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Re: a Quora - WWII “Marianas Turkey Shoot” air encounter
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Jim Wilkins
Dec 5, 2023, 1:34:11 PM12/5/23
to
"a425couple" wrote in message news:HgJbN.77269$%p%e.2...@fx43.iad...
At the same time, The much-ballyhooed Zero had become obsolete, and by
1944, American pilots had been thoroughly trained in its weaknesses and
the tactics to defeat it. At the same time, American forces had fully
deployed the F6F Hellcat, a vast improvement over its predecessor, the
F4F Wildcat.
------------------------------
I have Zero chief designer Jiro Horikoshi's book on the subject. Japan's
Army and Navy were arch rivals who could barely be forced to cooperate
occasionally. The Army developed better planes that nearly kept up with our
best though they had serious manufacturing problems.
https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/threads/p-51d-vs-nakajima-ki-84-frank.15295/
The Zero's planned replacement was stalled by an unreliable larger engine
with vibration problems they couldn't solve, he claims partly because they
lacked skilled test technicians. Germany also drafted too many technically
skilled personnel to support later developments. We suffered from vibration
damage in high powered aero engines too, luckily we had a Russian
engineering genius named Timoshenko who mastered them.
https://www.amazon.com/Theory-Elasticity-Timoshenko/dp/0070701229
Another hard limit to Japanese naval aircraft weight/power was lack of a
catapult.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_aircraft_carrier_Taih%C5%8D
"Taihō's original design specified installation of two catapults on her
forward bow for power-assisted take-offs. However, as the Imperial Japanese
Navy had not developed a workable catapult for carrier decks by the time of
Taihō's construction, these were eventually deleted from the requirements."
Thus although Army planes kept improving the Navy was limited to slightly
enhanced versions of the old Zero. Cooperation was so poor that the Army
declined the Navy's request to provide air cover over the superbattleship
Musashi and US planes sank it without opposition.
At the same time, The much-ballyhooed Zero had become obsolete, and by
1944, American pilots had been thoroughly trained in its weaknesses and
the tactics to defeat it. At the same time, American forces had fully
deployed the F6F Hellcat, a vast improvement over its predecessor, the
F4F Wildcat.
------------------------------
I have Zero chief designer Jiro Horikoshi's book on the subject. Japan's
Army and Navy were arch rivals who could barely be forced to cooperate
occasionally. The Army developed better planes that nearly kept up with our
best though they had serious manufacturing problems.
https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/threads/p-51d-vs-nakajima-ki-84-frank.15295/
The Zero's planned replacement was stalled by an unreliable larger engine
with vibration problems they couldn't solve, he claims partly because they
lacked skilled test technicians. Germany also drafted too many technically
skilled personnel to support later developments. We suffered from vibration
damage in high powered aero engines too, luckily we had a Russian
engineering genius named Timoshenko who mastered them.
https://www.amazon.com/Theory-Elasticity-Timoshenko/dp/0070701229
Another hard limit to Japanese naval aircraft weight/power was lack of a
catapult.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_aircraft_carrier_Taih%C5%8D
"Taihō's original design specified installation of two catapults on her
forward bow for power-assisted take-offs. However, as the Imperial Japanese
Navy had not developed a workable catapult for carrier decks by the time of
Taihō's construction, these were eventually deleted from the requirements."
Thus although Army planes kept improving the Navy was limited to slightly
enhanced versions of the old Zero. Cooperation was so poor that the Army
declined the Navy's request to provide air cover over the superbattleship
Musashi and US planes sank it without opposition.
Jim Wilkins
Dec 6, 2023, 10:10:01 AM12/6/23
to
"a425couple" wrote in message news:wkJbN.77270$%p%e.2...@fx43.iad...
Byron Arnason
· Fri
Nice article but a significant error, the new fuses did NOT employ RADAR
which is an ElectroMagnetic WAVE phenomenon. Those marvelous fuses
relied on a simpler, more rugged and more elementary MAGNETIC INDUCTIVE
COUPLING methodology.
The fuse would cause electrical currents to flow in the aluminum skin of
the foe and the magnetic field caused by those currents would activate
the fuse. Marvels of Vacuum Tube technology.
NOT RADAR !
Nearly as marvelous were the new “saturated magnetics” magnetometers
which made sub hunting much easier. An unintended result of those new
magnetometer surveys was the analysis of SEA FLOOR SPREADING and BINGO!
PLATE TECTONICS.
MAGNETRONS, RADAR, PENICILLIN, Saturated Magnetometers. These are all
resulting blessings of deadly WAR.
Profile photo for John Boudrea
John Boudrea
· Sat
True that.
I only wish I could photograph the cool display about the Fuse that I
walk past were I work, where it was developed (JHUAPL). Taking photos is
prohibited on campus
Duncan McDougall
· Sun
Wondering about that one … According to Wikipedia:
“… Radio frequency sensing (radar) is the main sensing principle for
artillery shells.
The device described in World War II patent[63] works as follows: The
shell contains a micro-transmitter which uses the shell body as an
antenna and emits a continuous wave of roughly 180–220 MHz. As the shell
approaches a reflecting object, an interference pattern is created …”
Also, this might lead to a few issues with such aircraft as the RAF
Hurricane and Mosquito, or the Italian SM79 Sparviero, which were mainly
wooden construction so would not generate electrical currents.
Profile photo for Byron Arnason
Byron Arnason
· Sun
Yes, note that the Patent states that the transmitter emits a
“continuous” signal. RADAR does NOT emit a “continuous” signal. RADAR
emits very short high energy PULSES and records the two-way travel TIME
for the reflected pulse to return to the shell.
One of the biggest challenges of that development was that the xmitting
antenna was ALSO the receiving antenna AT THE SAME TIME! It was truly
amazing that they could make those FUSES work using vacuum tube
technology, old carbon style batteries, with the shell spinning and
speeding at thousands of feet per second.
That development was NOT the result of sloppy contaminated laboratory
work as in the case of Fleming's dirty petri dish. The best Electrical
Engineering minds were focused on that FUSE development.
It was so futuristic and innovative that, even when the Japanese and
NAZIs discovered the FUSES, they thought it was an Allied Hoax.
--------------------------------------
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proximity_fuze
https://hackaday.com/2023/06/09/retrotechtacular-a-closer-look-at-the-vt-proximity-fuze/
Yes Radar, it doesn't have to be pulsed to give useful data and Arnold
Wilkins' first British radar demonstration wasn't though Taylor and Young
pulsed their (earlier) US version. Properly equipped radio experimenters in
many nations independently and secretly developed radar in 1935-36. The VT's
radar was similar to police speed radar that transmits a continuous wave
(CW) and detects the reflection from a moving target using its Doppler
shift, which produces a low beat frequency output that is filtered to
separate it from the strong signal at the transmit frequency. The amplitude
increases as it nears the target and in the VT when strong enough triggered
the explosion.
https://www.britannica.com/science/Doppler-effect
Multiple tones only mix to produce their sum and difference frequencies in a
non-linear device like a diode where the amplitude of one affects the
amplitude of others. Musical notes remain independent in the air and your
ear. The explanation requires applying algebra to trigonometry. Each tone is
represented by its peak amplitude times the sine function (in Radians) at
its frequency.
I built a CW radar from a Gunn diode oscillator with a 1N23 diode detector
in the same 10GHz resonant cavity, and a soldered brass horn antenna to aim
it. The detector output was DC from the detected oscillations plus sum &
difference frequency as the oscillator frequency mixed with Doppler-effect
frequency shifted reflections off nearby moving objects like waving my hand
or tennis balls. An AC-coupled op amp amplified only the low audio frequency
to a speaker, so the pitch of the sound indicated the speed of detected
objects. The target does NOT have to be metal, it detected the moving legs
of people near my lab as a very low frequency buzz-buzz-buzz.
Driving with it produced a weird cacophony of descending notes as the
relative motion of roadside objects changed from toward to past me. Bridge
beams made BoiOiOiOing.
Notice that VT could detect ocean waves, or the ground which made it
tempting for low level air bursts against infantry and artillery without the
uncertainty of timed fuses, though any recovered duds would have revealed
its secret to the Germans so land use wasn't permitted. They did observe it
easily downing V-1 missiles at Dover and wondered how British AA could be so
accurate.
Other proximity fuse attempts employed only the inductive or capacitive
"near field" instead of radio, which is a balanced combination of both. The
Germans experimented with capacitive detection for their failed VT fuse
attempt, somewhat like a Theremin.
>
Byron Arnason
· Fri
Nice article but a significant error, the new fuses did NOT employ RADAR
which is an ElectroMagnetic WAVE phenomenon. Those marvelous fuses
relied on a simpler, more rugged and more elementary MAGNETIC INDUCTIVE
COUPLING methodology.
The fuse would cause electrical currents to flow in the aluminum skin of
the foe and the magnetic field caused by those currents would activate
the fuse. Marvels of Vacuum Tube technology.
NOT RADAR !
Nearly as marvelous were the new “saturated magnetics” magnetometers
which made sub hunting much easier. An unintended result of those new
magnetometer surveys was the analysis of SEA FLOOR SPREADING and BINGO!
PLATE TECTONICS.
MAGNETRONS, RADAR, PENICILLIN, Saturated Magnetometers. These are all
resulting blessings of deadly WAR.
Profile photo for John Boudrea
John Boudrea
· Sat
True that.
I only wish I could photograph the cool display about the Fuse that I
walk past were I work, where it was developed (JHUAPL). Taking photos is
prohibited on campus
Duncan McDougall
· Sun
Wondering about that one … According to Wikipedia:
“… Radio frequency sensing (radar) is the main sensing principle for
artillery shells.
The device described in World War II patent[63] works as follows: The
shell contains a micro-transmitter which uses the shell body as an
antenna and emits a continuous wave of roughly 180–220 MHz. As the shell
approaches a reflecting object, an interference pattern is created …”
Also, this might lead to a few issues with such aircraft as the RAF
Hurricane and Mosquito, or the Italian SM79 Sparviero, which were mainly
wooden construction so would not generate electrical currents.
Profile photo for Byron Arnason
Byron Arnason
· Sun
Yes, note that the Patent states that the transmitter emits a
“continuous” signal. RADAR does NOT emit a “continuous” signal. RADAR
emits very short high energy PULSES and records the two-way travel TIME
for the reflected pulse to return to the shell.
One of the biggest challenges of that development was that the xmitting
antenna was ALSO the receiving antenna AT THE SAME TIME! It was truly
amazing that they could make those FUSES work using vacuum tube
technology, old carbon style batteries, with the shell spinning and
speeding at thousands of feet per second.
That development was NOT the result of sloppy contaminated laboratory
work as in the case of Fleming's dirty petri dish. The best Electrical
Engineering minds were focused on that FUSE development.
It was so futuristic and innovative that, even when the Japanese and
NAZIs discovered the FUSES, they thought it was an Allied Hoax.
--------------------------------------
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proximity_fuze
https://hackaday.com/2023/06/09/retrotechtacular-a-closer-look-at-the-vt-proximity-fuze/
Yes Radar, it doesn't have to be pulsed to give useful data and Arnold
Wilkins' first British radar demonstration wasn't though Taylor and Young
pulsed their (earlier) US version. Properly equipped radio experimenters in
many nations independently and secretly developed radar in 1935-36. The VT's
radar was similar to police speed radar that transmits a continuous wave
(CW) and detects the reflection from a moving target using its Doppler
shift, which produces a low beat frequency output that is filtered to
separate it from the strong signal at the transmit frequency. The amplitude
increases as it nears the target and in the VT when strong enough triggered
the explosion.
https://www.britannica.com/science/Doppler-effect
Multiple tones only mix to produce their sum and difference frequencies in a
non-linear device like a diode where the amplitude of one affects the
amplitude of others. Musical notes remain independent in the air and your
ear. The explanation requires applying algebra to trigonometry. Each tone is
represented by its peak amplitude times the sine function (in Radians) at
its frequency.
I built a CW radar from a Gunn diode oscillator with a 1N23 diode detector
in the same 10GHz resonant cavity, and a soldered brass horn antenna to aim
it. The detector output was DC from the detected oscillations plus sum &
difference frequency as the oscillator frequency mixed with Doppler-effect
frequency shifted reflections off nearby moving objects like waving my hand
or tennis balls. An AC-coupled op amp amplified only the low audio frequency
to a speaker, so the pitch of the sound indicated the speed of detected
objects. The target does NOT have to be metal, it detected the moving legs
of people near my lab as a very low frequency buzz-buzz-buzz.
Driving with it produced a weird cacophony of descending notes as the
relative motion of roadside objects changed from toward to past me. Bridge
beams made BoiOiOiOing.
Notice that VT could detect ocean waves, or the ground which made it
tempting for low level air bursts against infantry and artillery without the
uncertainty of timed fuses, though any recovered duds would have revealed
its secret to the Germans so land use wasn't permitted. They did observe it
easily downing V-1 missiles at Dover and wondered how British AA could be so
accurate.
Other proximity fuse attempts employed only the inductive or capacitive
"near field" instead of radio, which is a balanced combination of both. The
Germans experimented with capacitive detection for their failed VT fuse
attempt, somewhat like a Theremin.
>
Jim Wilkins
Dec 6, 2023, 12:42:48 PM12/6/23
to
"a425couple" wrote in message news:wkJbN.77270$%p%e.2...@fx43.iad...
Nearly as marvelous were the new “saturated magnetics” magnetometers
which made sub hunting much easier. An unintended result of those new
magnetometer surveys was the analysis of SEA FLOOR SPREADING and BINGO!
PLATE TECTONICS.
------------------
which made sub hunting much easier. An unintended result of those new
magnetometer surveys was the analysis of SEA FLOOR SPREADING and BINGO!
PLATE TECTONICS.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Wegener
After his death the Nazis trumpeted his continental drift and other theories
to such an extent that they became untouchable, until an untainted grad
student rediscovered them.
a425couple
Dec 6, 2023, 1:04:08 PM12/6/23
to
On 12/5/23 10:33, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> "a425couple" wrote in message news:HgJbN.77269$%p%e.2...@fx43.iad...
>
> At the same time, The much-ballyhooed Zero had become obsolete, and by
> 1944, American pilots had been thoroughly trained in its weaknesses and
> the tactics to defeat it. At the same time, American forces had fully
> deployed the F6F Hellcat, a vast improvement over its predecessor, the
> F4F Wildcat.
>
> ------------------------------
>
>snip good stuff.
> "a425couple" wrote in message news:HgJbN.77269$%p%e.2...@fx43.iad...
>
> At the same time, The much-ballyhooed Zero had become obsolete, and by
> 1944, American pilots had been thoroughly trained in its weaknesses and
> the tactics to defeat it. At the same time, American forces had fully
> deployed the F6F Hellcat, a vast improvement over its predecessor, the
> F4F Wildcat.
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
> Thus although Army planes kept improving the Navy was limited to
> slightly enhanced versions of the old Zero. Cooperation was so poor that
> the Army declined the Navy's request to provide air cover over the
> superbattleship Musashi and US planes sank it without opposition.
>
Hmmm. Wonder why the common trend?
> Thus although Army planes kept improving the Navy was limited to
> slightly enhanced versions of the old Zero. Cooperation was so poor that
> the Army declined the Navy's request to provide air cover over the
> superbattleship Musashi and US planes sank it without opposition.
>
This is reminiscent to me of the situation with the
German Battleship Tirpitz. It was in a fjord in Norway,
(actually settled on a squishy bottom)
and for at least one of the many UK airplane raids
to 'put her down', the German Luftwaffe fighter planes
seemed to be unreasonably slow to try to protect.
Jim Wilkins
Dec 6, 2023, 6:31:45 PM12/6/23
to
"a425couple" wrote in message news:pI2cN.73471$yAie....@fx44.iad...
This is a good source on the battle off Samar, better than Admiral Kurita's.
https://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/1953/february/kurita-battle-leyte-gulf
The message from Toyoda appears to have been a demand that Kurita reverse
his retreat after losing Musashi.
IIRC the Army claimed their planes were fully occupied with opposing the
landing, justifiably perhaps because they failed. We wasted no time
bulldozing out airstrips for the fighters that defended it. The US carriers
that were attacked were one of a group of three, totaling 16 smaller
carriers, also providing air support for the landing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marston_Mat
"A runway 200 feet (61 m) wide and 5,000 feet (1,500 m) long could be
created within two days by a small team of engineers."
>
> Thus although Army planes kept improving the Navy was limited to slightly
> enhanced versions of the old Zero. Cooperation was so poor that the Army
> declined the Navy's request to provide air cover over the superbattleship
> Musashi and US planes sank it without opposition.
>
Hmmm. Wonder why the common trend?
----------------------------
> Thus although Army planes kept improving the Navy was limited to slightly
> enhanced versions of the old Zero. Cooperation was so poor that the Army
> declined the Navy's request to provide air cover over the superbattleship
> Musashi and US planes sank it without opposition.
>
Hmmm. Wonder why the common trend?
This is a good source on the battle off Samar, better than Admiral Kurita's.
https://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/1953/february/kurita-battle-leyte-gulf
The message from Toyoda appears to have been a demand that Kurita reverse
his retreat after losing Musashi.
IIRC the Army claimed their planes were fully occupied with opposing the
landing, justifiably perhaps because they failed. We wasted no time
bulldozing out airstrips for the fighters that defended it. The US carriers
that were attacked were one of a group of three, totaling 16 smaller
carriers, also providing air support for the landing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marston_Mat
"A runway 200 feet (61 m) wide and 5,000 feet (1,500 m) long could be
created within two days by a small team of engineers."
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