POW/MIA Secret Return Testimony
Edward Combs Jr.
...................
JKauff2017 <jkauf...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19990501200216...@ng138.aol.com...
> http://www.aiipowmia.com/hndrx1.html
Joe Schlatter
testified before the SSC as to his meeting with one Mary Jo Pullen-Hughes.
Ms. Pullen-Hughes told the editor that her former husband had been involved
in a secret program to return US POWs to the States and give them secret
identities.
What is left out of this testimony is the FACT that her husband denied to
SSC investigators that he was ever involved in such a program, he stated
that he had not a clue as to what she was talking about, and he further
described his ex-wife in very profane and uncomplimentary terms. Seems that
she was still trying to get some sort of support from him after he had been
granted a divorce on the grounds of several counts of adultery. Apparently,
she had a different boy friend every time he went on a deployment and even
had a few while he was at home.
Ms. Pullen-Hughes visited our office in Washington on one occasion. She had
been calling for about a week, claiming to have valuable information. She
met briefly in the office with our General Counsel and one analyst where she
told the same tale that her husband had denied time and again. We thanked
her and sent her on her way. Two days later, she was down at the T-shirt
bazaar on the Mall saying that she was pregnant by our General Counsel.
Not exactly a stable flying platform.
One of the everlasting myths of the MIA issue is that of the "secret
returnees." The claim is that a number of POWs have been freed over the
years, returned to the US, and put into a secret program, sort of like the
witness protection program. Of course, no one has ever explained how it is
that not a one of these guys has ever given in to the urge to contact his
family or how it is that not a single family has ever revealed that their
missing man is alive and living in Tucson under an assumed name. But, then,
if you are still waiting for the passengers off KAL 007 to return from
captivity on a small island in the Sakhalin chain, then you'll believe any
damn thing.
--
Regards,
Joe Schlatter
j...@schlatter.org
http://www.schlatter.org/
http://www.miafacts.org/
Amateur Radio Extra Class call sign W4HH
JKauff2017 wrote in message
nothing of value snipped
WarLib'yUK
Vietnam GI's who contracted incurable VD were sent to, never to return to
the USA. Are these possibly also included in the MIA lists?
Nigel Brooks
JKauff2017 wrote:
>
> http://www.aiipowmia.com/hndrx1.html
Joe Schlatter
After sitting on this secret for many years, I guess it's time that I come
clean with one and all. Now, you must understand that there are powerful
people out there who do not want me to reveal what I am about to tell you,
so, if, while you read this post, you should experience a sud>>>TRANSFER
INTERRUPTED. YOUR INTERNET CONNECTION WAS UNEXPECTEDLY TERMINATED.
--
Regards,
Joe Schlatter
j...@schlatter.org
http://www.schlatter.org/
http://www.miafacts.org/
Amateur Radio Extra Class call sign W4HH
WarLib'yUK wrote in message <372BAF60...@msn.com>...
Misterfixit
The special base to which the secret returnees were relocated is
located on the northern tip of the island of Saipan. This base has
been kept a top secret from the American public since 1947 when the
newly formed CIA claimed a large Imperial Japanese Army facility. The
facility included a concealed submarine entrance and a modified
aircraft carrier catapult located inside a ridge line for landing
light observation planes when a camouflage net was draw up. The base
later served as a training site for foreign agents and para military
forces being air dropped into the People's Republic of China (see
reports of Mr. Fecteau and Mr. Downey, CIA C-47 pilots who were shot
down over PRC and were later repatriated during the Nixon
Administration). The facility is still there and is still in use by
the US military, Soviet Army Spetznaz teams and the Republic of
Vanatu's Offshore Banking Security Detachment.
Now for the fantasy: because the base has been such a "closely" held
secret, just as is Camp Perry, VA near Williamsburg, and the various
CIA sites near Vint Hill Farms, VA, every conspiracy theorist in the
US has their favorite "missing person" located there. There have been
many lines published about all of these facilities in the past. The
only real secret about them is how many taxpayer dollars it requires
to keep them secret -- a typical US Government oxymoronic purpose.
The only really neat secret about the Saipan base is the beach located
about 3 miles north east of the main administration building where you
can sun bathe naked as a jaybird and where there are conch shells the
size of cannon balls. The surviving space alien triad, Alpha, Beta
and Delta, loved the beach there and mated many times under the
benevolent and interested eyes of their US Air Force custodians from
Dayton and DIA interpreters from Room 5A1070 in the Pentagon. Delta
said through his DIA interpreter that the "Beach Sand was just like
the Home Hive Walls" (sic). It was only when they mistook a partially
opened coconut for the Special Bodily Essence Recuperation Chamber
that they were gravely injured and eventually expired from a malady
which CIA Exobiologists explained was similar to an affliction in the
American Soldier know as D.S.B. or Dreaded Sperm Buildup, only in
reverse. In the case of our beloved former President, JFK, the
facility was really the only possible answer for him after the
terrible head wound which reduced him to a vegetative state but
afflicted with a permanent erection. Ms Monroe and Ms Exner both
attempted to reduce the tumescence but, unfortunately, could not.
At the time, a spokesman for the US Army Institute for Pathology
remarked to a secret DIA group that by placing him in the facility, on
the beach and fixing a partially opened coconut over the engorged
member, publicity photographs could be discreetly taken and sent to
the National Inquirer so as to gently ease him back into US society
after a few years had passed and a new cause 'celebe was taken up by
the masses. This operation was defunded by President Johnson shortly
after it commenced. The Elvis difficulty was, as you may already be
aware, caused by the base post exchange running out of Twinkies and RC
Colas at a critical, crisis moment in the life of The King. DIA
technical experts attempted to manufacture a Twinkie-like substance
from partially macerated coconuts, but were, tragically,
unsuccessful. Refrigeration failed on the secret DIA flight back to
Memphis by way of Bolling Air Force Base, and caused the greatly
enlarged corpse to require shoehorning into the Graceland "King
Kommode" where He was "discovered".
Part II will continue tomorrow evening.
Joe Schlatter
center and refill your prescription?
--
Regards,
Joe Schlatter
j...@schlatter.org
http://www.schlatter.org/
http://www.miafacts.org/
Amateur Radio Extra Class call sign W4HH
Misterfixit wrote in message <7gghdv$e...@journal.concentric.net>...
JKauff2017
JKauff2017
> <edwc...@ix.netcom.com>
>
> Great URL...many hours of reading. Thank
> you.
Glad you've checked it out and think those many hours of reading will be
enjoyable and informative. (Although some may make you madder than hell.)
The archives were put together by Andi Wolos for Advocacy and Intelligence
Index For Prisoners Of War/Missing In Action. Bob Necci's organization.
JKauff2017
Or Misterfixit could take a little respite down on Palmyra and visit the old,
defunct Navy base. The isolated atoll could do wonders in getting rid of all
those cobwebs.
DT1942
I love it!! ROTFLMAOAPIMP
Dave Travis
Herb F.
only as "Number One." Each of the returnees is forced to answer to a
number.
There have been numerous cases of attempted escapes, but the prisoners
are chased by a large animated balloon that knocks them down and
suffocates them.
On the bright side, the climate is good, food and clothing is provided,
and concerts are provided daily.
Mokieman
rolling around laughing.
Misterfixit <miste...@loveable.com> wrote in message
news:7gghdv$e...@journal.concentric.net...
Misterfixit
things they gave me for my hemorrhoids are really tough to take ... I mean
how is heck is a fellow supposed to swallow a big old pill like that with
that aluminum foil over it? When I got the aluminum foil all tooken off
well hell's fire, the danged thing just squirted out my hand like a greased
pig at a Klu Kluxer's meeting and plumb got away from me. And taste!
Oooooweeeee Bob, them things just plain are nasty. And you know what?
didn't help them hemmoroids a darned bit at all. I am writing a letter to
my congressman right now, but don't expect it will do much good unless I put
a $10.00 bill in the envelope like Daddy used to do when they was a-building
the TVA.
I'll let ya know what;s what from Music City most ricky-tick later.
Mann
Joe Schlatter wrote in message ...
>Now, now, Mr. Fixit. Is it not time for you to get yourself over to the VA
>center and refill your prescription?
>
>--
>Regards,
>Joe Schlatter
>j...@schlatter.org
>http://www.schlatter.org/
>http://www.miafacts.org/
>Amateur Radio Extra Class call sign W4HH
>Misterfixit wrote in message <7gghdv$e...@journal.concentric.net>...
Misterfixit
the postcards to prove it.
See my next post.
Cheers
Mann
JKauff2017 wrote in message <19990502001823...@ng139.aol.com>...
Misterfixit
I am Not a Number!
Mann
Herb F. wrote in message <22927-37...@newsd-121.bryant.webtv.net>...
Misterfixit
In a previous life, Mister was a prolific writer and voice impressionist.
Mann
Mokieman wrote in message <7gi7c4$l9u$1...@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net>...
>Misterfixit, You are sick, sick sick sick, makes me proud, loved it, Still
>rolling around laughing.
>
>
>Misterfixit <miste...@loveable.com> wrote in message
>news:7gghdv$e...@journal.concentric.net...
Ted Gittinger
Misterfixit wrote in message <7giumg$4...@chronicle.concentric.net>...
>So, who is the New Number Two?
>
>I am Not a Number!
>
>Mann
>
YOU. . . .
are number Six.
Number Two.
Misterfixit
me this, Rumplestilken, pray tell who then is Number One!?!
(A devoted fan of large rolling rubber balls along the beach ...)
Mann
Ted Gittinger wrote in message <7gljbt$pa1$1...@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>...
Ken Burington
gru...@hotmail.com wrote in message <7glkdg$4el$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>
Well, that sure didn't take long.
Ken Burington
CWL #79
Herb F.
>gru...@hotmail.com said...
>Jimi may get angry at me for writing this,
>but I can tell you for absolute certainty
>that she has proof that at least one POW
>has returned secretly.
Same old bullshit. It is a secret. I would like to tell you but I can't.
Let me tell you something Dino. If one of those wackos had a returned
POW they would be standing on the roof screaming about it. It would
validate all the crap they have been preaching for years.
>While checking out the Tailwind story, I
>accidently uncovered some other
>information, which I will never reveal.
More of the same silly bullshit. It is a secret. I would like to tell
you but I can't.
Why not? Are the men in the black helicopters going to come and get you?
This silly nonsense about all the secrets you have discovered is boring
and repitious. You can barely find your ass at twelve noon on main
street. What makes you think that you can find things that other trained
investigators cannot? Oh I forgot. They are in on it. It is a secret.
If you have a name or a place, bring it forward into daylight so we can
all see it. If you want to pretend that you have some knowledge hidden
to the rest of us, go in a corner and play "G-man." Nobody here is
buying any of it.
By the way, I am not holding any of this against you. I don't think you
can help yourself.
Edward Combs Jr.
.....................news:7gllkd$e...@chronicle.concentric.net...
gru...@hotmail.com
he is not any that she has written about. This POW is still listed as dead
but was alive in the USA just a few years ago and probably still is. Mock
and make fun all you want, but it is the truth.
I have written on this ng about 8 months ago that if you really want to know
the truth, search for it. You will never find it on this ng.
While checking out the Tailwind story, I accidently uncovered some other
information, which I will never reveal. Some of you out there know what I am
writing about - most of you won't. I really don't give a shit whether you do
or not.
dino
In article <22927-37...@newsd-121.bryant.webtv.net>,
Be...@webtv.net (Herb F.) wrote:
> As I recall, the secret Island is ruled by a mysterious individual known
> only as "Number One." Each of the returnees is forced to answer to a
> number.
>
> There have been numerous cases of attempted escapes, but the prisoners
> are chased by a large animated balloon that knocks them down and
> suffocates them.
>
> On the bright side, the climate is good, food and clothing is provided,
> and concerts are provided daily.
>
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Joe Schlatter
gru...@hotmail.com wrote in message <7glkdg$4el$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>Jimi may get angry at me for writing this, but I can tell you for absolute
>certainty that she has proof that at least one POW has returned secretly,
and
>he is not any that she has written about. This POW is still listed as dead
>but was alive in the USA just a few years ago and probably still is. Mock
>and make fun all you want, but it is the truth.
The "secret returnee" program is nothing but a myth promulgated by the MIA
cultists. If such "proof" exists, the folks who support this nonsense could
prove their case by revealing the "proof." Of course, they will argue that,
if the individual's identity were revealed, then he would be in danger from
the same non-existent conspirators who put him in the "secret returnee"
program.
But, consider this. Suppose such an individual does exist. Suppose his
existence were made public. That would cause such a stir in the media that
they guy would be perfectly safe.
Put it out for the world to see.
The origin of the "secret returnee" program is the mythology built up around
two Marines -- Fred Shcreckengost and Robert Greer. Their story became the
source of a huge mythology, all of which came crashing down when their
remains were recovered from Vietnam, where they had been buried by their
captors. See the article at http://www.miafacts.org/greer.htm
--
Regards,
Joe Schlatter
j...@schlatter.org
http://www.schlatter.org/
http://www.miafacts.org/
Amateur Radio Extra Class call sign W4HH
>
JKauff2017
>
> The origin of the "secret returnee" program
> is the mythology built up around two
> Marines -- Fred Shcreckengost and Robert
> Greer. Their story became the source of a
> huge mythology, all of which came crashing
> from Vietnam, where they had been buried
> by their captors.
Sure, Joe. Whatever. And those so-called remains had nothing to do with
Robert Greer as he stood at the Wall viewing his own name...AFTER his 'remains'
had been buried.
Good ole CILHI, still can't tell a Caucasian bone from an Oriental bone...or
are those more aircraft parts buried in Greer's coffin?
Whatever they are, they damn sure aren't Greer.
Edward Combs Jr.
A break-through! Post pictures or try to get Greer to post. If he was at
the wall then somebody was with him. Post an open letter with the whole
family signing off. Don't just call or even intimate that Joe Schlatter is a
liar....prove it.
.............................news:19990505174011...@ng-cl1.aol.com...
Joe Schlatter
I just did a name search on Yahoo for Robert Greer. Got 200 hits.
Which of those 200 Robert Greers stood at the Wall viewing his own name?
--
Regards,
Joe Schlatter
j...@schlatter.org
http://www.schlatter.org/
http://www.miafacts.org/
Amateur Radio Extra Class call sign W4HH
JKauff2017 wrote in message
<19990505174011...@ng-cl1.aol.com>...
Joe Schlatter
reassignment to Fort Bragg and had a port call. He picked up an advance
pay.
When he did not report to his new station, he was DFR. Later, his family
appealed through their Congressional representative and his status was
changed to missing. Frankly, doing so made sense. Bob Destatte and I
reviewed this case back in the late 1980s and we felt that Sabog --
stationed in Saigon, with a pocket full of cash and a couple of days before
his port call -- may well have been killed for his bankroll and his body
dumped.
In fact, he came back to the States, went over the hill, and lived in
California with a lady friend until moving to Georgia, where he surfaced
when he applied for Social Security. The story may be a bit strange but it's
that simple.
Yes, I know that someone claiming to be his niece has claimed that my
article about him at http://www.miafacts.org/aa.htm is not accurate. I have
asked that person several times to provide me with the facts to post but she
has never responded.
--
Regards,
Joe Schlatter
j...@schlatter.org
http://www.schlatter.org/
http://www.miafacts.org/
Amateur Radio Extra Class call sign W4HH
Edward Combs Jr. wrote in message <7gqtnr$p...@dfw-ixnews12.ix.netcom.com>...
>Mateo Sabog was on an aircraft ready to come home when he disappeared. I do
>think there is more to this case than meet the eye so why would he be
>brought in Black?
>********************************
>http://www.ipsystems.com/powmia/news96/pmdec96.html
>
>Canadian POW/MIA InformationCentre
>Concerned Caring Canadians
>Some Gave All -Some Still Give
>POW/MIA Information Centre
>[December 1996 ----Issue 12, Volume 2]
>
>Keep In Mind, As Long As We Care About ThePOW/MIAs,
>They Will Not Be Forgotten
>
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
>----
>POW/MIAs
>[By Richard Daly
>LZ Memories Newsletter
>November 1996 - Issue 0235]
>The "Sabog" case is important for many reasons.
>
>First of all, I am extremely pleased that another person on the MIA list
>turned up alive. I think it is wonderful that Mateo is reunited with his
>family, and that is most important.
>
>The case is important to other MIA families as well. It is possible another
>MIA might have fallen under the same circumstances, whatever those
>circumstances were. Many MIA family members are still waiting to find out
>what the true story was. We do know that Vietnam sent back remains that
they
>claimed were those of Mateo Sabog.
>
>Obviously, since Mateo is alive, the Vietnamese had no reason to believe he
>was dead, and committed a deliberate fraud in trying to pawn off the
remains
>as those of Sabog. Likewise, the U.S. government had previously claimed
they
>had no fingerprints on record for Sabog.
>
>Yet, there were reports (I have contacted the FBI and they have neither
>confirmed nor denied) that Sabog was identified by his fingerprints.
>*******************
>
>JKauff2017 <jkauf...@aol.com> wrote in message
>news:19990505202013...@ng-cl1.aol.com...
>> > From: "Edward Combs Jr."
>> > <edwc...@ix.netcom.com>
>> >
><snip>
>
>
Edward Combs Jr.
JKauff2017
> Greer to post. If he was at the wall then
> somebody was with him. Post an open letter
> with the whole family signing off. Don't just
> call or even intimate that Joe Schlatter is a
> liar....prove it.
It's already been done on this newsgroup, Ed.
Mateo Sabog (Korea & Vietnam combat vet) went missing in 1970 and just surfaced
in Georgia in 1995...AFTER the family was told Hanoi was returning his remains.
Karen Sabog, his niece, has posted on this newsgroup. Her most recent post was
telling Schlatter he lied.
Why Greer when Sabog was no different? Both were in the returnee program.
Only question that remains is: WHOSE remains are those identified as Greer and
Sabog?
JKauff2017
>
> Robert Greer stood at the Wall looking at
> his name.
>
> I just did a name search on Yahoo for
> Robert Greer. Got 200 hits.
>
> Which of those 200 Robert Greers stood at
> the Wall viewing his own name?
Good, Joe. How likely is it that an Internet Search Engine would find any name
involved in the government Witness Protection Program?
You need some R&R.
gru...@hotmail.com
"Joe Schlatter" <w4...@schlatter.org> wrote:
>
>
> gru...@hotmail.com wrote in message <7glkdg$4el$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
> >Jimi may get angry at me for writing this, but I can tell you for absolute
> >certainty that she has proof that at least one POW has returned secretly,
> and
> >he is not any that she has written about. This POW is still listed as dead
> >but was alive in the USA just a few years ago and probably still is. Mock
> >and make fun all you want, but it is the truth.
>
> The "secret returnee" program is nothing but a myth promulgated by the MIA
> cultists. If such "proof" exists, the folks who support this nonsense could
> prove their case by revealing the "proof." Of course, they will argue that,
> if the individual's identity were revealed, then he would be in danger from
> the same non-existent conspirators who put him in the "secret returnee"
> program.
>
> But, consider this. Suppose such an individual does exist. Suppose his
> existence were made public. That would cause such a stir in the media that
> they guy would be perfectly safe.
>
> Put it out for the world to see.
>
> two Marines -- Fred Shcreckengost and Robert Greer. Their story became the
> source of a huge mythology, all of which came crashing down when their
> remains were recovered from Vietnam, where they had been buried by their
> know
> >the truth, search for it. You will never find it on this ng.
> >
> >While checking out the Tailwind story, I accidently uncovered some other
> >information, which I will never reveal. Some of you out there know what I
> am
> >writing about - most of you won't. I really don't give a shit whether you
> do
> >or not.
> >
> >dino
Joe
No offense but I was writing about something beyond your knowledge. Jimi has
proof that a POW from the Vietnam war has returned to the USA and has
reunited with his family - secretly. The people involved play hardball. As
I wrote above, I accidently uncovered some information myself. For the
record - I will never reveal what I found out - I don't like it but I can't
stop it - nor am I willing. My family and my life is worth more that an
attempt to reveal information that would probably go nowhere. I can tell you
that those involved have more power that you may possibly imagine.
Certain US agencies did things that is beyond my comprehension. Mythology my
ass!
I have written before that Jimi has far more knowledge that what she reveals
on this ng. Knowledge is gained by trust. I explained this to Mr. Rau quite
some time ago. I also explained it to Lee. Jimi and I do not agree on every
subject, but we share information. Mr. Dall, Mr. Bylin, Mr. Benje, Ms.
Kauffman, have all sent me information at THEIR expense. I also do the same
for others. Bill, who claims these people are ripping people off is full of
shit.
dino
pat...@memes.com
wrote:
>In fact, he came back to the States, went over the hill, and lived in
>California with a lady friend until moving to Georgia, where he surfaced
>when he applied for Social Security. The story may be a bit strange but it's
>that simple.
I don't think that is strange at all, I couldn't even begin to count
the number of people I heard threatening to do the same thing. I did
my last two years at long beach as an MP and Brig Guard, we had to go
get lots of those people in the greater Los Angeles area.
Also, Karen Sabong has a web site, don't remember the url, but it
could easily be found using "uncle mateo" include the quotes.
JKauff2017
> come home when he disappeared. I do
> think there is more to this case than meet the
> eye so why would he be brought in Black?
>********************************
http://www.ipsystems.com/powmia/news
96/pmdec96.html
Why would any of them have been brought back in black ops?
Sabog had been processed out but was not on an aircraft when he disappeared.
After serving in Korea and Vietnam during his 25 years in the service, Sabog
had only a short time remaining before retiring from the U.S. Army.
The website you listed above contains the following factual information on what
happened with Sabog:
"A key government witness under the witness protection program admitted to the
Senate Select POW/MIA Committee, that he was instructed to provide false
information by an attorney from our Defense Intelligence Agency regarding
Garwood.
I called the ACLU right when Sabog showed up and asked that they appoint an
attorney for Sabog, since I was worried the government might hold him as long
as they could.
The ACLU said they couldn't appoint an attorney unless Mateo Sabog requested
one. I asked what if the Army grabbed Sabog and wouldn't let him call an
attorney. The ACLU said the Army "couldn't do that."
Well, they did it, and I think we all should be concerned when the government
doesn't comply with the law.
Just like the agencies refuse to provide MIA family members with documents as
required by law. No sense waiting around until your personal rights get
violated before speaking out."
Edward Combs Jr.
You fought the "Evil Empire" as well as "Communist Devils" (probably got
some medals for it[a CIB for sure]). Now you are afraid of an Agency of the
US(most Godly nation on earth...according to some anyway)government. Next
you will be telling us that JFK was killed by Johnson, the FBI and that
Greek guy that married Jackie.
Being from the South I am used to local government lies...in 1948 they found
a Black guy shot three times in the back of the head...suicide claimed the
sheriff.
But I think that getting information like the "secret return" into the hands
of the media would be the safest means of exposing the lies.
Look at W.W.II the OSS was able to bring at least 600 Nazis into the country
Black and provide them with papers. I'm sure other Agencies have done the
same(these people are called "Paper People" BTW). Without them we still
would not have a space program.
Although I am nosy and like to know everything, one more lie would not
though me off my feed(I believe very little of what the government tell me
anyway).
<gru...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:7gqun0$ppu$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> In article <taWX2.556$O3.1...@news12.ispnews.com>,
> "Joe Schlatter" <w4...@schlatter.org> wrote:
> >
> >
> > gru...@hotmail.com wrote in message
<7glkdg$4el$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
> > >Jimi may get angry at me for writing this, but I can tell you for
absolute
> > >certainty that she has proof that at least one POW has returned
secretly,
> > and
> > >he is not any that she has written about.
<snip>> > >
Edward Combs Jr.
No sense waiting around until your personal rights get
> violated before speaking out."
It does no good for people such as myself who don't know shit about the
subject to speak out! The people that claim they know about the subject
claim fear as the reason( and a reason that I can understand) they don't
speak out.
It seem that the chance of me learning more about this subject is nil.
***********************
JKauff2017
>
> Mateo Sabog was NOT on an airplane
> ready to come home. He had orders for
> reassignment to Fort Bragg and had a port
> call. He picked up an advance pay.
If you're so sure he wasn't on an airplane why does your website say, "I am not
certain if there was or was not evidence that he made his flight out of
Vietnam?" Which is it?
> When he did not report to his new station,
> he was DFR. Later, his family appealed
> through their Congressional representative
> and his status was changed to missing.
> Frankly, doing so made sense. Bob Destatte
> and I reviewed this case back in the late
> 1980s and we felt that Sabog -- stationed in
> Saigon, with a pocket full of cash and a
> couple of days before his port call -- may
> well have been killed for his bankroll and
> his body dumped.
>
> In fact, he came back to the States, went
> over the hill, and lived in California with a
> lady friend until moving to Georgia, where
> he surfaced when he applied for Social
> Security. The story may be a bit strange but
> its that simple.
What a crock.
Master Sergeant Mateo Sabog entered the Army in December 1945 serving in the
U.S., Japan, Europe, Korea and Hawaii. By February 1970 he had 24 years under
his belt, a flawless record and had just finished a tour of combat in Vietnam.
Yet Joe wants you to believe this MSG tossed it all aside AT THE END of 24
years to...'go over the hill.' At that point he had everything to loose and
nothing to gain, he was looking retirement in the eye.
Even the U.S. Army News Release, dated March 8, 1996 stated, "There was no
reason to believe that an individual who had 24 years of honorable service, was
retirement eligible and was returning FROM [emphasis as is] Vietnam would
desert from the military."
So much for Joe.
The Army had a hell of a time trying to get this toothpaste back in the tube.
In the March 8, 1996 news release Army spokesman, Colonel Don Maple announced,
"We are treating Master Sergeant Sabog like a long lost soldier returned."
However, the very next day they changed their minds and had Colonel Maple
announcing, "Sabog may be in trouble for deserting." The worm had turned.
For 26 years he'd been carried on the POW/MIA lists as MIA [Presumptive Finding
of Death] but once he surfaced the Army decided he had been a deserter.
[Don't you guys get it? If the Master, himself, returned the USG would label
him either a defector or deserter. Regardless.]
The Army then had a hell of a time 'attempting to determine MSG Sabog's legal
status.'
Legal status? His legal status was Master Sergeant, United States Army. His
illegal status was 'presumed dead.'
The Army also insisted this veteran who'd served in combat in both Korea and
Vietnam had no need for any medical benefits until 1996 when he was 73 years
old.
Sabog was slapped into a VA hospital in the blink of an eye and no one has seen
him since, other than close family members who aren't talking.
> Yes, I know that someone claiming to be his
> niece has claimed that my article about him
> at ************************** is not
> accurate. I have asked that person several
> times to provide me with the facts to post but
> she has never responded.
More B.S. I've read what Karen Sabog had written to you and there is no reason
for you to doubt that it's anyone other than Karen Sabog. Of course, you know
that also. You must have missed the point of her message in which she said you
were lying. Why would she want to pursue further communication with you
knowing you'd only skewer it on your bogus website?
Edward Combs Jr.
under "Karen Sabog " gives 111 Posts , 6 to alr.war.vietnam and 1 to
soc.history.war.vietnam. anyone can read them and make up their own
mind(they really don't say much more that you two do....just different). I
asked Dino to not say ANYTHING if he was not going to say anything. The same
goes for both of you. OF COURSE I KNOW THIS IS FREE COUNTRY(for most of
us)AND YOU THREE CAN SAY ANYTHING YOU WANT ANYTIME YOU WANT ANYWHERE YOU
WANT that is why I asked "If you are not going to say anything then why
waste bandwidth? You tow can fight BC"(forgive me...you two can also fight
here....or debate or argue or whatever it is you two do).
......................news:19990506025040...@ng-cq1.aol.com...
> >From: "Joe Schlatter" <w4...@3wave.com>
> >
<snip>
WarLib'yUK
JKauff2017 <jkauf...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19990506025040...@ng-cq1.aol.com...
> >From: "Joe Schlatter" <w4...@3wave.com>
> >
WarLib'yUK
recall an incident in 1966 - where two guys from our unit were headed back
to the States. We had a big celebration for them the evening before they
left for TanSonNhut to catch a 2 or 3 am flight.
The next day, one of our celebrants was missing. He turned up at Travis
the next day. It seems that he got somewhat intoxicated and got on the
plane with the two guys who were going home. He came back a couple of days
later.
So if someone who was not scheduled to be on an aircraft could get on, the
reverse could easily be true. After all it's the Government, no dark
mysterious conspiracies - just human screw ups.
Nigel Brooks
JKauff2017 <jkauf...@aol.com> wrote in message
WarLib'yUK
powerful - then why do they allow those of you who are supposedly in the
"know", to continue to post. Why haven't those agencies sent their black
helicopters to pick you both up and incarcerate you and all your loved ones
on the Island.
Or could it be that you both are members of those agencies, engaging in a
campaign to discount the rumours about the secret returnees, by making
pretending to be conspiracy theorists? The plot thickens.
Number 3
<gru...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:7gqun0$ppu$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> In article <taWX2.556$O3.1...@news12.ispnews.com>,
> "Joe Schlatter" <w4...@schlatter.org> wrote:
> >
> >
> > gru...@hotmail.com wrote in message
<7glkdg$4el$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
> > >Jimi may get angry at me for writing this, but I can tell you for
absolute
> > >certainty that she has proof that at least one POW has returned
secretly,
> > and
> stop it - nor am I willing. My family and my life is worth more that an
Steve Golding
>
> Mateo Sabog was NOT on an airplane ready to come home. He had orders for
> reassignment to Fort Bragg and had a port call. He picked up an advance
> pay.
>
> appealed through their Congressional representative and his status was
> changed to missing. Frankly, doing so made sense. Bob Destatte and I
> reviewed this case back in the late 1980s and we felt that Sabog --
> stationed in Saigon, with a pocket full of cash and a couple of days before
> his port call -- may well have been killed for his bankroll and his body
> dumped.
>
> In fact, he came back to the States, went over the hill, and lived in
> California with a lady friend until moving to Georgia, where he surfaced
> that simple.
>
> Yes, I know that someone claiming to be his niece has claimed that my
> asked that person several times to provide me with the facts to post but she
> has never responded.
>
> Regards,
> Joe Schlatter
Joe, that's not really accurate. Karen Sabog has replied several times
to you but your schedule probably precluded you from seeing each post.
I'll see if I can dig them up. (no pun intended)
Steve Golding
>
> Robert Greer stood at the Wall looking at his name.
>
> I just did a name search on Yahoo for Robert Greer. Got 200 hits.
>
> Which of those 200 Robert Greers stood at the Wall viewing his own name?
>
> Regards,
> Joe Schlatter
Is there a multiple choice answer or can anyone play?
Here's my answer: The one you are trying to obfuscate.
Why is it every time that the collar seems just alittle bit tighter
around your neck, instead of opening up a button, you go right to smoke
and mirrors, Joe?
Steve
Steve Golding
>
> If those agencies (nudge, nudge, wink, wink, say no more), are so all
> powerful - then why do they allow those of you who are supposedly in the
> "know", to continue to post. Why haven't those agencies sent their black
> helicopters to pick you both up and incarcerate you and all your loved ones
> on the Island.
>
> Or could it be that you both are members of those agencies, engaging in a
> campaign to discount the rumours about the secret returnees, by making
> pretending to be conspiracy theorists? The plot thickens.
>
> Number 3
>
Nigel, the truth is something that you can't face so you go into your
(nudge, nudge, wink, wink, say no more) mode.
Maybe one of the reasons why we are able to continue to post is because
of folks like you who do not demand answers, simply go along with the
program coz it don't effect you.
Maybe one of the reasons why we are able to post is because we are so
vocal, silencing us would do more damage than simply rediculing us.
But that doesn't explain phone taps, federal authorities barging in at
ones place of employment to demand background on the poster, or
interviewing neighbors, etc., in an attempt to paint the poster as nuts
or a danger to the community now does it?
You can black helicopter <wink, wink, smile> all the hell you want.
Perhaps when you stop being apathetic and start asking some hard
questions you will see a different side to your pals.
You have no reasonable explanation for Mateo Sabog and that bothers the
hell out of you. You cannot explain why someone with 24 years of
exemplary service would suddenly go "over the hill" at the end of his
career when all he had to do was report to Bragg and get his discharge.
You cannot black helicopter away when he got into a minor scrap with law
enforcement years after the fact and they checked on him, why DoD simply
came back with Mateo Sabog is MIA--and that seemed to end it there. (You
never thought to ask why would the cops not follow up on WHO this guy
was...or did they?)
And you cannot Number 3 away why it was that Sabog's case received
intense international scrutiny which was suddenly dropped while Sabog
underwent tests in a military hospital and was quietly (or is that
quieted?) discharged and not heard.
Joe wants to make it "that simple" but it sure ain't.
I'd say get your head outta your ass, but that's not the case here. It's
stuck so far up Joe's ass you can't see unless he clears passage by
passing gas....
pat...@memes.com
wrote:
I am not getting into this middle of a flame war, but do have a
comment about this paragraph.
>You have no reasonable explanation for Mateo Sabog and that bothers the
>hell out of you. You cannot explain why someone with 24 years of
>exemplary service would suddenly go "over the hill" at the end of his
>career when all he had to do was report to Bragg and get his discharge.
To make a 51 year odysey of my life very short, there are some
observations I have made by seeing and hearing as I went through the
years.
1. People get tired. Not the kind of tired you could ever describe
as malaise, run down feeling punky or need a nap. I am talking about
a tired right to the bone and consumes your soul.
It is times like that when you just turn off completely. No
explantions, no common sense, no regrets. Have you ever been that
tired?
After 18 months in Nam, I sure was and to this day I don't know what
made me report to my new duty station. One where I had orders to go
right back over with the 5th Marines. I just said no, no more and
really didn't give it a second thought at the time.
Luck had it that I stood my office hours and got transferred to Long
Beach, but if I hadn't been transferred, I was too tired to care
either way.
Mateo Sabong could easily have been that tired after all those years
and seeing a cluster fuck all around him. Maybe he just got tired! I
know that doesn't fit a whole lot of peoples perceptions of what that
means, but I sure as hell know what it means. And could easily see a
military, a judge advocate, a family and everyone else having a light
dawn on them saying to themselves, "He was tired".
2. The second comment is take a minute out of your life and visit a
Naval Brig. Lots of lifers in there that just one day decided to
chuck it all. Never complained, never explained. That is an absolute
fact, I have seen it with my own eyes.
I will let you all get back at it, but the two items I have stated are
not very far out or off the wall, these things went on, and will for
10,000 years, just ask the Great Mandella.
Herb F.
>If those agencies (nudge, nudge, wink,
>wink, say no more), are so all powerful -
>then why do they allow those of you who
>are supposedly in the "know", to continue
>to post.
Don't you watch the X-Files? Why do you think that secret cabal has
never killed Fox Mulder? They don't want to make him a martyr.
Why, if old Dino was found dead, the whole world would immediately know
that American POWs have been secretly relocated to a tropical isle. It
is just plain old-fashioned logic.
ted gittinger
Steve Golding <ste...@nyct.net> wrote in article
>
> I'd say get your head outta your ass, but that's not the case here. It's
> stuck so far up Joe's ass you can't see unless he clears passage by
> passing gas....
>
Nigel, old Swiftian, I'd say you struck a nerve.
Warm regards,
ted gittinger
WarLib'yUK
Steve Golding <ste...@nyct.net> wrote in message >
> Nigel, the truth is something that you can't face so you go into your
> (nudge, nudge, wink, wink, say no more) mode.
>
> Maybe one of the reasons why we are able to continue to post is >because
of folks like you who do not demand answers, simply go >along with the
program coz it don't effect you.
My dear Sir I don't need any answers - I am perfectly satisfied with the
explanations that my government has given, and the tremendous job it is
doing.
> Maybe one of the reasons why we are able to post is because we >are so
vocal, silencing us would do more damage than simply >rediculing us.
Silencing you would afford those families that have lost their loved
nes - peace. But people like you continue to open up and pick at the
wound.
> But that doesn't explain phone taps, federal authorities barging in at
> ones place of employment to demand background on the poster, or
> interviewing neighbors, etc., in an attempt to paint the poster as >nuts
or a danger to the community now does it?
Phone taps? What phone taps - do you have the faintest idea of what
authority the United States Government has to tap the phones of nutcases.
What would be the alleged predicate offense? Or do you claim that this
would be an extra judicial intercept.
>
> You can black helicopter <wink, wink, smile> all the hell you want.
> Perhaps when you stop being apathetic and start asking some >hard
questions you will see a different side to your pals.
So anyone you disagrees with you conspiracy theories is apathetic?
I don't need to ask any questions I perfectly satisfied with the answers
that have been given already.
> You have no reasonable explanation for Mateo Sabog and that >bothers the
hell out of you. You cannot explain why someone with 24 >years of exemplary
service would suddenly go "over the hill" at the >end of his career when
all he had to do was report to Bragg and get >his discharge.
It seems to me that the explanation is quite clear, but then again only Mr
Sabog can clear that up. Can you explain why someone who has been married
for 30 years, 17 years, or 25 years suddenly wakes up one day and leaves
the wife and kids on their own?
> You cannot black helicopter away when he got into a minor scrap >with law
enforcement years after the fact and they checked on him, >why DoD simply
came back with Mateo Sabog is MIA >and .that .seemed to end it there. (You
never thought to ask why >would the cops not follow up on WHO this guy
was...or did they?)
>
Sure I can
> And you cannot Number 3 away why it was that Sabog's case >received
intense international scrutiny which was suddenly dropped >while Sabog
underwent tests in a military hospital and was quietly >(or is that
quieted?) discharged and not heard.
Oh yes I can - have you even considered the fact the the explanation for
his disappearance is so simple that it was because of an affair of the
heart - or some mental defect - or he just said fuck it I want to start a
new life?
>
> Joe wants to make it "that simple" but it sure ain't.
>
> I'd say get your head outta your ass, but that's not the case here. It's
> stuck so far up Joe's ass you can't see unless he clears passage >by
passing gas....
Your characterisation of my head being up Mr. Schlatter's arse is not only
in poor taste, it is downright rude. But then again that is what I would
expect from conspiracy theorists such as yourself. What would you people
do if the government proved to you once and for all that you are wrong -
and you are you know.
Nigel Brooks
RJDES
wrote:
>
JS>> From: "Joe Schlatter" <w4...@3wave.com>
JS>>
JS>> The origin of the "secret returnee" program
JS>> is the mythology built up around two
JS>> Marines -- Fred Shcreckengost and Robert
JS>> Greer. Their story became the source of a
JS>> huge mythology, all of which came crashing
JS>> down when thei remains were recovered
JS>> from Vietnam, where they had been buried
JS>> by their captors.
JK>Sure, Joe. Whatever. And those so-called remains had nothing to do with
JK>Robert Greer as he stood at the Wall viewing his own name...AFTER his
JK>'remains' had been buried.
>
JK>Good ole CILHI, still can't tell a Caucasian bone from an Oriental bone...or
JK>are those more aircraft parts buried in Greer's coffin?
>
JK> Whatever they are, they damn sure aren't Greer.
Well, there you have it folks! From no less an authority than the reknowned
forensic expert Ms. Jimi Kauffman.
Very best regards,
Robert J. Destatte
Lee
Edward Combs Jr. <edwc...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:7gqtnr$p...@dfw-ixnews12.ix.netcom.com...
> Mateo Sabog was on an aircraft ready to come home when he
disappeared. I do
> think there is more to this case than meet the eye so why would he
be
> brought in Black?
Edward, I understood that he was last SEEN at the airport, but not
the flight he was suposed to have taken.
Anything new on that?
Someone claiming to be a relative of Mateo Sabog shows up
occasionally and yells at everyone who wants to find out anything
(anything factual, anyway) but refuses to tell the story. Claims it
would violate his privacy. Heck, I don't want his address and phone
number, I just want to know what he did between Saigon and his
"reappearance."
RJDES
wrote:
> If you're so sure he wasn't on an airplane why does your website
>say, "I am not certain if there was or was not evidence that he made
>his flight out of Vietnam?" Which is it?
As I recall there were multiple flights daily out of Tan Son Nhut and other air
bases in Vietnam. Is it possible that a person might miss the flight he or she
was scheduled to depart on, and yet make a later flight? Alternately, is it
possible that a person might arrive at the airport early and take advantage of
an opportunity to leave on a flight that departs earlier than the one he or she
was scheduled to depart on?
Is it possible that Ms. Kauffman is not making a serious effort to communicate?
Lee
JKauff2017 <jkauf...@aol.com>
> Legal status? His legal status was Master Sergeant, United States
Army. His
> illegal status was 'presumed dead.'
If he was still a MSgt in the US Army, why didn't he report to his
next duty station as ordered?
> The Army also insisted this veteran who'd served in combat in both
Korea and
> Vietnam had no need for any medical benefits until 1996 when he
was 73 years
> old.
If he didn't APPLY for them, then he either didn't want them or
didn't need them. All he had to do in the first place was complete
his term of enlistment and retire to a pension and medical care. So
where was he and what was he doing?
> Sabog was slapped into a VA hospital in the blink of an eye and no
one has seen
> him since, other than close family members who aren't talking.
If anything untoward was done to MSgt Sabog, you can bet the
relatives would be talking. The fact that a neice allegedly comes on
the net and complains is enough to show that no one has threatened
her life or whatever the conspiracy nuts might conjure up.
> that also. You must have missed the point of her message in which
she said you
> were lying. Why would she want to pursue further communication
with you
> knowing you'd only skewer it on your bogus website?
She claims Joe's site has lies about her uncle, but refuses to
provide the truth about his journey from Vietnam to Georgia.
"Because I said so" doesn't amount to much.
Edward Combs Jr.
one knows what happened between pay window and when he applied for SS in
Georgia(somebody knows they just don't it's anyone's business....but I think
it is the taxpayers business). I am sending the whole package to my Senator
to see he would be interested(he is new this term....it may give him an
entrée into something he wants, then again maybe not!).
.......................
Lee <gen...@tiac.net> wrote in message
news:7gt781$a...@news-central.tiac.net...
thereaper
why? Because your lives must be a small an miserable place to be.
It's always some deep dark fucking secret, that means it's just bullshit,
you should really see about getting a life, now a life is kinda like a shit
sandwich and someone forgot the bread, just try to find something tangible
with reality and get a grip on it, because reality is really far stranger
than the fantasies you live in, Sheeeeees, if ever there were people that
spark up the old bullshit meter it sure resides with you all.
Steve Golding wrote in message <3731B9...@nyct.net>...
>WarLib'yUK wrote:
>>
>> If those agencies (nudge, nudge, wink, wink, say no more), are so all
Lee
<pat...@memes.com> wrote in
> Mateo Sabong could easily have been that tired after all those
years
> and seeing a cluster fuck all around him. Maybe he just got
tired! I
> know that doesn't fit a whole lot of peoples perceptions of what
that
> means, but I sure as hell know what it means. And could easily
see a
> military, a judge advocate, a family and everyone else having a
light
> dawn on them saying to themselves, "He was tired".
I agree, that could very well have been what happened. It does
happen, and people just up and disappear. Later, if asked, they may
not even be sure why.
But it appears with all the Secret Squirrels involved in this
(believe me because I say so, I have secret knowledge) we'll never
know what the truth of it is.
Edward Combs Jr.
on.
...................
RJDES <rj...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19990506213241...@ng-fb1.aol.com...
> In article <19990506005144...@ng-cq1.aol.com> Ms. J. Kauffman
> wrote:
>
> ((snipped))
>
<snip>>
> Gentlemen and Gentlewomen of this news group,
>
> Here we have another illustration of how the activists' shamelessly and
> thoughtlessly intrude into the lives of complete strangers, try to impose
their
> distorted vision of reality on them, and try to suck them into public
debates
> about very private aspects of their lives.
*********************
As we only had two deserters in ten years of war in Vietnam and it looked
like Mr. Sabog might be number three anyone the least bit interested in the
War would be interest in Mr. Sabog.
*********************
>
> I respectfully suggest that we not allow Jimi and Steve and their
like-minded
> colleagues to make us unwitting partners in their exploitation of Master
> Sergeant Sabog and his family. Jimi and Steve and her colleagues
certainly
> are free to debate and debase each other if they wish, but we need not
descend
> to their level and participate.
>
> As I wrote in a previous posting, it is indisputable that Master Sergeant
Mateo
> Sabog (US Army, Retired) served this nation in uniform faithfully for more
than
> 20 years.
****************
What has this to do with a case of a 29 year disapearance?
...........................
The fact that he attained the rank of Master Sergeant (E-8) in an
> era when promotions were slow and hard-won suggests that he also served
this
> nation with distinction.
>
> US Army officials considered the full facts concerning his disappearance
and
> absence. They concluded it was proper to retire him honorably after he
> surfaced.
****************
Prior to that the US Army officials concluded he was dead!
What can one conclude from that?
*****************
The basic facts have been reported in the open press. The specific
> details are private matters for Master Sergeant Sabog and his family.
**************
That did not seem to be the case with Garwood. Of couse we cannot be sure
because we have more facts than we need on Garwood and none on Mr. Sabog.
***************
In my humble opinion there is no justification for us to criticize either
Master Sergeant Sabog or his family, nor to pry into their private lives.
***************
I really could care less about his or his faimilies private lives...it is
his very public 29 years absent from the Army that interest me( as a two
tour Nam vet and as a taxpayer).
*****************
>
> Had Jimi and Steve been born 400 years earlier, they might have
contributed to the search for truth by the French mathematician and
philosopher René Descartes
> (1596-1650). He is considered the father of analytic geometry. However,
he is
> perhaps more widely known for his efforts to devise a system of logic or
> reasoning based on the premise "I think, therefore I am." Philosophers
had
> long recognized that if an argument starts from a premise that is true,
then
> proceeds with sound and valid logic to a conclusion, the conclusion will
> necessarily be true -- sound, valid logic will ensure that the conclusion
will
> derive its truth from the truth of the premise.
>
> Decartes attempted to find a premise that was self-evidently true. A
premise
> that was true in and of itself, that required no supporting evidence to
> establish its truth. He believed he had found such a premise in the
statement
> "I think, therefore I am." He believed it was self-evident that one could
not
> think, if one did not exist. The act of thinking proves the truth of the
> proposition that one exists....
>
> Well, subsequent philosophers have poked holes in Descartes' proposition
that
> the premise "I think, therefore I am" is self-evidently true.
*******************
He also went insane because because he could not determine if the "still
voice he heard was from God or the Devil". Also some pious man said(German ,
I think) said that "Reason was the handmaden of the Devil".
********************
>
> After reading nearly two years of postings by Jimi and Steve, I find
myself
> wondering how Decartes might have reformulated his premise around the
> self-evident truths about their articles.
gru...@hotmail.com
ste...@nyct.net wrote:
> Joe, that's not really accurate. Karen Sabog has replied several times
> to you but your schedule probably precluded you from seeing each post.
> I'll see if I can dig them up. (no pun intended)
>
RJDES
wrote:
((snipped))
JK>I called the ACLU right when Sabog showed up and asked that they appoint an
JK>attorney for Sabog, since I was worried the government might hold him as
long
JK>as they could.
>
JK>The ACLU said they couldn't appoint an attorney unless Mateo Sabog requested
JK>one. I asked what if the Army grabbed Sabog and wouldn't let him call an
JK>attorney. The ACLU said the Army "couldn't do that."
>
((snipped))
Gentlemen and Gentlewomen of this news group,
Here we have another illustration of how the activists' shamelessly and
thoughtlessly intrude into the lives of complete strangers, try to impose their
distorted vision of reality on them, and try to suck them into public debates
about very private aspects of their lives.
I respectfully suggest that we not allow Jimi and Steve and their like-minded
colleagues to make us unwitting partners in their exploitation of Master
Sergeant Sabog and his family. Jimi and Steve and her colleagues certainly
are free to debate and debase each other if they wish, but we need not descend
to their level and participate.
As I wrote in a previous posting, it is indisputable that Master Sergeant Mateo
Sabog (US Army, Retired) served this nation in uniform faithfully for more than
20 years. The fact that he attained the rank of Master Sergeant (E-8) in an
era when promotions were slow and hard-won suggests that he also served this
nation with distinction.
US Army officials considered the full facts concerning his disappearance and
absence. They concluded it was proper to retire him honorably after he
surfaced. The basic facts have been reported in the open press. The specific
details are private matters for Master Sergeant Sabog and his family. In my
humble opinion there is no justification for us to criticize either Master
Sergeant Sabog or his family, nor to pry into their private lives.
Had Jimi and Steve been born 400 years earlier, they might have contributed to
the search for truth by the French mathematician and philosopher René Descartes
(1596-1650). He is considered the father of analytic geometry. However, he is
perhaps more widely known for his efforts to devise a system of logic or
reasoning based on the premise "I think, therefore I am." Philosophers had
long recognized that if an argument starts from a premise that is true, then
proceeds with sound and valid logic to a conclusion, the conclusion will
necessarily be true -- sound, valid logic will ensure that the conclusion will
derive its truth from the truth of the premise.
Decartes attempted to find a premise that was self-evidently true. A premise
that was true in and of itself, that required no supporting evidence to
establish its truth. He believed he had found such a premise in the statement
"I think, therefore I am." He believed it was self-evident that one could not
think, if one did not exist. The act of thinking proves the truth of the
proposition that one exists....
Well, subsequent philosophers have poked holes in Descartes' proposition that
the premise "I think, therefore I am" is self-evidently true.
After reading nearly two years of postings by Jimi and Steve, I find myself
gru...@hotmail.com
professor become disjointed with hysterical laughter. On the way to he
hospital he would have said, "I hurt, therefore I am."
dino
In article <19990506213241...@ng-fb1.aol.com>,
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
JKauff2017
> Newsgroups: alt.war.vietnam
>
> Gentlemen and Gentlewomen of this news
> group,
>
> Here we have another illustration of how
> the activists' shamelessly and thoughtlessly
> intrude into the lives of complete strangers,
> try to impose their distorted vision of reality
> on them, and try to suck them into public
> debates about very private aspects of their
> lives.
>
> I respectfully suggest that we not allow Jimi
> and Steve and their like-minded
> colleagues to make us unwitting partners in
> their exploitation of Master Sergeant Sabog
> and his family. Jimi and Steve and her
> colleagues certainly are free to debate and
> debase each other if they wish, but we need
> not descend to their level and participate.
The activists aren't the ones who declared Mateo Sabog dead...that's your area
of expertise, Bob.
Nor were the activists the ones who informed the Sabog family that his remains
were being returned from Hanoi...a year BEFORE he surfaced A-L-I-V-E.
Pompous does not serve you well.
JKauff2017
Your response has nothing to do with my comment.
Joe has posted on his website: "I am not certain if there was or was not
evidence that he (Sabog) made his flight out of Vietnam."
Of course, you failed to post Joe's statement which was the reason for my
comment. He had posted here that Sabog had NOT boarded the aircraft.
So, you see, it had nothing to do with me not making a serious effort to
communicate but, rather, your usual dull efforts at obfuscation.
JKauff2017
> JKauff2017 <jkauf...@aol.com>
> Legal status? His legal status was Master
> Sergeant, United States Army. His
> illegal status was 'presumed dead.'
>
> If he was still a MSgt in the US Army, why
> didn't he report to his next duty station as
> ordered?
Why do you think?
JKauff2017
>
> Well, there you have it folks! From no less
> an authority than the reknowned
> forensic expert Ms. Jimi Kauffman.
At least I'm not the one responsible for declaring 8 men dead based on the
'evidence' from a FRAGMENT OF ONE TOOTH.
Nor am I the one responsible for all those EMPTY coffins in Arlington.
I am also not the one who declared Mateo Sabog dead and informed his family
Hanoi was returning his remains...only to have him appear LIVE in George three
years ago.
JKauff2017
> <nbroo...@email.msn.com>
>
> Silencing you would afford those families
> people like you continue to open up and
> pick at the wound.
Steve is one of 'those families that have lost their loved one.'
> Oh yes I can - have you even considered
> the fact the the explanation for his
> disappearance is so simple that it was
> because of an affair of the heart - or some
> mental defect - or he just said fuck it I want
> to start a new life?
But then again, maybe not.
> Your characterisation of my head being up
> Mr. Schlatter's arse is not only in poor taste,
> it is downright rude.
Gasp, gasp. A first for this newsgroup.
WarLib'yUK
Nigel Brooks
JKauff2017 <jkauf...@aol.com> wrote in message
JKauff2017
>
> Yes, I know that someone claiming to be his
> niece has claimed that my article about him
> provide me with the facts to post but she
> has never responded.
Here are the posts from SHWV:
Mr. Schlatter,
> In article 98shw...@panix3.panix.com,
> Joe Schlatter wrote:
> .. In accordance with this policy, the Sabog
> family was notified that remains, WHICH
> THE VIETNAMESE STATED MAY BE
> SABOG, had been recovered and were
> undergoing identification. At no time were
> these remains identified as Sabog. In fact,
> when the CIL started working to identify
> the remains, it became clear that they WERE
> NOT SABOG and the family was so
> notified.
>
> For a dose of facts, I recommend that folks
> read the section about Sabog on this page:
> **********************
Karen Sabog's response:
My family *NEVER* received any official
confirmation or even a follow-up that the
remains *DID NOT* belong to my Uncle
Mateo. Of course, this was very obvious
when he turned up alive three years ago.
Who is your source? You referred to an
email message from an individual in the DC
area who has access to information.
Please forward this to me with full Internet
mail headers displayed. Send this to me
privately if you prefer.
In your attempt to set out the facts, you chose
a very flawed press release from the
Associated Press to regurgitate on your Web
site.
When and if my family or I have any public
comments to make, I will post it on my Web
site. Respecting my uncle's right to
privacy is my current priority.
Karen
~~~~~
William Langston
other explanations too that are not spooky at all.
Semper Fi, Bill Langston.
<pat...@memes.com> wrote in message
news:3731d133....@news.memes.com...
> On Thu, 6 May 1999 15:48:35 GMT, Steve Golding <ste...@nyct.net>
> wrote:
>
> I am not getting into this middle of a flame war, but do have a
> comment about this paragraph.
>
> >You have no reasonable explanation for Mateo Sabog and that bothers the
> >hell out of you. You cannot explain why someone with 24 years of
> >exemplary service would suddenly go "over the hill" at the end of his
> >career when all he had to do was report to Bragg and get his discharge.
>
> To make a 51 year odysey of my life very short, there are some
> observations I have made by seeing and hearing as I went through the
> years.
>
> 1. People get tired. Not the kind of tired you could ever describe
> as malaise, run down feeling punky or need a nap. I am talking about
> a tired right to the bone and consumes your soul.
>
> It is times like that when you just turn off completely. No
> explantions, no common sense, no regrets. Have you ever been that
> tired?
>
> After 18 months in Nam, I sure was and to this day I don't know what
> made me report to my new duty station. One where I had orders to go
> right back over with the 5th Marines. I just said no, no more and
> really didn't give it a second thought at the time.
>
> Luck had it that I stood my office hours and got transferred to Long
> Beach, but if I hadn't been transferred, I was too tired to care
> either way.
>
> Mateo Sabong could easily have been that tired after all those years
> and seeing a cluster fuck all around him. Maybe he just got tired! I
> know that doesn't fit a whole lot of peoples perceptions of what that
> means, but I sure as hell know what it means. And could easily see a
> military, a judge advocate, a family and everyone else having a light
> dawn on them saying to themselves, "He was tired".
>
William Langston
does it. <G>
Semper Fi, Bill Langston.
P.S. I tried to find the key combination that would cause the phosphors
inside my monitor to glow in that secret frequency that only you guys with
the special 'polarized lenses' could read it but, hell, I forget the key
code!
ted gittinger <te...@redbud.lbjlib.utexas.edu> wrote in message
news:01be97e8$6f7fb5c0$174e...@dos13.lbjlib.utexas.edu...
>
>
> Steve Golding <ste...@nyct.net> wrote in article
> >
> > I'd say get your head outta your ass, but that's not the case here. It's
> > stuck so far up Joe's ass you can't see unless he clears passage by
> > passing gas....
> >
HOLLIS6475
>As we only had two deserters in ten years of war in Vietnam
I think there was more. Met a guy who deserted and was caught in Saigon. I
think desertion is being AOL over 30 days. He was in OKI waiting for his case
to be heard.
Ciao
Hollis
Edward Combs Jr.
it. I just think he return SHOULD have been covered at least as much as
Garwood's.
..................
William Langston <l...@iosa.com> wrote in message
news:7guqrm$4fn$1...@remarQ.com...
> Pat, I'll also add that the guy could have also had a mild stroke. There
are
> other explanations too that are not spooky at all.
>
> Semper Fi, Bill Langston.
>
<snip>
Joe Schlatter
family that his remains were being returned. Not exactly true.
DoD policy is that ANY INFORMATION THAT DOES OR MAY PERTAIN to a missing man
is passed to his family.
In many cases, when the Vietnamese return remains, they "identify" the
remains by telling us that the remains in this box are ABC. The family is
told of the Vietnamese claim but they are cautioned that this is NOT an
identification and that they should wait until the identification process is
complete. In many cases the Vietnamese claim is wrong. In some cases they
will say "Captain A is in this box and Lieutenant B is in this box" -- then
we find that just the opposite is true -- or that the remains are neither A
nor B, but other people entirely. However, if the Vietnamese hand over
remains and put a name on the remains, the family must be informed
immediately -- with the appropriate cautions.
US researchers were working with the Vietnamese on the Sabog case, some time
before he popped up in Georgia. The Vietnamese showed the team a grave that
they said may contain Sabog's remains. Remains were excavated and sent to
CILHI for identification. At first look, it was clear these were not
Sabog's remains (I do not know the outcome of the identification but the
remains may have been Southeast Asian Mongoloid; I just do not know the
final outcome.)
Meanwhile, the family had been told that the Vietnamese had said these
remains may be his but that the remains were not identified by the US. When
it was determined that the remains were not Sabog, the family was
immediately told of the fact .
So, is Ms. Kauffman's claim accurate? Somewhat -- the family was not
informed that his remains were being returned. They were informed that
remains that the Vietnamese said were his were being returned. There is a
real difference.
http://www.miafacts.org/aa.htm
http://www.miafacts.org/identifi.htm
As to the claim of 8 men being declared dead on the evidence of one tooth,
not exactly. The reference here is to the loss of Baron 52, an EC-47Q
aircraft. The identification was based on the totality of evidence,
including evidence from a search of the site following the shootdown and
evidence accumulated during the excavation -- such as metal rings from all
the parachutes on the aircraft and personal items belonging to all the
crewmembers.
http://www.miafacts.org/baron52.htm
--
Regards,
Joe Schlatter
j...@schlatter.org
http://www.schlatter.org/
http://www.miafacts.org/
Amateur Radio Extra Class call sign W4HH
JKauff2017 wrote in message
<19990507084059...@ng-fe1.aol.com>...
Lee
JKauff2017 <jkauf...@aol.com> wrote
>L> If he was still a MSgt in the US Army, why
>L> didn't he report to his next duty station as
>L> ordered?
>
> Why do you think?
I really don't know. Do you? I'm very curious about it, but haven't
heard much that was logical about the missing years.
Joe Schlatter
JKauff2017 wrote in message
<19990507205042...@ng-fe1.aol.com>...
>> From: "Joe Schlatter" <w4...@3wave.com>
>>
>> One of the many myths surrounding the
>> Sabog story is that the USG told his
>> family that his remains were being returned.
>> Not exactly true.
>
>Exactly true. That's why Karen Sabog responded to your post on SHWV:
>
>"My family *NEVER* received any official confirmation or even a follow-up
that
>the remains *DID NOT* belong to my Uncle Mateo. Of course, this was very
>obvious when he turned up alive three years ago."
>
>The Sabog story is no myth. Mateo Sabog was carried on the DIA POW/MIA
list
>for 26 years. In 1995 his family was told Hanoi was returning his remains.
In
>1996 he surfaces in Georgia...ALIVE.
>
>> DoD policy is that ANY INFORMATION
>> THAT DOES OR MAY PERTAIN to a
>> missing man is passed to his family.
>
>Pure myth. The FACT that POW/MIA family members are NOT ALLOWED to have
>information has been a major reason for the ongoing conflict with DIA.
As Chief of the DIA POW-MIA Office, my daily routine was to close my office
door around 5:00 p.m. and read and sign all the letters that were going to
the military service casualty offices, forwarding information to families.
Damn, I must have been dreaming.
>
>The best excuse the DIA's come up with for not allowing family members to
have
>information on their loved ones is, "It would violate the privacy of the
POW."
Hummm. Then, i wonder why, under Prez Bush's executive order, the
individual files of missing men were to be placed in the Library of Congress
collection, for public access -- unless the family requested that files not
be made public. The claim that a family was denied information because the
missing man's privacy would be violated is absurd.
>
>If the POW is dead, as DIA claims they all are, then how could giving
families
>information violate the privacy of a dead man?
It does not violate any privacy. That's why they are given the information.
>
>> In many cases, when the Vietnamese return
>> remains, they "identify" the remains by
>> telling us that the remains in this box are
>> ABC. The family is told of the Vietnamese
>> claim but they are cautioned that this is NOT
>> an identification and that they should wait
>> until the identification process is complete.
>> In many cases the Vietnamese claim is
>> wrong. In some cases they will say
>> "Captain A is in this box and remains and put
>> a name on the remains, the family must be
>> informed immediately -- with the
>> appropriate cautions.
>
>Nothing could be further from the truth. Joe, you sound more and more like
>your friend Bill Clinton.
>
>The families are N-O-T "being told of the Vietnamese claim but are
cautioned
>that this is NOT an identification and should wait until the
identification
>process is complete." Baloney.
>
>Truth is, the families are told that the remains ARE of their particular
loved
>one. Of the numerous families who have then sent the remains to
independent
>forensic pathologists for a second evaluation the remains have proven NOT
to be
>their loved one.
>
>In fact, Dr. Charney, Colorado State University, Ft. Collins, was involved
in
>identifing remains for families for years. He said publicly that the VAST
>MAJORITY of so-called remains were either Oriental or animal bones and, in
some
>cases, were even aircraft parts passed off as human remains...that's AFTER
the
>Army I.D. Lab in Hawaii had identified them as a particular American
>serviceman.
Nonsense. The Vietnamese returned the remains of two men who were lost in
the same aircraft; remains were mingled. CILHI separated the bones that
could bve separated then proposed that those that could not be separated be
buried as mingled remains. Charney claimed that he could separate the
remains so they were shipped to him. He separated the remains all right --
one skeleton had two collarbones, one had enough finger bones to make up 2.5
hands, the other had extra leg bones. Is this the Charney to whom you
refer?
>
>> The Vietnamese showed the team a grave
>> that they said may contain Sabog's remains.
>> Remains were excavated and sent to
>> CILHI for identification. At first look, it was
>> clear these were not Sabog's remains...
>
>Then the Sabog family should not have been informed that those remains WERE
>Mateo Sabog.
Under DoD policy, they would have been informed OF WHAT THE VIETNAMESE SAID,
not that the remains were Sabog. No one is informed that remains are anyone
until the ID process is complete.
>
>> (I do not know the outcome of the
>> identification but the remains may have
>> been Southeast Asian Mongoloid; I just do
>> not know the final outcome.)
>
>Of course you know the outcome...
Jimi: is English your native language? Read my statement. I do not know
the outcome of the identification of the remains. The remains -- which the
Vietnamese stated may have been Sabog -- either were or were not identified
as someone else. I do not know the outcome of that process.
Mateo Sabog turned up ALIVE after being
>declared dead long before his family was told his remains were being
returned.
>
>> Meanwhile, the family had been told that the
>> Vietnamese had said these remains may be
>> his but that the remains were not identified
>> by the US. When it was determined that the
>> remains were not Sabog, the family was
>> immediately told of the fact.
>
>Nothing could be further from the truth.
>
>> So, is Ms. Kauffman's claim accurate?
>> Somewhat -- the family was not informed that
>> his remains were being returned. They
>> were informed that remains that the
>> Vietnamese said were his were being
>> returned. There is a real difference.
>
>The question is...is Mr. Schlatter's claim accurate? About as accurate as
his
>informing some members of this newsgroup via back channel communication
that I
>had had an affair with Bob Destatte at one time.
What are you smoking?
>
>PLEASE. Mr. Schlatter's claims are pure B.S. (Notice he didn't mind
screwing
>his 'friend' Bob Destatte in the process of lying either. Pun intended.)
>
>
JKauff2017
>
> One of the many myths surrounding the
> Sabog story is that the USG told his
> family that his remains were being returned.
> Not exactly true.
Exactly true. That's why Karen Sabog responded to your post on SHWV:
"My family *NEVER* received any official confirmation or even a follow-up that
the remains *DID NOT* belong to my Uncle Mateo. Of course, this was very
obvious when he turned up alive three years ago."
The Sabog story is no myth. Mateo Sabog was carried on the DIA POW/MIA list
for 26 years. In 1995 his family was told Hanoi was returning his remains. In
1996 he surfaces in Georgia...ALIVE.
> DoD policy is that ANY INFORMATION
> THAT DOES OR MAY PERTAIN to a
> missing man is passed to his family.
Pure myth. The FACT that POW/MIA family members are NOT ALLOWED to have
information has been a major reason for the ongoing conflict with DIA.
The best excuse the DIA's come up with for not allowing family members to have
information on their loved ones is, "It would violate the privacy of the POW."
If the POW is dead, as DIA claims they all are, then how could giving families
information violate the privacy of a dead man?
> In many cases, when the Vietnamese return
> The Vietnamese showed the team a grave
> that they said may contain Sabog's remains.
> Remains were excavated and sent to
> CILHI for identification. At first look, it was
> clear these were not Sabog's remains...
Then the Sabog family should not have been informed that those remains WERE
Mateo Sabog.
> (I do not know the outcome of the
> identification but the remains may have
> been Southeast Asian Mongoloid; I just do
> not know the final outcome.)
Of course you know the outcome...Mateo Sabog turned up ALIVE after being
declared dead long before his family was told his remains were being returned.
> Meanwhile, the family had been told that the
> Vietnamese had said these remains may be
> his but that the remains were not identified
> by the US. When it was determined that the
> remains were not Sabog, the family was
> immediately told of the fact.
Nothing could be further from the truth.
> So, is Ms. Kauffman's claim accurate?
> Somewhat -- the family was not informed that
> his remains were being returned. They
> were informed that remains that the
> Vietnamese said were his were being
> returned. There is a real difference.
The question is...is Mr. Schlatter's claim accurate? About as accurate as his
informing some members of this newsgroup via back channel communication that I
had had an affair with Bob Destatte at one time.
PLEASE. Mr. Schlatter's claims are pure B.S. (Notice he didn't mind screwing
gru...@hotmail.com
discourses about the possibility of American POWs being left behind in SEA!
Can anyone else give me a better explanation why a certain ex-DIA officer has
devoted many web pages to Garwood? Does this retired officer spend all this
effort just because Garwood "went over"?
dino
In article <7gv3a0$5...@sjx-ixn1.ix.netcom.com>,
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
gru...@hotmail.com
from "Family" members, I would not make any judgements until I had heard what
the family had to say on this matter. "Family" members, according to what
they have told me, have been routinely lied to over a period of decades.
As I have written before, if you really want to know the truth, get as close
to the source as possible. As you all know, I don't believe everything that
I read, that is why I have done my own research. My advice is not to believe
Jimi nor Joe wholesale, but get down in the mud and search. If I can find
it - so can you.
dino
In article <aPJY2.497$G3....@news3.ispnews.com>,
"Joe Schlatter" <w4...@schlatter.org> wrote:
> One of the many myths surrounding the Sabog story is that the USG told his
> family that his remains were being returned. Not exactly true.
>
> DoD policy is that ANY INFORMATION THAT DOES OR MAY PERTAIN to a missing man
> is passed to his family.
>
> In many cases, when the Vietnamese return remains, they "identify" the
> remains by telling us that the remains in this box are ABC. The family is
> told of the Vietnamese claim but they are cautioned that this is NOT an
> identification and that they should wait until the identification process is
> complete. In many cases the Vietnamese claim is wrong. In some cases they
> will say "Captain A is in this box and Lieutenant B is in this box" -- then
> we find that just the opposite is true -- or that the remains are neither A
> nor B, but other people entirely. However, if the Vietnamese hand over
> remains and put a name on the remains, the family must be informed
> immediately -- with the appropriate cautions.
>
> US researchers were working with the Vietnamese on the Sabog case, some time
> before he popped up in Georgia. The Vietnamese showed the team a grave that
> they said may contain Sabog's remains. Remains were excavated and sent to
> CILHI for identification. At first look, it was clear these were not
> Sabog's remains (I do not know the outcome of the identification but the
> remains may have been Southeast Asian Mongoloid; I just do not know the
> final outcome.)
>
> Meanwhile, the family had been told that the Vietnamese had said these
> remains may be his but that the remains were not identified by the US. When
> it was determined that the remains were not Sabog, the family was
> immediately told of the fact .
>
> So, is Ms. Kauffman's claim accurate? Somewhat -- the family was not
> informed that his remains were being returned. They were informed that
> remains that the Vietnamese said were his were being returned. There is a
> real difference.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
Joe Schlatter
>He wasn't covered because he hasn't been around the country making public
>discourses about the possibility of American POWs being left behind in SEA!
>Can anyone else give me a better explanation why a certain ex-DIA officer
has
>devoted many web pages to Garwood? Does this retired officer spend all
this
>effort just because Garwood "went over"?
>
>dino
I think it's because this "retired officer" has a death wish and just loves
receiving flames and hate mail from people who kiss Garwood's ass.
pat...@memes.com
wrote:
I have read most of your site on the issue of Garwood. What strikes
me as strange comming from my perspective is the climate that was
pervalent during his initial disapearance.
DaNang was something else about that time. Arvn forces, vietcong,
buddists, catholics were all fighting amongst each other. In addition
to that, everyone was armed to the teeth, including the Marines who
were literally right smack in the middle.
It put whole new meaning to the phrase Mexican standoff. What I can't
figure out is how this lowly enlisted man was allowed outside the
perimeter without the buddy system in place. In addition, if one
person would have been outside that wire after curfew, the whole of I
Corps would have and should have been looking for him the minute the
sun went down. This obviously didn't happen and shocks me no end
considering that particular time frame.
This whole story doesn't say much for his immediate chain of command.
That area was estimated 75% vietcong or sympathetic to them, the
buddists hated us and wanted us gone, the S. Vietnamese Army routinely
fired in our direction to test our balls, and in general the whole
situation was very tense indeedy.
WarLib'yUK
Nigel Brooks
<gru...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:7h2sf4$he2
> So you do admit that he does have supporters?
>
> Just for the record I don't like or dislike him. I would be more
>interested in what he is rather that what he was.
>
> dino
gru...@hotmail.com
"Joe Schlatter" <w4...@schlatter.org> wrote:
> gru...@hotmail.com wrote in message <7h1f7f$eq0$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
> >He wasn't covered because he hasn't been around the country making public
> >discourses about the possibility of American POWs being left behind in SEA!
> >Can anyone else give me a better explanation why a certain ex-DIA officer
> has
> >devoted many web pages to Garwood? Does this retired officer spend all
> this
> >effort just because Garwood "went over"?
> >
> >dino
>
> receiving flames and hate mail from people who kiss Garwood's ass.
>
> Regards,
> Joe Schlatter
So you do admit that he does have supporters?
Just for the record I don't like or dislike him. I would be more interested
in what he is rather that what he was.
dino
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
gru...@hotmail.com
dino
In article <373b5cdc....@news.memes.com>,
pat...@memes.com wrote:
> On Sat, 8 May 1999 10:36:03 -0400, "Joe Schlatter" <w4...@3wave.com>
> wrote:
>
> I have read most of your site on the issue of Garwood. What strikes
> me as strange comming from my perspective is the climate that was
> pervalent during his initial disapearance.
>
> DaNang was something else about that time. Arvn forces, vietcong,
> buddists, catholics were all fighting amongst each other. In addition
> to that, everyone was armed to the teeth, including the Marines who
> were literally right smack in the middle.
>
> It put whole new meaning to the phrase Mexican standoff. What I can't
> figure out is how this lowly enlisted man was allowed outside the
> perimeter without the buddy system in place. In addition, if one
> person would have been outside that wire after curfew, the whole of I
> Corps would have and should have been looking for him the minute the
> sun went down. This obviously didn't happen and shocks me no end
> considering that particular time frame.
>
> This whole story doesn't say much for his immediate chain of command.
> That area was estimated 75% vietcong or sympathetic to them, the
> buddists hated us and wanted us gone, the S. Vietnamese Army routinely
> fired in our direction to test our balls, and in general the whole
> situation was very tense indeedy.
>
> >I think it's because this "retired officer" has a death wish and just loves
> >receiving flames and hate mail from people who kiss Garwood's ass.
>
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------