Wil Wheaton in Star Trek X
Darren Mercer
"David B." <both...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3BF22237...@hotmail.com...
> I'm sure that any Wesley Crusher haters will be disappointed with
> this...
>
>http://www.trektoday.com/news/141101_01.shtml
That's fanatastic news! Time to resurrect alt.wesley.crusher.die.die.die
Genki
<dmer...@hotmail.comnospam> smashed the keyboard with a hammer and
typed:
Xpost added to include alt.ensign.wesley.die.die.die Yes there is
another anti-Wesley NG. ;)
Phil Donaldson
be an indication that the movie won't be that good. Too bad. Guess the best
TNG film will have been "First Contact". Wish these guys hadn't run out of
ideas.
Darren Mercer wrote:
--
____________________________________
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
Phil Donaldson
(570) 588-9583 direct
(570) 588-5222 fax
(732) 690-6750 cell
ph...@ptd.net
Zygon Curry
>
> Well, there's one reason to wait for the film to come to video. This must
> be an indication that the movie won't be that good. Too bad. Guess the best
> TNG film will have been "First Contact". Wish these guys hadn't run out of
> ideas.
I don't think Trek 10 will be the last Trek film. It's to big a
franchise for Paramount to ignore and there's only one cast currently
capable of holding Trek film and that's the TNG cast. I don't think
either DS9 or Voyager are strong enough to do a film. But thats just my
opinion!
Tonka
> I don't think Trek 10 will be the last Trek film. It's to big a
> franchise for Paramount to ignore and there's only one cast currently
> capable of holding Trek film and that's the TNG cast. I don't think
> either DS9 or Voyager are strong enough to do a film. But thats just my
> opinion!
Well Voyager's series has come to a natural conclusion. One would expect
that ship and it's crew to break up. Half of them would be getting
promotions and the other half would be joining Janeway on a prison planet
:-E
However a DS9/Voyager cast movie I could see happening if they got
desperate. But, oh boy, they would have to be desperate.
--
Evil Tonka MCP
Jester
Janeway.
"Tonka" <N...@way.com> wrote in message
news:CZuJ7.50395$Ic2.3...@news.easynews.com...
Tonka
> Well, it seems that she gets the promotion too. She is cast as Admiral
> Janeway.
I was under the impression that the decision as to whether she'd be in the
movie was up in the air at the moment?
--
Evil Tonka MCP
Anybody
<tjj...@stargate.net> wrote:
Another thought: Sisko's line about coming back next year or maybe
yesterday (or something like that) COULD be the link to a prequel movie
where we see Sisko performing taks for the Prophets in the time line
before DS9, maybe him and "Old Man" Dax having adventures.
I doubt it though - it would have to be an entirely fresh crew, which
is unlikely for a Star Trek movie.
Genki
keyboard with a hammer and typed:
>I was under the impression that the decision as to whether she'd be in the
>movie was up in the air at the moment?
I'd think so since the Adm. Janeway we saw was from an aternate
timeline that never happened when Capt. Janeway went ahead and used
the transwarp conduit to get home.
Bozo the Evil Klown
I expect they'll drop in some of the more popular DS9 and Vger cast,
as TNG regs price themselves out of the franchise. Trek films have
already featured DS9 characters (Worf, the Defiant) and Vger
characters (EMH, Bored Queen). Rumor has Kate Mulgrew and/or Jeri
Ryan doing a cameo in Trek 10.
Graham Kennedy
Or they might start churning out Enterprise movies. It's rare
to do movies and a TV series at the same time, but if X Files
can manage it then why not Trek?
--
Graham Kennedy
Author, Daystrom Institute Technical Library
http://www.ditl.org
Jason Dean
--
Jason Dean
FreeWill Productions
www.freewillproductions.com
"Graham Kennedy" <gra...@adeadend.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3BF6A4CD...@adeadend.demon.co.uk...
Tonka
> On Sat, 17 Nov 2001 20:20:23 GMT, Keeper of the Purple Twilight
> >The real Janeway would be promoted to Admiral upon their return home.
>
> The true question to this promotion is; why? She gets
> promoted for pissing off just about every sentient race Voyager comes
> across on their way home? That's hardly worth a promotion, more like
> a free all-expense paid trip to the New Zealand Penal Island, if you
> ask me.
Absolutely right!!! I remember that episode where another Starfleet captain
that got stuck in the Delta Quadrant asks her if she had ever broken the
Prime directive and the bitch said no!!! I couldn't believe it when I heard
that cos I remembered the deal with the Borg. And more directly the deal
with the Kazon she did were she admitted at the end of the episode that they
should never have broken the prime directive. I don't mind her breaking the
directive cos I think it's a stupid rule but to lie about it afterwards was
totally off.
--
Evil Tonka MCP
Graham Kennedy
>
> On Sat, 17 Nov 2001 20:20:23 GMT, Keeper of the Purple Twilight
> <bri...@home.com> wrote:
>
> >The real Janeway would be promoted to Admiral upon their return home.
>
> The true question to this promotion is; why? She gets
> promoted for pissing off just about every sentient race Voyager comes
> across on their way home? That's hardly worth a promotion, more like
> a free all-expense paid trip to the New Zealand Penal Island, if you
> ask me.
My guess : we know that the Voyager crew had become big
celebrities once the folks back home found out about their
situation. Starfleet couldn't face the publicity of a court
martial, and very much wanted to keep Seven of Nine friendly
to them because of all the Borg info she carries. They also
know that they can't possibly let Janeway near a captain's
chair again.
Solution : promote her to a desk job where she can tour around
giving lectures and interviews and never cause trouble again.
Tonka
> celebrities once the folks back home found out about their
> situation. Starfleet couldn't face the publicity of a court
> martial, and very much wanted to keep Seven of Nine friendly
> to them because of all the Borg info she carries. They also
> know that they can't possibly let Janeway near a captain's
> chair again.
>
> Solution : promote her to a desk job where she can tour around
> giving lectures and interviews and never cause trouble again.
They do this in British politics alot. Promoting someone to a quango job
that pays more but actual has no power whatsoever. Bad way to get rid of the
chaff if you ask me but at least they aren't actually able to DO anything.
--
Evil Tonka MCP
Graham Kennedy
They used to chuck people up to the house of lords, but they're
messing that up somewhat these days. Ambassador is always a nice
one as well, because you can taylor it according to how much
you want to punish somebody by which country you give them.
Compare "Congratulations, you are now ambassador to the United
States of America..." with "Congratulations, you are now ambassador
to Syria..."
Patrick Lee
"Merrick Baldelli" <mbal...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> The true question to this promotion is; why? She gets
> promoted for pissing off just about every sentient race Voyager comes
> across on their way home? That's hardly worth a promotion, more like
> a free all-expense paid trip to the New Zealand Penal Island, if you
> ask me.
I don't know about that. A lot of the races they encountered were, for the
lack of a better term, buttheads: the Kazon were sexist and unworthy of
assimilation, the Vaudwaar were arrogant idiots (in fact that's what the
word means in Talaxian!), the Krenim with Red Forman from That 70's Show in
the driver's seat (Year of Hell) were obnoxious and overbearing, the Devore
(from Counterpoint) were "racist" against telepaths, the Malon were greedy
dumpster bastards, that spy race that look like coneheads were greedy spying
bastards, the Hirogen were scavenger Klingons without honor, the Pralor and
Kraveck robots from Prototype were master-killing biotches, Species 8472 and
the Borg aren't likely to win the congeniality awards any time soon. You
could hardly blame Janeway for serving all these races a big heaping can of
whoop-ass. I'm sorry, but the more digging up I did, the more I realized
that I'd have to strongly disagree with you. As many reviewers have said in
their reviews (most notably in Jim Delta Blues site), the Delta quadrant is
a tough place to be, this is not your usual Enterprise D armed to the teeth
and with tons of backup at hand making first contact with some backwater
world in the Alpha Quadrant. Heck, this isn't even the Defiant with Sisko
in command with the most heavily armed ship in the Federation and a cloaking
device serving the Jem Hadar a big can of whoop ass (at least in this case
you know who the enemy is and their capabilities). The Delta Quadrant is
like the Wild West and as far as things go, Janeway did good. And when you
consider the BS that Kirk got away with (and the BS Archer is now getting
away with), Janeway, should be made the Fleet Admiral.
Patrick Lee
"Graham Kennedy" <gra...@adeadend.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> My guess : we know that the Voyager crew had become big
> celebrities once the folks back home found out about their
> situation. Starfleet couldn't face the publicity of a court
> martial, and very much wanted to keep Seven of Nine friendly
> to them because of all the Borg info she carries. They also
> know that they can't possibly let Janeway near a captain's
> chair again.
>
> Solution : promote her to a desk job where she can tour around
> giving lectures and interviews and never cause trouble again.
It's what I would call the "Lethal Weapon" solution :) I recently saw
Lethal Weapon 4 on TV where they promoted Mel Gibson and Danny Glover to
Captains (that's 2 steps up from where they were) to get them off the force
so their precinct could be insured. Your suggestion is the so-called
politically correct one, and probably the one B&B would go for imo.
Tonka
> Kraveck robots from Prototype were master-killing biotches, Species 8472
and
> the Borg aren't likely to win the congeniality awards any time soon. You
> could hardly blame Janeway for serving all these races a big heaping can
of
> whoop-ass. I'm sorry, but the more digging up I did, the more I realized
On species 8472 I would have to disagree. They were going to whoop the borg
and rid the galaxy of it's biggest problem and which side does Janeway
choose to be on? That's right the wrong one. 8472 were shown in a much
better light in a later episode and that just made the fuck up more glaring.
--
Evil Tonka MCP
DaRtHpAnThEr
film they got home!!!!
Zygon Curry wrote in message <3BF665...@logopolis.clara.net>...
Hugh G. Rection
Patrick Lee
"Tonka" <N...@way.com> wrote:
> On species 8472 I would have to disagree. They were going to whoop the borg
> and rid the galaxy of it's biggest problem and which side does Janeway
> choose to be on? That's right the wrong one. 8472 were shown in a much
> better light in a later episode and that just made the fuck up more glaring.
Well, what actually happened:
http://www.treknews.com/deltablues/scorpion2.html
...was that the Borg invaded fluidic space to attempt to assimilate Species
8472, their thinking being that they were the ultimate biological lifeform,
which would greatly add to their perfection. But when they got there, 8472
served them a major cube of whoop-ass. The problem was, 8472 was so pissed
that instead of just declaring war on the Borg, they decided in their
infinite wisdom that they would declare war on our entire non-fluidic
universe. Remember when the 8472 gave Kes the telepathic message, "The weak
shall perish?" and Kes tried to tell him that Voyager was not their enemy,
and Mr. 8472 basically said, "I don't care, we'll kill you anyway"? In
other words, 8472 was formally at war with Voyager. Since the Borg were
never considered officially at war with the Federation, in this case, the
lesser of two evils would actually be to make a deal with the Borg. In
either case, both the Borg and 8472 were enemies, so fighting either, one,
or both would have been no different, so therefore, Janeway is completely
absolved from any wrong-doing in the Scorpion situation.
Damn I'd love to be Janeway's lawyer! :)
Tonka
You talk to ONE foot soldier and decide an entire war strategy on that
basis. Could have tried chatting some more I'd say.
> other words, 8472 was formally at war with Voyager. Since the Borg were
> never considered officially at war with the Federation, in this case, the
Never officially at war??? I leave that one cos that's just such a stinker I
don't even need to comment further.
> lesser of two evils would actually be to make a deal with the Borg. In
> either case, both the Borg and 8472 were enemies, so fighting either, one,
> or both would have been no different, so therefore, Janeway is completely
> absolved from any wrong-doing in the Scorpion situation.
>
> Damn I'd love to be Janeway's lawyer! :)
I'd love it too. You'd get her hung as well as court marshalled! :-)
--
Evil Tonka MCP
Patrick Lee
"Tonka" <N...@way.com> wrote:
> You talk to ONE foot soldier and decide an entire war strategy on that
> basis. Could have tried chatting some more I'd say.
Let's just trust the story, when the species declared war on our universe as
a whole, then yeah, one foot soldier is pretty much enough to get the hint,
especially since it would be about as obvious as an airplane crashing into a
skyscraper.
> Never officially at war??? I leave that one cos that's just such a stinker I
> don't even need to comment further.
There's an episode of one of the newer Trek shows, where two Starfleet
officers debate about whether or not we are indeed "at war" with the Borg,
perhaps someone here will remember it. It could even be one of the movies,
but since I don't completely remember and can't quote the reference, I there
cannot use it as a valid point of debate. So hopefully someone here can
bail me out of this one :)
In the Voyager episode "Hope and Fear", the Borg are described by Arcturis,
a member of Species 116, who were assimilated by the Borg. He said and I
quote, "The Borg Collective is like a force of nature. You don't feel anger
toward a storm on the horizon. You just avoid it." Straight from the mouth
of an assimilated species.
Jason Dean
virus on Hugh, the Admiral may have said that because they were at war, it
was a good enough reason, can't be sure.
--
Jason Dean
FreeWill Productions
www.freewillproductions.com
"Patrick Lee" <kestr...@home.com> wrote in message
news:B8204BE2.5D4E%kestr...@home.com...
Spooky Guy Next Door
(gra...@adeadend.demon.co.uk) posted the following...
I thought you had rules about cruel and unusual punishment in the UK?
Gods, imagine being made ambassador to the USA! <shudder />
:o)
--
The ideas expressed in the above post are my own, with the possible
exception of the one involving a scarecrow and a stick of butter.
blog - http://www.cyberfuddle.com/infinitebabble/
cyberfuddle - http://www.cyberfuddle.com/
learn HTML - http://smiley.vh.mewl.net/markhtml/
Tonka
> I thought you had rules about cruel and unusual punishment in the UK?
>
> Gods, imagine being made ambassador to the USA! <shudder />
I don't know. Apparently the American's have a group called "Interns" that
service people in high positions. Sounds ok to me.
--
Evil Tonka MCP
(Have a cigar)
Graham Kennedy
Hey, I *like* the USA! They're just like us, but armed
and with no healthcare.
;-)
Graham Kennedy
>
> I remember Picard got a good dressing down by an Admiral for not using that
> virus on Hugh, the Admiral may have said that because they were at war, it
> was a good enough reason, can't be sure.
Which is odd, because the Federation is not at war with the Borg
and never has been, that we know of.
Spooky Guy Next Door
(gra...@adeadend.demon.co.uk) posted the following...
> Hey, I *like* the USA! They're just like us, but armed
And that thought doesn't terrify you? :o)
Graham Kennedy
>
> (gra...@adeadend.demon.co.uk) posted the following...
>
> > Hey, I *like* the USA! They're just like us, but armed
>
> And that thought doesn't terrify you? :o)
Not really, you see I like them from three thousand miles away.
I'm out of range...
zeroG
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"zeroG" <zer...@email.com> wrote in message
news:TUgL7.1197$%t7.355...@newssvr30.news.prodigy.com...
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----- Original Message -----
From: zeroG
Newsgroups: alt.freaks
Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 4:21 PM
Subject: Dotcomma iT PROPOSAL
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GET YOU SOME OF THAT BOY PUSSY [.][.]
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"zeroG" <zer...@email.com> wrote in message
news:zGbL7.1125$YL1.33...@newssvr30.news.prodigy.com...
its just sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo funny that the entire proposal was a
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google losers., and sahe aint telling
knoh knoh
"zeroG" <zer...@email.com> wrote in message
news:th%K7.932$iL7.25...@newssvr30.news.prodigy.com...
hmmmmmmm...........
<o>
"zeroG" <zer...@email.com> wrote in message
news:myVK7.663$eu2.20...@newssvr30.news.prodigy.com...
Et in Arcadia ego
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.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,
.,.,.,.,.,.,
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google
where is cougarchick77 when you really need her
LOSERS
[.]
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HONK HONK
"Darren Mercer" <dmer...@hotmail.comnospam> wrote in message
news:3bf25a98$0$5047$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
>
> "David B." <both...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:3BF22237...@hotmail.com...
> > I'm sure that any Wesley Crusher haters will be disappointed with
> > this...
> >
> >http://www.trektoday.com/news/141101_01.shtml
>
> That's fanatastic news! Time to resurrect alt.wesley.crusher.die.die.die
>
>
>
>
>
Janeway
Except for the small fact that Species 8472 was much more dangerous
than the Borg at the time, and had announced their intention to
"purge" our galaxy. I think that qualifies them as the more
dangerous.
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Tonka
> Except for the small fact that Species 8472 was much more dangerous
> than the Borg at the time, and had announced their intention to
> "purge" our galaxy. I think that qualifies them as the more
> dangerous.
And which later we find out they had been attacked by the Borg and only
intended to wipe them out. Janeway only asked one soldier who probably
didn't understand what was going on. A clear case of Leaping without
Looking.
--
Evil Tonka MCP
Patrick Lee
"Tonka" <N...@way.com> wrote:
> And which later we find out they had been attacked by the Borg and only
> intended to wipe them out.
No, 8472 decided that the Borg were representative of life in our galaxy and
therefore, the entire galaxy should be purged, not just the Borg.
Graham Kennedy
If that's true then why did they agree a peace
treaty later on? Once they got over the fact
that Janeway had launched an unprovoked attack
on them, they were quite reasonable about things.
Patrick Lee
"Graham Kennedy" <gra...@adeadend.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> If that's true then why did they agree a peace
> treaty later on? Once they got over the fact
> that Janeway had launched an unprovoked attack
> on them, they were quite reasonable about things.
They were willing to negotiate *only after* they realized that Voyager had
the modified nanoprobe whoop ass torpedoes and they were no longer
"invincible".
Merrick Baldelli
<gra...@adeadend.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>My guess : we know that the Voyager crew had become big
>celebrities once the folks back home found out about their
>situation. Starfleet couldn't face the publicity of a court
>martial, and very much wanted to keep Seven of Nine friendly
>to them because of all the Borg info she carries. They also
>know that they can't possibly let Janeway near a captain's
>chair again.
>
>Solution : promote her to a desk job where she can tour around
>giving lectures and interviews and never cause trouble again.
This is twentieth century thinking, and not something
predominant to the twenty-fourth century. I would think equal justice
for all would mean just that, by the altruistic twenty-fourth century,
no?
--
-=-=-/ )=*=-='=-.-'-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
_( (_ , '_ * . Merrick Baldelli
(((\ \> /_1 ` UIN#: 788639
(\\\\ \_/ /
-=-\ /-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
\ _/
/ /
Merrick Baldelli
wrote:
>I don't know about that. A lot of the races they encountered were, for the
>lack of a better term, buttheads:
[snippity do dah]
And by who's prejudice are you claiming knowing this by?
Yours or theirs? In every case that you've described, Voyager and
Janeway were the trespassers. Did Janeway follow the Prime Directive
when it came to dealing with these races? Did she even use diplomacy
when she approached these races? More often times than naught, no --
she lead with her jaw expecting them to throw the first punch. And
when they did, she pulled all sorts of attitude then.
Tonka
and
> therefore, the entire galaxy should be purged, not just the Borg.
I guess you didn't see the later Voyager episode that cleared that matter up
once and for all.
--
Evil Tonka MCP
Graham Kennedy
If you watch the episode, that's not what happens at all.
They knew that Voyager had the nanoprobes from Scorpion,
yet were unwilling to deal until Janeway showed that they
could trust her by disarming her weapons.
Graham Kennedy
>
> On Mon, 19 Nov 2001 17:31:55 +0000, Graham Kennedy
> <gra...@adeadend.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >My guess : we know that the Voyager crew had become big
> >celebrities once the folks back home found out about their
> >situation. Starfleet couldn't face the publicity of a court
> >martial, and very much wanted to keep Seven of Nine friendly
> >to them because of all the Borg info she carries. They also
> >know that they can't possibly let Janeway near a captain's
> >chair again.
> >
> >Solution : promote her to a desk job where she can tour around
> >giving lectures and interviews and never cause trouble again.
>
> This is twentieth century thinking, and not something
> predominant to the twenty-fourth century. I would think equal justice
> for all would mean just that, by the altruistic twenty-fourth century,
> no?
We often see such alturistic thinking on the part of Starfleet
Captains, but Admirals are rarely so nice. I can easily see
them pulling such a stunt to solve the Janeway problem.
Patrick Lee
"Tonka" <N...@way.com> wrote:
> I guess you didn't see the later Voyager episode that cleared that matter up
> once and for all.
I did, but that seemed like a tacked-on writing device to "make nice" just
so the writers could undo the mistake they made earlier.
Bob
Baldelli <mbal...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 20 Nov 2001 07:44:07 GMT, Patrick Lee <kestr...@home.com>
> wrote:
>
> >I don't know about that. A lot of the races they encountered were, for the
> >lack of a better term, buttheads:
> [snippity do dah]
>
> And by who's prejudice are you claiming knowing this by?
> Yours or theirs? In every case that you've described, Voyager and
> Janeway were the trespassers. Did Janeway follow the Prime Directive
> when it came to dealing with these races? Did she even use diplomacy
> when she approached these races? More often times than naught, no --
> she lead with her jaw expecting them to throw the first punch. And
> when they did, she pulled all sorts of attitude then.
Janeway is the least ethical of all the different series lead
characters - she's murdered crewmembers (Tuvix), she violated the Prime
Directive when it suited her and then got all sanctimonious when she
upheld it. They even culminated the series by having her violate the
Temporal Prime Directive just to resurrect a handful of individuals who
had sworn to uphold the TPD even if it resulted in death and handed
over temporally advanced anti-Borg technology to the Borg in the
process.
She exemplifies everything the Roddenberry Federation was NOT supposed
to be. If what she did was right the Federation isn't on any moral
high ground but just one more bully on the block.
--
"It is the test of a good religion whether you can joke about it."
- G. K. Chesterton
Patrick Lee
"Graham Kennedy" <gra...@adeadend.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> We often see such alturistic thinking on the part of Starfleet
> Captains, but Admirals are rarely so nice. I can easily see
> them pulling such a stunt to solve the Janeway problem.
But is Janeway really a problem? I still haven't seen evidence that makes
me stop and think and say to myself, hey yeah, that Katheryn Janeway is a
menage to the quadrant, Delta AND Alpha. She's one of the youngest to make
Captain, tried as best she could to go by the books while in the Delta
Quadrant - for a good contrast, look at Rudy Ransom of the Equinox - you
don't seen Janeway using the dead bodies of innocent aliens to speed up her
warp drive.
Someone here mentioned that Janeway is a trespasser. Well, usually what
happens when Voyager is trying to go home is that it encounters a race (say,
the Krenim or Delore), Janeway hails, explains the situation, that they are
a lost ship just trying to get home and would like passage if possible. If
they say no, she tries to make a trade or negotiation of some sort. The
response most of the time is either weapons fire from the Delta race, or
even more usual, is that they want to board the ship, strip search and anal
probe the entire crew, and then confiscate the vessel. Now if you're
Janeway and some ridgehead wants to go on your ship, rip it apart like the
car of a crack dealer on the US/Mexican-border and then take your ship by
force, what are you going to do? I don't know about you, but I'm going to
raise shields, lock phasers, and fire photon torpedoes, maximum yield, full
spread.
In short, Janeway did good in a bad situation and IMO, along with the death
blow to the Borg, comes out smelling like roses. See how freaked out Picard
got when Q transported the Enterprise to the Delta quadrant for a few hours?
He was begging and pleading with Q for mercy. Janeway went through that for
7 years gaining much more experience in that time than it a Captain would in
40 years in the Alpha Quadrant. She deserves the Admiral rank.
Patrick Lee
<B...@nospam4me.com> wrote:
> Janeway is the least ethical of all the different series lead
> characters - she's murdered crewmembers (Tuvix),
That's a very deep and difficult ethical question you bring up. Let me put
it to you this way: let's say a transporter accident happens - your wife
and daughter are beaming up from a planet surface and when the
rematerialize, they've combined into one person! What are you going to do?
Do you want your wife and daughter back? If you answer that you'd be trying
to make the moves on this new babe, I'm going to hurl. The point is, the
Tuvix issue is not as black and white as you think.
> she violated the Prime
> Directive when it suited her and then got all sanctimonious when she
> upheld it. They even culminated the series by having her violate the
> Temporal Prime Directive just to resurrect a handful of individuals who
> had sworn to uphold the TPD even if it resulted in death and handed
> over temporally advanced anti-Borg technology to the Borg in the
> process.
Just out of curiosity, when did the Temporal Prime Directive first get
mentioned? I recalled in DS9 there was an episode where some officers
interrogated Sisko in his office. But gee, that writer device came out of
nowhere. As for the Borg, they are dead. Game over.
> She exemplifies everything the Roddenberry Federation was NOT supposed
> to be. If what she did was right the Federation isn't on any moral
> high ground but just one more bully on the block.
GOOD! I hate to say it but IMO, Star Trek took a quantum leap (no pun
intended) in quality when Roddenberry died. Yes, he's the progenitor and
all, but even in the example of a business, the founder after a certain
period of time in many cases has to hand over the company to more capable
people to be CEO. His time was way overdue. His seed ideas are great, but
I put forward the proposition that his implementations of them are not as
high-quality.
Graham Kennedy
>
> On 11/25/01 5:50 PM, in article 3C0175AA...@adeadend.demon.co.uk,
> "Graham Kennedy" <gra...@adeadend.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > We often see such alturistic thinking on the part of Starfleet
> > Captains, but Admirals are rarely so nice. I can easily see
> > them pulling such a stunt to solve the Janeway problem.
>
> But is Janeway really a problem? I still haven't seen evidence that makes
> me stop and think and say to myself, hey yeah, that Katheryn Janeway is a
> menage to the quadrant, Delta AND Alpha. She's one of the youngest to make
> Captain, tried as best she could to go by the books while in the Delta
> Quadrant - for a good contrast, look at Rudy Ransom of the Equinox - you
> don't seen Janeway using the dead bodies of innocent aliens to speed up her
> warp drive.
But you do see her murdering people because she wants her
friends back. I don't believe that we have ever seen any
other captain participate in a cold blooded murder before.
> Someone here mentioned that Janeway is a trespasser. Well, usually what
> happens when Voyager is trying to go home is that it encounters a race (say,
> the Krenim or Delore), Janeway hails, explains the situation, that they are
> a lost ship just trying to get home and would like passage if possible. If
> they say no, she tries to make a trade or negotiation of some sort. The
> response most of the time is either weapons fire from the Delta race, or
> even more usual, is that they want to board the ship, strip search and anal
> probe the entire crew, and then confiscate the vessel. Now if you're
> Janeway and some ridgehead wants to go on your ship, rip it apart like the
> car of a crack dealer on the US/Mexican-border and then take your ship by
> force, what are you going to do? I don't know about you, but I'm going to
> raise shields, lock phasers, and fire photon torpedoes, maximum yield, full
> spread.
Which is why you would make a bad captain. When faced with a
situation like this, what Janeway *should* do is go around!
Turn it around : suppose an alien ship turned up at *your*
borders and asked to pass through your territory. You tell
them that there will have to be a rigorous customs inspection,
and they reply by raising shields, locking phasers, and firing
photon torpedoes, maximum yield, full spread. What would you
think of the captain of that ship?
But Janeway's problem is not so much that she is a gung ho
loony half the time. It's more that when she isn't in the
mood to be a gung ho loony, she spouts off at everybody
else about Federation ethics and morality and how it's so
wrong to be a gung ho loony! The end result is that the
character comes off as so hypocritical that I actually
began to wonder if the writers were deliberately trying
to show a Starfleet captain who had mental problems.
> In short, Janeway did good in a bad situation and IMO, along with the death
> blow to the Borg, comes out smelling like roses. See how freaked out Picard
> got when Q transported the Enterprise to the Delta quadrant for a few hours?
> He was begging and pleading with Q for mercy. Janeway went through that for
> 7 years gaining much more experience in that time than it a Captain would in
> 40 years in the Alpha Quadrant. She deserves the Admiral rank.
She deserves a court martial and a jail cell.
Graham Kennedy
>
> In article <3C0189D0...@adeadend.demon.co.uk>, Graham Kennedy
> <gra...@adeadend.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > Turn it around : suppose an alien ship turned up at *your*
> > borders and asked to pass through your territory. You tell
> > them that there will have to be a rigorous customs inspection,
> > and they reply by raising shields, locking phasers, and firing
> > photon torpedoes, maximum yield, full spread. What would you
> > think of the captain of that ship?
>
> I could imprison them for life, I'd expect her to open fire on my ass.
And I would expect her to GO AROUND.
Bob
<kestr...@home.com> wrote:
> On 11/25/01 6:56 PM, in article 9ts0g0$s7s$0...@216.39.173.69, "Bob"
> <B...@nospam4me.com> wrote:
>
> > Janeway is the least ethical of all the different series lead
> > characters - she's murdered crewmembers (Tuvix),
>
> That's a very deep and difficult ethical question you bring up. Let me put
> it to you this way: let's say a transporter accident happens - your wife
> and daughter are beaming up from a planet surface and when the
> rematerialize, they've combined into one person! What are you going to do?
> Do you want your wife and daughter back? If you answer that you'd be trying
> to make the moves on this new babe, I'm going to hurl. The point is, the
> Tuvix issue is not as black and white as you think.
Actually it is - they had accepted Tuvix as a crewmember, he
specifically stated he did not want the lethal procedure done, and the
Federation has only one infraction that will impose a death penalty.
If he disobeyed the commander's order he should have been dealt with
the way any crewmember would who disobeyed an order, i.e. with some
punishment, but that would not have involved a death penalty.
Unfortunately under Janeway it did.
If violating rules and regulations is justified by merely because it
would save lives then that would mean they could time travel back and
prevent every death, but that's is proscribed also. Oops, that's
right, not for Janeway.
> > she violated the Prime
> > Directive when it suited her and then got all sanctimonious when she
> > upheld it. They even culminated the series by having her violate the
> > Temporal Prime Directive just to resurrect a handful of individuals who
> > had sworn to uphold the TPD even if it resulted in death and handed
> > over temporally advanced anti-Borg technology to the Borg in the
> > process.
>
> Just out of curiosity, when did the Temporal Prime Directive first get
> mentioned? I recalled in DS9 there was an episode where some officers
> interrogated Sisko in his office. But gee, that writer device came out of
> nowhere. As for the Borg, they are dead. Game over.
No, they aren't. As has been stated before, the Borg Queen is
holographic in nature and exists throughout the Borg even though she
manifests in discrete locations at times (established in First Contact)
- destroying the one manifestation by Janeway was a setback, hardly the
end of the Borg. But we do know that the entire Borg has the new
shielding technology, the weapons tech and maybe even the cloaking
tech. Janeway is a traitor to the Federation for the sake of a her
trying to ease her own guilty conscious.
> > She exemplifies everything the Roddenberry Federation was NOT supposed
> > to be. If what she did was right the Federation isn't on any moral
> > high ground but just one more bully on the block.
>
> GOOD! I hate to say it but IMO, Star Trek took a quantum leap (no pun
> intended) in quality when Roddenberry died. Yes, he's the progenitor and
> all, but even in the example of a business, the founder after a certain
> period of time in many cases has to hand over the company to more capable
> people to be CEO. His time was way overdue. His seed ideas are great, but
> I put forward the proposition that his implementations of them are not as
> high-quality.
Hardly. The Roddenberry Federation was a lfoty goal to strive for, the
Janeway Federation is something that I could sympathize with
revolutionaries trying to overthrow it.
Patrick Lee
"Graham Kennedy" <gra...@adeadend.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> Which is why you would make a bad captain. When faced with a
> situation like this, what Janeway *should* do is go around!
I disagree, going around is not an option. A trip of 70,000 light years is
already difficult enough, if they were to go around every race they
encountered, they might as well have warped to the outer edge of the
Southern spiral arm, cruised along the perimeter and navigated the
circumference of the galaxy until we reached the Western spiral arm.
Doesn't take a PhD in geometry to know that it would probably triple if not
quadruple the trip home. Once again I say, not an option.
> Turn it around : suppose an alien ship turned up at *your*
> borders and asked to pass through your territory. You tell
> them that there will have to be a rigorous customs inspection,
> and they reply by raising shields, locking phasers, and firing
> photon torpedoes, maximum yield, full spread. What would you
> think of the captain of that ship?
If your example were to be accurate, then the "customs inspections" would
involve confiscating the ship and taking the crew as prisoners. That is not
how a civilized society operates, that is piracy.
Patrick Lee
of the Purple Twilight" <bri...@home.com> wrote:
> In article <3C0189D0...@adeadend.demon.co.uk>, Graham Kennedy
> <gra...@adeadend.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Turn it around : suppose an alien ship turned up at *your*
>> borders and asked to pass through your territory. You tell
>> them that there will have to be a rigorous customs inspection,
>> and they reply by raising shields, locking phasers, and firing
>> photon torpedoes, maximum yield, full spread. What would you
>> think of the captain of that ship?
>
> If I had ordered her to surrender all telepathic members of her crew so
> I could imprison them for life, I'd expect her to open fire on my ass.
I agree completely. I think in the case of the Devore empire, they executed
telepaths. If some race hailed me and told me they wanted to execute
members of my crew, yeah, I'd open fire. Just a guess but I'm sure there's
a Starfleet General Order that says something about the Captain being
responsibly for the safety and well-being of his/her crew.
Bob
Graham Kennedy wrote:
And if "going around" is not feasable?
Bob
Tonka
> so the writers could undo the mistake they made earlier.
Oh damn I actually agree with that :-(
Felt like a way to just bring the whole 847685758578579 debacle to a long
needed close.
--
Evil Tonka MCP
Tonka
> And I would expect her to GO AROUND.
Like 6 months would be so much of a hardship on a journey that's going to
take 70 odd fookin years. I couldn't agree with you more Graham :-)
--
Evil Tonka MCP
Tonka
is
> already difficult enough, if they were to go around every race they
> encountered, they might as well have warped to the outer edge of the
They didn't have too. Only occasionally did they get asked to go round. Or
at least keep to a bloody set course that might have been a bit slow. But
nooo. Charge right through they did. Piss people off they did ... Sorry I
seem to have turned into Yoda for some strange reason. :-)
> Southern spiral arm, cruised along the perimeter and navigated the
> circumference of the galaxy until we reached the Western spiral arm.
> Doesn't take a PhD in geometry to know that it would probably triple if
not
> quadruple the trip home. Once again I say, not an option.
LOL. Exaggerating you are.
--
Evil Tonka MCP
(dammit Yoda die you little muppet)
Tonka
that would not have involved a death penalty.
> Unfortunately under Janeway it did.
You remember those episodes were she plays the "evil" Janeway (both were
doctor episodes if I remember correctly). One where she had black gloves
etc. I couldn't tell the difference between her playing the bad Janeway and
the "good" (but actually as evil as fuck) Janeway. :-)
--
Evil Tonka MCP
Tonka
> And if "going around" is not feasable?
There definition of not feasible was pretty bloody tight. A couple of months
to go around and they would say no. On a trip that might take 70+ years that
seems kinda goofy. Besides the numbers they come up with for how long it
would take to go around were always ridiculously large. Never believed any
one of them. This is a quadrant where Kazon take 2 series to get away
from... Yeah right.
--
Evil Tonka MCP
Bob
Tonka wrote:
But what if it were not just 6 months. What about 6 years. What about 60
years.
Was it established in the ep just how long it would add to the trip? ( No, of
course I don't remember. If I did, would I ask the question?)
Bob
Bob
Tonka wrote:
You're not in trouble until you start imitating Jar-Jar.
Bob
Graham Kennedy
It would be seriously difficult for that to be the
case. To make going around impossible you would need
a power which spread across Voyager's path such that
they were right acorss the plane of the galaxy at
right angles to Voyager's course, in every direction
through the whole extent of the galaxy. And then they
would have to extend far enough beyond the galaxy that
Voyager lacked the range to get out there and back.
There is no such power, or at least none was ever seen
in Voyager. The only people who came close were the
Borg, and they don't seem to have a very clearly
defined territory at all.
Janeway's threshold for committing an act of war
against another species could be as little as having
to add another 15 months to their trip. That's less
than a 2% increase on their expected journey time!
Think of it as having sombody smash your front door
down so they could walk through your house to get
to the next street, because it was 98 yards instead
of 100 if they did it that way.
Graham Kennedy
That's true. But I remember somebody posting a HUGE analysis
of Scorpion on the NG, just after it aired, which made this
exact point - Voyager based their perception of the entire
species on one single telepathic contact with one soldier.
A soldier who was engaged in battling against a rutheless
enemy determined to assimilate his entire species.
Suppose a telepath read Picard's mind during his "I will
make them PAY..." talk with Lily on the E-E in "First
Contact". What impression would they have of Humanity,
based on that one single contact?
I agree that the writers probably intended 8472 as an
"evil uber-villain" species, and then changed their mind
later, but when you think about it the second version does
make more sense.
Graham Kennedy
>
> On 11/25/01 7:16 PM, in article 3C0189D0...@adeadend.demon.co.uk,
> "Graham Kennedy" <gra...@adeadend.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > Which is why you would make a bad captain. When faced with a
> > situation like this, what Janeway *should* do is go around!
>
> I disagree, going around is not an option. A trip of 70,000 light years is
> already difficult enough, if they were to go around every race they
> encountered, they might as well have warped to the outer edge of the
> Southern spiral arm, cruised along the perimeter and navigated the
> circumference of the galaxy until we reached the Western spiral arm.
> Doesn't take a PhD in geometry to know that it would probably triple if not
> quadruple the trip home. Once again I say, not an option.
Hmm, maybe they should re-word all the Stafleet regulations
to have "unless it's *really* inconvenient" on the end of them...
> > Turn it around : suppose an alien ship turned up at *your*
> > borders and asked to pass through your territory. You tell
> > them that there will have to be a rigorous customs inspection,
> > and they reply by raising shields, locking phasers, and firing
> > photon torpedoes, maximum yield, full spread. What would you
> > think of the captain of that ship?
>
> If your example were to be accurate, then the "customs inspections" would
> involve confiscating the ship and taking the crew as prisoners. That is not
> how a civilized society operates, that is piracy.
None of the folks who gave Voyager a hard time ever threatened
any such thing, unless Voyager broke their laws *after* entering
their territory with an agreement to abide by them!
Take the Devore, for instance. Janeway knew they didn't allow
telepaths. Her choice was not to go around, but to accept the
Devore rules and then deliberately break those laws and her
word. And we don't even know how long it would take to go
around Devore territory, all we got is "it's hard to avoid".
Weeks? Months? Years? They never said.
Graham Kennedy
Thanks. I did some checking - Janeway invaded Swarm territory
rather than take a 15 month detour. Less than 2% of their total
journey time.
Hmm - walk 1,000 feet, have peace. Walk 980 feet, cause a war.
Not a hard choice, for most people.
Graham Kennedy
Lol... I loved that episode. The main cast was obviously
having so MUCH fun playing their evil counterparts!
Tonka
> years.
> Was it established in the ep just how long it would add to the trip? ( No,
of
> course I don't remember. If I did, would I ask the question?)
Yeah right. They would have had to have owned 3/4 of the Quadrant. You
REALLY believe those numbers made sense? They just made them so impossibly
large to make us think they had no other choice. Now that's just goofy. 6
years my bumhole :-)
--
Evil Tonka MCP
Tonka
> years.
> Was it established in the ep just how long it would add to the trip? ( No,
of
> course I don't remember. If I did, would I ask the question?)
Yeah right. They would have had to have owned 3/4 of the Quadrant. You
REALLY believe those numbers made sense? They just made them so impossibly
large to make us think they had no other choice. Now that's just goofy. 6
years my bumhole :-)
--
Evil Tonka MCP
Tonka
> years.
> Was it established in the ep just how long it would add to the trip? ( No,
of
> course I don't remember. If I did, would I ask the question?)
Yeah right. They would have had to have owned 3/4 of the Quadrant. You
REALLY believe those numbers made sense? They just made them so impossibly
large to make us think they had no other choice. Now that's just goofy. 6
years my bumhole :-)
--
Evil Tonka MCP
Tonka
> years.
> Was it established in the ep just how long it would add to the trip? ( No,
of
> course I don't remember. If I did, would I ask the question?)
Yeah right. They would have had to have owned 3/4 of the Quadrant. You
REALLY believe those numbers made sense? They just made them so impossibly
large to make us think they had no other choice. Now that's just goofy. 6
years my bumhole :-)
--
Evil Tonka MCP
Tonka
> years.
> Was it established in the ep just how long it would add to the trip? ( No,
of
> course I don't remember. If I did, would I ask the question?)
Yeah right. They would have had to have owned 3/4 of the Quadrant. You
REALLY believe those numbers made sense? They just made them so impossibly
large to make us think they had no other choice. Now that's just goofy. 6
years my bumhole :-)
--
Evil Tonka MCP
Tonka
> years.
> Was it established in the ep just how long it would add to the trip? ( No,
of
> course I don't remember. If I did, would I ask the question?)
Yeah right. They would have had to have owned 3/4 of the Quadrant. You
REALLY believe those numbers made sense? They just made them so impossibly
large to make us think they had no other choice. Now that's just goofy. 6
years my bumhole :-)
--
Evil Tonka MCP
Tonka
> years.
> Was it established in the ep just how long it would add to the trip? ( No,
of
> course I don't remember. If I did, would I ask the question?)
Yeah right. They would have had to have owned 3/4 of the Quadrant. You
REALLY believe those numbers made sense? They just made them so impossibly
large to make us think they had no other choice. Now that's just goofy. 6
years my bumhole :-)
--
Evil Tonka MCP
Bob
Graham Kennedy wrote:
now, think of it as 15 months MORE out of your life.
Put yourself in that position.
By the way, I'm not saying she was right, just try to understand the logic.
Bob
Bob
Tonka wrote:
Hey, Tonka??? You only had to send this once. I promise, I would have read it.
You got so angry at me that you had to send it 6 times?
Bob
Graham Kennedy
>
>
> now, think of it as 15 months MORE out of your life.
> Put yourself in that position.
> By the way, I'm not saying she was right, just try to understand the logic.
Frankly, if I believed that I was going to spend the
next 70 years on a ship I wouldn't give a rat's ass
if it took a year or two out to divert around someone's
territory. Especially if the alternative is a good chance
of gerring dead in the next day or two.
Tonka
> rather than take a 15 month detour. Less than 2% of their total
> journey time.
Yeah right 15 months. They only made it soo big to make it sound like a
reasonable thing for them to break their own rules about honour other people
laws. Oh except he bad ones they don't like (taking a page from your book
:-) )
--
Evil Tonka MCP
Tonka
disk failures in the last week and multi sends appears to be one of the
problems. I have cancelled the extra messages but many news providers don't
honour message cancels . So I am afraid it's of my control.
--
Evil Tonka MCP
"Bob" <chil...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message