigitimus Non Carborundum Est.
sav...@iosys.net
Perhaps I am out of line here, but it seems to me that there should be
no question of whether or not to 'own' a wolf as a pet. Come on, the
idea of people owning something as purely wild and majestic as a wolf is
another example of why our world is going to hell in a hand basket!
Wolves are not pets they are wild animals. Haven't we (humans) done
enough damage to nature without adding to the grief by trying to show
our ignorant power over her by constantly trying to dominate every
aspect of her? Wolves need miles and miles of running ground and other
wolves as social groups. I don't think any wolf should ever be ripped
away from it's instinctual world to satisfy the self-righteous impetus
of some ignorant human. If you want to have a wolf as a companion, leave
all your worldly things and live by the law of fang and claw in the wild
and hunt down your supper with bare hands and teeth like the
wolves--otherwise, be content to catch a glimpse of them traveling
unfettered through their world and quit trying to make every living
thing fit into yours!
David Heatherly
In <19961110193...@ladder01.news.aol.com> dthu...@aol.com
writes:
>A good book that is easy to find right at the moment that will explain
>briefly and logically why a wolf is not and never will be a pet is
"the
>Sawtooth Wolves" by jim Dutcher and Richard Ballantine. It's a
>photographic study and if you love wolves the pictures are wonderful,
but
>more relavant to the current topic are the discussions of wolf social
>behavior.
anyone could be so cruel as think confining a wolf to a home and yard
would work when you how large a territory they truly need to
comfortably roam in!!! Support the Sawtooth Pack--adopt a wolf today!
Samantha
wolf...@aol.com
This is fine but what about all of the people that are breeding captive
wolves and they have never known the wild? Shouldn't people have a right
to own what they want and if these animals are being bred in cativity,
shouldn't they go to good qualified homes? There is not much one can do to
stop people from breeding and selling wolves or wolfdogs, but everyone has
a right to their own opinions.
>Subject: Re: Alaskan Timber Wolf as a pet
>From: sav...@iosys.net
>Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 21:07:44 -0800
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>From: sav...@iosys.net
>Newsgroups: alt.wolves
>Subject: Re: Alaskan Timber Wolf as a pet
>Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 21:07:44 -0800
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Bob
People who think is wrong to take a wild animal and make it conform to
human ways are right. I know several dozen people that have wolves as
companions and not one of then have successfully made the wolf conform
to their desires or ways. In all cases, they have conformed to a large
degree to being wolves. They can communicate using body language, grunts
and growls, have a "den" with nothing in it that a wolf doesn't want, a
yard with nothing but wolf "holes", the wolf will sit, come, laydown on
command if it wants to and will fetch for its own use. The animal seems
happy with the relationship and the people seem to tolerate being
dominated. To correct a young wolf, you often have to bite it on the
nose, to do this to an adult wolf would be very foolish.
Note, this is not what I normally consider to be a "Pet-Master"
relationship.
Wolf Bob
Anne Exton Stone
I'm not sure what you are saying here. Are you saying that captive wolves
do not share any behaviors of wild wolves? Or maybe you are saying they
share some behavior of which a desire to run is not one of them? Or maybe
you are saying they do share a desire to run but their desires are
different? Or perhaps that a captive wolf doesn't desire to run as much
or as far?
What exactly are you implying by saying captive wolves have 'never known
the wild'
If I have misread your post please let me know.
anne
On 13 Nov 1996 wolf...@aol.com wrote:
> This is fine but what about all of the people that are breeding captive
> wolves and they have never known the wild? Shouldn't people have a right
> to own what they want and if these animals are being bred in cativity,
> shouldn't they go to good qualified homes? There is not much one can do to
> stop people from breeding and selling wolves or wolfdogs, but everyone has
> a right to their own opinions.
>
> >Subject: Re: Alaskan Timber Wolf as a pet
> >From: sav...@iosys.net
> >Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 21:07:44 -0800
> >
> >Perhaps I am out of line here, but it seems to me that there should be
> >no question of whether or not to 'own' a wolf as a pet. Come on, the
> >idea of people owning something as purely wild and majestic as a wolf is
> >another example of why our world is going to hell in a hand basket!
> >Wolves are not pets they are wild animals. Haven't we (humans) done
> >enough damage to nature without adding to the grief by trying to show
> >our ignorant power over her by constantly trying to dominate every
> >aspect of her? Wolves need miles and miles of running ground and other
> >wolves as social groups. I don't think any wolf should ever be ripped
> >away from it's instinctual world to satisfy the self-righteous impetus
> >of some ignorant human. If you want to have a wolf as a companion, leave
> >all your worldly things and live by the law of fang and claw in the wild
> >and hunt down your supper with bare hands and teeth like the
> >wolves--otherwise, be content to catch a glimpse of them traveling
> >unfettered through their world and quit trying to make every living
> >thing fit into yours!
> >
nad...@erols.com
So Lynn, how's the training going with your Volkman pup?
> >>Subject: Re: Alaskan Timber Wolf as a pet
> >>Date: 2 Nov 1996 13:04:08 -0500
> >>Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
> >>Lines: 23
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> >>References: <326D5A...@pen.net>
> >>Reply-To: wolfw...@aol.com (WolfWmn731)
> >>NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
--
NADA: KEEP THE LINE PURE!!!
nad...@erols.com
Since you all know so much about wild wolf behavior, I wonder if you all
know anything about captive SOCIALIZED, NOT WILD, wolves??? Maybe some of
you may have heard about something called SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH, not
videos??? Try reading: Kreeger et al. 1996. Activity patterns of Gray
wolves housed in small Vs. large enclosures. Zoo Biology 15:395-401
--
Michael C. Backus
In <328AAB...@csnsys.com> Bob <wol...@csnsys.com> writes:
>
>People who think is wrong to take a wild animal and make it conform to
>human ways are right. I know several dozen people that have wolves as
>companions and not one of then have successfully made the wolf conform
>to their desires or ways. In all cases, they have conformed to a large
>degree to being wolves. They can communicate using body language,
grunts
>and growls, have a "den" with nothing in it that a wolf doesn't want,
a
>yard with nothing but wolf "holes", the wolf will sit, come, laydown
on
>command if it wants to and will fetch for its own use. The animal
seems
>happy with the relationship and the people seem to tolerate being
>dominated. To correct a young wolf, you often have to bite it on the
>nose, to do this to an adult wolf would be very foolish.
>
>Note, this is not what I normally consider to be a "Pet-Master"
>relationship.
>
>Wolf Bob
>
I have to agree with you here for the most part. We were not looking
for a hybrid [or another dog for that matter] when we aquired Meisha.
She is a wolf/siberian mix [60%]. We took her from an abusive owner. He
couldn't figure out why he couldn't train her. Turns out he was not
even aware that she was a hybrid. We managed to do some tracing and
backtracking to discover her parentage.
We have, as Bob said, done the bigger portion of adjusting our
lifestyle to hers. After almost a year though, it has been worth it.
You have never seen such a big baby! She comes down to my office every
night as I sit in front of the computer and curls up next to my chair.
That is generally where she stays untill bedtime. Then she goes
upstairs with my wife and I. She sleeps on the foot of our bed.
Independent she is. Obnoxious she is not. She gets along well with the
other hybrid [50%] and 2 dogs. Also plays well with the 10 & 15 year
olds. [kids that is]
I am not interested in having a pure, but I wouldn't trade Meisha for
a dozen dogs. [not that I could afford to feed them] All said and done,
the 2 hybrids are better companions than the 2 dogs [I still love my
puppies though] and much brighter. [maybe even brighter than me]
Probably wouldn't take much though. After all, I do have 4 dogs
[generally speaking].
Gotta go...Lurk mode back on.
Mike & Leah
Nicholas Macsi
Not sure if this is the right place to post this but i thought if anyone
would know you lot might... So....
Does anyone know which breed of DOG is closest to (in the genetic sort of
family tree way) WOLVES or is this a much contested point?
Please help me as all the books I read sort of scoot around this point!
L.D.Andrade
Well, if this Server is working now, I will answer in
public. Also, in the interim, I discover that this
is my old pal Nick F. ;)
The answer - is
Things are going splendidly. Better than I would have
ever forecasted. This includes free runs in the forest
and every sort of intraspecies & interspecies interactions.
L.A.
In a previous article, nad...@erols.com () says:
>So Lynn, how's the training going with your pup?
nad...@erols.com
Great to hear it L. D. Keep up the good work! Aren't NADA related
animals great!
wolf...@aol.com
I do believe the Malamute is the closest thing to a wolf. They look
somewhat like wolves and act somewhat like them too. Just more
domesticated..
wolf...@aol.com
Anne, what I was saying to the person that wrote the first note was that
Captive wolves have never known what it is like to be in the wild. As far
as behavior goes in a captive wolf, well they are somewhat modified since
they are in a captive situation. A wild wolf would run from you right? A
captive socialized wolf will be all over you, big difference I would
say...
>Subject: Re: Alaskan Timber Wolf as a pet
>From: Anne Exton Stone <ae...@acpub.duke.edu>
>Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 18:15:42 -0500
>
>
>I'm not sure what you are saying here. Are you saying that captive wolves
>do not share any behaviors of wild wolves? Or maybe you are saying they
>share some behavior of which a desire to run is not one of them? Or maybe
>you are saying they do share a desire to run but their desires are
>different? Or perhaps that a captive wolf doesn't desire to run as much
>or as far?
>What exactly are you implying by saying captive wolves have 'never known
>the wild'
>
>If I have misread your post please let me know.
>
>anne
>
>On 13 Nov 1996 wolf...@aol.com wrote:
>
>> This is fine but what about all of the people that are breeding captive
>> wolves and they have never known the wild? Shouldn't people have a
right
>> to own what they want and if these animals are being bred in cativity,
>> shouldn't they go to good qualified homes? There is not much one can do
to
>> stop people from breeding and selling wolves or wolfdogs, but everyone
has
>> a right to their own opinions.
>>
>> >Subject: Re: Alaskan Timber Wolf as a pet
>> >Newsgroups: alt.wolves
>> >Subject: Re: Alaskan Timber Wolf as a pet
>> >Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 21:07:44 -0800
>> >Organization: Internet Connect, Inc. The Wisconsin ISP 414-476-4266
>> >http://www.inc.net
>> >Lines: 16
>> >Message-ID: <328957...@iosys.net>
>> >NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.67.20.36
>> >Mime-Version: 1.0
>> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>> >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>> >X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I)
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
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>From: Anne Exton Stone <ae...@acpub.duke.edu>
>Newsgroups: alt.wolves
>Subject: Re: Alaskan Timber Wolf as a pet
>Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 18:15:42 -0500
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clly...@aol.com
I think when this was discussed before the general contention is that ALL
dogs are now considered a sub-species of wolf. As for appearance, and
even behavior some breeds resemble the wolf more, but that is because they
have been bred for those traits(or possibly bred for other traits that
didn't affect these traits) while other breeds were bred for a different
kind of coat\temperment. From a genetic\family tree standpoint, all
classified breeds were derived from wolves so long ago that there is
little(if any) distinction in the actual geneology, at least as far as our
current ability to differentiate can see. Its like saying there are 3
drops of dye in a 50 gallon barrel, rather than 2 just by looking.
nad...@erols.com
Please give me a scientific citation on this (coyotes being in most dog
breeds). The coyote is ONLY a North American species, it occurs NOWHERE
ELSE!!! Most if not ALL breeds were developed outside North America,
other than the indian dogs and malamute types.
Rumor wrote:
>
> The voice of clly...@aol.com was heard, drifting with the wind, and
> became nestled in my furred, wolven ears. What I perceived from those
> sounds was thus:
> Remember that there is a mix of coyote blood in domesticated dogs, as
> well as several other wild dogs (I know one breed is part dingo
> descendent, but I can't remember which...)
> So, all dogs are not direct wolf descendents, but your point is still
> a good one; they are descendent from wild dogs, and wolves are _very_
> prominent in their ancestry.
> Just clearing up a small discrepancy...
>
> Rumor
Rumor
Rumor
The voice of nad...@erols.com was heard, drifting with the wind, and
became nestled in my furred, wolven ears. What I perceived from those
sounds was thus:
>Please give me a scientific citation on this (coyotes being in most dog
>breeds). The coyote is ONLY a North American species, it occurs NOWHERE
>ELSE!!! Most if not ALL breeds were developed outside North America,
>other than the indian dogs and malamute types.
Geez, I didn't say _all_ or even _most_. There _is_ some coyote blood
in some (should I say a few?) breeds, and no, I don't have any
freaking books with me, so I'm not going to give a citation.
You're taking this pretty seriously, aren't you? Point (mine): there
is more than just wolf blood in dogs. And there are wild canines
outside of NA too, of which some are part of dog breeds (hell,
probably all, but that's just speculation).
Man, calm down, Nada. I wasn't even arguing the other guy's post in my
reply.
Rumor
nad...@erols.com
Maybe you should read some on the domestication of the dog...
--
nad...@erols.com
Well, well...if it is not from scientific research that you take your
facts from, then they must be taken from your butt. Obviously you do not
give "a flying fig" because I can back up what I say and you can't. I
wish you would read more about wolves, that way we would not need to
argue.
Rumor wrote:
>
> The voice of nad...@erols.com was heard, drifting with the wind, and
> became nestled in my furred, wolven ears. What I perceived from those
> sounds was thus:
>
> >Maybe you should read some on the domestication of the dog...
>
> Don't begin to preach to me, Nada. The first domesticated dog did not
> give rise to all domesticated dogs. Just because the first (first, if
> you ignore anything but European history...) dogs were derived from
> wolves, that does not mean that all present breeds have only those
> first dogs as ancestors. Other wild-canines have been cross-bred into
> some breeds.
> Maybe you should consider more sources than library books, too.
> Frankly, I'm already tired of this argument. Consider what I say, or
> don't, I could give a flying fig. I'd rather read about wolves than
> see your incessant whining and screaming (which you do a lot,
> y'know... especially the screaming)
Rumor
Rumor
The voice of nad...@erols.com was heard, drifting with the wind, and
became nestled in my furred, wolven ears. What I perceived from those
sounds was thus:
>Well, well...if it is not from scientific research that you take your
>facts from, then they must be taken from your butt. Obviously you do not
>give "a flying fig" because I can back up what I say and you can't. I
>wish you would read more about wolves, that way we would not need to
>argue.
Now, did I say that I didn't have any scientific evidence to take my
facts from? I don't see _you_ making any citiations, Nada. I know what
I'm talking about.
Pure and simple, dog ancestry is not just wolven. And that is a fact.
Now, I'm not a phylogeny expert, 'cause that's not my field, but I had
a nice little chat with a systematics prof I know, and guess what? I'm
right.
Think about it, man. Do you really think it's possible that, over
centuries, and over all the breeds of dogs that exist, they have a
single common ancestor: the wolf?
Even common sense suggests that man must have bred other wild dogs
into the domesticated dog, on more than one occasion. If we did it
with wolves, why not other canines?
Rumor
Y'know, I think I've changed my mind. Let's keep this up. It's
becoming rather amusing, Nada.
nad...@erols.com
Your "prof" better stop reading those HSUS Dr. Fox books or other
"library books". You want citations, YOU GOT EM:
Mech, L.D. Anything he has ever written on the subject
Scott, J.P. 1968. Evolution and Domestication of the Dog. Evolutionary
Biology.
Morey, D. Anything he has ever written
Olsen, S. J. 1985. Domestication of the dog: The fossil evidence. Univ
of AZ.
Olsen, S.J. and J.W. Olsen. 1977. The Chinese wolf: ancestor of New
World Dogs. Science 197:533-535.
Degerbol, M. 1961. Preboreal dog from Star Carr. Quarternary-Zoological
Mestel, R. 1994. Ascent of the dog. Discover 15(10):92-98
Young, S.P. 1944. Other working dogs and the wild species. National
Geographic
Lawrence, B. 1967. Early Domestic dogs. Zeitscheift f. Saugetierkunde
32(1):44-59.
Iljin, N.A. 1941. Wolf-dog genetics. J. Genetics 42:359-414.
I have many more but will not waste anymore time on someone who probably
still believes the world is flat...
--
Brent L. Brock
Rumor <sa...@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca> wrote in article
<57a26f$7...@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca>...
--------------------------------- snip ------------------------------
> Pure and simple, dog ancestry is not just wolven. And that is a fact.
> Now, I'm not a phylogeny expert, 'cause that's not my field, but I had
> a nice little chat with a systematics prof I know, and guess what? I'm
> right.
If I had a nickel for every prof. that was full of shit, I'd be able to
hire Bill Gates to scrub my toilet.
Brent L. Brock
I'm not trying to bag on your arguments but, if you want to be taken
seriously, you need to back up your arguments with citations. I would also
check the dates on what you read. I don't follow the dog origins issue
closely, but I think the argument for multiple canid species in the
domestic dog lineage is a bit outdated. The latest I've seen with modern
DNA testing suggests that dogs were domesticated in many locations but
always from wolves.
Don't get defensive when your claims are challenged. Just be prepared to
back them up. Critical review is part of the scientific process.
Rumor <sa...@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca> wrote in article
<5780hq$p...@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca>...
> The voice of nad...@erols.com was heard, drifting with the wind, and
> became nestled in my furred, wolven ears. What I perceived from those
> sounds was thus:
>
Rumor
The voice of "Brent L. Brock" <blb...@ksu.ksu.edu> was heard,
drifting with the wind, and became nestled in my furred, wolven ears.
What I perceived from those sounds was thus:
>If I had a nickel for every prof. that was full of shit, I'd be able to
>hire Bill Gates to scrub my toilet.
Yeah... I can agree with that (but he's a really nice guy! really!)
=^.^=
Rumor
Rumor
The voice of nad...@erols.com was heard, drifting with the wind, and
became nestled in my furred, wolven ears. What I perceived from those
sounds was thus:
>Your "prof" better stop reading those HSUS Dr. Fox books or other
>"library books". You want citations, YOU GOT EM:
[*chomp*]
'kay, I'll take a look at those ones I haven't heard of...
>I have many more but will not waste anymore time on someone who probably
>still believes the world is flat...
Yes. That's right, Nada. I think the world is flat.
Rumor
Brent L. Brock
Is that all you can come up with Nick? :-) What do you think about Morey's
argument (1994. American Scientist Vol. 82) that wolves may have taken the
initiative towards domestication by voluntarily associating with human
camps?
nad...@erols.com wrote in article <32987F...@erols.com>...
> Your "prof" better stop reading those HSUS Dr. Fox books or other
> "library books". You want citations, YOU GOT EM:
>
> Mech, L.D. Anything he has ever written on the subject
>
> Scott, J.P. 1968. Evolution and Domestication of the Dog. Evolutionary
> Biology.
>
> Morey, D. Anything he has ever written
>
> Olsen, S. J. 1985. Domestication of the dog: The fossil evidence. Univ
> of AZ.
>
> Olsen, S.J. and J.W. Olsen. 1977. The Chinese wolf: ancestor of New
> World Dogs. Science 197:533-535.
>
> Degerbol, M. 1961. Preboreal dog from Star Carr. Quarternary-Zoological
>
> Mestel, R. 1994. Ascent of the dog. Discover 15(10):92-98
>
> Young, S.P. 1944. Other working dogs and the wild species. National
> Geographic
>
> Lawrence, B. 1967. Early Domestic dogs. Zeitscheift f. Saugetierkunde
> 32(1):44-59.
>
> Iljin, N.A. 1941. Wolf-dog genetics. J. Genetics 42:359-414.
>
> I have many more but will not waste anymore time on someone who probably
> still believes the world is flat...
> Rumor wrote:
> >
> > The voice of nad...@erols.com was heard, drifting with the wind, and
> > became nestled in my furred, wolven ears. What I perceived from those
> > sounds was thus:
> >
> > >Well, well...if it is not from scientific research that you take your
> > >facts from, then they must be taken from your butt. Obviously you do
not
> > >give "a flying fig" because I can back up what I say and you can't. I
> > >wish you would read more about wolves, that way we would not need to
> > >argue.
> >
> > Now, did I say that I didn't have any scientific evidence to
take my
> > facts from? I don't see _you_ making any citiations, Nada. I know what
> > I'm talking about.
> > Pure and simple, dog ancestry is not just wolven. And that is a
fact.
> > Now, I'm not a phylogeny expert, 'cause that's not my field, but I had
> > a nice little chat with a systematics prof I know, and guess what? I'm
> > right.
nad...@erols.com
What about it? Dogs still came from wolves...
Bob
I think you could hire Gates for about $1,000,000,000/hour to clean
your toilets. At a nickel per professor that would require some 20
billion professors. Now there may be that many, It seems like it when
you apply for a job, but I doubt it.
WB
Brent L. Brock wrote:
>
> Rumor <sa...@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca> wrote in article
> <57a26f$7...@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca>...
> --------------------------------- snip ------------------------------
> > Pure and simple, dog ancestry is not just wolven. And that is a fact.
> > Now, I'm not a phylogeny expert, 'cause that's not my field, but I had
> > a nice little chat with a systematics prof I know, and guess what? I'm
> > right.
ki...@total.net
Rumor wrote:
>
> The voice of nad...@erols.com was heard, drifting with the wind, and
> became nestled in my furred, wolven ears.
>
> I'm talking about.
> Now, I'm not a phylogeny expert, 'cause that's not my field, but I had
> a nice little chat with a systematics prof I know, and guess what? I'm
> right.
Hey Rumor; Are you sure those are "furred wolven ears" you have..? Are
you sure they`re not jackass I mean jackal, or dingbat I mean dingo
ears?
"Herre and his colleagues at the institute had come to the firm
conclusion on the basis of a large number of skull measurements and
examinations of the size and structure of the brain, blood factors, and
numbers of chromosomes that all dogs, whether Pekingese, bulldogs or
Alsatians, were descended solely from the wolf and not, as has often
been assumed, from the wolf and the jackal. "The domesticated wolf is
the dog". The Wolf, a Species in Danger, Dr. Erik Zimen, Delacorte
Press, NY, ISBN 0-440-09619-7
"The first dog domesticated by man was a wolf.... The remains found in
the Beaverhead mountains of Idaho and those found in Europe, Asia and>
pre-Columbian America all belong to the same epoch. The friendship>
between man and dog is one of the oldest and most lasting in history."
Simon & Schuster's Guide to Dogs, ISBN 0-67-1-25527-4
"Although the subject continues to be controversial, most authorities
now agree that all dogs, from chihuahuas to dobermans are descended
from
wolves which were tamed in the Near East ten or twelve thousand years
ago". Wolves, C. Savage, Sierra Club Book, ISBN 0-87156-689-3
According to Hsu and Benirschke (1967), both dog and coyote have 39
pairs of chromosomes, with the autosomes described as "acrocentrics or
teleocentrics" and the sex chromosomes as "submetacentric" for the X
and
'minute' for the Y in the coyote and "minute metacentric" for the Y in
the dog. Iljin (1941) crossed a wolf with a black mongrel sheep dog and
then made various types of crosses for four generations, totalling 101
individuals, all of which were fertile". The Mammalian Radiations,
John> F. Eisenberg, The University of Chicago Press, ISBN 0-226-19537-6
> Rumor
>
nad...@erols.com
I think it has some merit. An inside joke I started because of this
theory was: "All wild wolves are now scared of man, not because of
persecution, but because all the friendly wolves are now dogs, the only
ones left in the wild were those we could not domesticate!"
Brent L. Brock wrote:
>
> Down boy, down. Of course they came from wolves, all the genetic evidence
> points to that. I just wanted to know your opinion about Morey's argument
> that dogs were domesticated through a voluntary relationship between wolves
> and humans rather than from a conscious decision to tame and domesticate a
> wild animal. I think his argument has merit.
>
> nad...@erols.com wrote in article <3299A6...@erols.com>...
> > > > Rumor wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > The voice of nad...@erols.com was heard, drifting with the wind,
> and
> > > > > became nestled in my furred, wolven ears. What I perceived from
> those
> > > > > sounds was thus:
> > > > >
> > > > > >Well, well...if it is not from scientific research that you take
> your
> > > > > >facts from, then they must be taken from your butt. Obviously you
> do
> > > not
> > > > > >give "a flying fig" because I can back up what I say and you
> can't. I
> > > > > >wish you would read more about wolves, that way we would not need
> to
> > > > > >argue.
> > > > >
> > > > > Now, did I say that I didn't have any scientific evidence
> to
> > > take my
> > > > > facts from? I don't see _you_ making any citiations, Nada. I know
> what
> > > > > I'm talking about.
> > > > > Pure and simple, dog ancestry is not just wolven. And that
> is a
> > > fact.
> > > > > Now, I'm not a phylogeny expert, 'cause that's not my field, but I
> had
> > > > > a nice little chat with a systematics prof I know, and guess what?
> I'm
> > > > > right.
nad...@erols.com
Citation, citations, I love to see citations!!!
ki...@total.net wrote:
>
> Rumor wrote:
> >
> > The voice of nad...@erols.com was heard, drifting with the wind, and
> > became nestled in my furred, wolven ears.
> >
> I know what
> > I'm talking about.
> > Pure and simple, dog ancestry is not just wolven. And that is a fact.
> > Now, I'm not a phylogeny expert, 'cause that's not my field, but I had
> > a nice little chat with a systematics prof I know, and guess what? I'm
> > right.
>
--
Karl Tatgenhorst
Rumor,
Other than perhaps singing dogs which may be descaended from dingoes
(which may be descended from wolves) do you know of any other species
which comes from another line of canids and is called a dog?
Karl
On Sun, 24 Nov 1996, Rumor wrote:
> Date: Sun, 24 NOV 1996 18:55:11 GMT
> From: Rumor <sa...@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca>
> Newgroups: alt.wolves
> Subject: Re: Alaskan Timber Wolf as a pet
>
> The voice of nad...@erols.com was heard, drifting with the wind, and
> became nestled in my furred, wolven ears. What I perceived from those
> sounds was thus:
>
> >Well, well...if it is not from scientific research that you take your
> >facts from, then they must be taken from your butt. Obviously you do not
> >give "a flying fig" because I can back up what I say and you can't. I
> >wish you would read more about wolves, that way we would not need to
> >argue.
>
> Now, did I say that I didn't have any scientific evidence to take my
> facts from? I don't see _you_ making any citiations, Nada. I know what
> I'm talking about.
> Pure and simple, dog ancestry is not just wolven. And that is a fact.
> Now, I'm not a phylogeny expert, 'cause that's not my field, but I had
> a nice little chat with a systematics prof I know, and guess what? I'm
> right.
Brent L. Brock
alphatim...@gmail.com
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THERE IS NO MORE DANGER THAN ANY OTHER
DOG...
hamilt...@students.neoshor5.org
> We are seriously interested in having an Alaskan Timer Wolf as a pet.
> They are such magnificent creatures. I grew up showing and handling
> dogs, so I have some experience with animals. But, I worry about a wolf.
> Is there a danger of the animal turning on a human, especially a child.
> Have there been such occurances.
>
> We would appreciate knowing all about the Timber Wolf and what it is
> like as a pet, the pros and cons. Are there any good books, websites, or
> other reference materials we could research.
>
> Thanks for your help
>
> Josh and Mandy Gallawa
>
>
>
> Thanks
i had one as a pet but i got it wen it wus a babe and had to botel fead it wus the best pet i have owen thay are very smart animals the only reason y i got him wus because hus muther wus hit by a car and did not macke it he wus the anly one how sevived out of 13 puppys
