Addressing Invitation To A Widow?
Barb Schaller
In article <4u26tc$r...@news2.h1.usa.pipeline.com>,
cyb...@usa.pipeline.com wrote:
>One more wedding invite address question.
>
>How should we address a widow:
>
>1. Mrs. John Doe
>
>2. Mrs. Mary Doe
>
>3. Ms. Mary Doe
>
>
>Personally, I opt for #3. Caren, her Mom, and her sister all say no to #3,
>but are split between #1 and #2.
>
>Hre mother feels that for women in her age group (late 60s - early 70s), #1
>is the choice. Her sister (mid 40s) feels #1 or #2 are OK.
>
>Persionally, I never liked the Mrs. John Doe routine whether a woamn is
>married, widowed, or single. The woman has her own name, why not recognize
>that? C'mon, this isn't the 1800s anymore. Women have very complete and
>happy lives with having to find a man first. I like that. But I also
>realize that some older generations might not feel this way.
>
>Is there a "proper" (OUCH! I can't belive I'm giving in to a rule
>arbitrarily decided on by someone who has probably been dead for 50 years)
>etiquette for this? I know for my Mom, (a widow),we're using Mrs. Ruth
>Boroshok -- that's what she's always used, even when my Dad was alive.
>
>One more question: Sadly, there are a few VERY recent widows on our list.
>Any special way to handle these cases?
>
>Any advice?
>******************************************************************
>Jon Boroshok
Jon,
Summary: I'll vote with #1 and #3.
If you really want to get fussy (and I know you don't), we could chat
about her 'name' versus her 'title.' Boy, can these things get
complicated.
Your question:
Mrs. John Doe is still correct and may be preferred by the older
women---and it may not be preferred (there are some pretty forward seniors
out there, fella. '-)
The etiquette books used to say that Mrs. Mary Doe is what she used to
call herself after that bastard John dumped her for a younger woman.
(Humor attempt, here, kids; don't throw a hissyfit).
Ms. Mary Doe may take some getting used to -- sometimes, particularly if
you're over 50 or so, it's just hard to hear that Ms. with your first
name.
From what I've read of yours, your and Caren's soiree sounds like a formal
event; address the invites accordingly.
I can't imagine you'd get any flak from the very recent widows if you
invited them as Mrs. Hisname Lastname -- that possible consideration of a
different form of address takes a while to get to. And some never do.
I would tailor the address to the individual. Our groom's GM was invited
as Mrs. Hisname Lastname; my friend's (a 50-year old attorney) was sent to
Ms. Herfirstname Herlastname.
Things are in flux with names and titles; I prefer my mail to come without
that leading Mrs. or Ms.
Barb, MOB 8/31/96
Barb
8/4/96
"If you're ever in a jam, here I am."
Soon to be The Dreaded Mother-in-Law -- ACK!! Four weeks!
cyb...@usa.pipeline.com
One more wedding invite address question.
How should we address a widow:
1. Mrs. John Doe
2. Mrs. Mary Doe
3. Ms. Mary Doe
Personally, I opt for #3. Caren, her Mom, and her sister all say no to #3,
but are split between #1 and #2.
Hre mother feels that for women in her age group (late 60s - early 70s), #1
is the choice. Her sister (mid 40s) feels #1 or #2 are OK.
Persionally, I never liked the Mrs. John Doe routine whether a woamn is
married, widowed, or single. The woman has her own name, why not recognize
that? C'mon, this isn't the 1800s anymore. Women have very complete and
happy lives with having to find a man first. I like that. But I also
realize that some older generations might not feel this way.
Is there a "proper" (OUCH! I can't belive I'm giving in to a rule
arbitrarily decided on by someone who has probably been dead for 50 years)
etiquette for this? I know for my Mom, (a widow),we're using Mrs. Ruth
Boroshok -- that's what she's always used, even when my Dad was alive.
One more question: Sadly, there are a few VERY recent widows on our list.
Any special way to handle these cases?
Any advice?
******************************************************************
Jon Boroshok
http://pwp.usa.pipeline.com/~cyberpr/wedding.html (Jon's)
http://www.tripod.com/~CarenSF (Caren's)
Julie James
Barb Schaller (Schall...@htc.honeywell.com) wrote:
: In article <4u26tc$r...@news2.h1.usa.pipeline.com>,
: cyb...@usa.pipeline.com wrote:
: >One more wedding invite address question.
: >How should we address a widow:
: >1. Mrs. John Doe
: >2. Mrs. Mary Doe
: >3. Ms. Mary Doe
--snip--
: Your question:
: Mrs. John Doe is still correct and may be preferred by the older
: women---and it may not be preferred (there are some pretty forward seniors
: out there, fella. '-)
: The etiquette books used to say that Mrs. Mary Doe is what she used to
: call herself after that bastard John dumped her for a younger woman.
: (Humor attempt, here, kids; don't throw a hissyfit).
: Ms. Mary Doe may take some getting used to -- sometimes, particularly if
: you're over 50 or so, it's just hard to hear that Ms. with your first
: name.
I agree that no MS. for those over about 50 (and even some stodgy 30 and
40 year olds)... But many widows date and may have new significant other
(my 70+ year old grandma for instance), and therefore may not feel
totally comfortable with their former husband's name being on an
invitationto an event which their new "boyfriend" may be escorting
them... My grandma has been a widow for only a few years but she now has
an active social life and is "her own woman" despite her very
conservative attitude - her invite will read Mrs. Delores Moore...
julie
Janet Penelope Gunn
In <4u26tc$r...@news2.h1.usa.pipeline.com> cyb...@usa.pipeline.com
writes:
>One more wedding invite address question.
>
>How should we address a widow:
>
>1. Mrs. John Doe
>
>2. Mrs. Mary Doe
>
>3. Ms. Mary Doe
The POLITE thing to do is to address her the way SHE preferred. Is
there some way you can find out? Could you even call and ASK her?
Traditionally, Mrs. John Doe is a widow and Mrs. Jane Does is a
divorcee. Some people like Mrs. and some like Ms. Some hate one and
some hate the other.
If she is elderly and traditional, she is unlikely to object to Mrs.
John Doe, even if it isn't what she prefers. For younger, recent
widows, I really suggest you ask what they prefer.
>
>Persionally, I never liked the Mrs. John Doe routine whether a woamn
is
>married, widowed, or single.
But the issue here is really whether SHE likes it.
Janet Gunn
Suzanne Glass
> One more wedding invite address question.
>
> How should we address a widow:
>
> 1. Mrs. John Doe
>
> 2. Mrs. Mary Doe
>
> 3. Ms. Mary Doe
>
>
> Personally, I opt for #3. Caren, her Mom, and her sister all say no to #3,
> but are split between #1 and #2.
>
> Hre mother feels that for women in her age group (late 60s - early 70s), #1
> is the choice. Her sister (mid 40s) feels #1 or #2 are OK.
>
> Persionally, I never liked the Mrs. John Doe routine whether a woamn is
> married, widowed, or single. The woman has her own name, why not recognize
> that? C'mon, this isn't the 1800s anymore. Women have very complete and
> happy lives with having to find a man first. I like that. But I also
> realize that some older generations might not feel this way.
>
> Is there a "proper" (OUCH! I can't belive I'm giving in to a rule
> arbitrarily decided on by someone who has probably been dead for 50 years)
> etiquette for this? I know for my Mom, (a widow),we're using Mrs. Ruth
> Boroshok -- that's what she's always used, even when my Dad was alive.
>
I couldn't find anything about widows in my planning book. Sometimes in
the invitation catalogs they address the issue of which name to use. It's
usually in the middle of the catalog.
I myself would probably opt for #2 because it is a little more personal
using her first name, especially if you or your bride knew her personally.
(I'm not a super formal type person). I had a few such cases when I did
my invitations.
If you were inviting her because you knew her late husband I might opt
for #1, but then again, I probably wouldn't have thought to invite her.
I most likely wouldn't have used #3 because the instances it gives for
using Ms. in my planner is for married women who kept their maiden names
(not the case here).
Did this make any sense?
Suzie
--
Suzanne Glass
Santa Fe, NM
suz...@azstarnet.com
gl...@rt66.com
Melissa J. Rogerson
cyb...@usa.pipeline.com wrote:
>One more wedding invite address question.
>
>How should we address a widow:
>
>1. Mrs. John Doe
>
>2. Mrs. Mary Doe
>
>3. Ms. Mary Doe
>
widow but whose husband is extremely ill. I objected to her dictum that I
"had" to address the note to Mr and Mrs Bill Clark, as I found this
sexist. I wanted to address the note to Mrs Lily Clark, as Bill was
unlikely to attend anyway. Mum was horrified by this, as she felt that
would be _the appropriate way to address a widow_, and given the state of
Bill's health this would be tactless in the extreme! So we compromised on
Mr and Mrs Bill and Lily Clark.
So my mum's vote goes to #2 anyway!
All the best,
Melissa
(& Fraser - 9th November 1996)
Karen M Chan
In article <4u26tc$r...@news2.h1.usa.pipeline.com>,
cyb...@usa.pipeline.com wrote:
> One more wedding invite address question.
>
> How should we address a widow:
>
> 1. Mrs. John Doe
>
> 2. Mrs. Mary Doe
>
> 3. Ms. Mary Doe
What name does SHE go by, or how would she prefer to be addressed? She
probably has not reverted to her maiden name, so calling her Miss Mary
Smith would be inappropriate. I'd say either 1 or 2 would be correct, but
it would be best to ask, rather than err.
Y'know, I seem to recall being told that Miss was for single,
never-been-married women and Ms. was for divorced women (because they were
neither a Miss or Mrs.), but married women (widowed or not) would use Mrs.
Karen
--
Whatever Happens... Smile!
Lisa Hixson
>
>Y'know, I seem to recall being told that Miss was for single,
>never-been-married women and Ms. was for divorced women (because they
were
>neither a Miss or Mrs.), but married women (widowed or not) would use
Mrs.
>
I think Ms. is okay to use for any woman, and is especially useful if you
don't know if the woman is married or not (this doesn't really apply to
wedding invites, though -- presumably you'd know if your guests are
married or not), the same way Mr. is used for married and unmarried men.
Lisa
Debbie McCoy
RE: Addressing a widow's invitation...
When death separates spouses, remember that at the time, they were
married (unlike divorce). Therefore, a widow is addressed, for example,
as Mrs. John Smith.
You cannot refer to a man as Mrs.____ anything--unless the person is
involved in the feminine side of a gay marriage <g>. I would be extremely
embarrassed and insulted if I were a man and received an invitation
addressed to Mrs. Stan Davidson...for example.
P.S. No matter what the health of a spouse, be sure to invite both
parties. Can you imagine the emotional pain the ill person would suffer
knowing that he/she weren't invited? Put yourself in the other person's
shoes--always--before making any decision that could possibly cause them
hurt or embarrassment.
All the best,
Deb McCoy, Author, "For the Bride"
>
Mary Jane N. Shroyer
On 4 Aug 1996, Julie James wrote:
> 40 year olds)... But many widows date and may have new significant other
> (my 70+ year old grandma for instance), and therefore may not feel
> totally comfortable with their former husband's name being on an
> invitationto an event which their new "boyfriend" may be escorting
> them... My grandma has been a widow for only a few years but she now has
> an active social life and is "her own woman" despite her very
> conservative attitude - her invite will read Mrs. Delores Moore...
OTOH, there are some widows who do not, have not, and never will date. I
know of at least two, and they prefer to be addressed as "Mrs. John Doe"
(they are both in their 60's) because to them it signifies that they did
not choose to become single and they still consider themselves the wife of
their late husband.
I agree with another poster who suggested you try to find out how they
refer to be addressed.
MJ
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mary Jane N. Shroyer "Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual
Dept. of Microbiology power. We have guided missiles and misguided
Oregon State University men.
Corvallis, OR Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr.
nat...@ucs.orst.edu
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Janet Penelope Gunn
In <Karen.M.Chan-0...@kchanmac.jpl.nasa.gov>
Karen....@ccmail.jpl.nasa.gov (Karen M Chan) writes:
>
>Y'know, I seem to recall being told that Miss was for single,
>never-been-married women and Ms. was for divorced women (because they
were
>neither a Miss or Mrs.), but married women (widowed or not) would use
Mrs.
>
NOPE.
Before the invention of "Ms", a never-married woman was Miss, and a
married woman (whether still married, widowed, or divorced) was Mrs.
The term "Ms" was invented to have a title which gave NO INDICATION of
the woman's marital status.
Janet Gunn (whose political/feminist side prefers Ms, but whose
linguistic/etymological side insists on Miss/Mrs.)
A. Hannah
In article <Pine.OSF.3.91.96080...@ucs.orst.edu>, "Mary
Jane N. Shroyer" <nat...@ucs.orst.edu> wrote:
**OTOH, there are some widows who do not, have not, and never will date. I
**know of at least two, and they prefer to be addressed as "Mrs. John Doe"
**(they are both in their 60's) because to them it signifies that they did
**not choose to become single and they still consider themselves the wife of
**their late husband.
**
**I agree with another poster who suggested you try to find out how they
**refer to be addressed.
**
**MJ
Just a curious note, but in the vows at the wedding, don't you promise to
be married, "until death do us part"? Wouldn't that mean these women
technically AREN'T married to these men any longer? I'm not trying to be
insensitive here, just wondering why the "convention" is to keep the Mrs.
Man'sname Lastname, when obviously that man isn't around any longer?
We had two widows and they both prefer Mrs. Hername Lastname. THEY know
they aren't divorced, and who's reading their mail to find out anyway!?
I'm just questioning the convention anyway...I don't see how a divorcee
can possibly be Mrs. anything if that's supposed to signify "married to
someone"...doesn't make sense, does it?
Amy
--
Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read.
- Groucho Marx
Steve & Jacinda
My grandmothers who are both widows enjoy using their married names.
Lets face it one was married 35 years when my grandfather died and had
been using his last name for 35 years and just continued using it
since it was now her last name and my other grandmother had been
married 51 years when my grandfather died so she kept his lastname
also. Both women are well recognized in their communities with their
married last names. Both of my grandmothers go by Mrs. herfirstname
hislastname.
I would choose that option for any widow (unless she kept her last
name when she got married)
Jacinda
**********************************************************
"Pinky are you pondering what I'm pondering?" - The Brain
ser...@fastlane.net
The socially correct address for a widow is Mrs. John Franklin Smith. The
socially correct address for someone who is divorced is Mrs. Mary (Maiden
Name) (Married Name), for example, Mrs. Mary Smith Jones. This is
according to the Crane Wedding Book,.
Mary Jane N. Shroyer
On Tue, 6 Aug 1996, A. Hannah wrote:
> In article <Pine.OSF.3.91.96080...@ucs.orst.edu>, "Mary
> Jane N. Shroyer" <nat...@ucs.orst.edu> wrote:
>
> **OTOH, there are some widows who do not, have not, and never will date. I
> **know of at least two, and they prefer to be addressed as "Mrs. John Doe"
> **(they are both in their 60's) because to them it signifies that they did
> **not choose to become single and they still consider themselves the wife of
> **their late husband.
>
> Just a curious note, but in the vows at the wedding, don't you promise to
> be married, "until death do us part"? Wouldn't that mean these women
> technically AREN'T married to these men any longer? I'm not trying to be
> insensitive here, just wondering why the "convention" is to keep the Mrs.
> Man'sname Lastname, when obviously that man isn't around any longer?
Hey, *I* agree with you! But I know one woman who goes out of her way to
make sure companies, etc. address her as "Mrs. John Doe". Part of it is
due to the older convention of "Mrs. Mary Doe" signifying a divorcee--she
doesn't want to be lumped into that group, because they didn't elect to
end their marriage. Another part of it is honoring her husband. Also,
some people vow "all the days of my life" rather than "'til death do us
part".
With less stigma on divorce and more women wanting to be recognized as
individuals distinct from their husbands, it seems like more & more are
using Mrs. with their own names, regardless of their current marital
status. Perhaps we'll be the last generation to deal with this issue?
Personally, I find the whole "Mrs" thing rather ridiculous--it's all a
plot to find out if a woman is eligible, taken or "damaged goods" ;P. As
a society, we never designate a man's marital status so why are we so
obsessed with a woman's?
MJ (who will be checking the "Ms" box on forms until her dying day ;)
M. Nichols
I also agree that you you find out how they want to be addressed...
but just a note: I'm a widow (a newly engaged one ;)) but I would want
the invitation addressed as either:
Ms. Mari Nichols (my first name and married name) or
Mrs. Mari Nichols
I know this may scream in the face of convention...but having my late
husband's first name on the invitation seems pointless. Then again,
even when he was alive I didn't prefer to be addressed as Mrs. Ron
Nichols. I was still me...and didn't lose my first name in the
marriage.
Okay, just my thoughts.
Mari
------------
"My life has a superb cast but | "I would rather live and love
I can't figure out the plot." | where death is king
Ashleigh Brilliant | than have eternal life
cancel that..I've figured it out!| where love is not"
http://www.cet.com/~nichols/ | --Robert G. Ingersoll--
HollyLewis
>Heidiaaron <heidi...@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>>Oh, and does anyone think it's rude to ask your attendents to pay for
the
>>airfare to your wedding, if they can afford it - while telling them that
>>if cost is an issue, you'd be thrilled to cover it just so they can come
>>and stand & sit by your side at your wedding?
I've always understood that you are responsible for offering accomodations
for your attendants (i.e., your brother's guest room, or paying their
hotel bill), but travel costs as well as their clothes are their
responsibility. (I have no idea why. But that's what I believe the rule
is.) We told our out-of-town attendants that we would be able to provide
places for them all to stay with friends or relatives, and would be happy
to arrange that if they just told us when they'd be arriving and leaving.
If they wanted to stay at a hotel instead it was up to them to pay for it.
We never offered to pay anyone's travel costs, and no one seemed to
expect it.
Holly (& Ken)
8/25/96
SUE
>
>Things are in flux with names and titles; I prefer my mail to come without
>that leading Mrs. or Ms.
>
>Barb, MOB 8/31/96
>
>Barb
>8/4/96
>"If you're ever in a jam, here I am."
>Soon to be The Dreaded Mother-in-Law -- ACK!! Four weeks!
Or, Sir John and Lady Jane Doe,
and for their children Master Shawn, Miss Sarah
;)
modern titles are best left off, too much confusion!! whats the big deal
anyway! Class distinction, marital distinction, doesn't it all lead to
prejudice anyway? why do we have the obsessive need to know if a woman is
married or titled or not?
SUE
In article <4u26tc$r...@news2.h1.usa.pipeline.com>, cyb...@usa.pipeline.com writes:
>One more wedding invite address question.
>
>How should we address a widow:
>
>1. Mrs. John Doe
>
>2. Mrs. Mary Doe
>
>3. Ms. Mary Doe
>
>
>but are split between #1 and #2.
>
>Hre mother feels that for women in her age group (late 60s - early 70s), #1
>is the choice. Her sister (mid 40s) feels #1 or #2 are OK.
>
>Persionally, I never liked the Mrs. John Doe routine whether a woamn is
>married, widowed, or single. The woman has her own name, why not recognize
>that? C'mon, this isn't the 1800s anymore. Women have very complete and
>happy lives with having to find a man first. I like that. But I also
>realize that some older generations might not feel this way.
>
>Is there a "proper" (OUCH! I can't belive I'm giving in to a rule
>arbitrarily decided on by someone who has probably been dead for 50 years)
>etiquette for this? I know for my Mom, (a widow),we're using Mrs. Ruth
>Boroshok -- that's what she's always used, even when my Dad was alive.
>
>Any special way to handle these cases?
>
>Any advice?
>******************************************************************
>Jon Boroshok
>
>Visit our wedding pages:
>
>http://pwp.usa.pipeline.com/~cyberpr/wedding.html (Jon's)
>
>http://www.tripod.com/~CarenSF (Caren's)
I used Mrs. Jane Dow because it does both, acknoledges their husband with
the Mrs. Dow, but also gives them an identity of their own with Jane.
Elizabeth M. Davis
Hear Hear!! Sums up my (intended) response perfectly!
Lisa
jg...@ix.netcom.com(Janet Penelope Gunn ) wrote:
>In <4u26tc$r...@news2.h1.usa.pipeline.com> cyb...@usa.pipeline.com
>writes:
>>
>>One more wedding invite address question.
>>
>>How should we address a widow:
>>
>>1. Mrs. John Doe
>>
>>2. Mrs. Mary Doe
>>
>>3. Ms. Mary Doe
>The POLITE thing to do is to address her the way SHE preferred. Is
>there some way you can find out? Could you even call and ASK her?
>Traditionally, Mrs. John Doe is a widow and Mrs. Jane Does is a
>divorcee. Some people like Mrs. and some like Ms. Some hate one and
>some hate the other.
>If she is elderly and traditional, she is unlikely to object to Mrs.
>John Doe, even if it isn't what she prefers. For younger, recent
>widows, I really suggest you ask what they prefer.
>
>>
>>Persionally, I never liked the Mrs. John Doe routine whether a woamn
>is
>>married, widowed, or single.
>But the issue here is really whether SHE likes it.
>Janet Gunn